Penn State

[R. R. Wayne]

The situation at Penn State with Jerry Sandusky is disgusting and disturbing. Once again those who are anti-gay will use this as "evidence" that bi-sexual people are all perverts and sick.

[falcondfw]

R.R.,
Be that as it may, the disgusting cover up at PSU should get every university official fired.
Including Jopa.
I love him. He is an incredible football mind. My mom went to PSU. As legendary as Jopa is, he fed up. He should have come clean when the allegations first surfaced. He should have gone to the U about EVERY FREAKIN allegation! And left it up to the University.
But he didn't.
Every single PSU chancellor, coach, etc. should be fired and investigated for collaboration.
Every jack ass who would hurt a child should have every appendage tied to a different horse and those horses should be sent in different directions at a gallop.
I have been through this too many times with too many women and too many fiances. Hang ALL of the bastards.

[DuckiesDarling]

Sorry, R.R, but just because he's married and accused of molesting boys it doesn't make him bisexual. It makes him a child molester. I have seem some disturbing comments on other forums regarding this scandal including someone who said "I don't know of any gay men that don't like little boys" and another who quoted him clapping and saying "Gay men are pervs" So at this moment I'm thinking there is a lot of backlash for all groups and the university.

[keefer201]

I think you've got this all twisted up. Jerry Sandusky is not bisexual, he's a criminally deviant sexual predator. Huge difference.

[Annika L]

I totally get what DD and keefer are saying. A man who molests children does so out of illness, not out of attraction. Many male molesters of male children seem to have no attraction to adult men...so are not bisexual, but rather are simply sick.

But I also get the OP's point: the casual onlooker does not know this. They see a man having sex with male children and immediately assume the guy is bi or gay...and then go on to assume that all bisexuals and homosexuals are perverts.

So I have to agree with everything the OP says as well.

[tenni]

Perhaps Annika, the issue for the GLBT movement is to clarify the difference from being gay and bisexual from Pedophilia.

[pepperjack]

R.R.,
Be that as it may, the disgusting cover up at PSU should get every university official fired.
Including Jopa.
I love him. He is an incredible football mind. My mom went to PSU. As legendary as Jopa is, he fed up. He should have come clean when the allegations first surfaced. He should have gone to the U about EVERY FREAKIN allegation! And left it up to the University.
But he didn't.
Every single PSU chancellor, coach, etc. should be fired and investigated for collaboration.
Every jack ass who would hurt a child should have every appendage tied to a different horse and those horses should be sent in different directions at a gallop.
I have been through this too many times with too many women and too many fiances. Hang ALL of the bastards. Powerful momentum currently w/this case; I see it as "The Hammer of God" coming down!

[elian]

Yeah, one of the local professors wrote an editorial and took objection to all of the media calling this "sex" when really they should be calling it "assault". This type of behavior is more about power and control than anything else.

I didn't think that Mr. Sandusky was gay, I do believe that he is a sexual predator. An adult who ought to know better in a position of power and influence over children - this type of behavior can happen regardless of the sexual orientation of the perpetrator. It might be worth noting that usually when I see this type of story in the paper it is about some straight guy who can't keep his hands off of little girls - regardless of the specific circumstances it is still a sad story.

Children grow up and learn about sex soon enough on their own - can't we just let them be children (who don't have to worry about it) for a little while?

[pepperjack]

Yeah, one of the local professors wrote an editorial and took objection to all of the media calling this "sex" when really they should be calling it "assault". This type of behavior is more about power and control than anything else.

I didn't think that Mr. Sandusky was gay, I do believe that he is a sexual predator. An adult who ought to know better in a position of power and influence over children - this type of behavior can happen regardless of the sexual orientation of the perpetrator. It might be worth noting that usually when I see this type of story in the paper it is about some straight guy who can't keep his hands off of little girls - regardless of the specific circumstances it is still a sad story.

Children grow up and learn about sex soon enough on their own - can't we just let them be children (who don't have to worry about it) for a little while? And all too often, little girls' bodies turn up later on! Got a different perspective on this, namely,when Jesus said, "....and weep not for yourselves, but for your children." Maybe I'm on the wrong thread.

