For those wondeing what biphobia is and what it looks like

[BiDaveDtown]

WHAT DOES BIPHOBIA LOOK LIKE? * Assuming that everyone you meet is either heterosexual or homosexual. * Supporting and understanding a bisexual identity for young people because you identified “that way” before you came to your “real” lesbian/gay/heterosexual identity. * Expecting a bisexual to identify as heterosexual when coupled with the so called different gender/sex. * Believing bisexual men spread AIDS/HIV to heterosexuals. * Thinking bisexual people haven’t made up their minds or are confused about their sexuality. * Thinking that a bisexual person is lying about their sexuality and is actually straight or gay. * Assuming that bisexual men spread HIV and other STDs to gay men and straight women. * Assuming a bisexual person would want to fulfill your sexual fantasies or curiosities. * Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual. * Feeling that bisexual people are too outspoken and pushy about their visibility and rights. * Automatically assuming romantic couplings of two women are lesbian, or two men are gay, or a man and a woman are heterosexual. * Expecting bisexual people to get services, information, and education from heterosexual service agencies for their “heterosexual side” (sic) and then go to gay and/or lesbian service agencies for their “homosexual side” (sic). * Feeling bisexuals just want to have their cake and eat it too. * Believing that bisexual women spread AIDS/HIV to lesbians. * Using the terms “phase” or “stage” or “confused” or “fence-sitter” or “bisexual” or “AC/DC” or “switch-hitter” as slurs or in an accusatory way. * Thinking bisexuals only have committed relationships with so called different sex/gender partners. * Looking at a bisexual person and automatically thinking of their sexuality rather than seeing them as a whole, complete person. * Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an different gender/sex coupling to reap the social benefits of a so-called “heterosexual” pairing [sic]. * Not confronting a biphobic remark or joke for fear of being identified as bisexual. * Assuming bisexual means “available.” * Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs. * Assuming that bisexuals are closeted and don't want to fight for LGBT or gay rights. * Claiming that homophobia is horrible, while being biphobic and practicing bisexual erasure is excusable and OK. * Claiming that biphobia and bisexual erasure don't exist or are over-exaggerated by bisexuals and LGBTH allies to bisexuals. * Claming that bisexual's equality and rights aren't that important compared to the equality and rights of gays and lesbians. * Being gay or lesbian and asking your bisexual friend about their lover or whom they are dating only when that person is the “same” sex/gender. * Being gay or lesbian and being dissappointed when you learn that someone is bisexual and not gay or lesbian. * Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality. * Feeling that you can’t trust a bisexual because they aren’t really gay or lesbian, or aren’t really heterosexual, and that someone coming out as bisexual means someone’s closeted or can’t be trusted and isn’t telling the truth about their sexuality. * Expecting a bisexual to identify as gay or lesbian when coupled with the “same” sex/gender. * Saying that you’d never date, sleep with, or enter into a relationship with a bisexual person. * Claiming that the rights of bisexuals don’t matter and that political and equality for gays and lesbians is more important and pressing. * Expecting bisexual activists and organizers to minimize bisexual issues (i.e. HIV/AIDS, violence, basic civil rights, fighting the Right, military, same-sex marriage, child custody, adoption, etc.) and to prioritize the visibility of so called “lesbian and/or gay” issues. * Avoid mentioning to friends that you are involved with a bisexual or working with a bisexual group because you are afraid they will think you are a bisexual. * Claiming that most bisexuals are content to fight for LGBT rights when they are single and then they disappear into a "heterosexual" relationship or marriage and stop fighting for LGBT rights and equality.

[nutme]

I'm too busy living my life, dealing with what is now to be described only as insanity in this country, to even pay a mind to what biphobia looks like, smells like or what any one person thinks of it. I'll go one further; my upstairs neighbor is a lesbian and she has one nasty ass girl friend. The fact that she is a lesbian doesn't bother me at all, what bothers me is that she is a total friggen asshole......just goes to show ya, the beautiful people aren't so beautiful after all, they're just like the rest of us.

[darkeyes]

What is biphobia? Biphobia is an extreme and irrational fear of bisexuals and bisexuality.. any or all of these points u raise can be symptomatic of biphobia, but equally many can be simply the misunderstanding of those who don't know or merely a disagreement between different viewpoints.. misunderstandings or disagreements on issues do not in themselves denote biphobia.. they do not of themselves necessarily arise from an irrational or extreme fear... even taken as a bloc does not necessarily infer biphobia.. they may infer the prejudice of the bigot but that's quite another related issue... and no, I am not denying the existence of biphobia before u decide to have another rant...

[tenni]

Thanks BiDave. It is an interesting list and an interesting reaction by some.

Did you come up with these ideas on your own or where did you get this list?

[slipnslide]

I gotta agree with nutme. Who cares?

It's hardly like biphobia affects the planet in any meaningful way.

But I guess nowadays everyone is looking to play the victim for some cause.

[tenni]

Slippy
Out of curiousity, does your attitude hold the same for say politics? injustice done to others than yourself?

Do you care about say the Harper government issues about the jet purchases?

[darkeyes]

I gotta agree with nutme. Who cares?

It's hardly like biphobia affects the planet in any meaningful way.

But I guess nowadays everyone is looking to play the victim for some cause.
If it affects just one person then it is something to care about.. and it affects far more than just one person..it affects millions, no hundreds of millions around the world.. phobias of all kind create pressures and stresses on human beings and create paranoia, suspicion, persecution, crime, oppression and wars.. these phobias do create victims... homophobia, biphobia, xenophobia all create victims and do affect this world in a meaningful way because they adversely affect the victims of those phobias.. and by not dealing with the root causes of those phobias, those who are phobic are every bit as much a victim of phobia as any other.. for their lives are blighted by fear and irrationality and their humanity poisoned as a result.. not affect our planet in a meaningful way? A foolish, naive, ignorant and very dangerous thing to say..

[Gearbox]

Here's Wikipedia's description of HOMOPHOBIA:

Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality or people who are identified as or perceived as being homosexual. Definitions[1][2][3] refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination[1][2] and violence on the basis of a non-heterosexual orientation. In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."[4]

Among some of the more discussed forms of homophobia are institutionalized homophobia (e.g. religious homophobia and state-sponsored homophobia[5]), lesbophobia[6] – the intersection of homophobia and sexism directed against lesbians, and internalized homophobia – a form of homophobia among people who experience same-sex attraction regardless of whether or not they identify as LGBT.

Two words originate from homophobia: homophobic (adj.) and homophobe (n.), the latter word describing a person who displays homophobia or is thought to do so.
And here's Wikipedia's description of BIPHOBIA:

Biphobia is a term used to describe aversion felt toward bisexuality and bisexuals as a social group or as individuals. People of any sexual orientation can experience such feelings of aversion. A source of discrimination against bisexuals, biphobia is based on negative bisexual stereotypes and bisexual erasure.
:rolleyes:
5511
Homophobia is bayd! Mmmkay? Homphobes are Nazi's and like racists and dehumanise people Mmmkay? Gays and lesbians are criticised by evil people who are bayd mmkay? There's no reason to say bayd things about them, and if you do your a bayd person! MmmKay? Homosexuals are discriminated against! We should just stop that! Mmmkay?
Biphobia is bayd! Mmmkay? Biphobes are ...umm.. not bayd!Mmkay? Don't feel bayd if your a biphobe! Mmmkay? There are reasons to be biphobic, cos some bisexuals do bayd things! Mmmkay? So I heard, anyways. I think so. Mmmmm?
So biphobia is bayd, but biphobes are not bayd. Mmkay?

[csrakate]

LOL Gearbox....I ALWAYS listen to Mr. Mackey!

[tenni]

This is not to write oh poor us but another point to pay attention to is that bisexuals may also have to deal with homophobia as well as biphobia. It is a double barrelled phobic discrimination...even from within our own ranks. It seems that way sometimes. May a bisexual be biphobic? Yes.

Not all concepts are presented cleanly and biphobic as these statements. I have found that they may vary from the ones posted. Here are some of the statements that I have read on this site with some variations.

* Claiming that biphobia and bisexual are over-exaggerated (or don't exist) by bisexuals and LGBTH allies to bisexuals. (not important)

* Assuming that bisexual men spread HIV and other STDs to gay men and straight women.(except it was biwomen)

* Claiming that bisexual's equality and rights aren't that important compared to the equality and rights of gays and lesbians. (written in a slightly different way...word "human rights" were used)
* Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs.(similar diminishing of of significance of biphobia as above)

*Claiming that homophobia is horrible, while being biphobic and practicing bisexual erasure is excusable and OK. (written in a slightly different way and the idea is spread over multi posts..a layering of small biphobic or anti bisexual statements. Reasons given is that it is an alternative view to help bisexuals see themselves etc.)

[darkeyes]

This is not to write oh poor us but another point to pay attention to is that bisexuals may also have to deal with homophobia as well as biphobia. It is a double barrelled phobic discrimination...even from within our own ranks. It seems that way sometimes. May a bisexual be biphobic? Yes.

Not all concepts are presented cleanly and biphobic as these statements. I have found that they may vary from the ones posted. Here are some of the statements that I have read on this site with some variations.

* Claiming that biphobia and bisexual are over-exaggerated (or don't exist) by bisexuals and LGBTH allies to bisexuals. (not important)

* Assuming that bisexual men spread HIV and other STDs to gay men and straight women.(except it was biwomen)

* Claiming that bisexual's equality and rights aren't that important compared to the equality and rights of gays and lesbians. (written in a slightly different way...word "human rights" were used)
* Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs.(similar diminishing of of significance of biphobia as above)

*Claiming that homophobia is horrible, while being biphobic and practicing bisexual erasure is excusable and OK. (written in a slightly different way and the idea is spread over multi posts..a layering of small biphobic or anti bisexual statements. Reasons given is that it is an alternative view to help bisexuals see themselves etc.)

wooo tenni..can't help but feel bullet points 3 an 4 are fired at me.. if so both r a bit of a twisting and a travesty of what I've said and believe...

