Any gay guys who turned bi?

[theisland559]

Im a gay guy and i hav been strictly gay for about 9 years, im 18 and ive been legitimatly gay since i was 11. I stumbled upon some straight porn and for the first time it didnt disgust me. I actualy enjoyed watching it. Then i began to watch alot of straight porn, and now i watch bisexual porn. It has even made me curious enough to want to try sex with a girl. Just havnt had the courage to go out and try it yet lol. So yes i am extreemly bi-curious. And has this happened to any other gay guys? Girls reading this forum, have you ever had sexual experiences with a guy who was definetly gay? Any stories or other such thibgs involving experience and such will be greatly appreciated :)

[BiDaveDtown]

There are a whole shit load of latent bisexuals masquerading around as gay men because they are ignorant of the fact that bisexual doesn't only mean an equal attraction to both genders or they're too scared to admit it because they've invested so much of their time and energy cultivating a gay identity. A good number of men who say they are gay aren't gay/homosexual at all. They only say they are gay because they want a relationship with a guy. But a good number of them if they can't find a guy when they are horny will just have sex with a woman, and they are bisexual since they're sexually attracted to both genders. There are some gay men who are highly bigoted towards bisexual men. Just like there are some lesbians who dislike bisexual women and trans women. These factors are also reasons why men and women who are bisexual yet call themselves gay or lesbian do not want to come out. The dirty little secret that never gets addressed in the so called "gay" world is the fact that many gay identified men do go through a second coming out and re-identify as bisexual. These men may still overwhelmingly prefer men, but their orientation and identity are not exclusively towards men. Their attraction to both sexes manifests differently as well. The ridiculous protest that "sexual attraction to a woman just happened that one time, it doesn't mean anything, it's not going to happen again!" belies the fact if you really were a gay man you wouldn't have been turned on by a woman in the first place and to now assume that it would never happen again defies basic logic. I've found that if you dare to even allude to a man not being not quite "gay" (in other words bisexual) then you get the typical apoplectic reaction--oh no, no, no, he's gay, he's definitely gay, absolutely, no question about it, and on and on and on. So many gay men are so fucking bi-phobic it's unreal--and it's usually because they don't understand the concept in the first place and they've made no attempt to do so.

[theisland559]

umm, ok? O_o" i dont need to hear the plight of bisexual men and women -.-

[PeterNZ]

umm, ok? O_o" i dont need to hear the plight of bisexual men and women -.- You're on a bisexual site. What sort of stuff do you expect to read on here? I don't think that you should be so bi-phobic, and dismissive especially since you yourself have written about how you're bisexual and once identified as gay yet you want to fuck a woman, like to watch porn with women, and you get turned on by women. :rolleyes:

[Gearbox]

Im a gay guy and i hav been strictly gay for about 9 years, im 18 and ive been legitimatly gay since i was 11. I stumbled upon some straight porn and for the first time it didnt disgust me. I actualy enjoyed watching it. Then i began to watch alot of straight porn, and now i watch bisexual porn. It has even made me curious enough to want to try sex with a girl. Just havnt had the courage to go out and try it yet lol. So yes i am extreemly bi-curious. And has this happened to any other gay guys? Girls reading this forum, have you ever had sexual experiences with a guy who was definetly gay? Any stories or other such thibgs involving experience and such will be greatly appreciated :)
Just have sex with a woman and don't over think it. Obviously not just any one, but one you feel attracted to, and comfortable with. Bi's don't really fek anything on two legs.lol
Explore away, and for God sake use a condom.:yikes2:

[elian]

Sexuality is so pent up in America that it doesn't surprise me that people have changing attitudes when they get some actual experience. I mean no disrepect but you are still developing your sexual identity so it seems perfectly natural to me that you would be curious. I used to think that I had to prove that I was either gay -or- straight simply because I didn't even think of bisexual as an option. I was pretty frustrated when I would be completely fixated on guys to the point of believing I was gay, only to see some female porn and be just as excited.

I think it's perfectly fine for sexuality to change with experience, the harm comes when someone tries to FORCE you to be something you are not. Also, your sexuality is only one PART of who you are as whole being - why people treat it as such a taboo subject in this country I'll never know.

..and yes, by all means try it if you think it is something that you might enjoy but do use a condom.

[theisland559]

ok, i get ya. But for everyone else, im not bisexual. Not yet at least. Im CURIOUS. Ok? And i think y im so curious is cuz for us gays, vagina is kinda taboo. So i guess thats y it perks our curiosity. I my self will never date a woman. I would only want to try sex with a woman. Maybe in a bisexual 3some. Im pretty much Homoromantic. Bicurious, and possibly to become homoflexible. Although everyone isnt answering my main questio . Wgo here was originaly gay but became bi after a sexual experience with a woman? And can you tell us about thay experience. Please.

[PeterNZ]

ok, i get ya. But for everyone else, im not bisexual. Not yet at least. Im CURIOUS. Ok? And i think y im so curious is cuz for us gays, vagina is kinda taboo. So i guess thats y it perks our curiosity. I my self will never date a woman. I would only want to try sex with a woman. Maybe in a bisexual 3some. Im pretty much Homoromantic. Bicurious, and possibly to become homoflexible. Although everyone isnt answering my main questio . Wgo here was originaly gay but became bi after a sexual experience with a woman? And can you tell us about thay experience. Please. Terms like bi-curious/curious, homo-flexible, homo-romantic, etc. are all just other terms for being bisexual. I'd suggest you get over your vaginophobic idea of how 'Gays think vagina is taboo/gross'. FYI not all gay men feel this way about women's genitals even if they're not sexually attracted to women. It's not that the person is somehow originally gay and then becomes bisexual. They always were bisexual but just identified as gay and then realised that they're bisexual like Dave posted.

[elian]

OK, as far as regular intercourse goes? Incredibly nervous, I couldn't stay hard and I was just not into it at all - but in a different situation, much more relaxed - I helped her pleasure herself and I think we both enjoyed that a lot. It got me to thinking that if I could lose the nervousness that it wouldn't be so bad, and maybe even natural. It took me a few YEARS and a few more experiences to process those feelings and finally come to accept who I really was..it's not like you're a light switch you can turn on and off at will..and there's nothing wrong with that.

Call it what you want, but don't think less of yourself or others - Your sexuality is one part of you, it's nothing to be ashamed or afraid of no matter what label they use.

[coldfire78]

Call it what you want, but don't think less of yourself or others - Your sexuality is one part of you, it's nothing to be ashamed or afraid of no matter what label they use.


Well said! Stop thinking in terms of black and white, and start thinking in terms of "varying shades of gray". Drop all labels and pretenses and "expectations". Just go with what makes you happy. Nobody should allow gender to dictate who makes them happy any more than they should allow race.

You're young, and you still have a whole lot of life left to live and explore. There is only one way to truly ever define yourself, and that is to actually get out there and live - make your mistakes, find your joys, and through the experiences acquired over time then you can truly say "This is who I am."

[dafydd]

There are a whole shit load of latent bisexuals masquerading around as gay men because they are ignorant of the fact that bisexual doesn't only mean an equal attraction to both genders or they're too scared to admit it because they've invested so much of their time and energy cultivating a gay identity. A good number of men who say they are gay aren't gay/homosexual at all. They only say they are gay because they want a relationship with a guy. But a good number of them if they can't find a guy when they are horny will just have sex with a woman, and they are bisexual since they're sexually attracted to both genders. There are some gay men who are highly bigoted towards bisexual men. Just like there are some lesbians who dislike bisexual women and trans women. These factors are also reasons why men and women who are bisexual yet call themselves gay or lesbian do not want to come out. The dirty little secret that never gets addressed in the so called "gay" world is the fact that many gay identified men do go through a second coming out and re-identify as bisexual. These men may still overwhelmingly prefer men, but their orientation and identity are not exclusively towards men. Their attraction to both sexes manifests differently as well. The ridiculous protest that "sexual attraction to a woman just happened that one time, it doesn't mean anything, it's not going to happen again!" belies the fact if you really were a gay man you wouldn't have been turned on by a woman in the first place and to now assume that it would never happen again defies basic logic. I've found that if you dare to even allude to a man not being not quite "gay" (in other words bisexual) then you get the typical apoplectic reaction--oh no, no, no, he's gay, he's definitely gay, absolutely, no question about it, and on and on and on. So many gay men are so fucking bi-phobic it's unreal--and it's usually because they don't understand the concept in the first place and they've made no attempt to do so. Maybe youre meeting the wrong gay guys. i very very rarely meet gay men who are biphobic and i keep saying again and again on this site, "gay men love bisexual men!!" its almost a turn on. do u surround urself with gay guys cos u use a lot of superlatives to chastise them and label them and i can only assume that yoour breadth of experience is vast. as biphobic, also its better to find a way of describing biphobia that avoids being hompophobic and using the same lack of logic and presumptive knowledge that u criticise "biphobic" gay men for. what u may be mistaking for biphobia is the reaction gay men might be having to either ur stereotyping of them or ur own sense of homno acceptance. life is short and i guess being around suspicious, and discreet men remibds them too much of painful histories from which they have moved away fro for good. also if ur just looking for sex with gay men, why even go into the bi thing? if ur having sex with another man hes just going to assume ur gay ...unless of course that is the problem, a title u feel needs to be corrected even if for one night. insisting on being recognised as a bi man just for a blow job, when noone has even asked the question says something about the status some bi men imbue on their sexuality. when it comes to Top Trumps: Real MAN editition', does being bi outrank being gay in the race to win a full deck of man cards? i mean do these same bi men spend the same amount of time insisting to the women they hook up with that they shag guys too? "im sorry madame, i simply cant have sex with and your 2 gorgeous girlfriends, unless you accept the fact that i like cock! i do! i l love it and we cant have this orgy until ur cool with that" maybe playing the straight card, trumps all the others in your deck even the bi card.... ......rather biphobic that though isnt it? d