[darkeyes]

Lets get it right... not all those who abuse children can be dimissed as solely as sick. There are many bisexual men, and women too I would imagine, as there are gay and lesbian men and women who live pretty ordinary lives on the face of things, who enjoy sex with adults and have quite ordinary relationships with partners they love who prey upon and abuse the young sexually. We cannot dismiss such people as merely mentally sick and say they are not whatever sexuality they are.. because many quite simply are what so many seem to be afraid of admitting they are. They are gay and they are bisexual and no amount of denying it can change that fact. They fuck other adults and they like to fuck other adults.. but they also enjoy preying upon children and boys and girls approching or close to the legal age of consent.

While we should admit that there are those within our community who prey on and abuse the young, no amount of denial by the heterosexual community cuts much ice that the vast majority of child sex abuse which occurs is perpetrated by straight people. They have to own up to the responsibility for what their kind do and not pass the buck entirely onto the gay and bisexual communities.

Arguably, not all those who we consider child abusers and paedophiles are ill.. as the young grow closer to the age of consent it becomes a grey area. It is certainly law breaking, because society has determined in the interests of the young that there should be an age of consent. Are those with whom I had sex when I was 14 or 15 paedophiles? I did not consider them so but the law in most instances takes a very different view. Those with whom I had sex at age 16 and 17 and even 20? In the latter cases certainly not in my country, yet in other countries especially much of the US it is certainly an offence to have sex with a person at those ages, but I doubt we could consider sex with the young of those ages as paedeophilia or even child abuse. At 14 or 15, in this country not many convicted of such crimes are considered paedophiles, but are considered abusers of the young and sex offenders. In the US there may be a different view. Are people who prey on the young of any of those ages mentally ill? Some no doubt, but all? I hardly think so. The arbitrary nature of ages of consent create difficulties when considering just what is the mental status of offenders.

In the case of younger children, much farther from the age of consent... it becomes a much less grey area. With them there is no doubt child abuse is paedophilia and the younger the child the more certain I am of it. Are all those who impose their desires on children of a year old, 5, 8, 10 or 12 mentally ill in that their sexual desires are determined by some personality disorder or illness? Probably, but not necessarily. I used to think they were all mentally ill in some way but am a little less sure of that than even a few years ago. I don't know why this should be so, possibly being parent and also working with children has something to do with it I cant say.

The more I read about child abuse and paedophilia the more I am convinced that our societies dont properly understand it, and certainly dont have much of an idea of what goes on the minds of paedophiles and child abusers. I don't even think we have broken skin. What I am convinced of, is that until each of the sexualities nods and accepts that within their number there are paedophiles and there are child abusers and abusers of adolescents we will continue to stumble about in the dark. It isnt enough just to call someone a perv for what he or she does to the young and call him or her mentally ill.. we have to understand why and just what he or she does and thinks and in that we simply do not know enough.

So on this site there are almost certainly paedophiles and child abusers. They will be predominantly bisexual because this is a bisexual site.. not all will be mentally ill in my opinion.. just as those who are gay, or lesbian or straight who are members of this site and who abuse children and the young sexually are not all mentally ill. We dont think of the issue of paedophilia and child abuse deeply enough. We instinctively recoil and dismiss it as something which has something to do with another community.. child abuse and paedophilia is perpetrated by people of all sexualities.. arguably, it may even be a sexuality all of its own since many child abusers are unable to be attracted to or perform sexually with other adults. Whatever it is, until we unravel its mysteries, children and young adolescents will be preyed upon and children and young adolsecents will be abused and even worse.

[elian]

Yes well depending on the culture a lot of expectations can change - I will tell you in THIS culture it really screwed with my mind to be sexualized when I was 7-8 years old.. It wasn't even really the sex that I objected to - I loved the attention of an older boy, but the fact that he loved me and left and the fact that before he decided to "show me what love was" he tortured me in various different ways..no "adult" had ever frightened me so much.

Add to that at 7 years old you can't tell the difference between "sex" and "love". It took YEARS for me to learn to gain a somewhat healthy self image and learn to relate to others in a healthy way..

Along with the fact that it is ILLEGAL for an ADULT to do it, it's just not WORTH destroying someone's self esteem in that way, let children develop their character enough to be able to stand on their own two feet before you try to reach for what is between their legs.

Regardless of cultural context I still believe that is wrong for a trusted adult in a position of power to abuse that trust. Sex elicits very powerful emotions, the adult knows what sex is about, the child probably does not. It is wrong for an adult to abuse that trust and their position, period.