[PeterNZ]

I gotta agree with nutme. Who cares? It's hardly like biphobia affects the planet in any meaningful way. But I guess nowadays everyone is looking to play the victim for some cause. I guess we should ignore racism, and all forms of bigotry and discrimination then and not rally against them or call people out when they practise racism, bigotry, or discrimination even if it's biphobia and they are a gay man, lesbian woman, or heterosexual. People who go on and on about these things are purely professional victims looking to further their own political cause. :rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

Biphobia need not be a phobia as defined in clinical psychology (i.e., an anxiety disorder). You can bury your head in the sand, darkeyes (whilst claiming to be lesbian), and slipnslide (who claims he's bisexual) but biphobia and bisexual erasure are real, they do occur. And we WILL speak out against them.
Good..and so u should... and loudly... shout it from rooftops... but do it right..and don't deny what is, or misrepresent what isn't...

[æonpax]

This is not to write oh poor us but another point to pay attention to is that bisexuals may also have to deal with homophobia as well as biphobia. It is a double barrelled phobic discrimination...even from within our own ranks. It seems that way sometimes. May a bisexual be biphobic? Yes.

Not all concepts are presented cleanly and biphobic as these statements. I have found that they may vary from the ones posted. Here are some of the statements that I have read on this site with some variations.

* Claiming that biphobia and bisexual are over-exaggerated (or don't exist) by bisexuals and LGBTH allies to bisexuals. (not important)

* Assuming that bisexual men spread HIV and other STDs to gay men and straight women.(except it was biwomen)

* Claiming that bisexual's equality and rights aren't that important compared to the equality and rights of gays and lesbians. (written in a slightly different way...word "human rights" were used)
* Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs.(similar diminishing of of significance of biphobia as above)

*Claiming that homophobia is horrible, while being biphobic and practicing bisexual erasure is excusable and OK. (written in a slightly different way and the idea is spread over multi posts..a layering of small biphobic or anti bisexual statements. Reasons given is that it is an alternative view to help bisexuals see themselves etc.)



While well meaning, I don’t think it would be in the best interest of bisexual community to allow certain people to become our spokespersons especially on an important issue as discrimination against bisexuals or biphobia. We need a person with a solid track record of objectivity, not someone who hides behind an issue for ulterior purposes.

In regards to the above post.

1) The authors entire case regarding biphobia rests on what he/they perceive they see posted in an internet forum, this one, which they can’t even articulate on, other than offering some vague references. What is disturbing is the author raises issues that have never been said here, other than in his own mind. This author does more harm than good by trivializing this issue to reflect his dissatisfaction with individuals here in a forum and is acting in his own self-interest.

2) On the UK site, “The Bisexual Index”, they state, in reference to biphobia;


“What many people don't expect, and the above definition does set out, is that bisexual people suffer from homophobia too. The idea that identifying as bisexual is a way to avoid homophobia, or easier/safer than coming out as gay is a myth. "


The people who hate us don't distinguish between us. In fact it's entirely possible to be discriminated against and bullied for being gay without actually being LGBT at all - it's about the perception” - http://www.bisexualindex.org.uk/index.php/Biphobia

The author of this thread. takes great pains to separate bi and homophobia when in fact, they overlap. That is also emphasized in Robyn Ochs’ “Biphobia: It Goes More Than Two Ways” who states;


In summary, invisibility, isolation, and oppression due to homophobia are experiences shared by bisexual and homosexual people in the United States. Any person may be a target of oppression when visible as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, and each suffers internally when forced to remain silent or repress feelings for people of the same sex. Whether the cause of this oppression is called "homophobia" or "biphobia," it hurts everyone. - http://www.robynochs.com/writing/essays/biphobia.html



3) The author of this post claims; “Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs”. Unfortunately, such an erroneous statement runs contrary to a report put out by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force which states;


“Bisexual people share an inclusive vision of human rights and social justice more than a narrowly defined "gay identity politics" could hope to achieve. The struggle to establish civil rights protections for bisexual people cannot be separated from the struggle to win freedom and equality for LGBT people.” - http://thetaskforce.org/issues/bisexuality


While us bisexuals have issues that set us aside and are unique to our orientation, our quest for equal rights runs parallel to the LGBT and it is only within being unified that our voices are heard.
`
`
Summary – As I had once brought up in another thread, the murders of Matthew Shepard did not stop to ask him if he was bisexual before they beat him to death. It didn’t matter. With many of these hateful people, if a man has sex with another man, he’s gay.

When self-righteous Christians judge all homosexuals in perdition, they make no difference between gay, lesbian, bisexuals and transgendered.

Biphobia and bisexual erasure are issues which we as a community need to address but larger, more pressing issues also face us that can cause much greater harm or deny us our rights under law.

It’s an insult to the bisexual community for some members to take an issue like this and distort it to suit their own agenda. There are far more intellectually balanced people in this forum to handle this topic in an objective manner, where civil and learned discussion can take place.

[tenni]

It is is difficult for meto respond to you Aeon mainly because of my tablet as I am travelling presently. Your writing approach is far from consensual and a personal attack mode. How are we to have acivil discourse with suchan approach? You find my thoughts inarticulate and write from a position of assuming your superiority. I am indeed not an expert onbiphobia or bierasure. This forum is in its early days of discussing such topics. It may beless than a year. I do not live in the same society as you do. Things may differ here as to how these phobias exist.
As far as statements made on this forum that may or may not be biphobic that is up for discussion. You may make biphobic statments or I may make them. The form of the thoughts maybe biphobic and it maybe possible at the core of the person is not a black nor white belief structure that might be seen by "expert" as a biphobic person.

I will get back to you later. Cheers

[darkeyes]

I don't think tenni was putting himself forward as a spokesperson, Joan.. merely making an argument on something which he has strong opinions on... much as both u and I do.. tenni and I agree probably less than half the time on most issues and certainly on the issue of biphobia and bierasure... my idea of what biphobia is certainly is closer to yours than his, and some other posters... but at least he can be persuaded sometimes and does listen.. unlike1of6 and his/her/its/their rants..

And tenni.. of course we would like consensus, but by arguing our corner we seek to reach consensus on our terms not another's.. as you believe, she believes differently, and as I do very often.. it is debate that brings us to consensus but very often we will never even come close, such is how dearly and deeply each of us holds our own beliefs.. persuasion if we can but we cannot always persuade, and if we began with consensus what would we have to debate? If there is a personal attack, it is quite a mild one, but I don't think it is meant as a personal attack as such but criticism of certain aspects of how you argue and what you believe.. Joan certainly begins a little abrasively, but she isn't alone in that on this site is she? And in ending, she speaks little more than the truth if in a somewhat dismissive manner of those who may not be either as intellectually, verbally or literally gifted, The rest? Seems likes fair comment to me...

[void()]

1) The authors entire case regarding biphobia rests on what he/they perceive they see posted in an internet forum, this one, which they can’t even articulate on, other than offering some vague references. What is disturbing is the author raises issues that have never been said here, other than in his own mind. This author does more harm than good by trivializing this issue to reflect his dissatisfaction with individuals here in a forum and is acting in his own self-interest.

2) On the UK site, “The Bisexual Index”, they state, in reference to biphobia;


“What many people don't expect, and the above definition does set out, is that bisexual people suffer from homophobia too. The idea that identifying as bisexual is a way to avoid homophobia, or easier/safer than coming out as gay is a myth. "


The people who hate us don't distinguish between us. In fact it's entirely possible to be discriminated against and bullied for being gay without actually being LGBT at all - it's about the perception” - http://www.bisexualindex.org.uk/index.php/Biphobia

The author of this thread. takes great pains to separate bi and homophobia when in fact, they overlap. That is also emphasized in Robyn Ochs’ “Biphobia: It Goes More Than Two Ways” who states;


In summary, invisibility, isolation, and oppression due to homophobia are experiences shared by bisexual and homosexual people in the United States. Any person may be a target of oppression when visible as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, and each suffers internally when forced to remain silent or repress feelings for people of the same sex. Whether the cause of this oppression is called "homophobia" or "biphobia," it hurts everyone. - http://www.robynochs.com/writing/essays/biphobia.html



3) The author of this post claims; “Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs”. Unfortunately, such an erroneous statement runs contrary to a report put out by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force which states;


“Bisexual people share an inclusive vision of human rights and social justice more than a narrowly defined "gay identity politics" could hope to achieve. The struggle to establish civil rights protections for bisexual people cannot be separated from the struggle to win freedom and equality for LGBT people.” - http://thetaskforce.org/issues/bisexuality


While us bisexuals have issues that set us aside and are unique to our orientation, our quest for equal rights runs parallel to the LGBT and it is only within being unified that our voices are heard.
`
`
Summary – As I had once brought up in another thread, the murders of Matthew Shepard did not stop to ask him if he was bisexual before they beat him to death. It didn’t matter. With many of these hateful people, if a man has sex with another man, he’s gay.

When self-righteous Christians judge all homosexuals in perdition, they make no difference between gay, lesbian, bisexuals and transgendered.

Biphobia and bisexual erasure are issues which we as a community need to address but larger, more pressing issues also face us that can cause much greater harm or deny us our rights under law.

It’s an insult to the bisexual community for some members to take an issue like this and distort it to suit their own agenda. There are far more intellectually balanced people in this forum to handle this topic in an objective manner, where civil and learned discussion can take place.

1. If you are addressing the original poster's offering, I believe they articulated quite well that hate is hate. They further expressed that hate seems to have gained a foothold on this site.

2. In regards to hate, no purpose is served to compare this site to another. You are expressing the point of hate being blind and without preference to its object. Another site's philosophy is not this site's savior.

Until Drew may have opportunity to enact a form of moderation, we as individuals are the savior. There are four rules listed above where one posts, replies. We should all be aware of these and seek out a means of communication embodied in compassion, clothed in dignity, weathering respect.

This is what I think the original poster was making an effort to express. I may be incorrect. If so my humble apologies for misinterpreting what found itself in that post.

3. I think the original poster was using the statement of some, whom say bisexuals will be granted rights alongside homosexuals, as an example of hate and clearly knows that statement is false. They were not making the statement themselves, rather pointing to it as a matter of reference. Again, If I've misread, apologies.


