Its fun to be back at work!!!

[darkeyes]

Today I had a difference of opinion with my boss! The reason? Whether a girl in one of my classes was suitably attired for school attendance.. the crime.. one black skirt as per regulation which was considered not long enough. The length? 12cms above the knee the girl said... school wanted it measured and claimed it was 18 at best. No one would measure it...Fran asked who wants done for assault? That cooled them down... The judgement? Guilty as charged go home and put on something decent. The result? One locally very well known, influential and loaded extremely upset parent ranting about the Rector's old fashioned paranoid attitude to the school dress code, which I may add says nothing about length of skirts.. only specifying the type which must be worn.. black.. The result? Discharged on appeal..

I did warn her....

I got home and told Kate and what does she rake up for me... this...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/aug/23/school-skirt-ban-uniform

What fucking times we live in... look at the uniform for the nob girls in the pic btw.. cool huh? An if u took a butchers at the girls uniforms where I work... talk about sexless frumpery??? But they are very clever girls... not much sexless frumpery by the time they get their imaginations going I am glad to say.. amazing what they can do with frumpy kit... some things never change I am glad to say...:)

[Jobelorocks]

I use to have to wear uniforms at one of my schools and I hated it with a firey hot passion. It does not allow students to express themselves at all and hinders creativity. Plus I have heard many people say that it cuts down on teasing, but it doesn't. Even after my school changed over to uniforms the girls started teasing one another for what socks or hair accessories they wore or even if their part was straight. Overall I think that uniforms are a horrible thing.

[Darkside2009]

No, the schoolgirls shown in your picture did not look sexy, but I don't think that is the purpose of school uniform.

If the girls are competing with each other as to who might look sexiest it can only distract their attention from their lessons.

As schools act in loco-parentis, it can only help schoolchildren in providing some protection from the attentions of paedophiles on their way to and from school. If a child in school uniform is seen in the company of an adult, outside that school's known catchment area, it may indicate that something is amiss and warrant a question or two from a concerned adult.

I think there is an inordinate amount of pressure from the advertising industry to sexualise children at a continuously younger age. As was mentioned before in a previous thread, Marks and Spencer in the UK was forced to withdraw padded bras for very young girls. Others had been forced to withdraw underwear emblazoned with explicit sexual slogans.

Unfortunately the music industry seems complicit in this early sexualisation, with singers such as Brittany Spears, and the Girls Aloud group in the UK both dressing in sexual provocative attire, mimicking school uniforms, in videos to promote their music.

Teenagers are impressionable, they still need our protection from unscrupulous people who would try to exploit their insecurities for their own vested interests.

Children are children for such a very short space of their lives. There will be time enough for them to worry about jobs, bills and looking sexual attractive later in life.

[Realist]

I had to wear uniforms in school....... it ain't hurt my edecation, none!

Those girls look as if they're prepping to become the next Mrs Thatcher!

[Hephaestion]

Mybe it's a subtle move towards reinstating the sexy hidden ankle or perhaps it's part of a move towards the Burqua (Spillong?)

However, whatever they're wearing a discreet 'show us yer knickers' or even 'show us yer knockers' always seemed to work in the past.

[darkeyes]

I use to have to wear uniforms at one of my schools and I hated it with a firey hot passion. It does not allow students to express themselves at all and hinders creativity. Plus I have heard many people say that it cuts down on teasing, but it doesn't. Even after my school changed over to uniforms the girls started teasing one another for what socks or hair accessories they wore or even if their part was straight. Overall I think that uniforms are a horrible thing.

You and the luffly Sam would get on great.. her life is spent devoted 2 freedom of expression.. have heard her say things like that too many times 2
count..and it does have resonance with me. But I'm not opposed to school uniforms.. do see the point to them but also see ur point about free expression. I wore a uniform all me school life and pushed what I could do with it from the day I first had a naughty thought... and girls now do just the same.. good for them.. uniforms can suppress free expression but in some ways for some girls, the very challenge of their sameness allows them to devise ways which actually improves and strengthens that expression.. it certainly didnt stifle mine.. it also helped me pull a helluva lotta guys..:tong: which brings me on to...

.. Dark having one thing all wrong.. about the sexualisation of children.. there is little more sexual in the way of clothing for a teenage girl than a smart school uniform. Any girl who has ever worn one will know of the looks they get and the number of times they were tapped up while in uniform.. they draw lust like flies round a honey pot. No uniform ever saved a girl from the advances of a paedophile.. girls arent stupid whatever they are, and as they increasingly mature they use all their wiles to attract guys... and part of their armoury is often their uniform...and be honest guys.. how many of u lot havent had naughty thoughts at the sight of a pretty mid to late teen girl in her uniform???

... no evidence exists that uniform/non uniform makes kids better or worse at lessons, or distracts them any more or less, or increases or lessens peer envy... the continental experience if anything is on the side of the non uniform argument.. but that isnt conclusive in my opinion..

There is an ever increasing paranoia about school kids and their mode of dress... uniformed or not.. people just want to stamp on anything which remotely smacks of sexuality.. take it from me.. our kids are sexual creatures.. they may not be sexually active, but they are growing human beings who want to look attractive to both themselves and their peers... they want to have fun and not be continually slapped down because they want to have a certain look.. people are scared our kids are going to have a life... my job is to make sure they have the best chance of doing just that not to nanny them into regimented dowdiness...

[Darkside2009]

No, I can honestly say the school uniform from the girls school next to the one I attended, did nothing for me. Occasionally a few of us used to go and sit on the hill and watch the older girls doing PT in what was then regulation navy blue knickers. After a few minutes their teacher would usually tell us to buzz off as we were distracting them.