Former Coach Joe Paterno is like a God in State College and a lot of people in Pennsylvania are hurting right now to even consider what has happened. It makes me somewhat unhappy to even have the name of that school on my resume. Ultimately I hold Sundusky as the most accountable and the president of the school as the second most accountable. The behavior was reported to the President and at that time he could have taken decisive action but chose not to. Like most universities I don't think they wanted to publicly acknowledge the behavior that goes on in some of these school campuses. PennState has more money than God, they are almost as expensive as some private schools - can you imagine what would've happened if some parents would have learned about this "scandal" ?

Too little too late for some of the people involved I'm afraid but at least some of them are being held accountable.

I have had training in being able to recognize human trafficking and what is sad is the number of people who are STILL bought and sold against their will, very young people forced to have sex, drugged, abused... it's NOT a very nice thing, there's nothing "erotic" about that at all and if I knew better it would make me stick my dick between my legs like a tucked tail and run the other way.

[DuckiesDarling]

Yes well depending on the culture a lot of expectations can change - I will tell you in THIS culture it really screwed with my mind to be sexualized when I was 7-8 years old.. It wasn't even really the sex that I objected to - I loved the attention of an older boy, but the fact that he loved me and left and the fact that before he decided to "show me what love was" he tortured me in various different ways..no "adult" had ever frightened me so much.

Add to that at 7 years old you can't tell the difference between "sex" and "love". It took YEARS for me to learn to gain a somewhat healthy self image and learn to relate to others in a healthy way..

Along with the fact that it is ILLEGAL for an ADULT to do it, it's just not WORTH destroying someone's self esteem in that way, let children develop their character enough to be able to stand on their own two feet before you try to reach for what is between their legs.

Regardless of cultural context I still believe that is wrong for a trusted adult in a position of power to abuse that trust. Sex elicits very powerful emotions, the adult knows what sex is about, the child probably does not. It is wrong for an adult to abuse that trust and their position, period.

Former Coach Joe Paterno is like a God in State College and a lot of people in Pennsylvania are hurting right now to even consider what has happened. It makes me somewhat unhappy to even have the name of that school on my resume. Ultimately I hold Sundusky as the most accountable and the president of the school as the second most accountable. The behavior was reported to the President and at that time he could have taken decisive action but chose not to. Like most universities I don't think they wanted to publicly acknowledge the behavior that goes on in some of these school campuses. PennState has more money than God, they are almost as expensive as some private schools - can you imagine what would've happened if some parents would have learned about this "scandal" ?

Too little too late for some of the people involved I'm afraid but at least some of them are being held accountable.

I have had training in being able to recognize human trafficking and what is sad is the number of people who are STILL bought and sold against their will, very young people forced to have sex, drugged, abused... it's NOT a very nice thing, there's nothing "erotic" about that at all and if I knew better it would make me stick my dick between my legs like a tucked tail and run the other way.

hugs ya elian, great post.

Yeah I read a story earlier about what this means to Coach Paterno's legacy, he did the right thing, he reported it. It's the rest of the staff that need to answer for not acting on it. Reminds me of the Catholic Church that just shuffled the molesters around instead of turning them in to the police.

[æonpax]

In as many as 93 percent of child sexual cases, the child knows the person that commits the abuse. - http://www.stopitnow.org/child_sexual_abuse_fact_sheet

[Annika L]

I said children and I meant children. I said molest and I meant molest. I said sick/ill and I meant sick/ill.

The majority of the kids Sandusky was abusing were between 8 and 11 when the abuse started. The depictions described in the Grand Jury Findings of Fact didn't sound the least bit consensual. It sounded like a man with an extreme amount of power using his godlike reputation, money, and resources to push his luck as far as he could with vulnerable children. That is molestation.

The impulse for this use of power against the powerless may or may not constitute or arise from mental illness. But it is sick.

[12voltman59]

As I have said in the past--when I had gotten training in my probation officer days to handle sex offender cases----from the information that we were taught in regards to pedophiles (this was back in the late 80s to mid 9os so this information may now be not fully current and correct)---they were nearly always middle aged, high income white men in positions of power and authority that they used to gain access to their victims, married with children, they sexually identified themselves as heterosexual when it came to sex with adults---its just that they would pick child aged victims based upon a sort of "stuck point' in their sexual development that harkened back to when they were of roughly the age of their victims--with this guy Sandusky--based on the information coming out that his victims were boys of around ten years of age----he very likely did have sex with other boys when he was that age and the other boys were that age as well.