[dafydd]

You're on a bisexual site. What sort of stuff do you expect to read on here? I don't think that you should be so bi-phobic, and dismissive especially since you yourself have written about how you're bisexual and once identified as gay yet you want to fuck a woman, like to watch porn with women, and you get turned on by women. :rolleyes: oh i dunno maybe he thought itd be just a lot of anonymous avatars trading cock pics and talking about fucking of some kind or the other. it does have a rather generic title for a url. he wasnt being biphobic, this word is becoming a fad on here. he was being cheeky and ballsy...and that my friend is sexy. ive already contacted him to welcome him onboard. d

[tenni]

Sorry but it looks like there are not a lot of guys who see themselves as gay and have wanted to explore sex with a woman. I have read of some though. I guess that they are not on this site or haven't read your thread. You are quite young and like some have said, you may need to just explore it. I can understand your nervousness though I think that you mention that you do not want a relationship with a woman. A threesome might work for you and so you might try something like Craig's list asking for a couple if that is comfortable for you.

Where I come from this is perfectly legal and so if it isn't where you come from forgive me. I think that someone who has thought of himself as gay and wants to explore NSA(no strings attached) sex with a woman might want to find a female sex trade worker who is compassionate and understanding. Pay for play.

[BiDaveDtown]

Maybe youre meeting the wrong gay guys. i very very rarely meet gay men who are biphobic and i keep saying again and again on this site, "gay men love bisexual men!!" its almost a turn on. do u surround urself with gay guys cos u use a lot of superlatives to chastise them and label them and i can only assume that yoour breadth of experience is vast. as biphobic, also its better to find a way of describing biphobia that avoids being hompophobic and using the same lack of logic and presumptive knowledge that u criticise "biphobic" gay men for. what u may be mistaking for biphobia is the reaction gay men might be having to either ur stereotyping of them or ur own sense of homno acceptance. life is short and i guess being around suspicious, and discreet men remibds them too much of painful histories from which they have moved away fro for good. also if ur just looking for sex with gay men, why even go into the bi thing? if ur having sex with another man hes just going to assume ur gay ...unless of course that is the problem, a title u feel needs to be corrected even if for one night. insisting on being recognised as a bi man just for a blow job, when noone has even asked the question says something about the status some bi men imbue on their sexuality. when it comes to Top Trumps: Real MAN editition', does being bi outrank being gay in the race to win a full deck of man cards? i mean do these same bi men spend the same amount of time insisting to the women they hook up with that they shag guys too? "im sorry madame, i simply cant have sex with and your 2 gorgeous girlfriends, unless you accept the fact that i like cock! i do! i l love it and we cant have this orgy until ur cool with that" maybe playing the straight card, trumps all the others in your deck even the bi card.... ......rather biphobic that though isnt it? d I'm married, and we are monogamous so I'm not looking for hook ups and I'm not one of those discrete men who you wrote about. When I was younger and single I would meet gay men in bars and in various places and there was always some queen who would talk out of his ass with the typical biphobia like: "You're not bisexual you're gay and lying. I've never met a "true" bisexual man at all. All the bisexual men I've met all just eventually came out as gay men or they wound up being gay men who were afraid to come out. You're either a gay man or a hetero guy! Bisexuals don't care about gay rights, and we shouldn't care about their issues, rights, or equality since gay and lesbian rights are way more important! Bisexual men are confused and if you date or get into a relationship with one you'll never be able trust them! Bisexual men will just dump you for a woman! Pussy is so nasty I would NEVER date or sleep with a guy who has had sex with a woman! Bisexuals never know who or what they want sexually and it's best to avoid them!" I go to other web sites where there are gay men and even lesbians and whenever the topic of bisexuality comes up there's always one of them runs their mouth with the typical hypocritical bigotry and biphobia that I wrote about. I was not really that into having one night stands or hook ups. I pretty much only had sex with men and women who I was dating or in a relationship with so yes I would tell both men and women that I am bisexual since I'm out. No I never pretended to be "straight" like you wrote about. No I don't have issues with gay men but understandably I don't like how a lot of gay men seem to think that it's perfectly OK to be biphobic, practice bisexual erasure, and dismiss bisexuals and our issues all while claiming that they are all for LGBT equality, sexual freedom, and freedom of sexual expression.

[BiDaveDtown]

Sorry but it looks like there are not a lot of guys who say themselves as gay and want to explore sex with a woman. You are quite young and like some have said, you may need to just explore it. I think that you mention that you do not want a relationship with a woman. A threesome might work for you and so you might try something like Craig's list asking for a couple if that is comfortable for you. Where I come from this is perfectly legal and so if it isn't where you come from forgive me. I think that someone who has thought of themself as gay and wants to explore NSA(no strings attached) sex with a woman might want to find a female sex trade worker who is compassionate and understanding. Pay for play. Tenni not everyone wants to lose their virginity to some sleazy hooker. :rolleyes: What's going to happen the next time he wants sex with a woman? Or if he cums fast or cums and then wants to go for another round but the prostitute says "Sorry you have to pay for that!" If he wants to have sex with a woman he should casually date a woman like others have said, or just go to a bar and try to pick up a woman.

[tenni]

Well BiDave yes he could "date" a woman. He may not want that. I think that a professional may help him. Its an option for those who do not place moral judgment ("sleezy hooker") on sex trade workers a lot better than a woman in a bar. (He's only 18 btw) A sex trade worker knows more about dealing with his possible anxiety than a partially drunk young lady. I'm not referring to a street walker either.

[dafydd]

BiDave, it sounds like the men you mention are twats. but they don't represent 'gay men' anymore than you represent the experience that a lot of bisexual men have on the gay scene (certainly in London). In any case, a lot of those twatish gay men aren't often the ones who give a fig about sexual freedom, LGBT equality or any of that stuff. They're just self-centered twats. You're meeting the wrong gay men..! The truth is...and yes I confidently can say it is the TRUTH.....(and I'm going to put a sign up soon)

You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.

[BiDaveDtown]

Well BiDave yes he could "date" a woman. He may not want that. I think that a professional may help him. Its an option for those who do not place moral judgment ("sleezy hooker") on sex trade workers a lot better than a woman in a bar. (He's only 18 btw) A sex trade worker knows more about dealing with his possible anxiety than a partially drunk young lady. I'm not referring to a street walker either. Tenni they're prostitutes not miracle workers, therapists, or professional girlfriends. I've never paid for sex with any men or women. I know men who have gotten into paying male hustlers and female prostitues and it's not a good thing to get into doing. A lot of prostitutes even if they are not street level will charge a lot of money, and from what I've been told by men I've met who bought sex from prostitutes a lot of prostitues even the expensive ones like to rip off their johns or clients. This is not the way I would have wanted to lose my virginity to either a man or woman. I lost it very naturally, unexpectedly and it was with a woman I was dating my first year of college who attended my university. It was fluid and just "right". IMO that is how it should be. Sex is VERY important in human nature. You do not want your first experience to feel artificial or forced or manufactured, I think the OP should wait until the right woman comes along. Being a virgin is not something to be ashamed of at all. Anxiety can be solved in a number of ways. Waiting will make it that much better. You want a woman to be with you because she wants to for her pleasure and she wants you, not for money, not to get by, not because she has to or is being forced to by a pimp, madam, or brothel owner. Just because he is casually dating a woman it doesn't mean that he has to continue dating her, have the dating evolve into a serious major relationship, or even marry her unless of course he wants to do that. I mentioned bars since there are bars that allow people who are 18 to go and sit at the bar but they just can't drink booze. There are even dance clubs that allow people who are adults but not of age to drink booze and they can go there but just can't drink. Requirements for drinking do not stop underage drinking even in bars. When I was single I didn't have sex with any drunk men or women, and I never have had sex while drunk. If he can't get into a bar he should get out and meet women. It's not that difficult to do. There are even lots of websites he can go on to meet women his age who are single and want to date men.

[tenni]

Dave
What you write makes sense if that is what he wants. However in post 8 he wrote

"I my self will never date a woman. I would only want to try sex with a woman."

[BiDaveDtown]

Dave What you write makes sense if that is what he wants. However in post 8 he wrote "I my self will never date a woman. I would only want to try sex with a woman." Yes and there are better ways to do this, and find a woman who wants recreational sex besides hiring a female prostitute. See my previous post. Besides who is to say that he won't ever date a woman or have a relationship with a woman?