They got their own back by watching us run past their school windows in just shorts and trainers during our cross-country runs. There was usually a lot of 'cat-calls' and whistles involved, a lot of red faces and a few V signs. However they were more innocent times.

The all boys school I attended had enough distractions without adding girls to the mix.

During their school days I have heard my nieces and nephews complaining about this or that item of clothing or brand of trainers not being 'cool' even on items that look identical apart from the brand name or logo. The 'cool' logo invariable cost three or four times the price of the identical item without the 'cool' logo.

It just means kids are more susceptible to advertising and peer pressure than the average adult who has to pay for it all, and who wants value for money as well as looks for his/her hard earned cash.

This flaunting of expensive brand assets can only be demeaning to kids whose parents cannot possibly afford to kit out their kids at such vastly inflated prices. It has little to do with creativity and more to do with instilling envy in others less financially fortunate themselves.

If it were not so there would be no trade in fake Gucci bags or Rolex watches or the other fake items on the black market.

Finally, unless your job at school is to teach sex-education lessons, I was under the impression that your job as a teacher was to teach your pupils their lessons, in whatever subject/s you might be qualified to teach in and no more. Their burgeoning sexuality is surely not in your remit?

[Long Duck Dong]

a form of protection, a a form of conforming, the reinforcing of the understanding that not everything can be the way we want......

uniforms in the military are seen as a symbol of respect, something you are proud to wear, something that you are taught to raise your standard while you are wearing it......

so yeah, there is a blend of the two..... a school uniform is a symbol of the school you attend.... and a understanding that a school uniform is something you will be proud to wear cos it represents your school

and yeah, i agree.... some of the females in school uniforms can wear them normally but make them into eye candy cos they just have that way of looking at you and talking with you, subtle movements and gestures....
there is a group of girls in my town that do it very well, and they wear their uniform no differently to the other girls at the school.....

unfortunately, on a darker note, that did cost a female her life, and it was my cousin that did it..... flirting with him, in a uniform, while he was stoned out of his mind and she made the remark that he could not get it up.... he got 10 years for what he did.... and a family lost a daughter......
his family know about me and they know one day i'm coming for him.........

freedom of expression is all good, until it goes too far...... and somebody gets hurt or worse.....

[darkeyes]

Finally, unless your job at school is to teach sex-education lessons, I was under the impression that your job as a teacher was to teach your pupils their lessons, in whatever subject/s you might be qualified to teach in and no more. Their burgeoning sexuality is surely not in your remit?

Were teaching only about teaching Dark.... I should be so lucky... this is part of my remit and that of all teachers in the local authority to which my school is attached..

Promoting and safeguarding the health, welfare and safety of pupils

Working in partnership with parents, support staff and other professionals

Contributing towards good order and the wider needs of the school.

Within each of these is clear responsibility to both school and child and to assist children get through their school lives safely and I hope happily.. I have a duty of care to children and so like any half decent teacher work within that remit and the rules of the school and am responsible to more line managers for anything I say or do. As within any school, different teachers work differently and have different ways of dealing with the problems which are thrown at them.. we see things differently and this can sometimes make for clashes with colleagues.. but never in front of the children you will be glad to here... I have a relaxed view of the school dress code, and others do too, but some are much less free and easy with it.. ultimately we are all responsible to the Rector and if we see things differently sometimes, it is rare for us to have a serious falling out..

Like anyone who is employed I operate under the ultimate direction of my bosses, and they have the final word subject of course to appeals I may be able to make quite properly within the managerial system, and also of course as a member of a trade union the right to approach them for assistance...

[sammie19]

These are a couple of posts I made in another thread. They are relevant to this discussion.


This is not about exploitation by retailers to make money or paedophiles. It is about controlling our need to be sexual beings, and our choice to be what we want to be. What we as adults wear does not deter rapists, and neither does the clothes children wear deter paedophiles.

There is a saying "give me the boy and I will give you the man". That is what it is about. A deep rooted and oppressive want of one group of puritanical people to mould another group into people like them. By enforcing a dress code upon children, parents, retailers and designers we restrict freedom of choice for parents and children to dress as they think is most fitting for them, and for children to express themselves as little people with minds of their own.

This proposal is about control and is an attempt to mould our children into less vibrant, exciting, spontanious, rebellious, less free and more pliable and docile people when they become adults. It is about controlling and moulding free expression to the needs of a group of people who do not like want others to be free sexual beings with minds of their own. It is about suppressing free expression in children and as they grow, ultimately adults, and controlling permissiveness and liberty of the individual to be themselves.

In respect of school uniforms, this is in its own way a sexualisation of children, especially girls. So it is almost an inconsistency to say desexualise childrens clothing and then insist on a uniform for them on school days.

When I first went to high school I wore a school uniform of blazer, jumper(optional), tie, skirt, white shirt and stockings and black shoes. By the end of my high school days the uniform was sweat shirt white shirt and black or grey trousers or skirt and white stockings. Many schools have changed to such a uniform, but from these schools neither has bullying dropped in frequency, nor has the incidence of paedophiles preying upon their pupils, of sexual activity among pupils themselves or with other or older people outside of school.

I am not against school uniform, it was simply something I had to wear and it never bothered me. But in schools where unifroms exist and those where they dont it is other factors which determine the bullying levels or predatory levels for in many such schools, incidences of sexual predation or bullying are no higher than in those which adhere to a strict uniform code..


I dont demur from the point you make about school uniforms. One of the reasons so many state schools have moved from jacket, tie, shirt,etc to sweat shirt and trousers or skirt is because the the expense issue. The parents of poorer children could not afford the more formal and much more expensive attire, and it was quite a simple matter to determine poor from better off by the more threadbare clothes of the poor.