I did not see that the original poster was distorting anything. I believe they posted an expression which points out hate has gained purchase on this site. It is a site organized and maintained for people to express diverse views, become a community from what the mainstream deem dregs of society. More importantly, this site was founded I believe in order to grant us, homosexual, lesbian, heterosexual, transgender, all a safe harbor from the gale of hate. Nonetheless, hate seems to have set upon us here.

Frankly, I do not see asking for a bit of self editing, a pinch of self censor as a 'bad' thing. We should respect ourselves in order to respect others. When one loses a salvo of insults at another, they may as well soil their own Sunday best outfit. What one says of another reflects back upon the one saying it. If we continually engage in an attitude of having to be superior to one another here, where all are accepted, then how may we ever hope to abolish hate in any form?

Clear lesson here for us all. Hate nor Love do not care about any classification. Choose wisely.

P.S. Please note I am not against any other web site. My expression regarding comparison is not meant to infer that in any way. My point simply being that comparing often leads back to an attitude of superior versus inferior, and that does not solve, or address the issue of helping to stop hate. Thanks.

[æonpax]

It is is difficult for meto respond to you Aeon mainly because of my tablet as I am travelling presently. Your writing approach is far from consensual and a personal attack mode. How are we to have acivil discourse with suchan approach? You find my thoughts inarticulate and write from a position of assuming your superiority. I am indeed not an expert onbiphobia or bierasure. This forum is in its early days of discussing such topics. It may beless than a year. I do not live in the same society as you do. Things may differ here as to how these phobias exist.
As far as statements made on this forum that may or may not be biphobic that is up for discussion. You may make biphobic statments or I may make them. The form of the thoughts maybe biphobic and it maybe possible at the core of the person is not a black nor white belief structure that might be seen by "expert" as a biphobic person.

I will get back to you later. Cheers
`

If I was needlessly rude and sarcastic, I apologize. Nonetheless, one of the biggest problems facing bisexuals is that for biphobia to exist, there has to be an "out" bisexual who has been discriminated against. Our public members are just not there,"en masse", leastways in the public forum.

At Milwaukee's recent Pridefest, we just were not adequately represented with bisexuals. Bisexuals were there, by default, but not in the numbers I was hoping for. Almost ever booth, display or kiosk was either gay/lesbian themed or dealt with homosexual community as an aggregate containing bisexuals.

Unless the Bisexual community starts getting proactive, for example, by insisting the media identify us by our unique orientation, all this baying at the moon will accomplish nothing.

[darkeyes]

Hate, Voidie, has been an ever increasing problem on this site for 3 or 4 years now.. more than once I have held my hands up in horror, and several times seriously wanted to walk away... I have been accused of it, and others too, and there is an increasing tendency to accuse, twist, distort, misrepresent and deliberately lie for reasons of personal prejudice and often simply for the hell of it... it is a canker on site and I simply have no idea how we stop it..

I dislike banning people even if they are part of that canker, because it does not work as we can see on many threads and because in some ways even hate serves a purpose but exposing those who hate and the disease they bring on site... we live in a free society or we do not.. we have freedom of speech or we do not.. how within the context of that we prevent hate from being expounded is a question all of us should consider and concern ourselves with.. people have walked away from the site because of it, some have expressed their disgust, but far too few are prepared to raise their voices in opposition to it, and in defence of their site. Yet of more did so the danger of encouraging those who hate to be even more destructive than they are is very real... some of those who are most vociferous about others for hating are themselves the greatest practicioners of the disease they profess to loathe.. we can ignore them and allow them to get bored and move on, but that is unlikely to happen because such is the degree they have infiltrated and are poisoning the ethos of both the site and what the lgbt and most decent people are about.. the danger is by ignoring them, the site becomes one great cesspool of hate and poison as they slowly become ever more vocal and numerous.. when that day..

...if that day happens.. then I think Drew will pull the plug and this site will become a part of web history, of bisexual history, lgbt history, and who could blame him for that? And those who do not hate, because they did not care enough to defend what they have will be as responsible as the contemptible who spread their loathsome crap, some of whom I have no doubt had just such a purpose in mind from the very beginning and from the moment they first heard of bisexual.com...

[æonpax]

x
1. If you are addressing the original poster's offering, I believe they articulated quite well that hate is hate. They further expressed that hate seems to have gained a foothold on this site.


1 - I do not agree but that is your opinion and will respect it.


2. In regards to hate, no purpose is served to compare this site to another. You are expressing the point of hate being blind and without preference to its object. Another site's philosophy is not this site's savior


2 - The analogy stands as proper, logical and related; your opinion, notwithstanding.

Until Drew may have opportunity to enact a form of moderation, we as individuals are the savior. There are four rules listed above where one posts, replies. We should all be aware of these and seek out a means of communication embodied in compassion, clothed in dignity, weathering respect.

I was waiting for someone to bring up the "Rules" here, or lack thereof. First off, since I've never seen you bring this up to other offenders (I am just one) your purpose of addressing just me is suspect. Common sense dictates we should treat all with courtesy and respect. However it applies to everyone.


This is what I think the original poster was making an effort to express. I may be incorrect. If so my humble apologies for misinterpreting what found itself in that post.




I stand corrected.



3. I think the original poster was using the statement of some, whom say bisexuals will be granted rights alongside homosexuals, as an example of hate and clearly knows that statement is false. They were not making the statement themselves, rather pointing to it as a matter of reference. Again, If I've misread, apologies.


3 - Consider the fact that Florida has starting purging voters based on the unproven assumption of voter fraud. Now even if a million people say it, it must be proven, which has not been done.


So too with the problem of biphobia. It exists but to what extent? Where are it's victims? Who are the victims? I acknowledge biphobia exists but no one has produced one iota of evidence as to its degree or permeation.



I did not see that the original poster was distorting anything. I believe they posted an expression which points out hate has gained purchase on this site. It is a site organized and maintained for people to express diverse views, become a community from what the mainstream deem dregs of society. More importantly, this site was founded I believe in order to grant us, homosexual, lesbian, heterosexual, transgender, all a safe harbor from the gale of hate. Nonetheless, hate seems to have set upon us here.


What hate? Can you show me examples? I don't see hate here. I see occasional bias, intolerance and stupidity but not this hate you talk about. Lets not wallow in hyperbole here.



Frankly, I do not see asking for a bit of self editing, a pinch of self censor as a 'bad' thing. We should respect ourselves in order to respect others. When one loses a salvo of insults at another, they may as well soil their own Sunday best outfit. What one says of another reflects back upon the one saying it. If we continually engage in an attitude of having to be superior to one another here, where all are accepted, then how may we ever hope to abolish hate in any form?


Clear lesson here for us all. Hate nor Love do not care about any classification. Choose wisely.


Wise words, let's see to it that everyone follows them



P.S. Please note I am not against any other web site. My expression regarding comparison is not meant to infer that in any way. My point simply being that comparing often leads back to an attitude of superior versus inferior, and that does not solve, or address the issue of helping to stop hate. Thanks.

[Gearbox]

`

If I was needlessly rude and sarcastic, I apologize. Nonetheless, one of the biggest problems facing bisexuals is that for biphobia to exist, there has to be an "out" bisexual who has been discriminated against. Our public members are just not there,"en masse", leastways in the public forum.

At Milwaukee's recent Pridefest, we just were not adequately represented with bisexuals. Bisexuals were there, by default, but not in the numbers I was hoping for. Almost ever booth, display or kiosk was either gay/lesbian themed or dealt with homosexual community as an aggregate containing bisexuals.

Unless the Bisexual community starts getting proactive, for example, by insisting the media identify us by our unique orientation, all this baying at the moon will accomplish nothing.
OMG! Closet bisexualaphobia erasure!:yikes2:

LOL! "I have a kiosk, therefore I exist!", or rather the opposite with bi's.:tongue:
Yes I know what you mean really, but I do wonder how interested most bisexuals are when it comes to the actual politics of sexuality. For most (as far as I can tell) there's just a naive notion that we'd be accepted as real, because...well we are real. But that doesn't quite cut it in the public arena. We're just not as militant minded as some gays&lesbians who turn sexuality into a cause. We mainly just try to explain ourselves and expect that to be enough.

I watched a Youtube vid about pansexuality recently, and one comment drew my attention:

I don't have a problem with pansexuals/genderqueers/polyse *xuals/etc identifying themselves as such, but trying to pass as a legitimate social class and their growing acceptance among liberal/progressive types have devastating effects on feminism and homosexual activism. These people are fetishists trying to reappropriate homosexual and woman identities for themselves thus eradicating those groups as a social class. It's misogynistic and homophobic.


It's homophobic to be pan-bisexual etc.:eek2: For this YT subscriber (Yes I know!:rolleyes:) and probably more, sexuality has left humanism behind and has become a political cause.
But is that how bisexuality is viewed by some/most? The only cause I feel relevant to my sexuality is not being prodded into a box with descriptions on, and exploring what I am. And I (most probably) naively assume that others of all sexualities would want that for themselves too. But IMO homosexual activists have distorted the 'liberation of sexuality' and turned it into a minority political circus. From the bi seats, it's nowhere near as binary as claimed for the whole. We do actually have a right to chose as we please, so abstinence maybe a vote of no confidence?:tongue:

[æonpax]

OMG! Closet bisexualaphobia erasure!:yikes2:
LOL! "I have a kiosk, therefore I exist!", or rather the opposite with bi's.:tongue:
Yes I know what you mean really, but I do wonder how interested most bisexuals are when it comes to the actual politics of sexuality. For most (as far as I can tell) there's just a naive notion that we'd be accepted as real, because...well we are real. But that doesn't quite cut it in the public arena. We're just not as militant minded as some gays&lesbians who turn sexuality into a cause. We mainly just try to explain ourselves and expect that to be enough.
I watched a Youtube vid about pansexuality recently, and one comment drew my attention:
It's homophobic to be pan-bisexual etc.:eek2: For this YT subscriber (Yes I know!:rolleyes:) and probably more, sexuality has left humanism behind and has become a political cause.
But is that how bisexuality is viewed by some/most? The only cause I feel relevant to my sexuality is not being prodded into a box with descriptions on, and exploring what I am. And I (most probably) naively assume that others of all sexualities would want that for themselves too. But IMO homosexual activists have distorted the 'liberation of sexuality' and turned it into a minority political circus. From the bi seats, it's nowhere near as binary as claimed for the whole. We do actually have a right to chose as we please, so abstinence maybe a vote of no confidence?:tongue:
`
I was merely pointing out the physical presence of bisexuals at the fest, which by the way has bearing on bisexual awareness or don't you know?