Now--this of course was not always the case---but according to those who are expert in this area----this does tend to be the general profile of a man who comes to prey on young children---if this profile holds true for Sandusky--it could have just as easily been the case that he had fixated on young girls and victimized them instead of his fixation being on young boys.

Some other aspects of what they had taught us in our training----in some cases men will do this as a result of some stressor in their lives--with others--it is because they are rather narcissistic individuals who somehow think they are entitled to do something of this nature, they won't get caught and that they are above the law.

The training that I did not only included probation/parole officers, but judges, prosecutors, police officers, guardian ad litems, defense attorneys and anyone else that might have to deal with such cases and individuals who commit these acts.

As far as this case is concerned-what a totally fucked up way for the career of one of the most storied coaches in all of college football to come to an end----but it had to be if he really knew about what was gong on and really didn't do anything more to deal with it when it happened---hell--he is gonna be lucky he doesn't face criminal charges--you can be sure as hell sure he along with everyone else is gonna have their pants sued off and rightly so since it does seem that with much of what happened---criminal statute of limitations may have run out.

Bad shit this---just seems to be more shit to shovel on the pile of what is going on out there!!

[12voltman59]

Apparently in the case of Sandusky---he probably only knew the kids in passing---he had set up some program for "disadvantaged kids"---kids who became his victims.

So, he used his position to create a situation to get at kids--kids who would probably "shut the fuck up" since the big man that was their ostensible benefactor was their rapist.

With them coming from such hard backgrounds--they might not be believed or felt they wouldn't since it would be their word against Sandusky's.

It was pretty slick on his part to set up this scam--he could act like the great humanitarian, while his real purpose was to be able to rape kids with near impunity.

It's kinda like a script from an episode of "Criminal Minds" or something!!!

[æonpax]

Joe Paterno knew about it and should have done something.

[DuckiesDarling]

He did do something, Aeon, he reported it to his superiors and was told it would be dealt with. At least give him the credit for that, he could have pretended not to know a thing and walked on.

[mikey3000]

Arguably, not all those who we consider child abusers and paedophiles are ill.. as the young grow closer to the age of consent it becomes a grey area. It is certainly law breaking, because society has determined in the interests of the young that there should be an age of consent. Are those with whom I had sex when I was 14 or 15 paedophiles? I did not consider them so but the law in most instances takes a very different view. Those with whom I had sex at age 16 and 17 and even 20? In the latter cases certainly not in my country, yet in other countries especially much of the US it is certainly an offence to have sex with a person at those ages, but I doubt we could consider sex with the young of those ages as paedeophilia or even child abuse. At 14 or 15, in this country not many convicted of such crimes are considered paedophiles, but are considered abusers of the young and sex offenders. In the US there may be a different view. Are people who prey on the young of any of those ages mentally ill? Some no doubt, but all? I hardly think so. The arbitrary nature of ages of consent create difficulties when considering just what is the mental status of offenders.




Yes well depending on the culture a lot of expectations can change - I will tell you in THIS culture it really screwed with my mind to be sexualized when I was 7-8 years old.. It wasn't even really the sex that I objected to - I loved the attention of an older boy, but the fact that he loved me and left and the fact that before he decided to "show me what love was" he tortured me in various different ways..no "adult" had ever frightened me so much.



You both have brought up very good points. I have been thinking about this so much that I think it deserves a separate thread.

[pepperjack]

Apparently in the case of Sandusky---he probably only knew the kids in passing---he had set up some program for "disadvantaged kids"---kids who became his victims.

So, he used his position to create a situation to get at kids--kids who would probably "shut the fuck up" since the big man that was their ostensible benefactor was their rapist.

With them coming from such hard backgrounds--they might not be believed or felt they wouldn't since it would be their word against Sandusky's.

It was pretty slick on his part to set up this scam--he could act like the great humanitarian, while his real purpose was to be able to rape kids with near impunity.

It's kinda like a script from an episode of "Criminal Minds" or something!!!