I had 2 blazers when I first went to high school, and a number of ties, shirts and skirts. It was much easier to look smart with a wealth of uniform than for those whose parents could only afford one. Whether uniformed or ununiformed the poor from the better off can always be spotted at a glance the more so as the school year drags on.

My mother as a teacher dislikes school uniforms for one reason. It is more difficult to catch a culprit when 30 kids are dressed similarly then when 30 all wear their own style. She doesnt accept that uniformed children are any better behaved than those who are dressed in their own more individual gear.

Every so often at school there was a day when we could wear our own every day clothes and the odd thing is that truancy rates were down on those days, and we tended to be less disruptive even although we were allowed far more free expression than on days we wore uniforms even algthough we paid (to charity) for the privilege. One day three or four times a year proves nothing but it is an interesting observation. It also proved my mum's point.

Children have always copied their parents and adults. Fairy dresses and looking like a princess, nurses uniforms and soldier suits, space gear and so on have been the stuff of childs play for decades. That never prevented them having a childhood, and neither does wearing what people call "sexualised" clothing. It is what kids do, what they want. Not all but many, and it is important to them.

Im not quite sure what the objection is to "sexualised" clothing when we allow soldier suits, toy guns swords and kids to play at slaughtering each other. Some object to the latter because it can encourage aggression in children. It is children'splay, we shouldn't ban children's play. I have had this argument time and again with one person in particular who would ban toy guns and knives and stop kids playing soldiers.

Whether uniforms for play or clothing which mimics adult "sexualised" style for everyday use isnt important. What is important is allowing children as far as we can to be free in expressing themselves and playing happily with their friends. By depriving them of that free expression, we do not encourage them to have a childhood, contrarily we deprive them of much of it.

Free expression is something I have always felt strongly about and parents dont like it very much. Schools dont like it and grown up society tries to smother it at birth. Insisting on school uniform is part of the grown up world's attempt to make us all the same and conform and make us as boring as many of them are are. It is their way of slotting round pegs into square holes. It will never be completely successful because too many of us will always rebel and do our thing.

The person who would ban what she calls "the toys of death" for boys by the way is Fran. I, like her may hate violece, but I'm not a pacifist, and by banning kids guns and stopping them playing soldiers we remove from them another element of their free expression. It is the reality of the world we live in and childen should be allowed to express themselves freely without the heavy hand of adult society smacking them down because what the young do offends their sensibilities. That's what the whole issue of how schoolchildren dress is all about.

I love anything that encourages and develops human free expression. I would rather live in a violent, turbulent world full of free expression and the beauty, variety and ingenuity that it brings than a world of peaceful sameness where our imaginations and freedom of spirit are crushed and moulded into mindless conformity.

[darkeyes]

a form of protection, a a form of conforming, the reinforcing of the understanding that not everything can be the way we want......

uniforms in the military are seen as a symbol of respect, something you are proud to wear, something that you are taught to raise your standard while you are wearing it......

so yeah, there is a blend of the two..... a school uniform is a symbol of the school you attend.... and a understanding that a school uniform is something you will be proud to wear cos it represents your school

and yeah, i agree.... some of the females in school uniforms can wear them normally but make them into eye candy cos they just have that way of looking at you and talking with you, subtle movements and gestures....
there is a group of girls in my town that do it very well, and they wear their uniform no differently to the other girls at the school.....

unfortunately, on a darker note, that did cost a female her life, and it was my cousin that did it..... flirting with him, in a uniform, while he was stoned out of his mind and she made the remark that he could not get it up.... he got 10 years for what he did.... and a family lost a daughter......
his family know about me and they know one day i'm coming for him.........

freedom of expression is all good, until it goes too far...... and somebody gets hurt or worse.....

One of the most important duties of care a teacher has is stop kids from getting out of hand and taking the law into their own hands. It is important to keep order in school and kids and staff safe free from violence as well as preparing them for being good citizens and no danger to society when they leave school. To get them to understand that without law there is chaos. We teach them that vengeance is not an option for very good reason...

Where may I ask does what you propose to do to someone who is paying for his crime in accordance with the law fit in with that and help to give the right example to children? How does that help keep people safe? You may not think the sentence is severe enough but that is not your decision to make...

..and that Sam me luffly is what allowing kids to play with toy guns often breeds... Duckie is right in one thing.. some kinds of unfettered free expression can be harmful... his kind is anyway if we are to believe that he will do as he says...

[Realist]

Fran, aren't you supposed to be at work?

[darkeyes]

Fran, aren't you supposed to be at work?

yep:tong:

... but not now.. I'm about to eat me tea...:bigrin:

[sammie19]

yep:tong:

... but not now.. I'm about to eat me tea...:bigrin:

Skiver!!!!:eek:

[sammie19]

One of the most important duties of care a teacher has is stop kids from getting out of hand and taking the law into their own hands. It is important to keep order in school and kids and staff safe free from violence as well as preparing them for being good citizens and no danger to society when they leave school. To get them to understand that without law there is chaos. We teach them that vengeance is not an option for very good reason...

Where may I ask does what you propose to do to someone who is paying for his crime in accordance with the law fit in with that and help to give the right example to children? How does that help keep people safe? You may not think the sentence is severe enough but that is not your decision to make...

..and that Sam me luffly is what allowing kids to play with toy guns often breeds... Duckie is right in one thing.. some kinds of unfettered free expression can be harmful... his kind is anyway if we are to believe that he will do as he says...