[ohbimale]

I think you should just go for it and have sex with a woman!

I am a bisexual guy who prefers men, so I guess it could be argued that I am a bisexual man who turned gay.

[biwilliams]

I honestly have to say that, in the end if you want to try sex with a woman by all means try to find a woman that is understanding in your plight and go for it. But at the same time I'm reading how people are saying that others must be meeting the wrong kind of gay men. I've spoken to quite a few gay men and the moment they hear I'm bi they turn their backs on me. I questioned one of them once and was told gay men don't want to get with a bi man because of the fear that if a "big breasted" woman were to walk by, then the gay man would be pushed to the back burner for the woman. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all gay men think that way, I've met a few that aren't but the vast majority that I have ever spoken to do have that mentality. Yes in some cases it does depend on who you're meeting, but on the other hand, when one type out weighs the other it's rather hard not to assume that most gay men steer away from bi.

[theisland559]

Ok for those who are still confused about me. Im still identifying as gay. Im curious yes, fucking a woman is an intrigueing thought. I back about a few months ago was becoming bipohobic i guess. I had bad experiences with bi's. All but one of my bf's are bi. Even though i know two are pretty much damn well gay.My first bf says he is bi, but he is absolutely repulsed by vagina. My second bf said he was gay wen i dated him. A few months later he said he was bi and has always been bi, yet one of his friends (girl) said he is too gay to function. He makes out with girls occasionaly. He lost his virginity in the 6th grade to his gf (to prove he wasnt gay cuz back at that age kids are homphobic). my 3rd bf was truly gay. my 4th bf was bi but i think i made him like guys more than girls lol. my 5th was bi but liked guys more yet had a very hetero mind. He was a sleazball anyway he had a gf while we dated and he always cheated on her ad had aex behind her back. My current bf is bi, but liles guys more. He is wtvr about vagina but we both joke and encpirage each other to try it. Ive never had a girlfriend nor do i want one. Yes i hav considered a bisexual 3-some. im surprised no one mentioned the kinsey scale. 1-6, 1 being hetero and 6 being homo. im like between a 4.85 and a 5.5 on the kinsey scale right now.

[dafydd]

I honestly have to say that, in the end if you want to try sex with a woman by all means try to find a woman that is understanding in your plight and go for it. But at the same time I'm reading how people are saying that others must be meeting the wrong kind of gay men. I've spoken to quite a few gay men and the moment they hear I'm bi they turn their backs on me. I questioned one of them once and was told gay men don't want to get with a bi man because of the fear that if a "big breasted" woman were to walk by, then the gay man would be pushed to the back burner for the woman. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all gay men think that way, I've met a few that aren't but the vast majority that I have ever spoken to do have that mentality. Yes in some cases it does depend on who you're meeting, but on the other hand, when one type out weighs the other it's rather hard not to assume that most gay men steer away from bi.

Biwilliams, these men you speak of are freaks. Freaks I tell you! How do you ever meet such Trampe Le Monde?

remember the golden rule, that is generally in play on any generic gay hook-up site:-

You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.

'Increase' here is the operative word...and obviously for it to have productive effect you've got to have talents and qualites to start with that make you man candy (even if it's only a penny sweet)
If you still manage to keep coming away empty-handed after revealing this bi wild card it's probably not your bisexuality thats turning them off.

D

[BiDaveDtown]

BiDave, it sounds like the men you mention are twats. but they don't represent 'gay men' anymore than you represent the experience that a lot of bisexual men have on the gay scene (certainly in London). In any case, a lot of those twatish gay men aren't often the ones who give a fig about sexual freedom, LGBT equality or any of that stuff. They're just self-centered twats. You're meeting the wrong gay men..! The truth is...and yes I confidently can say it is the TRUTH.....(and I'm going to put a sign up soon) You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual. You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual. You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual. You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual. Actually yes a lot of bisexual men do have the experiences of being told by gay men that bisexuality doesn't exist and that bisexual men should be avoided for dating and relationships by gay men. I read posts about this here on this site and on other sites all the time about how bisexual men and women encounter biphobia and bisexual erasure from gay men and lesbian women. There's a lot of biphobia and bisexual erasure in the so called LGBT community and it comes from gay men and lesbian women. Gay men and lesbian women who are biphobic and practice bisexual erasure are just as hypocritical and as bad if not worse than homophobic and biphobic straight people, and just as bad as certain Conservative Politicians and religious leaders. As I wrote in my other post when I was single before I was married I was not into hook ups, or what people call casual/recreational sex, or NSA encounters. If you're into them it's fine but it's not something I was into with men or women.

[dafydd]

Well not in the UK mate, totally different scenario. I think it must be because we look after our LGBT people a lot better. They're less fractious, or prone to in fighting... Or they don't feel the burden of inequality as acutely as you guys. Of course a great way to challenge biphobia is to be out and proud yourself to everyone. Im aassuming you are bidave cos if you're not, quite frankly you're argument against biphobics seems rather odd. Er surely the biggest perpetrators of so called "bi-erasure" are closeted bisexuals who aren't out to the wider world.
As for people's experience on this site, there never used to be quite such a scapegoating of gay men as the bisexual nemesis and the reason bi guys couldnt get laid, and there was more discussion about working through personal issues of pride and shame and combatting heteronormativity and gender stereotypes. BIphobia IS an important Issue and where better to discuss than here. But now people use the term incorrectly andalmost ubiquitously so it sometimes reads as nothing more than an catchphrase, rarely critiqued and never to be seen as something bisexuals themselves who are not out perpetuate.
People almost speak the hallowed words "biphobia/bi-erasure" and assume that alone innures them against such accusations or responsibilities themselves. It doesn't, and just makes anonymous members who don't show their faces look rather silly when they argue its gravity. How can you erase something that you cant see in the first place, .. and really why would you need to?

[BiDaveDtown]

Well not in the UK mate, totally different scenario. I think it must be because we look after our LGBT people a lot better. They're less fractious, or prone to in fighting... Or they don't feel the burden of inequality as acutely as you guys. Of course a great way to challenge biphobia is to be out and proud yourself to everyone. Im aassuming you are bidave cos if you're not, quite frankly you're argument against biphobics seems rather odd. Er surely the biggest perpetrators of so called "bi-erasure" are closeted bisexuals who aren't out to the wider world. As for people's experience on this site, there never used to be quite such a scapegoating of gay men as the bisexual nemesis and the reason bi guys couldnt get laid, and there was more discussion about working through personal issues of pride and shame and combatting heteronormativity and gender stereotypes. BIphobia IS an important Issue and where better to discuss than here. But now people use the term incorrectly andalmost ubiquitously so it sometimes reads as nothing more than an catchphrase, rarely critiqued and never to be seen as something bisexuals themselves who are not out perpetuate. People almost speak the hallowed words "biphobia/bi-erasure" and assume that alone innures them against such accusations or responsibilities themselves. It doesn't, and just makes anonymous members who don't show their faces look rather silly when they argue its gravity. How can you erase something that you cant see in the first place, .. and really why would you need to? I'm out about my bisexuality but I realize that not everyone can be out about their sexuality, or even wants to be. Speaking of the UK I have read posts on this site by people from the UK where they describe how there's a lot of biphobia there and bisexual erasure in your media such as the article posted.

[theisland559]

Im not biphobic. I was for a short period of time.

[Gearbox]

Well not in the UK mate, totally different scenario.
Dafydd, sweetheart, they prob won't mess with you because your lovely. So they go and pick on poor me instead.:(
It's not rampant. Not every gay bloke is on a crusade to destroy all that's bi. But enough to make me consider changing my hookup site sexuality to 'gay' and avoid the silliness of it all. I know a few bi's that have done just that.:bigrin:
I can only speak about the on-line sex hookup side of it, but you'd think that that would decrease your chances of encountering biphobia, as it's just about 2 blokes having sex. No exchange of philosophy needed. But no! Some think they have a divine right (and compulsion) to 'inform' you that your sexuality doesn't exist etc.
Now they can see what I'm down as on my profile, but STILL want to phone me, meet me, message me to tell me that I'm 'kidding myself'.:eek2:
Not ALL biphobic are intentionally bigoted bastards, but some are! Some are just confused about it all, and who could blame them? They hear about bi's from those gays who may have met bi's that were not bi at all, or they were bi and complete twats too.
So as a bi, you have to account for that. Be understanding of the varied notions about you before they know you. Become VISIBLE to them as a person in your own right. BUT to some gays you are never visible nor are you anything other than what they say you are.
Such a waste of time, when all you want is a good shag.:suave:

[darkeyes]