If the problem is bisexual invisibility, pray tell, how do we make ourselves felt except in physical numbers?

[**Peg**]

... the site becomes one great cesspool of hate and poison as they slowly become ever more vocal and numerous.. when that day.....if that day happens.. ...


Already has....over 2 years ago. I think arana was the first to realize that and get the hell outa dodge... always thought she was one smart cookie. It's only gotten worse since she left.

Any doubts Fran? just think about all our other friends who have left. Well, that and the fact that this place has become mainly political and argumentative. There is no fun here any more because most of the witty, engaging, joyous people are gone now. Myself included. All the yattering will accomplish is to turn this site into just another chat wasteland. I've seen it happen to amore, hotsexchat, sexchat.com, and a host of other previously fun places.

IMO there is no need to shout and bitch and posture and piss on fenceposts and attempt to garner territory... all ANYone needs to do to make things right in the world is to turn off the computer, get off ones' ass and get out there.

:2cents:

[darkeyes]

Already has....over 2 years ago. I think arana was the first to realize that and get the hell outa dodge... always thought she was one smart cookie. It's only gotten worse since she left.

Any doubts Fran? just think about all our other friends who have left. Well, that and the fact that this place has become mainly political and argumentative. There is no fun here any more because most of the witty, engaging, joyous people are gone now. Myself included. All the yattering will accomplish is to turn this site into just another chat wasteland. I've seen it happen to amore, hotsexchat, sexchat.com, and a host of other previously fun places.

IMO there is no need to shout and bitch and posture and piss on fenceposts and attempt to garner territory... all ANYone needs to do to make things right in the world is to turn off the computer, get off ones' ass and get out there.

:2cents:
Much truth in that Granmumsie... but run away and give them free reign and let the site disappear.. who wins:eek2:?

[pepperjack]

Hate, Voidie, has been an ever increasing problem on this site for 3 or 4 years now.. more than once I have held my hands up in horror, and several times seriously wanted to walk away... I have been accused of it, and others too, and there is an increasing tendency to accuse, twist, distort, misrepresent and deliberately lie for reasons of personal prejudice and often simply for the hell of it... it is a canker on site and I simply have no idea how we stop it..

I dislike banning people even if they are part of that canker, because it does not work as we can see on many threads and because in some ways even hate serves a purpose but exposing those who hate and the disease they bring on site... we live in a free society or we do not.. we have freedom of speech or we do not.. how within the context of that we prevent hate from being expounded is a question all of us should consider and concern ourselves with.. people have walked away from the site because of it, some have expressed their disgust, but far too few are prepared to raise their voices in opposition to it, and in defence of their site. Yet of more did so the danger of encouraging those who hate to be even more destructive than they are is very real... some of those who are most vociferous about others for hating are themselves the greatest practicioners of the disease they profess to loathe.. we can ignore them and allow them to get bored and move on, but that is unlikely to happen because such is the degree they have infiltrated and are poisoning the ethos of both the site and what the lgbt and most decent people are about.. the danger is by ignoring them, the site becomes one great cesspool of hate and poison as they slowly become ever more vocal and numerous.. when that day..

...if that day happens.. then I think Drew will pull the plug and this site will become a part of web history, of bisexual history, lgbt history, and who could blame him for that? And those who do not hate, because they did not care enough to defend what they have will be as responsible as the contemptible who spread their loathsome crap, some of whom I have no doubt had just such a purpose in mind from the very beginning and from the moment they first heard of bisexual.com...


This post reminded me of an incident at work one day when a supervisor in my dept. was accusing an outsider from another dept. of " creating a hostile work environment." This seemed to be this particular supervisor's favorite accusation after he gained his position of authority there and if anyone was guilty of that, he was. Anyway, I came to the outsider's defense by chiming in " He walked into a hostile environment." People can become infected by the ambiance of an environment and find themselves contributing to it, either inadvertently or deliberately

[_Joe_]

I read the other day "It's a shame we don't treat homophobia like we do other phobias - therapy and medication to cure the phobia. Those homophobic people always think its the other person that needs help."

[darkeyes]

It's a difficult thing, Pepper, this job of living.. we all like it simply to tootle along with no stress.. life isn't so easy and straightforward.. when we see what we perceive is injustice, or anything else which we believe is wrong, or hear the words of those who offend against what we see as common decency.. we can sit and stay quiet, or we can try and make them see the error of their ways.. we defend what we believe or we do not... and sometimes by doing so we shall create hostility against us and often feel hostility in return... it is almost inevitable.. it is something I recognise and accept and however unintententionally I accept that there will be times when my words will do just that.. just as occasionally, I will feel it necessary to be a little more barbed and will do so not accidentally... so I accept much of the implied criticism you make, but we debate or we do not.. we speak out or we stay silent and allow the opposing view to prevail unchallenged.. why else does this forum exist??? But I never speak out of hate for another.. I may hate what that other says or believes, but not the person him or herself... hostility to an idea is one thing.,, hostility to the person because that person holds a particular set of ideals, or is something I am not is quite another matter... it is that kind of hostility and intolerance that in common with society as a whole, in the United States and the UK and elsewhere, this site has a real and deepening problem...

[tenni]

Thank you Aeon. I am an imperfect m and I too may have been less than kind to you. I am told by someone that Irespecttat you are a od person, paraphrasing here ;)

I am uncertain as to how off topic this is but biphobia and Bi Invisibilty may have different meanings. In particular your and darkeyes use of Bi Invisiblity. I know from having read a Bi website that Bi Invisibility is mostly about acknowledging BIsexuals existence such as in the media, and your question about whether your military leader should have acknowledgged bisexuals in his statement.

To the belief that bisexualsneedto come out or there isBi Invisibility, darkeyes and I havedebated this point aswell as others. I, and others see it differently. Right or wrong

[tenni]

Thank you Aeon. I am an imperfect man and I too may have been less than kind to you. I am told by someone that I respect that you are a good person, paraphrasing here ;)

I am uncertain as to how off topic this is but biphobia and Bi Invisibilty may have different meanings? In particular your and darkeyes use of Bi Invisiblity. I know from having read a Bi website that Bi Invisibility is mostly about acknowledging Bisexuals existence such as in the media, and your question about whether your military leader should have acknowledgged bisexuals in his statement, history etc.

To the belief that bisexuals need tocome out or there is Bi Invisibility, darkeyes and I have debated this point as well as others. I, and others see it differently.

[tenni]

sorry...Right or wrong I see the out need as a political gay movement idea supported so it semsto me by gay activists andsome bis. I wrote somewhere else that there is more than one way to deal with bi issues other than going around saying that you are bi. You can standup to correct perceptions without addig that you are bi and goto pride parades etc. Just my opinion.

[darkeyes]

You can and should stand up to correct perceptions, tenni, but to make real progress, we need some kind of organised political pressure group..that's what the lgbt is, even if it is very loose.. there are those who think it should have a strong directional centre, but this would stifle so much of what we are about by making it far too rigid and inflexible.. and those who for instance think that the b in lgbt should leave and make their own way... I understand the reasoning behind this even if I disagree with it because I'm of the opinion we have far too much in common to dismantle a loose political alliance which has served us well for so many decades.. that each part should listen to the other more I think is a lesson to be learned and eaach part should be more proactive in assisting the others in their aspirations, such as the lg part of the lgbt, being more proactive in dealing with the question of bierasure and invisibilty and biphobia.. and both being much more responsive to the smallest part of the alliance.. the t part...

..and btw.. where I come from babes, Tablet is a confectionery.. it is a luffly, very tasty sweetie (proper name Butter Tablet.. to some (nobs), Swiss Tablet).. it tastes a bit like fudge but is harder and infinitely more deeeelishus!!!!! Both me mum and Kate are expert producers of the stuff, an' even mine is not bad eitha... and we all luff it... bad for arse size but rationing limits the damage.. however difficult it is to resist.. if u like I will have wee wordie with both and they will do u a few tablet bars for next time u come over here... give it a power source and wireless and it will be at least as good and efficient as that tablet u tell us u are using!!!*laffs* And the Choccie Tablet is bloody good an all...:bigrin: Or ya can do ya own.. plenty recipes on the net!!!;) Think about it.. a new tablet everyday and ya can munch it wenyas finished...:)

[ExSailor]

It’s an insult to the bisexual community... 1. Actually what's insulting to bisexuals, the bisexual community, the LGBT community, and to most people on this site is how you have your own agendas against bisexual men, spread biphobia/pozphobia, spread completely wrong information about bisexual men and HIV, and claim that if you have sex with hetero men and not bisexual men you can't possibly get infected with HIV or an STD since hetero men are "clean" or "DDF" while those nasty bisexual men are just Petri dishes of HIV and STDs that we want to spread to others. :rolleyes: 2.You're neither intellectual, balanced, and you do not want to learn.

[darkeyes]

1. Actually what's insulting to bisexuals, the bisexual community, the LGBT community, and to most people on this site is how you have your own agendas against bisexual men, spread biphobia/pozphobia, spread completely wrong information about bisexual men and HIV, and claim that if you have sex with hetero men and not bisexual men you can't possibly get infected with HIV or an STD since hetero men are "clean" or "DDF" while those nasty bisexual men are just Petri dishes of HIV and STDs that we want to spread to others. :rolleyes: 2.You're neither intellectual, balanced, and you do not want to learn.
Click...click....click...click...click..click...cl ick...click....