Because a few decide to act stupidly is no reason to slam the brakes on children's enjoyment of their childhood. Some girls will become porn actresses or prostitutes, but that is no reason to deny them their free expression when they are young. It is proper guidance they need not a blanket ban on things which are important to them and play, as you have said often enough, prepares a child for adulthood.

[darkeyes]

There is a world of difference between becoming a porn star or a prostitute and a gun toting knife wielding gett! Taking my pacifism aside for the moment, not all free expression is a good thing, Sam. Not the kind which is about mindless destruction and endangering life... if u want to have a debate on free expression and the dangers of toy guns, knives and kids war games fine.. but really that's an issue for a seperate thread...

[Long Duck Dong]

One of the most important duties of care a teacher has is stop kids from getting out of hand and taking the law into their own hands. It is important to keep order in school and kids and staff safe free from violence as well as preparing them for being good citizens and no danger to society when they leave school. To get them to understand that without law there is chaos. We teach them that vengeance is not an option for very good reason...

Where may I ask does what you propose to do to someone who is paying for his crime in accordance with the law fit in with that and help to give the right example to children? How does that help keep people safe? You may not think the sentence is severe enough but that is not your decision to make...

..and that Sam me luffly is what allowing kids to play with toy guns often breeds... Duckie is right in one thing.. some kinds of unfettered free expression can be harmful... his kind is anyway if we are to believe that he will do as he says...

I am sorry... it appears that you misread......

I never said what action I will take, or my intentions or exactly why......

and as for the remark about my kind.... I do not have a kind.... there are not that many people that share the same traits as me or the same issues, so there is no my kind...... there is me........

[Darkside2009]

Sammie:-

'Free expression is something I have always felt strongly about and parents dont like it very much. Schools dont like it and grown up society tries to smother it at birth. Insisting on school uniform is part of the grown up world's attempt to make us all the same and conform and make us as boring as many of them are are. It is their way of slotting round pegs into square holes. It will never be completely successful because too many of us will always rebel and do our thing.

The person who would ban what she calls "the toys of death" for boys by the way is Fran. I, like her may hate violece, but I'm not a pacifist, and by banning kids guns and stopping them playing soldiers we remove from them another element of their free expression. It is the reality of the world we live in and childen should be allowed to express themselves freely without the heavy hand of adult society smacking them down because what the young do offends their sensibilities. That's what the whole issue of how schoolchildren dress is all about.

I love anything that encourages and develops human free expression. I would rather live in a violent, turbulent world full of free expression and the beauty, variety and ingenuity that it brings than a world of peaceful sameness where our imaginations and freedom of spirit are crushed and moulded into mindless conformity.'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
School is not an extension of the catwalks of Milan or Paris,nor some silly episode of 'Sex and the City,' wrote large across the nation. We send children to school so that they learn to become literate and numerate and hopefully learn other subjects such as science and or languages if they show any aptitude for them.

We do so in order to prepare them for the World of adulthood that lies ahead and to expand their minds, not the contents of their wardrobe. Fashion is not really an expression of individuality, more a question of fitting in. Self appointed fashion gurus declaring what this seasons fashions will be, whilst an obedient sheep-like following run off to the shops to buy them. This or that colour is going to be the new seasons black.

The Fashion industry, for that is what it is, depends on changing trends frequently in order to survive. Once the sales of one dress with whatever combination of accessories has reached saturation point, sales will slump and fall away to nothing. A new look, a new trend, then has to be brought out to regenerate sales, hence the fashion shows, the magazine articles, the seemingly endless drivel of women's television on day-time television, with its menu of fashion, diets and soaps.

Hemlines go up and down with depressing regularity, and this or that colour comes into vogue for a brief spell only to be replaced by yet another with its vapid exponents.

It is all as shallow as a puddle, and far from copying the fashions of their parents, kids copy from their peers, from what they see in magazines as being in vogue and from television. No other industry manipulates its customer base more than the fashion industry, it will even give its products for free to prominent actors and actresses for events such as the Oscars in order to achieve some prominence on that red carpet to boost the sales of this or that designer.

To prove my point, can you remember without researching it, who the designer of the dress was for the actress awarded the Best Actress Award, ten years ago? Probably not, it is that important.

I would disagree with your Mother that school uniforms serve no useful purpose. If kids are shop-lifting in a mall, it is easier to trace them if they are wearing school uniform. You note the approximate age, go to the school, within a couple of classes you have the culprits. If they are dressed in their own clothes they melt back into the populace, like a fish swimming through water, to paraphrase Mao.

On the question of phaedophiles, a number of them on questioning, showed no remorse and claimed their victims wanted it, had provoked it by the way they dressed.

If you compare the pics Fran gave the link to with the video of say Brittany Spears, dressed as a school girl singing , 'Baby hit me one more time...' then you will have a shrewd idea of what paedophiles mean when they say provoked. But, hey, sexualising children makes money for the record companies and the singer, so we can't stand in the way of that can we?

You yourself complained the other week that you had been groped in a night club by some moron, just because you were wearing a low cut dress with no bra. How many of the other women, shall we say, more conservatively dressed, did he grope? I'm betting not many if any at all. In his twisted mind, he thought you wanted it and were asking for it, the same rational the paedophile gives.

We do not allow our children free rein for very good reasons. If we did, they would sit up all night watching television and playing video games and subsisting on a diet of pizzas, chips, ice cream and soft drinks. They might well get led astray into activities that would curtail or ruin their future lives.

We do not send our children to school in fur coats and bikinis, or in low-cut, silk dresses slashed to the thigh. It is a question of what is appropriate.