Well not in the UK mate, totally different scenario. I think it must be because we look after our LGBT people a lot better. They're less fractious, or prone to in fighting... Or they don't feel the burden of inequality as acutely as you guys. Of course a great way to challenge biphobia is to be out and proud yourself to everyone. Im aassuming you are bidave cos if you're not, quite frankly you're argument against biphobics seems rather odd. Er surely the biggest perpetrators of so called "bi-erasure" are closeted bisexuals who aren't out to the wider world.
As for people's experience on this site, there never used to be quite such a scapegoating of gay men as the bisexual nemesis and the reason bi guys couldnt get laid, and there was more discussion about working through personal issues of pride and shame and combatting heteronormativity and gender stereotypes. BIphobia IS an important Issue and where better to discuss than here. But now people use the term incorrectly andalmost ubiquitously so it sometimes reads as nothing more than an catchphrase, rarely critiqued and never to be seen as something bisexuals themselves who are not out perpetuate.
People almost speak the hallowed words "biphobia/bi-erasure" and assume that alone innures them against such accusations or responsibilities themselves. It doesn't, and just makes anonymous members who don't show their faces look rather silly when they argue its gravity. How can you erase something that you cant see in the first place, .. and really why would you need to?
I tend to go along with u here Daffy.. although bi-phobia has existed here too among some in the lesbian and gay communtiies I don't think anywhere near to the same degree as in North America.. or at least bisexuals from North America claim... but it is true that bisexuals, men more than women seem to be becoming more resentful of bi-erasure and bi-invisibility and what they seem to perceive as bi-phobia from the gay community.. the strength of feeling is a relatively recent phenomenon in the UK and is still less than north America but it is gaining ground.. on .com there has been the occasional niggle always about the gay community but in the last couple of years it has really taken off.. it is often said that what America does today we do tomorrow.. and there is truth in that.. whether it is a good or bad thing in respect of gay/bi sexuality I think u can guess where I stand on the issue.. where u are right is that until the bisexual community really get to grips with their own responsibility and themselves become less invisible, there will be little progress... it is no use blaming the lesbian and gay communities for the refusal of so many bisexuals to make themselves visible and fight their own corner..

[PeterNZ]

Im not biphobic. I was for a short period of time. umm, ok? O_o" i dont need to hear the plight of bisexual men and women -.- I'd say that you're still biphobic and practice bisexual erasure based on how dismissive you are about bisexuals and our issues and how we do experience biphobia from gay men and lesbian women. Then again that's what you've learned to do towards bisexuals from the gay and lesbian community and from gay men.

[elian]

People can only write from their own experiences, and the only way to get experience is to live your life. There's no sense in going around miserable all the time. I think it is important to be happy FOR people, to be happy WITH people and just appreciate sharing what you have in the present moment as a gift. If I get to spend time with a good friend I'm not going to worry whether or not they are straight, bi, gay or trans - just enjoy their company.

I guess I don't have any anything else useful to contribute to the conversation, I already told you about my "gay to bi" experience - and I still love certain men, I still adore certain women but am shy around them...it is who I am and because of that frankly I really don't care what anyone else "thinks I should be" or do or say or act..as long as I treat other people with respect my love life is none of their business.

[Geralo16]

65 yr old male here. Grew up at a time that defined "queers" as an aberration. "Bi" didn't exist. Ever desire a guy? Oh- you're a fag. end of story. Like everyone, I was (and am) obsessed with sex. Girls were the real mystery, thus the attraction. The sexual revolution of the late 60's (and expansion of public porn in the 70's) depicted gay sex to the general public - in more refined films than the early stag flics. Watching fisting, even milder anal sex was repulsive - but gradually less so. Never could imagine any pleasure there.... So I was very straight, but curious and not judgemental about gays. Bi? Oh, just "Gay, light". Then after years of marital discord and celibacy, got involved with a Bi married friend. I guess that made me officially Bi. Years later, during a time of intoxication, experienced receiving anally from a much younger guy. I liked it - but wonder about if I would have if I had been totally sober at the time(?).
My Point: Humans (like the porpoise) like sex. Males, in particular, are not terribly picky. The whole gay/Bi/Straight nomenclature impies a stratification. Sexual preference is really a temporal-dependent phenomenon for many (if not all) people. And it is also a variable in degree for individuals. Thus, at some time you may be more Gay, or another time be more Bi, or still another time be totally Straight. Per current definitions, that seems to me to imply that everyone is Bi. Thus, most people must inhibit their curiosity or proclivity (even if weak) to insure their desired definition as Gay or Straight.
Just a thought. Our minds are our most controlling sexual organ. And the most complex.
Also: I can't understand the change in modern society. We've got kids of 15 to 18 years of age declaring that they are Gay. OK, maybe ... HOW the HELL do they really KNOW at that age!

[IanBorthwick]

their own responsibility and themselves become less invisible, there will be little progress... it is no use blaming the lesbian and gay communities for the refusal of so many bisexuals to make themselves visible and fight their own corner..

And were I to use this flawed logic then women who are raped only have themselves to blame for their oppression and assaults. Fran, if you don't think your logic is bad, it's because you aren't using any. In baseball terms, you struck out with this piece of morally bankrupt conceit you put into print. Your histrionics has the tail wagging the dog, because in the US it was the Bisexuals standing up in the 60s for the homosexual community and then we got punted out of it by YOU. And you admit that it happens here first, so it eventually occurred in England too just this way, so pat on the head for Franny, you don't get it all wrong. Just most of it, most of the time.

You ought to listen to others who know better and are as old as you are sometimes. Living without a sounding board for facts is living in the back corner of Disney's basement, it's all Fantasyland.

Also wanted to point something out I am seeing a lot here. People saying THEIR life experiences invalidate others. Someone, I don't care who said it, spouted that bisexuality mentioned to a gay guy will make him pecker up and start trying to get cosy VERY OFTEN. Yet in many people's life experiences that has had the exact opposite effect. Then when they point this out to them they are doused in shaming tactics in a literal appeal to force, or what we call the Pink Whip. IE "I get a ton of dick this way, there must be something wrong with you".

This logical fallacy used to drive me to distraction until I realized it's also related to what I call "Rose Tint My World" a la RHPS, and I feel badly for those who employ it. They simply have no idea because they'd rather not know. The bad occurrences around them have no bearing on them for the simple fact they choose not to see it when it's spoken of. Well, it's your right to live in a fantasyland, I won't go to your real estate and rock it, but the rest of us who live in the real world know better.

And in this one case, those who are abused CAN say that their life experiences trump the one with the Rose Tinted Glasses on for one logical infallible test.

If you claim biphobia/erasure/prejudice doesn't exist, the first time it is reported you are WRONG. not 5%. not 20%, 100% wrong. Int he same fashion if you say there are no such things as pink rabbits, the first time one is produced or reported on you are incontrovertibly WRONG. Why? Is it opinion based? No! It's a fact! Otherwise your argument that their life experiences are wrong is based on the idea that they are somehow confused, self-vcitimizing, or some other piss poor excuse to rationalize your victim blaming.

Cognitive Dissonance is the ultimate cop out, and those who allow themselves to engage in it are propagandists for the soothing of their own conscience.

[PeterNZ]

And were I to use this flawed logic then women who are raped only have themselves to blame for their oppression and assaults. Fran, if you don't think your logic is bad, it's because you aren't using any. In baseball terms, you struck out with this piece of morally bankrupt conceit you put into print. Your histrionics has the tail wagging the dog, because in the US it was the Bisexuals standing up in the 60s for the homosexual community and then we got punted out of it by YOU. And you admit that it happens here first, so it eventually occurred in England too just this way, so pat on the head for Franny, you don't get it all wrong. Just most of it, most of the time. You ought to listen to others who know better and are as old as you are sometimes. Living without a sounding board for facts is living in the back corner of Disney's basement, it's all Fantasyland. Also wanted to point something out I am seeing a lot here. People saying THEIR life experiences invalidate others. Someone, I don't care who said it, spouted that bisexuality mentioned to a gay guy will make him pecker up and start trying to get cosy VERY OFTEN. Yet in many people's life experiences that has had the exact opposite effect. Then when they point this out to them they are doused in shaming tactics in a literal appeal to force, or what we call the Pink Whip. IE "I get a ton of dick this way, there must be something wrong with you". This logical fallacy used to drive me to distraction until I realized it's also related to what I call "Rose Tint My World" a la RHPS, and I feel badly for those who employ it. They simply have no idea because they'd rather not know. The bad occurrences around them have no bearing on them for the simple fact they choose not to see it when it's spoken of. Well, it's your right to live in a fantasyland, I won't go to your real estate and rock it, but the rest of us who live in the real world know better. And in this one case, those who are abused CAN say that their life experiences trump the one with the Rose Tinted Glasses on for one logical infallible test. If you claim biphobia/erasure/prejudice doesn't exist, the first time it is reported you are WRONG. not 5%. not 20%, 100% wrong. Int he same fashion if you say there are no such things as pink rabbits, the first time one is produced or reported on you are incontrovertibly WRONG. Why? Is it opinion based? No! It's a fact! Otherwise your argument that their life experiences are wrong is based on the idea that they are somehow confused, self-vcitimizing, or some other piss poor excuse to rationalize your victim blaming. Cognitive Dissonance is the ultimate cop out, and those who allow themselves to engage in it are propagandists for the soothing of their own conscience. Quoted for motherfucking truth!

[darkeyes]

And were I to use this flawed logic then women who are raped only have themselves to blame for their oppression and assaults. Fran, if you don't think your logic is bad, it's because you aren't using any. In baseball terms, you struck out with this piece of morally bankrupt conceit you put into print. Your histrionics has the tail wagging the dog, because in the US it was the Bisexuals standing up in the 60s for the homosexual community and then we got punted out of it by YOU. And you admit that it happens here first, so it eventually occurred in England too just this way, so pat on the head for Franny, you don't get it all wrong. Just most of it, most of the time.