[pepperjack]

1. Actually what's insulting to bisexuals, the bisexual community, the LGBT community, and to most people on this site is how you have your own agendas against bisexual men, spread biphobia/pozphobia, spread completely wrong information about bisexual men and HIV, and claim that if you have sex with hetero men and not bisexual men you can't possibly get infected with HIV or an STD since hetero men are "clean" or "DDF" while those nasty bisexual men are just Petri dishes of HIV and STDs that we want to spread to others. :rolleyes: 2.You're neither intellectual, balanced, and you do not want to learn.

" Most people on this site?" What's insulting to me is when someone arrogantly presumes to speak on my behalf.

[pepperjack]

It's a difficult thing, Pepper, this job of living.. we all like it simply to tootle along with no stress.. life isn't so easy and straightforward.. when we see what we perceive is injustice, or anything else which we believe is wrong, or hear the words of those who offend against what we see as common decency.. we can sit and stay quiet, or we can try and make them see the error of their ways.. we defend what we believe or we do not... and sometimes by doing so we shall create hostility against us and often feel hostility in return... it is almost inevitable.. it is something I recognise and accept and however unintententionally I accept that there will be times when my words will do just that.. just as occasionally, I will feel it necessary to be a little more barbed and will do so not accidentally... so I accept much of the implied criticism you make, but we debate or we do not.. we speak out or we stay silent and allow the opposing view to prevail unchallenged.. why else does this forum exist??? But I never speak out of hate for another.. I may hate what that other says or believes, but not the person him or herself... hostility to an idea is one thing.,, hostility to the person because that person holds a particular set of ideals, or is something I am not is quite another matter... it is that kind of hostility and intolerance that in common with society as a whole, in the United States and the UK and elsewhere, this site has a real and deepening problem...


I'm no stranger to hard living Dark and I certainly don't have the Pollyannaish mindset you referred to. And I have experienced the sometimes unfairness of life very deeply.It just appears to me that, for some, labeling someone as a ' hater ' has become too quick & habitual, like playing the race card, a smokescreen which invariably dissipates & loses its effectiveness. Becoming occasionally abrasive and angrily rebuking someone is not evidence of hatred. And as far as "implied', I got the impression the newcomers ( infiltrators? ) were being blamed for the site's perceived deterioration and contamination with "hate." Personally, I think the current site is an improved one. People are inherently resistant to change, even if it's for the better. Being a pacifist, I can understand your problem with hostility. But that is also inherent in human nature. I like to think of myself as a ' peaceful warrior .' I think we've gone down this road before. Maybe this is relevant, maybe not....I stumbled upon a very simple yet profound quote by one of our great leaders, Abraham Lincoln...." Whatever you are, be a good one.":)

[void()]

I was waiting for someone to bring up the "Rules" here, or lack thereof. First off, since I've never seen you bring this up to other offenders (I am just one) your purpose of addressing just me is suspect. Common sense dictates we should treat all with courtesy and respect. However it applies to everyone.


This is what I think the original poster was making an effort to express. I may be incorrect. If so my humble apologies for misinterpreting what found itself in that post.




I stand corrected.



3. I think the original poster was using the statement of some, whom say bisexuals will be granted rights alongside homosexuals, as an example of hate and clearly knows that statement is false. They were not making the statement themselves, rather pointing to it as a matter of reference. Again, If I've misread, apologies.


3 - Consider the fact that Florida has starting purging voters based on the unproven assumption of voter fraud. Now even if a million people say it, it must be proven, which has not been done.


So too with the problem of biphobia. It exists but to what extent? Where are it's victims? Who are the victims? I acknowledge biphobia exists but no one has produced one iota of evidence as to its degree or permeation.



I did not see that the original poster was distorting anything. I believe they posted an expression which points out hate has gained purchase on this site. It is a site organized and maintained for people to express diverse views, become a community from what the mainstream deem dregs of society. More importantly, this site was founded I believe in order to grant us, homosexual, lesbian, heterosexual, transgender, all a safe harbor from the gale of hate. Nonetheless, hate seems to have set upon us here.


What hate? Can you show me examples? I don't see hate here. I see occasional bias, intolerance and stupidity but not this hate you talk about. Lets not wallow in hyperbole here.



Wise words, let's see to it that everyone follows them.

I wish to point out that yes, prior to the site having changed format and possibly even servers, I did point out the rules to others on a few occasions. Please do not require me to grant specific dates or users whom received such interaction. Memory is quickly becoming an insipid bitch in regards to me.

Not sure Drew could provide such details either. If he has back ups, using grep would be a simple matter. However, me saying it would be simple and it being are subjective. I'm not versed enough in regex to use grep thoroughly myself. There are some whom visit here that are, Drew could ask a favor. My point being however, it is subjectively difficult to grant specifics. But I do recall pointing the rules out to others a few times.

It is not just you, and my post though framed upon yours was not intended as an attack of it, or you. I only desired to perhaps elucidate and articulate a point that the original poster posited several examples of hate. Your post supplied adequate framing basis whilst also seeming to require some response. In some regards your writing in such fashion is admirable. It is not an easy task to state a declarative as an interrogative. You seem apt to doing that well.

What the original poster presented as evidence of bi-phobia, is the same evidence I supply as hate. Fear often leads directly to hate. If you fear what is different, you may seek understanding it, or as is more readily the case, you destroy it. This fits nicely into your blog discussion of biases. It is only instinct to fear the different or unknown. Human beings are animals and grossly objects of animal instincts, such as fear. Fear creates biases in order to ensure survival, or avoiding the lose of something. In this case I think it is a lose of control.

Understand, prior to the internet bisexuality was far more invisible than written about already. With the advent of the internet, research, communication prospered. Bisexuality keeps gaining more awareness, being something which is discussed, pandered to/for/by the celebrities and media. And to think it took only a few good folks typing simple words to forge a new world. This new world is where Drew's site exists. It is a world that says yes bisexuality has been with us for aeons, no, bisexuality is not homosexuality or transgender. But, bisexuality accepts these, bisexuality even accepts heterosexuals.

Frankly, in what I see, there is a war between love and hate. Rather be a lover myself.

And I have rattled far too much here. Love accepts, hate destroys. Hopefully, we can all come to peace soon.

[Gearbox]

`
I was merely pointing out the physical presence of bisexuals at the fest, which by the way has bearing on bisexual awareness or don't you know?

If the problem is bisexual invisibility, pray tell, how do we make ourselves felt except in physical numbers?
I'm just guessing WHY bi's have less interest in these events than homosexuals. It's not zero, but notably less though, and there must be a reason for it.

Well I know a great way how to make us feel felt.:rolleyes: Besides that, I don't believe bisexuality is invisible to start with. It's ignored, denied, suppressed and very discrete. But not invisible. Not to those of which it matters.
We could come out in numbers and flood the streets to show those who don't give a toss about it. But, I get the impression that that isn't something most bi's are inclined to do.
I'd hazard a guess that bisexuality is viewed by bisexuals as a personal freedom, not an identity under threat of heterosexuality.
Guessing btw!:tongue:

[void()]

1. Anyway, I came to the outsider's defense by chiming in " He walked into a hostile environment." People can become infected by the ambiance of an environment and find themselves contributing to it, either inadvertently or deliberately.
&
2. It just appears to me that, for some, labeling someone as a ' hater ' has become too quick & habitual, like playing the race card, a smokescreen which invariably dissipates & loses its effectiveness. Becoming occasionally abrasive and angrily rebuking someone is not evidence of hatred. And as far as "implied', I got the impression the newcomers ( infiltrators? ) were being blamed for the site's perceived deterioration and contamination with "hate."


1. Void falls off his chair with a resounding thud. "Holy Bloody Saints! Pepper just might get it after all!"
Seriously, I am impressed albeit not wholly surprised. Figured you capable of seeing this, now, you've proven that out. I will remember it well even despite tricky memory at times. And yes, I'll hold you to it. Apologies if a high opinion of a friend offends you.

2. On my own behalf, not too concerned with newcomers. Welcome to them and glad for them visiting. There are a still it seems, long time site haunts whom are indeed not nice folks. Many have tried in various ways to be inclusive of them. Many have met failure because the inclusiveness was not reciprocated. Like to think some here are intelligent enough to see hate as hate.

I understand your point/s though in that it seems a passe 'card' to play. Will not disagree nor agree but it is noted, respected. We may even elect you as point. I'll pass over the hater labeling stickers to you in the next grand symposium meeting next month. :)

[tenni]

Aeon

I am wondering if you have read the San Francisco Human Rights Commission report on Bi Invisibility? If not, you may benefit from reading it. Google it and it is available as a PDF. This thread is about biphobia but this report makes me suspicious of GLBT organizations. Some posters mentioned that where they lived things were better for bisexuals in the GLBT. I personally am asupporter of bisexuals being more independent but acknowledge our weakness to unite. We do not seem tohave a strong enough cause or belief structure.

[pepperjack]

1. Void falls off his chair with a resounding thud. "Holy Bloody Saints! Pepper just might get it after all!"
Seriously, I am impressed albeit not wholly surprised. Figured you capable of seeing this, now, you've proven that out. I will remember it well even despite tricky memory at times. And yes, I'll hold you to it. Apologies if a high opinion of a friend offends you.

2. On my own behalf, not too concerned with newcomers. Welcome to them and glad for them visiting. There are a still it seems, long time site haunts whom are indeed not nice folks. Many have tried in various ways to be inclusive of them. Many have met failure because the inclusiveness was not reciprocated. Like to think some here are intelligent enough to see hate as hate.

I understand your point/s though in that it seems a passe 'card' to play. Will not disagree nor agree but it is noted, respected. We may even elect you as point. I'll pass over the hater labeling stickers to you in the next grand symposium meeting next month. :)


Don't quite know what to make of this. Especially puzzling is " Apologies if a high opinion of a friend offends you." What friend are you referring to? And once again, the comment "Pepper just might get it after all," comes across as snide & condescending , trademark qualities of yours. Also, your closing comments hint at sarcasm. So which is it? Are you genuinely trying to get along again or are you baiting me...stupid question,I just realized, you wouldn't admit to it if it were true ( yes,smart people have their moments of stupidity ). I guess only time will tell.