Watch Criminal Minds on a regular basis & think ur speculation & analysis here are right on!

[Michigan_cpl]

any one who prays on our young children and molest them should just be shoot. there are plenty of men and women who will give it up. leave our children the hell alone.
pen state was just covering it up to protect there own ass. they should be shoot too. that way it will save on the prison system.

[pepperjack]

R.R.,
Be that as it may, the disgusting cover up at PSU should get every university official fired.
Including Jopa.
I love him. He is an incredible football mind. My mom went to PSU. As legendary as Jopa is, he fed up. He should have come clean when the allegations first surfaced. He should have gone to the U about EVERY FREAKIN allegation! And left it up to the University.
But he didn't.
Every single PSU chancellor, coach, etc. should be fired and investigated for collaboration.
Every jack ass who would hurt a child should have every appendage tied to a different horse and those horses should be sent in different directions at a gallop.
I have been through this too many times with too many women and too many fiances. Hang ALL of the bastards.Agreed, A phenomenal career; but it's because football is God in this country that this happened.

[love1234]

Apparently in the case of Sandusky---he probably only knew the kids in passing---he had set up some program for "disadvantaged kids"---kids who became his victims.

So, he used his position to create a situation to get at kids--kids who would probably "shut the fuck up" since the big man that was their ostensible benefactor was their rapist.

With them coming from such hard backgrounds--they might not be believed or felt they wouldn't since it would be their word against Sandusky's.

It was pretty slick on his part to set up this scam--he could act like the great humanitarian, while his real purpose was to be able to rape kids with near impunity.

It's kinda like a script from an episode of "Criminal Minds" or something!!!

I think more than a few people that position them selves working with children have an odd attraction. Seems to be the history of this type of predator.

I was told by person in the know some (predators) have just an age group they really want and will sleep with mom long time to get to the child when they hit the age they are attracted to plus they have all the children's friends to prey on.

[12voltman59]

I had not really been following all the details of this case--but not long after I wrote that entry about Sandusky must have set up the program so he could get at the kids----one of the networks had a video of him giving an interview back in 2007 talking about how hard it had been to get the program up and running but that by then it was going great guns. He waxed on how great it felt that he could help those kids get an edge up on life and how many of them had gone on to college, careers and things-----all the while---he was preying on at least a portion of the kids in the program---what a freaking sleaze ball!!!

At this time, Sandusky now faces at least 40 sexual assault charges with the number expected to possibly grow even greater!!!

I also heard on the news this morning--JoePa has retained a criminal attorney---maybe he can face possible criminal charges himself--something like "Obstruction of Justice" or some specific charge relating to PA's laws regarding the responsibility of officials that obtain knowledge that such a crime has taken place and the fact that he only did the bare minimum in regards to passing the information along to appropriate authorities, with him facing some sort of negligence or malfeasance charges.

It could be that a number of the top level administration officials at Penn State and the football coaching staff are going to be in some sort of legal jeopardy as a result of this situation--as they should be.

[darkeyes]

any one who prays on our young children and molest them should just be shoot. there are plenty of men and women who will give it up. leave our children the hell alone.
pen state was just covering it up to protect there own ass. they should be shoot too. that way it will save on the prison system.

So much for Justice, presumption of innocence and the right to fair trial by jury of our peers...

[Leo james]

Paterno DID REPORT IT- He also knew about it FOR ALL THOSE YRS AFTER REPORTING!!! How could he live with himself knowing it was being "hushed" ?

[12voltman59]

Paterno DID REPORT IT- He also knew about it FOR ALL THOSE YRS AFTER REPORTING!!! How could he live with himself knowing it was being "hushed" ?

Those with legal knowledge about this situation, the laws of Pennsylvania and federal laws regarding the requirement that top officials must report their knowledge of such acts, with the way that Penn State is structured--Paterno is one of the top officials of that school and he should have been the one to do the reporting not passing the buck up the line--things of that nature are being talked about.

At the behest of a REPUBLICAN Congressman from PA---the US Dept of Education has launched an investigation into this matter and the Justice Dept may soon follow suit in starting one too. That Congressman was a former state attorney in Pennsylvania prior to joining Congress.

This thing is gonna get a whole lot messier, bigger with many ramifications that we don't even know about yet.