You ought to listen to others who know better and are as old as you are sometimes. Living without a sounding board for facts is living in the back corner of Disney's basement, it's all Fantasyland.

Also wanted to point something out I am seeing a lot here. People saying THEIR life experiences invalidate others. Someone, I don't care who said it, spouted that bisexuality mentioned to a gay guy will make him pecker up and start trying to get cosy VERY OFTEN. Yet in many people's life experiences that has had the exact opposite effect. Then when they point this out to them they are doused in shaming tactics in a literal appeal to force, or what we call the Pink Whip. IE "I get a ton of dick this way, there must be something wrong with you".

This logical fallacy used to drive me to distraction until I realized it's also related to what I call "Rose Tint My World" a la RHPS, and I feel badly for those who employ it. They simply have no idea because they'd rather not know. The bad occurrences around them have no bearing on them for the simple fact they choose not to see it when it's spoken of. Well, it's your right to live in a fantasyland, I won't go to your real estate and rock it, but the rest of us who live in the real world know better.

And in this one case, those who are abused CAN say that their life experiences trump the one with the Rose Tinted Glasses on for one logical infallible test.

If you claim biphobia/erasure/prejudice doesn't exist, the first time it is reported you are WRONG. not 5%. not 20%, 100% wrong. Int he same fashion if you say there are no such things as pink rabbits, the first time one is produced or reported on you are incontrovertibly WRONG. Why? Is it opinion based? No! It's a fact! Otherwise your argument that their life experiences are wrong is based on the idea that they are somehow confused, self-vcitimizing, or some other piss poor excuse to rationalize your victim blaming.

Cognitive Dissonance is the ultimate cop out, and those who allow themselves to engage in it are propagandists for the soothing of their own conscience.
Fantasyland? Maybe.. we will see in time.. sometimes I wish people would read what I say and not rant about what they think I have said.. I don't and never have denied bi-phobia, erasure and invisibility exist but I do not blame my kind, or at least all of my kind for it and those who do suffer these agues of prejudice I do not blame them for all of it.. much is the responsibility of bisexuals themselves.. as for the rest? Histrionics? Maybe but u should consider your own post before you accuse others of histrionics..

[elian]

and to go completely off topic since the thread seems headed there anyway no matter what I do, what should be the slogan of this political enterprise? I was thinking of something along the "We're here, get used to it" line but I think I like the pictures of Uncle Sam better, "WE WANT YOU (in bed)" ?? or maybe, "Bi means I don't just sleep with my wife"

Seriously? I wish the world was better than this, more compassionate. I know we've all only been here for a few hundred years and a wise person accepts that everyone is on their own journey to understanding but at times it still seems like kindergarten. I am happy for the progress we've made, even with the so called "bi erasure" .. it's still a hundred times better than even a decade ago.

[IanBorthwick]

I am happy for the progress we've made, even with the so called "bi erasure" .. it's still a hundred times better than even a decade ago.


And the reason it IS 100 times better, which is still piss poor imho, is that we have banded together and created a voice online that is hard to impossible to censure or shout down. This allows rise to the underdog and creates a medium in which they can find they are NOT alone and people like Fran can be told off and then put on ignore...as I have had her on ignore for almost a soothing year. But it has nothing to do with those who would erase us of relaxing or bettering their stance. To the contrary, with pseudo-scientists creating straw man studies to prove male bisexuals don't exist and female bisexuality is "natural" the full court press is ON. Not many will note or ever hear about the fact these were contested at once and disproven soundly with follow up studies, no the dame is done and the Gay and Lesbian community got the ability to wave another flag about us, and then cry foul when we point out their pundits and talking heads(see Dan Savage the Prick) use heavy handed tactics to try and back us off or threaten, and even use false apologies laden with criticism for US in the text.

No, I wouldn't call any G or L my ally at this point as I have few I would trust. And most of those that have come to this site are in it for shits and giggles and acting like divas, Avatars of Immaculacy. No level of reality check gets them off their high horses. SO word to the wise, don't let ANY of them shame you into being quiet!

[darkeyes]

And the reason it IS 100 times better, which is still piss poor imho, is that we have banded together and created a voice online that is hard to impossible to censure or shout down. This allows rise to the underdog and creates a medium in which they can find they are NOT alone and people like Fran can be told off and then put on ignore...as I have had her on ignore for almost a soothing year.


U lil fibber u... unless ur idea and mine of what ignoring means is different..;)

[elian]

Creating an online community to avoid censure is a form of action, I mean, if I hadn't found this site I would probably STILL be trying to figure out if I was gay or straight. So for people to say we don't do anything toward advancing the cause is kind of peculiar.

Anything can be taken to extremes I guess, as people are bound to do when they perceive a lot of stress in the environment.

I don't mind theisland's comments because I remember what it was like when I was @ 18 years old..you only (really) know something by experience and with time he will gain his.

[dafydd]

And were I to use this flawed logic then women who are raped only have themselves to blame for their oppression and assaults. Fran, if you don't think your logic is bad, it's because you aren't using any. In baseball terms, you struck out with this piece of morally bankrupt conceit you put into print. Your histrionics has the tail wagging the dog, because in the US it was the Bisexuals standing up in the 60s for the homosexual community and then we got punted out of it by YOU. And you admit that it happens here first, so it eventually occurred in England too just this way, so pat on the head for Franny, you don't get it all wrong. Just most of it, most of the time. You ought to listen to others who know better and are as old as you are sometimes. Living without a sounding board for facts is living in the back corner of Disney's basement, it's all Fantasyland. Also wanted to point something out I am seeing a lot here. People saying THEIR life experiences invalidate others. Someone, I don't care who said it, spouted that bisexuality mentioned to a gay guy will make him pecker up and start trying to get cosy VERY OFTEN. Yet in many people's life experiences that has had the exact opposite effect. Then when they point this out to them they are doused in shaming tactics in a literal appeal to force, or what we call the Pink Whip. IE "I get a ton of dick this way, there must be something wrong with you". This logical fallacy used to drive me to distraction until I realized it's also related to what I call "Rose Tint My World" a la RHPS, and I feel badly for those who employ it. They simply have no idea because they'd rather not know. The bad occurrences around them have no bearing on them for the simple fact they choose not to see it when it's spoken of. Well, it's your right to live in a fantasyland, I won't go to your real estate and rock it, but the rest of us who live in the real world know better. And in this one case, those who are abused CAN say that their life experiences trump the one with the Rose Tinted Glasses on for one logical infallible test. If you claim biphobia/erasure/prejudice doesn't exist, the first time it is reported you are WRONG. not 5%. not 20%, 100% wrong. Int he same fashion if you say there are no such things as pink rabbits, the first time one is produced or reported on you are incontrovertibly WRONG. Why? Is it opinion based? No! It's a fact! Otherwise your argument that their life experiences are wrong is based on the idea that they are somehow confused, self-vcitimizing, or some other piss poor excuse to rationalize your victim blaming. Cognitive Dissonance is the ultimate cop out, and those who allow themselves to engage in it are propagandists for the soothing of their own conscience. sounds like a lot of cognitive dissonance to me....; ) not sure anyone is arguing that biphobia doesnt exist... biphobic gays might be the neighbours from hell, but they are not the biggest enemy, though youd be hard pressed to see as much discourse on anything else here these days. ian are you completely 'out'? d

[The Bisexual Virgin]

BiDave, it sounds like the men you mention are twats. but they don't represent 'gay men' anymore than you represent the experience that a lot of bisexual men have on the gay scene (certainly in London). In any case, a lot of those twatish gay men aren't often the ones who give a fig about sexual freedom, LGBT equality or any of that stuff. They're just self-centered twats. You're meeting the wrong gay men..! The truth is...and yes I confidently can say it is the TRUTH.....(and I'm going to put a sign up soon)

You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.

Hmm,I wonder why?

[love26t9]

Damn you all have me so confused. I would gladly fuck a woman or a guy. Eat pussy or cock. You serve sex to me and i will take it. Damn don't confuse me I AM BI-SEXUAL

[dafydd]

Hmm,I wonder why?

Who cares why? It's fucking, not Freud.

[darkeyes]

Who cares why? It's fucking, not Freud.

,,which isn't rocket science is it, daffy?

[darkeyes]

BiDave, it sounds like the men you mention are twats. but they don't represent 'gay men' anymore than you represent the experience that a lot of bisexual men have on the gay scene (certainly in London). In any case, a lot of those twatish gay men aren't often the ones who give a fig about sexual freedom, LGBT equality or any of that stuff. They're just self-centered twats. You're meeting the wrong gay men..! The truth is...and yes I confidently can say it is the TRUTH.....(and I'm going to put a sign up soon)

You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
... how I missed this I have no idea.. ta daffy... much the same goes for girls tellin' lessies the same thing....

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Who cares why? It's fucking, not Freud.