[void()]

Don't quite know what to make of this. Especially puzzling is " Apologies if a high opinion of a friend offends you." What friend are you referring to? And once again, the comment "Pepper just might get it after all," comes across as snide & condescending , trademark qualities of yours. Also, your closing comments hint at sarcasm. So which is it? Are you genuinely trying to get along again or are you baiting me...stupid question,I just realized, you wouldn't admit to it if it were true ( yes,smart people have their moments of stupidity ). I guess only time will tell.

No condescension was meant. I am genuinely impressed you stepped outside the perceptions which conceived themselves on the forum. And yes, I can admit some of the perceptions were bore of inability to see you beyond my own ignorance. You stepped beyond that in the comments here, disproving a lot of negative perceptions I had of you. Thank you for being able to do that, and doing it.

Despite some disagreeing opinions, I would hope we could be friends. Guess that means you would be the friend to which I refer and have a high opinion of. I felt you were capable of revealing this level of understanding some time ago. You saw me misunderstanding you, chose to dump flack on me instead of revealing it. Granted, if I were perhaps in your shoes, I may have done the same. In fact, I know I have been cause of a lot of negativity. Some came from seeing you not able to admit understanding, and if you did and I missed it, then we can both laugh at the cosmos.

Yes my closing was sarcasm meant as friendly levity and jest. Friends do that from what I hear from people with friends. They joke around. I have no such stickers to dole out labeling haters, nor would I likely attend a symposium, monthly or otherwise. I'm trying to state a serious thing in a funny way. Probably no good at it as everything comes out/across wrong, argumentative. But I'm not trying to attack or cause a stir here. I'm genuinely making an effort to embrace merriment, friendship.

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm just guessing WHY bi's have less interest in these events than homosexuals. It's not zero, but notably less though, and there must be a reason for it.

Well I know a great way how to make us feel felt.:rolleyes: Besides that, I don't believe bisexuality is invisible to start with. It's ignored, denied, suppressed and very discrete. But not invisible. Not to those of which it matters.
We could come out in numbers and flood the streets to show those who don't give a toss about it. But, I get the impression that that isn't something most bi's are inclined to do.
I'd hazard a guess that bisexuality is viewed by bisexuals as a personal freedom, not an identity under threat of heterosexuality.
Guessing btw!:tongue:


I do not have the answers to your statements.... but most of the bisexuals that I know in NZ, ( allowing for a difference in culture and country ) don't want to be visible in the media cos they are tired of stereotype images in the media and public eye......

we did have a gay tv program in NZ ( since ended ) that was a gay and lesbian 30 minute / once a week program for the LGBT community...and it did cater for bisexual people in a very positive light, covering aspects like biphobia, bi invisibility, bi discrimination and bisexual relationships ( including multi partner / open relationships ) and something that a few bisexuals on the program referred to as the biggest issue within the bisexual community, BI ignorance.... or discounting the thoughts, feelings and interests of bisexuals that do not fit the *status quo * or pushing a bisexual agenda that is not inclusive of the bisexual community but only some of the bisexual community... and how it would serve to ensure a false image of bisexuality.....

the interesting thing about the bisexual attitude towards bisexuals in the media, is they wanted to be portrayed as committed people in long term relationships with a interest in both genders, but not as people that had a open relationship ( cos that was too slutty / swingerish ) as people that dealt positively with hiv / std ( cos it makes us look like we are diseased ) as positive, contributing members of society and employment ( cos that did not reflect the fact we like both genders ) etc etc...

the other thing that they talked about on the show is how so many bisexuals are not interested in the political / social arena and arguing over who was right or wrong... what mattered to them, was their partner/s, their marriage / relationships, jobs / employment, families..... and how with the introduction of the civil union law in NZ, there was nothing for the bisexual community to fight for.... there have been two other members of NZ in this site, that have also shared my understanding that the bisexual community in NZ is * dying * cos they no longer support their support groups / night clubs etc, with the result of many of them closing and only a few gay oriented clubs and bars remaining open...

I can not help but wonder if a lot of the bisexuals are only interested in sex and sexual activities without none of the social / political interaction, a bit like how some bisexuals only want the sex but none of the talking and emotional stuff...... so I would hazard a quess that you are right about the bisexuality as a personal freedom and not something that is under thread by heterosexuality or laws ( in the US as NZ LGBT are protected and have more rights than most of the US LGBT )

[darkeyes]

I'm no stranger to hard living Dark and I certainly don't have the Pollyannaish mindset you referred to. And I have experienced the sometimes unfairness of life very deeply.It just appears to me that, for some, labeling someone as a ' hater ' has become too quick & habitual, like playing the race card, a smokescreen which invariably dissipates & loses its effectiveness. Becoming occasionally abrasive and angrily rebuking someone is not evidence of hatred. And as far as "implied', I got the impression the newcomers ( infiltrators? ) were being blamed for the site's perceived deterioration and contamination with "hate." Personally, I think the current site is an improved one. People are inherently resistant to change, even if it's for the better. Being a pacifist, I can understand your problem with hostility. But that is also inherent in human nature. I like to think of myself as a ' peaceful warrior .' I think we've gone down this road before. Maybe this is relevant, maybe not....I stumbled upon a very simple yet profound quote by one of our great leaders, Abraham Lincoln...." Whatever you are, be a good one.":)
I have never read Pollyanna, Pepper... nor have I seen the film or any adaptation of it, save for a few clips over the years on telly.. it isn't that well known here and so not widely read... so I had to look up what u meant.. I am naturally an optimistic person, and always prefer to think the best of people, but this is difficult sometimes.

Structurally and presentationally the site is better than it was.. and in technology and facility.. it isn't much in understanding.. the current malaise of which I lament did not begin with recent newcomers, but long before they/it/he/she began kicking off, but that malaise has been increasingly been shown to breed less understanding and compassion for others as people in forums.. this began to be reflected in chat also, although how true this remains, I am unable to say... angrily rebuking others is not a sign if hate I agree, but complete contempt for, misrepresenting deliberately the views of, personally and aggressively attacking with considerable venom and hunting down to humiliate others is hardly a sign of love... this has increasingly been a feature of forums.. it is not all, or even most members by a long way, but a few who care not one jot for the feelings or opinions of others except to spew bile.. repeatedly what appear to be the same person/people are banned and return in new guises, appear to have multi accounts and continue to say the same thing.. it becomes wearing, and it is detrimental to any kind of proper discussion and debate..

I am no angel in debate Pepper, and am incredibly gobby, but I do try to be fair as far as I am able.. and I don't stalk.. I do get angry and I do rebuke, and sometimes deserve rebuke myself.. but I don't hate people in the least.. just the ideas they hold and what they say.. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but there are those on site who, for purposes of their own, and few in number, yet extremely vocal, do spout hate for others...I know the difference between being angry and handing out rebuke, and spewing hysterical bile. However flawed I am and for all my mistakes, I do try, however pathetically, to be what ole Abe wanted us to be... it's a pity not all can follow his advice...

[pepperjack]

I have never read Pollyanna, Pepper... nor have I seen the film or any adaptation of it, save for a few clips over the years on telly.. it isn't that well known here and so not widely read... so I had to look up what u meant.. I am naturally an optimistic person, and always prefer to think the best of people, but this is difficult sometimes.

Structurally and presentationally the site is better than it was.. and in technology and facility.. it isn't much in understanding.. the current malaise of which I lament did not begin with recent newcomers, but long before they/it/he/she began kicking off, but that malaise has been increasingly been shown to breed less understanding and compassion for others as people in forums.. this began to be reflected in chat also, although how true this remains, I am unable to say... angrily rebuking others is not a sign if hate I agree, but complete contempt for, misrepresenting deliberately the views of, personally and aggressively attacking with considerable venom and hunting down to humiliate others is hardly a sign of love... this has increasingly been a feature of forums.. it is not all, or even most members by a long way, but a few who care not one jot for the feelings or opinions of others except to spew bile.. repeatedly what appear to be the same person/people are banned and return in new guises, appear to have multi accounts and continue to say the same thing.. it becomes wearing, and it is detrimental to any kind of proper discussion and debate..

I am no angel in debate Pepper, and am incredibly gobby, but I do try to be fair as far as I am able.. and I don't stalk.. I do get angry and I do rebuke, and sometimes deserve rebuke myself.. but I don't hate people in the least.. just the ideas they hold and what they say.. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but there are those on site who, for purposes of their own, and few in number, yet extremely vocal, do spout hate for others...I know the difference between being angry and handing out rebuke, and spewing hysterical bile. However flawed I am and for all my mistakes, I do try, however pathetically, to be what ole Abe wanted us to be... it's a pity not all can follow his advice...


You're amusing,Dark. The expression Pollyannaish basically means looking at the world through rose-colored glasses, an unrealistic perspective. It was in response to your comment about people expecting to "tootle" through life without stress. No need to apologize for disagreeing with me. You're right. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I also agree with what Aeon once said, that most of the conflicts here seem to arise out of misinterpreting someone's comments. You're also right about your claims regarding yourself. In following your posts, I have seen a consistent humane intelligence & wisdom about you & I have grown to genuinely like & respect you ( don't misinterpret; I'm not " fancying" you;) Not long ago, I read an editorial by a local doctor who happens to be an atheist. I found his argument so compelling & thought-provoking, I shared it with a pastor friend of mine. See, I can be objective.:)

[darkeyes]

You're amusing,Dark. The expression Pollyannaish basically means looking at the world through rose-colored glasses, an unrealistic perspective. It was in response to your comment about people expecting to "tootle" through life without stress. No need to apologize for disagreeing with me. You're right. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I also agree with what Aeon once said, that most of the conflicts here seem to arise out of misinterpreting someone's comments. You're also right about your claims regarding yourself. In following your posts, I have seen a consistent humane intelligence & wisdom about you & I have grown to genuinely like & respect you ( don't misinterpret; I'm not " fancying" you;) Not long ago, I read an editorial by a local doctor who happens to be an atheist. I found his argument so compelling & thought-provoking, I shared it with a pastor friend of mine. See, I can be objective.:)
*laffs.. fancying me wouldn't do u much good Pepper... and the thought never entered my head for a second... all we can do pepper is to say out bit, as best we can, and hope people listen... if we convince then fine, we have achieved something... if not we have tried our best and that is what matters.. people will always disagree... that's the nature of our kind.. it stretches us and makes us continue our search for knowledge and to be better.. human beings always have to prove something.. and prove others wrong.. nothing wrong in that at all.. but there is a way to do that and not to... I much prefer to argue as fairly as I am able and as honestly, and to keep the personal out of it if I can... it is nicer to be nice and I find easier than not to be... I just wish some others could feel the same way... the world would be a far more pleasant place if that was so...