[drugstore cowboy]

Those with legal knowledge about this situation, the laws of Pennsylvania and federal laws regarding the requirement that top officials must report their knowledge of such acts, with the way that Penn State is structured--Paterno is one of the top officials of that school and he should have been the one to do the reporting not passing the buck up the line--things of that nature are being talked about.

At the behest of a REPUBLICAN Congressman from PA---the US Dept of Education has launched an investigation into this matter and the Justice Dept may soon follow suit in starting one too. That Congressman was a former state attorney in Pennsylvania prior to joining Congress.

This thing is gonna get a whole lot messier, bigger with many ramifications that we don't even know about yet.

This is actually a very good thing. Who cares if a Republican started an investigation?

McQuay the guy who saw the actual rape should have called 911 or done something and ultimately he failed.

The University will not receive a dime of my money until every member of this Board of Trustees has been removed. Joe Paterno's and Dr. Spanier's removal was the gutless reaction of cowards.

Of course it was, because the media circus was calling for their heads and of course we have to pander to the media.....

This country is a joke.

[æonpax]

Paterno DID REPORT IT- He also knew about it FOR ALL THOSE YRS AFTER REPORTING!!! How could he live with himself knowing it was being "hushed" ?

Joe Paterno reported to his boss, Graham B. Spanier, who did nothing. He should have reported it to the municipal police.



Fifteen Adults at Penn State Knew About Child Sexual Assaults, Rapes and Did Not Act


Joe Paterno, the legendary Penn State University football coach who was in his 46th season, was fired by the school’s board of trustees Wednesday.

Graham B. Spanier, Penn State’s president since 1995, also was fired by the board of trustees Wednesday. He was told of the 2002 shower incident but did not report the matter to police.

Tim Curley, Penn State’s athletic director, is charged by the state attorney general with perjury and failing to report to authorities what he knew of the allegations.

Gary Schultz, Penn State’s senior vice president for finance and business, is charged by the attorney general with perjury and failing to report to authorities what he knew of the allegations.

Mike McQueary, Penn State assistant football coach, says he witnessed Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the shower in 2002 and reported the incident to his higher-ups.

Jim Calhoun, a janitor who saw Sandusky performing oral sex on a boy in 2000, suffers from dementia and is not competent to testify.

Ronald Petrosky, another janitor, was approached by a shaking and crying Calhoun in 2000. He testified that the janitors were afraid they’d lose their jobs if they told on Sandusky.

Jay Witherite, the janitors’ immediate supervisor, was told of the 2000 incident and left it up to Calhoun to report it.

Ray Gricar, formerly Centre County district attorney, investigated a 1998 claim about Sandusky acting inappropriately with a boy in the shower. He disappeared in 2005.

Ronald Schreffler, a campus detective, was told in 1998 to close the case on Sandusky.

Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the state Department of Child Welfare, interviewed Sandusky on the 1998 incident.

Thomas Harmon was director of campus police in 1998, when Sandusky was investigated.

Ralph Ralston, another campus police officer, worked on the Sandusky case in 1998.

Dr. Jack Raykovitz, executive director of The Second Mile, allegedly was notified of the anal sex incident in 2002.

Wendell Courtney was university counsel during the 1998 investigation and remains counsel for The Second Mile.


Source: http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2011/11/11/fifteen-adults-knew-about-child-sexual-assaults-at-penn-state-and-did-not-act

[roy m cox]

i knew the guy that reaped me and so did the school they did nothing to him and he got away with it ,
i on the other hand got punished for telling on him and more the school put me in special ed ,
i don't care what people say Penn State should be shut down for letting monsters like that go on and on... and it pisses me off when people try and say it's cuzz they are gay or bisexual , a monster is a monster .................

[12voltman59]

Now people are stepping forward to say that they were abused by Jerry Sandusky as far back as the 1970s!!

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/report-alleged-sandusky-victims-far-back-1970s-contact-lawyers

If this turns out to be true----that might mark the end of the Penn State football program!!

[elian]

The local newspaper has pretty comprehensive coverage. I have been following this Sandusky testimony, reading the statements made by the victims and it's been bringing up feelings from the past. The whole thing is just very sad, no child should have to go through that - to be forced to use their body for ransom, and forced into shame and silence..if the child is crying they obviously want to be removed from the situation - if my ADULT lover is upset it bothers me enough - I can't even imagine trying to force a child.. Abuse of power, coercion, deception, pride, arrogance, denial - screws up their sense of self pretty bad - it's just sad..very sad. Why does it have to be this way?