Seriously. I do wonder why? because I am thinking that gay men love to compete with women, when trying to get a bisexual man.And love the fact that they know they will win. But then again that's me thinking this.:rolleyes:

[Bayoubear9]

Seriously. I do wonder why? because I am thinking that gay men love to compete with women, when trying to get a bisexual man.And love the fact that they know they will win. But then again that's me thinking this.:rolleyes:

So true. I've played that game from both sides and that's pretty much how it goes. Assclowns that have an issue with my being bisexual are very few and far between. The vast majority gladly accept the challenge and the games begin. The sexual aspects of bi/gay relationships are as awesome as they are limitless. On a strictly social level I do recognize some attitudes from gay friends. Nothing hostile- open and friendly with a hint of disdain. One gay friend I work with gave me 20 questions one day at lunch recently. The idea of developing a deep nurturing relationship with a man and a woman both was more than he could wrap his head around. I've never known what its like not to.

[The Bisexual Virgin]

So true. I've played that game from both sides and that's pretty much how it goes. Assclowns that have an issue with my being bisexual are very few and far between. The vast majority gladly accept the challenge and the games begin. The sexual aspects of bi/gay relationships are as awesome as they are limitless. On a strictly social level I do recognize some attitudes from gay friends. Nothing hostile- open and friendly with a hint of disdain. One gay friend I work with gave me 20 questions one day at lunch recently. The idea of developing a deep nurturing relationship with a man and a woman both was more than he could wrap his head around. I've never known what its like not to.

I knew it. And it's fucking sad, but it's the truth I guess, and I have to say this maybe some bisexual men might need to stay in gay relationships,because women love can compete with other women, but no woman can compete with a man. I see this everyday women trying to compete with other women for the affections of a man for the fun of it, whenever I am in public. Whether they are dress to kill, or the way they act. And with being said I can't even imagine how can a woman compete with a gay man, for the affections of a bisexual man.

[Bayoubear9]

I knew it. And it's fucking sad, but it's the truth I guess, and I have to say this maybe some bisexual men might need to stay in gay relationships,because women love can compete with other women, but no woman can compete with a man. I see this everyday women trying to compete with other women for the affections of a man for the fun of it, whenever I am in public. Whether they are dress to kill, or the way they act. And with being said I can't even imagine how can a woman compete with a gay man, for the affections of a bisexual man.

Not always, I was making reference to hookups and playtime primarily. I had a boyfriend when I started dating my now wife. It's the person... not the gender... when it comes to relationships of substance. In my humble opinion anyway.

That being said, even for hookups- there have been many times when out at the club late late late at night and I still had no idea who I might end up with for the rest of the night. 'Bout the same number of women to men I guess. You do have one very valid idea tho in that its not much of a competition- some hunky muscle bear or a confused college girl with daddy issues wanting to play mind games with others for her amusement. Obvious choice every time. :)

[The Bisexual Virgin]

I guess that big hunk of a bear, huh? althought you could show that young girl that likes to play mind games a thing or two.:oh:

[Bayoubear9]

I guess that big hunk of a bear, huh? althought you could show that young girl that likes to play mind games a thing or two.:oh:

Been a few years but I seem to remember a couple times when I didnt pick the bear. One I had decided before we were even halfway done with dinner I was dropping her off at her place very soon. which i did. The other lasted a weekend. No regrets there but not the best experience.

As far as actively making it a point to really mind-fuck someone and manipulate them for my own amusement I've only done that once. I found out I was a bet between two sisters that lived in my apartment building back when i was in college. Knowing they were playing me made it much easier for me to play them in return. Did them both on subsequent days, pitted them against one another, and had one of my female playmates spend the nights with me for about the next week to make the point "leave me alone".

[tenni]

It is a bit of a shame that this thread has deviated so far away from the OP's intent and question.

I do wonder why? No posters here have moved from being gay to bisexuality? Disrespect for his plight?

[Bayoubear9]

I'm guilty too, sorry, I just picked a spot in conversation and jumped in. To the OP, I dont know of anyone that self-identified as "gay" someday changing that over to "bisexual". I have been in some situations where one or more members of an MMF or FFM were gay but outside the confines of an afternoon of sex they had no interest in the opposite gender. I've had a lot of gay friends, both men and women, that at some point got a little curious and acted on it however more oft than not it was a one-time deal.

[darkeyes]

It is a bit of a shame that this thread has deviated so far away from the OP's intent and question.

I do wonder why? No posters here have moved from being gay to bisexuality? Disrespect for his plight?
Well tenni babes.. just 2 makeya day, me cousin's m8, gay all his adult life, met girl last year and has told the world he is bi... don't think u wud approve but her fave joke is that she "has str8tened him out".. I think it's hysterically funny considerin'... even if not quite 100% accurate..

[IanBorthwick]

sounds like a lot of cognitive dissonance to me....; ) not sure anyone is arguing that biphobia doesnt exist... biphobic gays might be the neighbours from hell, but they are not the biggest enemy, though youd be hard pressed to see as much discourse on anything else here these days. ian are you completely 'out'? d


Ok, tackling this from the beginning to the end. MY stance is far from Dissonant, as you were one espousing the "Reality" that being out and proclaiming your bisexuality create more opportunities despite being told by others in your own land that they do not share that experience. In short, you're the odd man out. Dissonance, thy name is Daffyd.

As for Biphobic men not being the greatest enemy of bisexual men, that's YOUR opinion, you're entitled to it. But it's still an opinion. In point of fact the man who created the study I mentioned whereby men were "proven" to not be able to be bisexual is a classic Biphobic gay man. If this is not the definition of dangerous, then I supposes the Nazis weren't dangerous with their ideas and guns and rounding up jews....oh wait! A dangerously ignorant stand point, when pushed hard as though true, was Hitler's biggest motto in getting ideas across so he could push controls and fears into the society of his people. This is a classic way to undermine people politically and socially. And therefore is how the ball is dribbled here in the US of A, and no doubt there in the UK. I have lost the link on the man responsible for the faked study and his agency was partly responsible for the "Female Bisexuality" study also, but Drew may put links to it since it was on this website at one point or another and I have no desire to go searching through all the forums threads for it. Feel free to go looking yourself, it's there.

As for hard pressed to find discourse to the contrary of the realities of Biphobia, well my GOD, where are you? Of course you find people blathering that it doesn't exist. Don't you read Fran's and your own posts? So of COURSE you're going to find people standing up and wagging a finger as well as showing the festering pile of horse pucker we're being told is edible fudge by you to be what it is, manure.

Now as for am I completely out, is that REALLY any of your fucking business? Is it? Is it the business of the world? Does it change the world around me where I tell the people I know where I stick my dick? No. It's not. But the fact is I am out to the entire world, and have been for years. I go to Pride with my shirt that says in BiPride Colors,"Bisexual, not greedy, not confused!" And I have said it many times, as well as stated I am a part of Adrienne Williams "I Am VISIBLE" Campaign. I correct people when they speak ill of bisexuals both at work and in public. I do not stand for the nonsense and as a result was told by a lesbian that I shouldn't be so out and proud! For it I was cast from my niece and nephew's lives by my sister and Fran defended that morally destitute act a year or so ago when I told her I didn't want to hear her shit.

Am I out? Daffyd, the question is are YOU out and telling those boys you are with that YOU ARE BISEXUAL AND DON'T FORGET IT?


BiDave, it sounds like the men you mention are twats. but they don't represent 'gay men' anymore than you represent the experience that a lot of bisexual men have on the gay scene (certainly in London). In any case, a lot of those twatish gay men aren't often the ones who give a fig about sexual freedom, LGBT equality or any of that stuff. They're just self-centered twats. You're meeting the wrong gay men..! The truth is...and yes I confidently can say it is the TRUTH.....(and I'm going to put a sign up soon)

Now to deal with your "Truth" we get back to facing your OPINION is being pushed as FACT still. Put up all the signs you want, scream and yell you are correct and no one else is, but you are still pushing opinion without a shred of fact. And it still falls apart on the logical fallibility test I stated before:

If you claim there are no such things as Pink Rabbits, the first time one it found or reported on you are not 5% wrong, you are not 15% wrong, you are 100% WRONG!

Same logical progression here. You haven't heard just one or two people say this, you have seen MANY, and if you haven't, go back to my last post where I spoke of Rose Tint My World. Life is best lived eyes open, head up. Since many, and many more OFF this forum, report it, you cannot say what reality is when you dismiss the facts so handily.



Assclowns that have an issue with my being bisexual are very few and far between.

Ah yes, but NOT nonexistent. And taking into account you live in a Red State where most LBGT will keep their head WISELY down and avoid notice or strife, this is not going to be uncommon. A classic case of saying your experience is the norm and any one who differs is a fool. The conceit involved is understandable, but still an opinion and not a fact.


I knew it. And it's fucking sad, but it's the truth I guess, and I have to say this maybe some bisexual men might need to stay in gay relationships,because women love can compete with other women, but no woman can compete with a man. I see this everyday women trying to compete with other women for the affections of a man for the fun of it, whenever I am in public. Whether they are dress to kill, or the way they act. And with being said I can't even imagine how can a woman compete with a gay man, for the affections of a bisexual man.

Wanted to include THIS for completeness. This is ANOTHER example of an opinion, based on life experience and Rose Tint My World, being claimed as fact, as "Truth" and has nothing but opinion throughout.