[pepperjack]

No condescension was meant. I am genuinely impressed you stepped outside the perceptions which conceived themselves on the forum. And yes, I can admit some of the perceptions were bore of inability to see you beyond my own ignorance. You stepped beyond that in the comments here, disproving a lot of negative perceptions I had of you. Thank you for being able to do that, and doing it.

Despite some disagreeing opinions, I would hope we could be friends. Guess that means you would be the friend to which I refer and have a high opinion of. I felt you were capable of revealing this level of understanding some time ago. You saw me misunderstanding you, chose to dump flack on me instead of revealing it. Granted, if I were perhaps in your shoes, I may have done the same. In fact, I know I have been cause of a lot of negativity. Some came from seeing you not able to admit understanding, and if you did and I missed it, then we can both laugh at the cosmos.

Yes my closing was sarcasm meant as friendly levity and jest. Friends do that from what I hear from people with friends. They joke around. I have no such stickers to dole out labeling haters, nor would I likely attend a symposium, monthly or otherwise. I'm trying to state a serious thing in a funny way. Probably no good at it as everything comes out/across wrong, argumentative. But I'm not trying to attack or cause a stir here. I'm genuinely making an effort to embrace merriment, friendship.


I still really don't have a clue what you're referring to that made you change your opinions about me. Sarcasm is one of those difficult-to gauge responses at times, especially in this medium of expression. It can be vicious & attacking or playful, joking. The Bible says, " Blessed are the peacemakers." So be it.:)

[void()]

I still really don't have a clue what you're referring to that made you change your opinions about me.Thought I quoted it earlier in thread. Ooops. *LOL*

[darkeyes]

I still really don't have a clue what you're referring to that made you change your opinions about me. Sarcasm is one of those difficult-to gauge responses at times, especially in this medium of expression. It can be vicious & attacking or playful, joking. The Bible says, " Blessed are the peacemakers." So be it.:)
Mayb Voidie fances the rocks ofya ya daft ole bugger!! *laffs*. Maybe it's just cos ur nice.. wich u are really.. bit of a reactionary ole sod.. but far from irredeemable...;) Like u too btw if I may return a compliment u gave earlier...:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

Thought I quoted it earlier in thread. Ooops. *LOL*


Ok, I backed up in the thread & I think I found what you meant, but " ...might be getting it after all?" I've got 20 years of hard-living experiences over you, buddy. Can you give me some credit for having attained some insight into people?

[pepperjack]

Mayb Voidie fances the rocks ofya ya daft ole bugger!! *laffs*. Maybe it's just cos ur nice.. wich u are really.. bit of a reactionary ole sod.. but far from irredeemable...;) Like u too btw if I may return a compliment u gave earlier...:bigrin:


" fances the rocks ofya?" Now I think I need a little help with that expression.:smilies15

[darkeyes]

Should be fancies... typo... soz.. make ne more sense yet???;) Betcha Voidie knows 'zactly wot I wos sayin.. tee hee

[pepperjack]

Should be fancies... typo... soz.. make ne more sense yet???;) Betcha Voidie knows 'zactly wot I wos sayin.. tee hee


Irony of ironies...my adversary fancying me & an atheist telling me I'm redeemable.:smilies15

[darkeyes]

Irony of ironies...my adversary fancying me & an atheist telling me I'm redeemable.:smilies15
Complicated lot we human beings, hey, Pepper?:tongue:

[æonpax]

I wish to point out that yes, prior to the site having changed format and possibly even servers, I did point out the rules to others on a few occasions. Please do not require me to grant specific dates or users whom received such interaction. Memory is quickly becoming an insipid bitch in regards to me.
Not sure Drew could provide such details either. If he has back ups, using grep would be a simple matter. However, me saying it would be simple and it being are subjective. I'm not versed enough in regex to use grep thoroughly myself. There are some whom visit here that are, Drew could ask a favor. My point being however, it is subjectively difficult to grant specifics. But I do recall pointing the rules out to others a few times.
It is not just you, and my post though framed upon yours was not intended as an attack of it, or you. I only desired to perhaps elucidate and articulate a point that the original poster posited several examples of hate. Your post supplied adequate framing basis whilst also seeming to require some response. In some regards your writing in such fashion is admirable. It is not an easy task to state a declarative as an interrogative. You seem apt to doing that well.
What the original poster presented as evidence of bi-phobia, is the same evidence I supply as hate. Fear often leads directly to hate. If you fear what is different, you may seek understanding it, or as is more readily the case, you destroy it. This fits nicely into your blog discussion of biases. It is only instinct to fear the different or unknown. Human beings are animals and grossly objects of animal instincts, such as fear. Fear creates biases in order to ensure survival, or avoiding the lose of something. In this case I think it is a lose of control.
Understand, prior to the internet bisexuality was far more invisible than written about already. With the advent of the internet, research, communication prospered. Bisexuality keeps gaining more awareness, being something which is discussed, pandered to/for/by the celebrities and media. And to think it took only a few good folks typing simple words to forge a new world. This new world is where Drew's site exists. It is a world that says yes bisexuality has been with us for aeons, no, bisexuality is not homosexuality or transgender. But, bisexuality accepts these, bisexuality even accepts heterosexuals.
Frankly, in what I see, there is a war between love and hate. Rather be a lover myself.
And I have rattled far too much here. Love accepts, hate destroys. Hopefully, we can all come to peace soon.
`
It depends on how you define “hate.” I’ve had my daughters say they hate me because for various reasons (like; “no you can’t go out tonight”) I’ve also seen many examples of something mistaken for hate that is no more than frustration, misunderstanding or momentary anger. Then there are these “hate” crimes which from the start, are misnomers because it assumes hate is the over-riding factor when other possible motivations including the pathologically dysfunctional or emotional obsession, may be to blame. Certain actions can be seen as “hateful” but only euphemistically.

All I’m saying is that my definition of “hate” allows for the benefit of the doubt and I just do not see any “all-consuming” hate here. I try to exercise some discretion in what is fast becoming, a victim oriented society.

[darkeyes]

`
It depends on how you define “hate.” I’ve had my daughters say they hate me because for various reasons (like; “no you can’t go out tonight”) I’ve also seen many examples of something mistaken for hate that is no more than frustration, misunderstanding or momentary anger. Then there are these “hate” crimes which from the start, are misnomers because it assumes hate is the over-riding factor when other possible motivations including the pathologically dysfunctional or emotional obsession, may be to blame. Certain actions can be seen as “hateful” but only euphemistically.

All I’m saying is that my definition of “hate” allows for the benefit of the doubt and I just do not see any “all-consuming” hate here. I try to exercise some discretion in what is fast becoming, a victim oriented society.
It is not so much the hate.. there are few members who really hate, but they exist, and their bile tells me so and occasionally, thankfully quite rarely, someone will post what is certainly and expression of "all consuming" hate..... it is the anger, contempt, bad manners, deliberate misrepresentation which some will insist on deploying.. attempts to ridicule and discredit the person, not the opinions held..and what seems to be the continued use of multi ID's by a very few to prove, not their point, but that they are not alone their view as if such stupidity does convince.. some will say anything to try and win an argument, and often in an attempt to humiliate another...the site has had trolls for a number of years, and there have been many discussions about the problem of trollism.. but the problem persists and we no longer discuss them as trolls, but that is what they are and they still abound... the atmosphere on site has degenerated and it is much less fun and certainly much less fair than once, debate is all too often poisoned by all of these failings I mention, and there is less respect for the opposing opinions than in what seems now the dim and distant past..

Like you, Joan, my way is to allow for the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes we allow that to go too far... I do not suffer from a "victim" mentality which is why I argue in the manner I do.. that there is unfairness in our societies is unquestioned and there is unfairness towards all groups of people, but we will not cure those unfairnesses by treating and arguing with others in a way which does nothing but create a bitter and poisoned atmosphere...

[Gearbox]

the interesting thing about the bisexual attitude towards bisexuals in the media, is they wanted to be portrayed as committed people in long term relationships with a interest in both genders, but not as people that had a open relationship ( cos that was too slutty / swingerish ) as people that dealt positively with hiv / std ( cos it makes us look like we are diseased ) as positive, contributing members of society and employment ( cos that did not reflect the fact we like both genders ) etc etc...
Any sexuality would have a cheek to claim that image for all. We all know it's BS.lol
It would be nice if we all just admitted to being Human, and not pretend that we conform to 'norms' to please others. It doesn't work for hetero's and it won't work for bi's & gays either. Not unless the 'norm' is your personal 'norm'.
There are no Slut Parades, or Open Relationship Parades. For the same reason as few Bi Parades IMO. We don't need permission or an crispy clean image.lol

[æonpax]

It is not so much the hate.. there are few members who really hate, but they exist, and their bile tells me so and occasionally, thankfully quite rarely, someone will post what is certainly and expression of "all consuming" hate..... it is the anger, contempt, bad manners, deliberate misrepresentation which some will insist on deploying.. attempts to ridicule and discredit the person, not the opinions held..and what seems to be the continued use of multi ID's by a very few to prove, not their point, but that they are not alone their view as if such stupidity does convince.. some will say anything to try and win an argument, and often in an attempt to humiliate another...the site has had trolls for a number of years, and there have been many discussions about the problem of trollism.. but the problem persists and we no longer discuss them as trolls, but that is what they are and they still abound... the atmosphere on site has degenerated and it is much less fun and certainly much less fair than once, debate is all too often poisoned by all of these failings I mention, and there is less respect for the opposing opinions than in what seems now the dim and distant past..