I don't know, the defense wants to make this out to be some sort of greedy witch hunt, but I'm having a hard time finding sympathy for Mr. Sandusky. At the very least he should have recognized that he had a problem and sought therapy, instead he hurt a lot of people..both directly and indirectly.

One of my friends at work keeps insinuating that gay people have an unnatural sexual attraction to children and I'd love to tell him just how upset I got reading that testimony..it actually makes me wish I could do something too, I know what it's like to be abused.

It almost makes me want to play the Pat Benetar song, but I know better. I think maybe I will pray for healing - seems like something a lot of people could use right now.

[Annika L]

One of my friends at work keeps insinuating that gay people have an unnatural sexual attraction to children and I'd love to tell him just how upset I got reading that testimony

Look up the statistics, and quote them to your "friend"...the vast majority of sexual abuse of children is committed by straight males (and interestingly, I believe that includes male-on-male abuse...I don't believe Sandusky is gay or bi).

[elian]

I agree with you Annika, I think abuse of this type is more about power and control than sex.

[Brian]

I have to admit to cringing when I hear Sandusky described as bisexual; and the video murderer here in Canada, Luka Magnotta, too. Two recent cases of serious crimes committed by men who could accurately be described as bisexual (if the facts reported in newspapers and victim allegations are accurate).

But you know, it is what it is. Two prominent criminals (alleged) happen to be bisexual. And possibly their inability to come to grips with their homosexuality/bisexuality contributed to their criminal activities. (And in the case of Sandusky/Penn State, an unhealthy and unscientific view of human sexuality ("sex is evil - we shouldn't be talking about it in public") seems to have also contributed to the cover up, as has happened repeatedly in the Catholic Church and other organizations)

I think it just supports the idea that it is important for a society to have healthy attitude to homosexuality/bisexuality, because then individuals are more likely to have the same, and from that flows all sorts of positive things - not the least of which is sick people with character issues (and far worse) are more likely to seek out the help they need; and sexual abuse is more likely to be reported and treated seriously and addressed prudently.

I don't see any value in running away from crimes committed by bisexuals where their crimes may be connected to their difficulty in coming to grips with their sexuality - we should meet that head on and peel back the layers of the onion and ask if an unhealthy and unscientific view of human sexuality was a factor and if we, as a society, can do better.

In short, I think these case are evidence that an unhealthy and unscientific view of human sexuality has terrible consequences for a society.

- Drew :paw:

[tenni]

With the Magnotta murderer, I had read him being connected more to gay porn and even reality show auditions than bisexuality? In Ontario, he compared more to Bernardo in the media. His bizzare dismembering and mailing body parts have him being described more as attention seeking disturbed person. Things will comeout inthetrialas to whether their was a samesex relationship withthe victim. However using the sexuality of the victim or accused should benot used with paedophilia cases.

[Realist]

Drew, I agree with your last sentence. These things can't help but garner some derogatory publicity for bisexuals!

People are always doing things to discredit the majority, who are conscientious and aware of the limits of reason and the law. We're not the only group, who can earn unwanted publicity, because of a few folks' stupidity.

Motorcyclists are often disliked and mistrusted, because the actions of a few.

Campers, who leave trash and set fires, have caused lands previously available to be closed to all.

My area has so many traffic lights, that it takes an inordinate amount of time to get anywhere, because drivers won't use common sense.

I hope this thing with Sandusky won't bleed over into our realm, but I won't bank on it! He may become an example used by those who hate us.

[Annika L]

Two recent cases of serious crimes committed by men who could accurately be described as bisexual (if the facts reported in newspapers and victim allegations are accurate).

Drew (or somebody), can you bring me up to speed here? I may have missed something, but I've heard no allegations that Sandusky is bisexual...just idle prattle of the sort given by Elian's friend at the office. Is the media saying that Sandusky has had sexual relations with *men* (not boys)?

I ask because my understanding of sexual predation is as Elian suggests: it is about power, not sex or attraction. Again, the vast majority of even *male on male* predation is done by straight men. The fact that a man has performed sexual acts on/with younger boys does not indicate anything about his sexual preference.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm has some discussion on why a non-gay/bi male would molest male children.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html is a more formal treatment of the question, and mentions


...the important point is that many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.