The point of this thread was to ask if anyone else has migrated to bisexuality due to feelings about women, in fact it is ALL ABOUT the self imposed version of BiErasaure. This needs to be back on track and stop pushing the panic button of ignorance every time someone points out what the underlying reason is for the ver PURPOSE of this thread! YOu don't like it, lump it. Shame is not EVER going to make me quiet.

[darkeyes]

Now as for am I completely out, is that REALLY any of your fucking business? Is it? Is it the business of the world? Does it change the world around me where I tell the people I know where I stick my dick? No. It's not. But the fact is I am out to the entire world, and have been for years. I go to Pride with my shirt that says in BiPride Colors,"Bisexual, not greedy, not confused!" And I have said it many times, as well as stated I am a part of Adrienne Williams "I Am VISIBLE" Campaign. I correct people when they speak ill of bisexuals both at work and in public. I do not stand for the nonsense and as a result was told by a lesbian that I shouldn't be so out and proud! For it I was cast from my niece and nephew's lives by my sister and Fran defended that morally destitute act a year or so ago when I told her I didn't want to hear her shit.

I am rather pleased you are out and that you defend bisexuals.. as to being proud.. well that's quite another matter.. I am not proud of being lesbian, I just am.. it is a part of me.. I sure as hell am not ashamed of it any more than u should be of your bisexuality. I too as it happens defend bisexuals and bisexuality whenever I hear them spoken ill of... this I have done since my schooldays and even before when I did not even know the term.. I did not always consider myself lesbian.. that is quite a late development for me. Out and proud I can live with and have no problem with it if that is how you feel... out is one thing.. defending and promoting the interests of bisexuals... fighting for your rights to be and be accepted as being equal to any of any other sexuality.. if only every bisexual could and would... I do have a problem with the pride but that is a personal thing and part of how I was raised... I was brought up to have respect for myself but pride? Pride just isn't me.... but how out and proud u decide to be is your affair and however much that is will never find any criticism from my corner..

I do not remember this statement of mine, but I do know that if I made any such statement it would not be entirely in the context you have made it out to be. If u were cast from the lives of your neice and nephew because of what you are, how you act and how u defend ur right to be and the rights of other bisexuals then I condemn that for what it was.. an appalling act of selfish bigotry which no decent person should ever approve.. if I did indeed say something like you claim I have no doubt there was more to it than u make out.. but in the end it is a parent's right to decide who their children have contact with until those children are old enough to decide for themselves unless and until there is a legal address of some sort.... we may not like it, and we may think it appalling and bigoted, but that is how it is..

[IanBorthwick]

Ok, I'm going to ask officially that people STOP telling me what Fran says. And since this thread is completely hijacked, I'm going to put in my two-cents.


Why would I want to jump on your back Ian, sweetie? Find it all so sad ....

I hope you are not referring to me as a mysandrist though, cos while I am often critical of the lesser mortal I am incredibly fond of them and criticism never comes from any sense of mysandry but out of observation and deeply held opinions....

This little NUGGET of your wisdom said,"Oh Ian, sorry you're down, it's her right to do that, and don't call me a mysandryst JUST because I think ill of men and call them LESSER mortals ignorantly. The Bold and Italics were mine and prior posts in that had told you not to jump up my back on purpose, then you did so negligently, with as much thought as a cat claws up your furniture. You've been on my ignore ever since, and now I am asking my friends NOT to tell me what you say ANYMORE because I truly don't need to hear it. Your issues with this community and bisexuals is VERY clear to anyone watching, listening, reading. You are bigoted to them, have issues with men, think them less than yourself when the reality is SO much different than you will ever accept.

I hope and pray that IF you have boy children and they are growing you can see the world that hate has mandated exist both by the GL community on Bisexuals and the mysandrists and manginas on men. This world and the idea of privilege men supposedly enjoy allows you free rein to rake us up and down when your opinion is given equal weight to fact, and allowed to bullseye someone when they are lowest as if it was your JOB to make sure the poor jerk gets it in the teeth because life already knocked them on their ass. I truly hope you do, because only through the suffering of others and ourselves are we able to learn what hate is, because even shown in a mirror we do not see it for its ugliness.

The answers are out there, Fran, not that you will ever noptice them until you are ready to see. Until then, don't reply to me. I've no wish to discourse with you on ANYTHING. You've absolved yourself of the guilt you should have felt a long time ago, and to you what you did was nothing. But to someone who had stated they were tired of the crap, dealt with poorly and looking for sympathy, your lack of tact was and is a HEAVILY DISCUSSED issue on this forum. At the very least you are EXCELLENT at being a prime bad example.

[csrakate]

Ok, I'm going to ask officially that people STOP telling me what Fran says. And since this thread is completely hijacked, I'm going to put in my two-cents.



This little NUGGET of your wisdom said,"Oh Ian, sorry you're down, it's her right to do that, and don't call me a mysandryst JUST because I think ill of men and call them LESSER mortals ignorantly. The Bold and Italics were mine and prior posts in that had told you not to jump up my back on purpose, then you did so negligently, with as much thought as a cat claws up your furniture. You've been on my ignore ever since, and now I am asking my friends NOT to tell me what you say ANYMORE because I truly don't need to hear it. Your issues with this community and bisexuals is VERY clear to anyone watching, listening, reading. You are bigoted to them, have issues with men, think them less than yourself when the reality is SO much different than you will ever accept.

I hope and pray that IF you have boy children and they are growing you can see the world that hate has mandated exist both by the GL community on Bisexuals and the mysandrists and manginas on men. This world and the idea of privilege men supposedly enjoy allows you free rein to rake us up and down when your opinion is given equal weight to fact, and allowed to bullseye someone when they are lowest as if it was your JOB to make sure the poor jerk gets it in the teeth because life already knocked them on their ass. I truly hope you do, because only through the suffering of others and ourselves are we able to learn what hate is, because even shown in a mirror we do not see it for its ugliness.

The answers are out there, Fran, not that you will ever noptice them until you are ready to see. Until then, don't reply to me. I've no wish to discourse with you on ANYTHING. You've absolved yourself of the guilt you should have felt a long time ago, and to you what you did was nothing. But to someone who had stated they were tired of the crap, dealt with poorly and looking for sympathy, your lack of tact was and is a HEAVILY DISCUSSED issue on this forum. At the very least you are EXCELLENT at being a prime bad example.

I don't know Ian....it's no secret that you have posted to many a thread with remarks against women. I at least know that Fran's comments referring to men as "lesser mortals" are made in jest. Your comments, however, seem to be steeped in anger. Please....do tell....what horrible thing happened in your life that made you hate women so much?

[elian]

Hmm, I have already told part of the story that led me to believe the same thing about men. Thankfully I am healing - not all men act like drunk, abusive sholes who always just take what they want by any means necessary - only the ones I could see through the eyes of a child growing up.

Is it sexist to think that each "gender" has its own energy that compliments the other and the world around it - or is that just another learned behavior from society?

[darkeyes]

The thread has been hijacked enough and so will not exacerbate an already messy situation.. as ever I just let me own words speak for themselves and it is for the reader to judge me accordingly... I will say no more..

[dafydd]

. Now as for am I completely out, is that REALLY any of your fucking business? Is it?


No it's not any of my business and I'm not particularly interested. I don't like asking that question of people, but sometimes credentials of podium speakers need to be checked. It's just Ian, that you must know that biphobia is mainly due to the lack of knowledge/experience people have of of bisexuals. Whilst bisexuals remain hidden/'closeted' how else is this situation to improve? It doesn't mean that closested bisexuals deserve biphobia or that they have to 'come out' to fight prejudice. But you can't seriously expect people to rally around your anger and complaint if you're not leading as an example of the change you want to see.
Argue your point, but argue it any louder and with any more pomposity or literary self-regard, and its a fair expectation that you might be called into question on your track record regarding any possible solutions. If your track record is slightly lacking in this respect...maybe you should argue your point slightly more softly ?...or at least with some sense of self-awareness or critique e.g. "I know I'm a fine one to talk but...." or "having said that I freely admit to..." It might even strengthen your comments by factoring in human fallibilty/awareness of circumstance/and the bigger picture. Hey, I might even agree with you.

The Pink Rabbit thing needs clarification.. it sounds like you had a clear point, but the metaphor is just too overwhelming for me. You're talking about vibrators right?

BTW I don't need to mention to my male hook ups that Im bisexual. Women aren't on their minds or a part of our 'bonding'. It's just the two of us and no need for that particular pink elephant.

But....despite that... I do! Yep you can make damn sure I do! From profile headline to pillow talk, I am constantly finding subtle and yet creative ways to remind guys that I'm a real dude, an authentic man, a lover of titties and a hunger for flange
because...the truth is ....

You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.
You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.

d

DISCLAIMER: (it's possible to increase your chances and still have no chance)

[Realist]

I guess A person could say I was bi, turned gay, then turned back to bi.

After my last divorce, I decided I'd never find a lady, who could accept me as a bisexual man. So, I planned to look for a guy I could care for and need....and who cared for and needed me. I did find that person and thought I would be fixed for life. He was gay and I told him I was bisexual, but didn't feel that I'd want to be with a woman again.