The UK has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancies in Europe, if not the highest. Let us not sexualise our children at too early an age, there will be plenty of time later for them to join the ranks of the sheep, and the trend fodder, if they so wish. Instead let us use their time at school to expand their minds and their aspirations, so that they become good and productive citizens not some vapid socialite.

A good education will stay with them to the grave, last years fashions will be just that, last years fashion, outmoded, outdated and unwanted.

[Darkside2009]

Darkeyes:-

'Where may I ask does what you propose to do to someone who is paying for his crime in accordance with the law fit in with that and help to give the right example to children? How does that help keep people safe? You may not think the sentence is severe enough but that is not your decision to make...'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whilst not wishing to pry in to his family circumstances, I suppose LDD's reaction might well depend on his relationship to the girl who was killed. If it was his daughter for example, it might well be understandable that he thought a paltry ten years, was insufficient sentence for her murder. In that regard he would not be alone.

I believe in common with the UK that New Zealand has abolished the Death Penalty. In the UK, we were promised that it's abolition would be replaced by Life Imprisonment, this has not been the case. As a Nation we were lied to. It is therefore natural that many victim's families should feel aggrieved and cheated of justice and that they wish to take the matter into their own hands, if and when the opportunity presents itself.

A new law is apparently going to be introduced in the UK that a petition of the population achieving a certain number of signatures, will automatically trigger a debate, and hopefully a vote on the matter, in Parliament.

It is thought that a debate on the re-introduction of the Death Penalty will be one of the first of such items discussed, with all the ramifications that involves.

Given the nature and workings of our Parliament, I do not have any great hope of its re-introduction.

[Darkside2009]

Darkeyes:-

'...Promoting and safeguarding the health, welfare and safety of pupils...'

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Health and safety of course, that goes without saying, and welfare as regards them bullying, being bullied or showing up at school showing evidence of having been abused.

Their sexuality however would be more the province of a trained counsellor rather than a teacher I would have thought. Any doubt as to the intentions of the teacher on such a matter could make them liable to legal charges of an inappropriate relationship, and dismissal from their job.

[sammie19]

Sammie:-

'Free expression is something I have always felt strongly about and parents dont like it very much. Schools dont like it and grown up society tries to smother it at birth. Insisting on school uniform is part of the grown up world's attempt to make us all the same and conform and make us as boring as many of them are are. It is their way of slotting round pegs into square holes. It will never be completely successful because too many of us will always rebel and do our thing.

The person who would ban what she calls "the toys of death" for boys by the way is Fran. I, like her may hate violece, but I'm not a pacifist, and by banning kids guns and stopping them playing soldiers we remove from them another element of their free expression. It is the reality of the world we live in and childen should be allowed to express themselves freely without the heavy hand of adult society smacking them down because what the young do offends their sensibilities. That's what the whole issue of how schoolchildren dress is all about.

I love anything that encourages and develops human free expression. I would rather live in a violent, turbulent world full of free expression and the beauty, variety and ingenuity that it brings than a world of peaceful sameness where our imaginations and freedom of spirit are crushed and moulded into mindless conformity.'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
School is not an extension of the catwalks of Milan or Paris,nor some silly episode of 'Sex and the City,' wrote large across the nation. We send children to school so that they learn to become literate and numerate and hopefully learn other subjects such as science and or languages if they show any aptitude for them.

We do so in order to prepare them for the World of adulthood that lies ahead and to expand their minds, not the contents of their wardrobe. Fashion is not really an expression of individuality, more a question of fitting in. Self appointed fashion gurus declaring what this seasons fashions will be, whilst an obedient sheep-like following run off to the shops to buy them. This or that colour is going to be the new seasons black.

The Fashion industry, for that is what it is, depends on changing trends frequently in order to survive. Once the sales of one dress with whatever combination of accessories has reached saturation point, sales will slump and fall away to nothing. A new look, a new trend, then has to be brought out to regenerate sales, hence the fashion shows, the magazine articles, the seemingly endless drivel of women's television on day-time television, with its menu of fashion, diets and soaps.

Hemlines go up and down with depressing regularity, and this or that colour comes into vogue for a brief spell only to be replaced by yet another with its vapid exponents.

It is all as shallow as a puddle, and far from copying the fashions of their parents, kids copy from their peers, from what they see in magazines as being in vogue and from television. No other industry manipulates its customer base more than the fashion industry, it will even give its products for free to prominent actors and actresses for events such as the Oscars in order to achieve some prominence on that red carpet to boost the sales of this or that designer.

To prove my point, can you remember without researching it, who the designer of the dress was for the actress awarded the Best Actress Award, ten years ago? Probably not, it is that important.

I would disagree with your Mother that school uniforms serve no useful purpose. If kids are shop-lifting in a mall, it is easier to trace them if they are wearing school uniform. You note the approximate age, go to the school, within a couple of classes you have the culprits. If they are dressed in their own clothes they melt back into the populace, like a fish swimming through water, to paraphrase Mao.

On the question of phaedophiles, a number of them on questioning, showed no remorse and claimed their victims wanted it, had provoked it by the way they dressed.

If you compare the pics Fran gave the link to with the video of say Brittany Spears, dressed as a school girl singing , 'Baby hit me one more time...' then you will have a shrewd idea of what paedophiles mean when they say provoked. But, hey, sexualising children makes money for the record companies and the singer, so we can't stand in the way of that can we?

You yourself complained the other week that you had been groped in a night club by some moron, just because you were wearing a low cut dress with no bra. How many of the other women, shall we say, more conservatively dressed, did he grope? I'm betting not many if any at all. In his twisted mind, he thought you wanted it and were asking for it, the same rational the paedophile gives.