I did not do exensive research on this...you can probably find more and better references out there.

I do agree completely that regardless of Sandusky's sexuality, his actions will direct hostile attention toward bisexuals from the masses. But I believe it is unwarranted and ignorant attention, and I think the bisexual community should be very wary about making statements that validate associating him with us, or connecting his crimes with his sexuality. It's not a matter of "not wanting him to be bi" (as I might say in cases where an acknowledged bisexual commits such a crime)...it's more a matter that there's really no reason to think he is.

[Brian]

Hi Annika,

I don't recall exactly in what media I heard Sandusky referred to as bisexual.

He is married to a woman, since 1966 (if his wikipedia entry is correct). And if the allegations are correct, there seems to be some same-sex attraction to teenaged boys as well. So I think that makes "bisexual" a fair descriptor. I personally have no issue with it.

I don't agree with this quote at all:

many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women. Is that from one of the urls in your post? If you are an adult male and you are attracted to teenaged males then that is a same-sex attraction - to suggest it isn't I think is to try way too hard. If the molester's attraction was strictly to pre-pubescent children then maybe I could agree with some of that quote. But in this case, the victims appear to be for the most part pubescent/post-pubescent males - to suggest that Sandusky's behaviour (if as alleged) is not evidence of same-sex attraction just doesn't seem like a tenable position at all.

I don't think we should shy away from Sandusky and Magnotta being described as bisexual. To deny would be unhelpful. Instead we should try to peel back the layers of the onion and understand what makes some men (and occasionally women) prey on those too young to properly consent to sex and commit other sexual crimes. When I do that, the pattern I see is that these people all have a very unhealthy view of human sexuality that is not based in fact and science.

- Drew :paw:

[Annika L]

Hi Drew,

Yes, the quote is from the second URL I gave, and matches what I have heard consistently over the years from people who have worked with sex offenders/predators (my father worked as a social worker and youth counselor for many years, so I've heard and read a lot of bits and pieces).

I agree it sounds counter-intuitive, and I had a hard time with the logic when I first heard it, but I am also compelled by the work that's been done by actual researchers in the field.

Specifically, your argument does make an important assumption that is not necessarily warranted. You say "If you are an adult male and you are attracted to teenaged males, then that is a same-sex attraction"...but to apply this to Sandusky assumes Sandusky is sexually attracted to teenaged boys. Sexual predators are not necessarily (or even typically) sexually attracted to their prey. It is about power, not sex or attraction. You find the same dynamic with rapists...they are not always or even typically attracted to the women they rape...it is an act of power and domination, not of sexual passion, and is bred of hatred or disdain toward women, not of attraction.

So I don't believe it is denial to suggest Sandusky is not necessarily bisexual. I think it is just accepting the research and the dominant view of people who study this dynamic to say that we can draw no conclusions about an abuser's sexuality from the targets of their abuse...intuitively compelling as it might be to do so.

[elian]

I do agree with Drew's assertion that we should be more open talking about "sex" in society - if it is a natural part of human existence there is an appropriate way to acknowledge it as natural and healthy to have sexual feelings. Hopefully some day we'll get to the point where people don't snicker when they hear the word "penis". I agree that since the whole topic of sex is treated as taboo then it makes it very easy to hide incidents of sexual abuse. If we empower people with a decent sense of self-esteem, respect for themselves and others - when the whole society does that then we can give people the tools and the courage to ask honest questions without fear of reprisal and the ability to speak up without feeling as though they are going to be ostracized.

I've always found it absolutely amazing that at least here in the US I can get as many guns as I want and tons of ammo - used to be "no questions asked", but let me ask for help to work through an emotional stumbling block in my life and only then am I all the sudden considered a "weirdo". The stigma against mental illness is still very much alive I think. I've said before that although it is good for the human spirit to face some adversity, people ought to realize that emotional and spiritual wounds can be just as real as the physical ones.

On top of the other things going on this week in my life I found a used copy of the movie "Amish Grace" in a bin at the video store, when I watched it I cried like a baby because it demonstrates the true power of forgiveness and healing..which is something I need to consider at times in order to live a healthy, productive life.