However, on this site in 2008, I met a bisexual lady, who ended up being everything I ever wanted in a lover and mate. I told my lover, who I cared for deeply and relished our relationship, that I wanted to meet her. He said he was OK with it and that I should go ahead.

The lady and I fell in love and she was OK with my male lover being with us, or separate from, our relationship. It became too much for him, though; he was too jealous. We parted ways amicabally and I have been with the lady, since.

Maybe that's not exactly what you had in mind, Ian, but that's my experience. If I had never met the lady, I think I would have been happy in that gay relationship.

[IanBorthwick]

No it's not any of my business and I'm not particularly interested. I don't like asking that question of people, but sometimes credentials of podium speakers need to be checked. It's just Ian, that you must know that biphobia is mainly due to the lack of knowledge/experience people have of of bisexuals. Whilst bisexuals remain hidden/'closeted' how else is this situation to improve? It doesn't mean that closested bisexuals deserve biphobia or that they have to 'come out' to fight prejudice. But you can't seriously expect people to rally around your anger and complaint if you're not leading as an example of the change you want to see.

I see, so to translate,"Say it nicely or I'm going home!"

TO this I say, see ya! I don't have to be nice about anything when I see people couching vulgar things in a nice approach. The Velvet glove doesn't make the still fist feel like a tickle. End of that line.



Argue your point, but argue it any louder and with any more pomposity or literary self-regard, ....blah blah blah



Breaks down to more of the same, and with addendum that I you mistook righteous indignation for pomposity. It's common for people in the UK to get this back assward, and then double down on the "People Question" when in reality, it's just YOU questioning in order to try and reorient the game back in my court. Slick, but not unexpected. BTW, if in any part of my text I have put down that I am a Venusian or a Martian or a Deity and that I claim to NOT be a human being, you let me know how it got past me and I will apologize, but I do not have to couch things prettily or absolve myself of error as a human as this is no trained Chimp on the other side of a computer or I swear I'd be finding ways to live the big life and have endless supplies of bananas and gorgeous people to comb my pelt.




The Pink Rabbit thing needs clarification.. it sounds like you had a clear point, but the metaphor is just too overwhelming for me. You're talking about vibrators right?

BTW I don't need to mention to my male hook ups that Im bisexual. Women aren't on their minds or a part of our 'bonding'. It's just the two of us and no need for that particular pink elephant.

But....despite that... I do! Yep you can make damn sure I do! From profile headline to pillow talk, I am constantly finding subtle and yet creative ways to remind guys that I'm a real dude, an authentic man, a lover of titties and a hunger for flange
because...the truth is ....


That you have only your experiences and none else...that's the truth.

Now needing to have LOGIC explained to you, well now that depresses me.

Ok, so let's say YOU, Daffyd, say there is no such thing as a Pink Rabbit. The first instant someone FINDS one, REPORTS one, PHOTOGRAPHS one, or in some way produces data or experience to show you wrong, you're not 5% wrong, you're not 15% percent wrong, you're COMPLETELY wrong!

So when you say;


You increase your chances of a hook up by telling gay men that you are bisexual.

...the first time someone says they have seen it different you are not 5% wrong, you are not 25% wrong, you are 100% PERCENT Wrong!

The same goes for those who say there is no biphobia, or gays and lesbians are not biphobic or engage in bierasure...


...the first time someone says they have seen it different you are not 5% wrong, you are not 25% wrong, you are 100% PERCENT Wrong!

The proof has been brought, the experiences recounted, you are now living in fantasy land and wearing Rose Tinted Glasses. This is the logic test by which all stabile people put things. And true, credibility can be called into question, but that comes back to victim blaming and if it's unfair to engage in it against rape victims, the same goes for anyone who suffers it in any OTHER area of bigotry.

If this isn't clear enough I suggest put me on ignore.

[IanBorthwick]

I guess A person could say I was bi, turned gay, then turned back to bi.

After my last divorce, I decided I'd never find a lady, who could accept me as a bisexual man. So, I planned to look for a guy I could care for and need....and who cared for and needed me. I did find that person and thought I would be fixed for life. He was gay and I told him I was bisexual, but didn't feel that I'd want to be with a woman again.

However, on this site in 2008, I met a bisexual lady, who ended up being everything I ever wanted in a lover and mate. I told my lover, who I cared for deeply and relished our relationship, that I wanted to meet her. He said he was OK with it and that I should go ahead.

The lady and I fell in love and she was OK with my male lover being with us, or separate from, our relationship. It became too much for him, though; he was too jealous. We parted ways amicabally and I have been with the lady, since.

Maybe that's not exactly what you had in mind, Ian, but that's my experience. If I had never met the lady, I think I would have been happy in that gay relationship.


I'd wondered what had happened in your life. I am very glad you got the love you always wanted as it is an amazing event that marks the rest of the years with a wonderful glow no matter the ups and downs. Congrats!

Now as for what the OP wanted, that is exactly the kind of thing they need to hear, especially since you are bisexual and good with either gender in the love area.

Thanks for getting this apple cart back on the road.

[dafydd]

I see, so to translate,"Say it nicely or I'm going home!"


TO this I say, see ya! I don't have to be nice about anything when I see people couching vulgar things in a nice approach. The Velvet glove doesn't make the still fist feel like a tickle. End of that line.


Ian, you misunderstand. It's not about saying things nicely or not, it's about having the courage of convictions, thats all. if you stand by your words through action, then you present a very persuasive argument, and on this matter you could say it to me as offensively as possible and id respect you for it. (i do respect you anyways no matter how u think I feel after u read this post). i just wanted to challenge you by asking in effect 'why are you not doing the things that you argue should be done? e.g you argue for bivisibilty to challenge prejudices.. Ok... .so be visible as a bisexual.
We both know that's easier said than done, but your argument seems to so constantly concentrate on what people assume and judge about bisexuality that i just felt the logical conclusion would be for yourself to challenge that by being 'out' in everyday life.
But ... we are *both * agreed on how hard that can be, and so the issue of invisibility is a complex one. Its blame cannot always be laid at the feet of the ignorant, but should also share responsibility with the reluctance of those who have the knowledge and choose not to share it. Thats all.
All I was saying was that when one complains or criticises so assuredly (as we all do/should/want to) then please give us a practical answer or tested example of a way forward... solutions not problems etc.


It's common for people in the UK to get this back assward, and then double down on the "People Question" when in reality, it's just YOU questioning in order to try and reorient the game back in my court.


Its also common for people in the uk to eat cucumber sandwiches at high tea, to pledge allegiance to the Queen everyday, to utter the phrase "tally-ho chum" and to travel about using flying umbrellas or bicycles with the front wheel 20x times the size of the back one.....
...Ian please don't generalise or assume... isn't that what irks you so about biphobics?


That you have only your experiences and none else...that's the truth.

Now needing to have LOGIC explained to you, well now that depresses me.

Ok, so let's say YOU, Daffyd, say there is no such thing as a Pink Rabbit. The first instant someone FINDS one, REPORTS one, PHOTOGRAPHS one, or in some way produces data or experience to show you wrong, you're not 5% wrong, you're not 15% percent wrong, you're COMPLETELY wrong!


This is utterly an absurd piece of logic... I suppose then ian you are the type of person that believes in the loch ness monster (photo) or an alien face on Mars (photo) or that elvis is alive [photo] or that michael jackson still stalks the halls of neverland [photo] and that anyone inclined to disagree with all those ideas is "100% wrong" because
'look there's a photo!!'

You showing me a pic of a pink rabbit does nothing to make my disbelief of such a creature wrong. It merely puts you under the burden of proof to bring forth a real pink rabbit. Pictures, like words, are easy to produce... But i want to see it in action... which underlines my earlier point above about citing real life examples of how you propose to tackle the problem of bisexual invisibility.
I don't always believe what I see or read in the paper (an article or pic of a pink rabbit is no more proof of one than that pic of the guy in an ape costume is proof of Big Foot).

I think this particular brand of reasoning belongs firmly back in the pages of the national enquirer and whoever sold you on its logic (including the nonsensical ability to make percentage calculations of 'right/wrong') is quite simply 100% mad...

And that's the British use of 'mad' ... i.e. "KE-RAZY"!




If this isn't clear enough I suggest put me on ignore.

Why would I put you on ignore? We're having a debate Ian. it's not that bad. It's just a debate. If i put you on ignore how would i then question your arguments? Oh I see... maybe that's why you suggested it.

Well this took me about 30 mins to tappy tap out on my iPod keyboard. Don't put me on ignore... Otherwise it kind of makes a joke out of being able to discuss any issue with more than one side, and also of this forum and its multi-faceted threads and posts.

And if people are offended that we've gone of topic.... Then how can you have a ' topic' which prevents posters from outlining their thought processes and defending their arguments? That's what makes this site great. Anybody who demands such rigid adherence to topics should confine their reading to posts about tits and ass and cocks and spunk. They never deviate from the original post mainly because all bisexuals can find common ground with a bit of cheeky porn hey?

I mean sex sex sex sex is all our greedy over-sexed bisexual minds think about, right?

DafyDD ;)