We do not allow our children free rein for very good reasons. If we did, they would sit up all night watching television and playing video games and subsisting on a diet of pizzas, chips, ice cream and soft drinks. They might well get led astray into activities that would curtail or ruin their future lives.

We do not send our children to school in fur coats and bikinis, or in low-cut, silk dresses slashed to the thigh. It is a question of what is appropriate.

The UK has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancies in Europe, if not the highest. Let us not sexualise our children at too early an age, there will be plenty of time later for them to join the ranks of the sheep, and the trend fodder, if they so wish. Instead let us use their time at school to expand their minds and their aspirations, so that they become good and productive citizens not some vapid socialite.

A good education will stay with them to the grave, last years fashions will be just that, last years fashion, outmoded, outdated and unwanted.

Dark, I am not talking of fashion, although fashion plays its part in all our lives. I am talking about the ability to express ourselves freely, and part of how we express ourselves is how we dress. Not every girl, or boy for that matter is a slave to fashion, but it plays a part in most of our lives.

We use and adapt fashion to make us look good so we can feel good, and to look attractive to the world and to our friends. We adapt it as an extension of who we think we are and the image we wish to project to the world, be that conformity or rebellion or like most somewhere in between.

There is no proven link to how kids dress for school and how they perform academically. There is no proven link in how they dress and whether they are more or less likely to be preyed upon by paedophiles. There is no proven evidence that how a child dresses makes him or her more or less likely to be sexually precocious and none that he or she is likely to be more or less disciplined. There is anecdotal evidence which is based on prejudice but nothing which proves much either way.

We dress as we do for a number of reasons. We dress for comfort, to look attractive, to look conservative, or rebellious, to feel good. We want to look good for ourselves, our peer group, the opposite sex and even sometimes to the world. How we dress tells the world something about us and is an extension of who we are. It does not tell everything but is a hint, and often a very tantallising one, sometimes I admit, very sexually so.

The paedophile who tells that children they molested asked for it is similar to the rapist who says the same think of an adult. There is little or no evidence that how children dress is a serious contributing factor.

You might be right about kids being identified by their uniform, but this factor doesnt deter them from shoplifting or committing any other crime. Most are far too crafty to be caught. Balanced against that is my mother's argument and she has kids around her longer in uniform than they ever are on the streets.

My old school still has days when kids go to school out of uniform, and my mum tells me that there is no more or less disorder in school than normal, and kids getting into bother outside of school is no greater or lesser.

We do have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe although it seems to be dropping quite fast. There is also no evidence that children who don't wear school uniforms are more or less likely to become pregnant than those who do. In fact most of our high schools have a uniform of some kind so I wonder just what that tells us.

Most conceptions take place at times when girls would normally be in normal clothing and not school uniform in any case as does most sexual activity. Most girls that are raped, sexually assaulted or preyed upon by raists or paedophilles are normally in more everyday clothing, not a school uniform. None of this tells us anything except that most kids wear normal clothing most of the time.

Regarding my groping, that was in a highly charged very sexual atmosphere I went to voluntarily where alcohol had free reign in a place full of so called responsible adults out to have a good time. Most were and are but not everyone. It can't be compared to a school where it is a much more formal and ordered place. Both will have its share of idiots but school is a place where we should be teaching kids not to be idiots who would act as the guy did the other week and to have fun doesnt mean doing what he likes.

No one is saying allow children free reign but we have to allow them their free expression. No evidence exists that allowing free expression in dress contributes to a more troublesome world. I think restricting free expression contributes to a more troublesome world, and also to a much more dull one.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes:-

'...Promoting and safeguarding the health, welfare and safety of pupils...'

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Health and safety of course, that goes without saying, and welfare as regards them bullying, being bullied or showing up at school showing evidence of having been abused.

Their sexuality however would be more the province of a trained counsellor rather than a teacher I would have thought. Any doubt as to the intentions of the teacher on such a matter could make them liable to legal charges of an inappropriate relationship, and dismissal from their job.

A teachers job is to guide pupils to the best way of becoming a confident, decent human being as well as educate. It is not to be a pupil's friend and certainly not his or her lover... we can be friendly but it is a dangerous thing indeed to develop very close personal ties with pupils... that potentially undermines discipline and good order as well as leave us open to just what you describe. I am fastidious in avoiding situations or saying anything which might result in any such accusation being aimed at me, and while I am always available for advice to kids, I am not prepared to discuss their or my own sexuality with them privately or publicly, and while sometimes sex and sexuality is raised in class in some way or other, that is not what I am there for and move on as quickly as possible.

There are channels for kids to be counselled but any who have problems in the areas of sex and sexuality, I refer them and do not advise again for reasons you have so aptly outlined.... I have been and probably will be again asked to be part of such counselling or discussing with my colleagues and parents children's problems and the best way to proceed, but it is in no one's interests for me to become enmeshed in a one to one way with a pupil even for the best of motives.... I have some training how to deal with such things as all teachers do but it is insufficient and am not a trained counsellor. Like most schools there are rules and safeguards to prevent such things from becoming a problem, but with the best will in the world none are or can ever be perfect, and because none are perfect, because I am openly what I am, it is in everyone's interests that I am even more careful and fastidious than most.

However.. none of that means I do not have opinions nor does it mean that I have to keep them to myself in the workplace environment... it does mean that I have to ensure that I raise and/or discuss them at the appropriate time with the appropriate people in the appropriate way.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes:-

'Where may I ask does what you propose to do to someone who is paying for his crime in accordance with the law fit in with that and help to give the right example to children? How does that help keep people safe? You may not think the sentence is severe enough but that is not your decision to make...'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Given the nature and workings of our Parliament, I do not have any great hope of its re-introduction.

Good...

[Long Duck Dong]

Dark, I am not talking of fashion, although fashion plays its part in all our lives. I am talking about the ability to express ourselves freely, and part of how we express ourselves is how we dress. Not every girl, or boy for that matter is a slave to fashion, but it plays a part in most of our lives.

We use and adapt fashion to make us look good so we can feel good, and to look attractive to the world and to our friends. We adapt it as an extension of who we think we are and the image we wish to project to the world, be that conformity or rebellion or like most somewhere in between.

There is no proven link to how kids dress for school and how they perform academically. There is no proven link in how they dress and whether they are more or less likely to be preyed upon by paedophiles. There is no proven evidence that how a child dresses makes him or her more or less likely to be sexually precocious and none that he or she is likely to be more or less disciplined. There is anecdotal evidence which is based on prejudice but nothing which proves much either way.

We dress as we do for a number of reasons. We dress for comfort, to look attractive, to look conservative, or rebellious, to feel good. We want to look good for ourselves, our peer group, the opposite sex and even sometimes to the world. How we dress tells the world something about us and is an extension of who we are. It does not tell everything but is a hint, and often a very tantallising one, sometimes I admit, very sexually so.

The paedophile who tells that children they molested asked for it is similar to the rapist who says the same think of an adult. There is little or no evidence that how children dress is a serious contributing factor.

You might be right about kids being identified by their uniform, but this factor doesnt deter them from shoplifting or committing any other crime. Most are far too crafty to be caught. Balanced against that is my mother's argument and she has kids around her longer in uniform than they ever are on the streets.

My old school still has days when kids go to school out of uniform, and my mum tells me that there is no more or less disorder in school than normal, and kids getting into bother outside of school is no greater or lesser.

We do have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe although it seems to be dropping quite fast. There is also no evidence that children who don't wear school uniforms are more or less likely to become pregnant than those who do. In fact most of our high schools have a uniform of some kind so I wonder just what that tells us.

Most conceptions take place at times when girls would normally be in normal clothing and not school uniform in any case as does most sexual activity. Most girls that are raped, sexually assaulted or preyed upon by raists or paedophilles are normally in more everyday clothing, not a school uniform. None of this tells us anything except that most kids wear normal clothing most of the time.

Regarding my groping, that was in a highly charged very sexual atmosphere I went to voluntarily where alcohol had free reign in a place full of so called responsible adults out to have a good time. Most were and are but not everyone. It can't be compared to a school where it is a much more formal and ordered place. Both will have its share of idiots but school is a place where we should be teaching kids not to be idiots who would act as the guy did the other week and to have fun doesnt mean doing what he likes.

No one is saying allow children free reign but we have to allow them their free expression. No evidence exists that allowing free expression in dress contributes to a more troublesome world. I think restricting free expression contributes to a more troublesome world, and also to a much more dull one.


ok in the town where I live, shops refuse to serve kids in uniforms, they are banned from many shops during school hours, and we have one of the lowest rates of shop theft in the country, most of the schools have uniforms....

we also have one of the lowest truancy rates, in NZ, there are smaller towns that have higher rates and schools with no uniforms.....

we also have one of the lowest bullying rates and one of the highest academic rates in NZ...

we have one of the lowest teen pregnancies in my town... yet the country have one of the highest in the world

the common denominator is school uniforms...... but there is one other factor that is not factored in...... and that is race....

if you break down nz schools by academic levels, issues of bullying, truancy and teen pregnancy, you find a disturbing pattern.......

schools that have a larger than average number of maori and pacific islanders, in schools that have no uniform, have higher rates of truancy, bullying, assaults on students and teachers and lower academic levels.......

schools that have a larger than average number of european students in schools with without uniforms, have a higher rate of abortions, STI, and sexual assaults......

no the reports are not on the internet, most reports like that are not put on the internet but they can be requested in NZ thru the right channels as they are public information....... and in that lays the issue, as its illegal to copy and post them on the net without permission....... and that is so many people think that there is no evidence cos they either can not be fucked making a effort to go and get it, or they do a google search and say, " see, there is no proof or evidence " when its right in front of people......

[darkeyes]

ok in the town where I live, shops refuse to serve kids in uniforms, they are banned from many shops during school hours, and we have one of the lowest rates of shop theft in the country, most of the schools have uniforms....

we also have one of the lowest truancy rates, in NZ, there are smaller towns that have higher rates and schools with no uniforms.....

we also have one of the lowest bullying rates and one of the highest academic rates in NZ...

we have one of the lowest teen pregnancies in my town... yet the country have one of the highest in the world

the common denominator is school uniforms...... but there is one other factor that is not factored in...... and that is race....

if you break down nz schools by academic levels, issues of bullying, truancy and teen pregnancy, you find a disturbing pattern.......

schools that have a larger than average number of maori and pacific islanders, in schools that have no uniform, have higher rates of truancy, bullying, assaults on students and teachers and lower academic levels.......

schools that have a larger than average number of european students in schools with without uniforms, have a higher rate of abortions, STI, and sexual assaults......

no the reports are not on the internet, most reports like that are not put on the internet but they can be requested in NZ thru the right channels as they are public information....... and in that lays the issue, as its illegal to copy and post them on the net without permission....... and that is so many people think that there is no evidence cos they either can not be fucked making a effort to go and get it, or they do a google search and say, " see, there is no proof or evidence " when its right in front of people......

.. thing about evidence Duckie is whether one nations experience can be precisely translated to another.. by the time u add in all the factors which u have to it becomes a morass of conflicting and confusing information.. you have race, poverty, location, prosperity, class, crime rate, housing and various other things to add in to the equation and so the question of whether the evidence is useful is questionable and whther it is evidence at all.. also you have quality of teaching and even the curriculum itself, social attitudes and a myriad of other things which can slant the evidence one way or t'other.. schools with uniforms have a weighting which results from the fact that most private and independent schools, usually with better off pupils and this slants the evidence such as it is.. within the public sector school system most schools in this country do have a uniform code.. but the evidence is patchy at best because the schools which do not are most often those in the most deprived and crime ridden areas and this too makes the information almost useless. The comparisons between those with and without uniforms in such areas have never shown much difference between the two.Often also, a school in a poor and crime ridden area recruits pupils from more prosperous places outwith what would normally be considered its catchment area.. this too slants the evidence... kids from the immediate area are denied access to that school and are ooften cast aside and considered just so much trash and end up in the the local underfunded, stressed and under resourced schools.

Why it is that a public school system in Europe substantially without uniforms outperforms the UK models and has far fewer problem pupils and schools is an argument which we will have ad infinitum. The youth of the UK are considered the worst behaved in Europe yet most schools have uniforms.

I said I dont mind uniforms and its true. I think a smart uniform code applied sensibly does not do what Sam says it does and suppress the free expression of kids.. they get out of school and they let their hair down and reassert that freedom of expression.. she is right that we should encourage free expression but without influencing it unduly.. once we exert too much influence, arguably any influence it ceases to become free expression.

Equally I'm quite happy if a school has no uniform policy.. most of such schools still have a dress code of what is and isn't acceptable for school attendance.. whether a school has a uniform or not, it should not be too restrictive and heavy handed on how children dress.. Dark's bikini would probably not go down too well in just about any school, but most kids have their own standards and we shouldn't underestimate their good sense. Some are little buggers no doubt about it, but most of them can be gotten through to with patience and understanding, and by listening to what they have to say... not by laying the law down and making it hard and fast. Children are people too and we store up trouble for ourselves by not remembering that and acting accordingly.

Children, even very young children are remarkably good at reasoning with once the barriers of hostility are broken down. Our problem is often that we fly at them with our own lack of reason.. and they respond in kind...

[Darkside2009]

All the school children here in Northern Ireland wear uniform, they also out-perform their peers in England and Wales, each and every year in exam results for GCSE and A-levels.

We also have some of the poorest areas anywhere in the UK, go figure, we Paddies can't be that daft after all. :bigrin:

Cue the diddly-dee music. :tong:

[Darkside2009]

Keep this rate up Sammie, and I'll soon be able to wallpaper my room with print-outs from your posts.

It might make for interesting reading whilst I'm lying in bed. lol

Try cutting and pasting instead of just hitting the quote button, us old men have but a short time to live...lol Or just bring a big stick and beat me with it.lol

A diddly, diddly, dee...

[Long Duck Dong]

fran its why I said, in NZ, as NZ is not the uk and there is many variables..... and only one many constant, which is people want change, but when it goes wrong, they are no where to be seen......

some schools have better academic rates without uniforms than some schools that do have uniforms...... so I look at the variables like location type of school, is it single or mixed gender, etc etc...... where as others may just look at uniforms and non uniforms....

I tend to be the same as you, I have no issues with uniforms as yes they can look very smart.... and at the same time I can respect a persons rights to freedom of expression......... but I also see the parents who have to foot the bill for both forms of clothing etc etc.... and things like that.......

part of the danger here, and I have no idea about the UK but I have heard the same about the US, is that some colors are considered to be gang colors and wearing them can place a child at risk....

red and blue are the dangerous colors, they are mongrel mob and black power clothes, in the same way that they are blood and crip colors in the US.... but we also have yellow ( head hunters and killer beez ) some say green ( coffin cheaters ) etc......
and that became very clear when the canteen foundation ( teens with cancer ) put out colored bandanas as a form of fund rising.... and there was a sudden increase in youths being beaten up.....

so even within freedom of expression there is limitations...... something that we just have to live with....... and there will always be the people that will expression themselves within reason and the people that will push the boundaries and say its my right to do this, therefore others should change their ways and accept it........

personally, I view uniforms as a way of saying, that there are times that you need to adjust to a set of rules, and later in the work place you may have to do the same.... sorry people but you can not have everything your own way and its something you will have to learn to accept.......

[darkeyes]

All the school children here in Northern Ireland wear uniform, they also out-perform their peers in England and Wales, each and every year in exam results for GCSE and A-levels.

We also have some of the poorest areas anywhere in the UK, go figure, we Paddies can't be that daft after all. :bigrin:

Cue the diddly-dee music. :tong:

Naaaaa.. ya dont get me wiv that, dark babes... daft ok... often very.. but not so dense...:)

..tho in ur case...;)

[sammie19]

Keep this rate up Sammie, and I'll soon be able to wallpaper my room with print-outs from your posts.

It might make for interesting reading whilst I'm lying in bed. lol

Try cutting and pasting instead of just hitting the quote button, us old men have but a short time to live...lol Or just bring a big stick and beat me with it.lol

A diddly, diddly, dee...

Hadn't I better get down to some serious quoting and posting in that case? I wouldn't want your final few days to be without something to take your mind off things. :bigrin:

There are a number of reasons btw why I prefer to use to use the quote button as you put it. One is the orange background catches the eye more easily and is simpler to seperate it from the body of anything I write. The content of quote and post may be rubbish and often is but others may think differently about that. Another reason is it is as quick to do as copy and paste. Another reason is that I'm just a bimbo and don't know any better.;)