Like you, Joan, my way is to allow for the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes we allow that to go too far... I do not suffer from a "victim" mentality which is why I argue in the manner I do.. that there is unfairness in our societies is unquestioned and there is unfairness towards all groups of people, but we will not cure those unfairnesses by treating and arguing with others in a way which does nothing but create a bitter and poisoned atmosphere...
`
I have no doubt hate exists here as it exists everywhere. I’m just not looking for it. Online, due to being anonymous, people feel free to engage in conduct that they might not otherwise do in public. That’s the main problem.

I’ve always been big on discussing, on and off line. Back when I came online, late 90’s, I was in high school and as naive as hell about the web. My first real active participation in online discourse was in the “Newsgroups” or “USENET.” 95% of the “rooms” or “groups” there have no rules, mods or owners. Not for the faint of heart, weenies, wimps, self-victims and whiners. It was a double whammy for me, a young female. No one to complain too. Rather than run, I learned how to take insults and dish them right back. Luckily, it’s not all like that but it still is pretty rough. Hate exists there…unbridled and seething with venom.

I used to be real active on “Shy-Bi”, a female only bisexual site. I saw no hate there but there are so many infernal cliques that are so diametrically polar (most having nothing to do with sexuality) that meaningful discussion about controversial or even topical subjects is worthless without involving groups snipping at each other. Worse, the mods there had their own clique and that was as annoying as hell. I’ll pass.

Every group, forum and site has it’s share of trolls, malcontents, shills, sock-puppets, astroturfers and sicko’s. I recognize and ignore them…not mechanically but mentally.

At least in the US, girl, civility and common courtesy has been in sharp decline. Political and religious ideology has encouraged rude and offensive behavior. Pundits such as Rush Limbaugh have become very wealthy that way. I take these people in stride and have more pity than anger at them.

Nice thing about the internet as opposed to real life; it has an “Off” switch.

[tenni]

Any sexuality would have a cheek to claim that image for all. We all know it's BS.lol
It would be nice if we all just admitted to being Human, and not pretend that we conform to 'norms' to please others. It doesn't work for hetero's and it won't work for bi's & gays either. Not unless the 'norm' is your personal 'norm'.
There are no Slut Parades, or Open Relationship Parades. For the same reason as few Bi Parades IMO. We don't need permission or an crispy clean image.lol
-
One realty is that bisexuals are not all the same. I agree with gear that norms for bisexuals much like other sexualities do not all fit into what LDD posts. Hopefully, thsoe who do meet his concept of what is agood bisexual or his norm are more open. I do not know if I would join a bi slut parade but I sure ashell would say YES some bisexuals are involved in casual sex ..just like gsys and hetros. Dsmn proud to accept that diversity in how bi people chose to live their life!

[Long Duck Dong]

Any sexuality would have a cheek to claim that image for all. We all know it's BS.lol
It would be nice if we all just admitted to being Human, and not pretend that we conform to 'norms' to please others. It doesn't work for hetero's and it won't work for bi's & gays either. Not unless the 'norm' is your personal 'norm'.
There are no Slut Parades, or Open Relationship Parades. For the same reason as few Bi Parades IMO. We don't need permission or an crispy clean image.lol

lol I agree with you there...lol.... being human is the norm.... and personally, as far as I can concerned, there is no sexuality * norm*.... just a image / list of *criteria * that people can use to define the sexuality of others and what * looks good * or how they expect others to live and think..... but its often what people will use in order to say who * fits the criteria * and who doesn't

I often wonder if a society like there is in the children of the earth books, is actually the way that society should be...... its set in the caveman days, but in the last book, jean auel wrote, there was a couple of gay males ( married ) that were openly accepted as part of the community and indeed one of the gay males was seen as * one who serves the mother * ( a type of healer / priest / wise person )... and all through the books, multiple partners / companionship and the right to marry more than one person, were seen as normal... one marriage was a female with two husbands....

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....

[tenni]

I like that story's scenario LDD.

[darkeyes]

I have always considered ourselves far more than our sexuality, Duckie.. and in the last few years, even more so.. folk are folk and that's how I treat them and as an adult at least is how I have always treated them.. our sexuality is important, and we seek those of our own sexuality out for purpose of love, marriage, sex..life companionship.. but our sexuality is a small part of our whole being.. we are much more than, str8, or gay, or bi or trans..

I have on a number of occasions in forums stated that I dream of the day when we just are.. and are allowed to be, and where sexuality is no more thought of than the colour of our eyes or what our hobbies are.. being human and living life where we and others don't give a bugger about the sexuality of others.. I don't now.. they are who they are.. human beings.. the same as me but different with their own characteristics and personality...and so like, tenni, I too like the picture painted, and have all of my adult life and, if not always before, it was at a young age I began to think such things and work them through...

[æonpax]

lol I agree with you there...lol.... being human is the norm.... and personally, as far as I can concerned, there is no sexuality * norm*.... just a image / list of *criteria * that people can use to define the sexuality of others and what * looks good * or how they expect others to live and think..... but its often what people will use in order to say who * fits the criteria * and who doesn't

I often wonder if a society like there is in the children of the earth books, is actually the way that society should be...... its set in the caveman days, but in the last book, jean auel wrote, there was a couple of gay males ( married ) that were openly accepted as part of the community and indeed one of the gay males was seen as * one who serves the mother * ( a type of healer / priest / wise person )... and all through the books, multiple partners / companionship and the right to marry more than one person, were seen as normal... one marriage was a female with two husbands....

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....
`
If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’


******


Interesting. The series of books you mentioned, Earth's Children, (written by the same author as “The Clan of the Cave Bear”- Jean M. Auel) chooses a female, Ayla, as it’s fulcrum. She acts as an innovator, inventor, visionary and perhaps, the “Magna Mater” of all that is yet to be. The very fact a woman such as this, even exists, is not well received (to say the least) amongst the more androcentric minded of the clans and humanoid species.

[darkeyes]

`
If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’


******


Interesting. The series of books you mentioned, Earth's Children, (written by the same author as “The Clan of the Cave Bear”- Jean M. Auel) chooses a female, Ayla, as it’s fulcrum. She acts as an innovator, inventor, visionary and perhaps, the “Magna Mater” of all that is yet to be. The very fact a woman such as this, even exists, is not well received (to say the least) amongst the more androcentric minded of the clans and humanoid species.

I know ur not knocking it Joan, but there is nothing at all wrong with the dream, and a half hearted endorsement is almost a knock.. it limits our aspiration by subconsciously limiting our vision of what can be...I may not live under the illusion that perfection or Utopia will ever be achieved, but I live my life as if it will, and do my little bit to enable humanity to get as close to that Utopia as it is possible to do.. to do other, and to ever claim something is unachievable is not in my nature, and one thing I don't believe is unachievable is a world where we are and are allowed to be and where our fellow human beings don't give a sod and about the fact that we are of a different sexuality, colour, religion or creed.. I don't believe for a moment that we need a Utopia for human beings to learn to live together, understand and accept difference.. and if I may say so, where in real life, one such as Ayla can exist, be accepted and no one will blink an eye...

I am not deluded, but nor do I see the limits of human aspiration and achievement.. indeed over future millenia, if we survive and do not exterminate ouselves, I don't think there are any.. at least not until the cosmos itself has decided it is done with us...:bigrin:

[æonpax]

I know ur not knocking it Joan, but there is nothing at all wrong with the dream, and a half hearted endorsement is almost a knock.. it limits our aspiration by subconsciously limiting our vision of what can be...I may not live under the illusion that perfection or Utopia will ever be achieved, but I live my life as if it will, and do my little bit to enable humanity to get as close to that Utopia as it is possible to do.. to do other, and to ever claim something is unachievable is not in my nature, and one thing I don't believe is unachievable is a world where we are and are allowed to be and where our fellow human beings don't give a sod and about the fact that we are of a different sexuality, colour, religion or creed.. I don't believe for a moment that we need a Utopia for human beings to learn to live together, understand and accept difference.. and if I may say so, where in real life, one such as Ayla can exist, be accepted and no one will blink an eye...

I am not deluded, but nor do I see the limits of human aspiration and achievement.. indeed over future millenia, if we survive and do not exterminate ouselves, I don't think there are any.. at least not until the cosmos itself has decided it is done with us...:bigrin:
`

You have your way of looking at life, I have my way. Both are legitimate and one, no better or worse, than the other.

[darkeyes]

`

You have your way of looking at life, I have my way. Both are legitimate and one, no better or worse, than the other.
Both are as valid as the other.. whether no better or worse, there I can take issue.. purely subjective judgement of course, but it is my judgement..;)

[void()]

Ok, I backed up in the thread & I think I found what you meant, but " ...might be getting it after all?" I've got 20 years of hard-living experiences over you, buddy. Can you give me some credit for having attained some insight into people?

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

[elian]

`
If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

I will grant that perfection maybe should not be the ultimate goal, but If humans knew where they really came from there would be no discord.

[pepperjack]

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.


And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting.:rolleyes: Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.:shades:

[pepperjack]

I will grant that perfection maybe should not be the ultimate goal, but If humans knew where they really came from there would be no discord.

This post is simultaneously cryptic, provocative & coincidental to me. I'm hopefully planning to see the current sci-fi blockbuster Prometheus ( in 3D ),sometime this week. I read a very favorable review of the film which stated it raises challenging questions about the origins of human life. Also, are you privy to some special insight that would compel you to make such a post?

[void()]

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting.:rolleyes: Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.:shades:

Void sighs, shakes his noggin and grins, sighs again and wanders on.

[elian]

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

[Gearbox]

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....
That's probably right. You put any 2 Humans together and you get a command structure. Look at relationships!lol
And the higher the number, the more authoritarian we get. Can't have us all living in chaos can we? IMO if there's no threat of chaos, we create it, just so we can try to invoke order.
I see that with myself and my little girl often. I give her rules, and she points out when certain rules only take away her freedom/independance and have no real use other than that.:eek2: And I have to agree! But I still crave order so I feel 'useful'.lol

[elian]

Bi people are going to keep being bi - no matter how much people want to discredit those feelings - thank goodness for that. It's a good lesson to learn - that you can love anyone ..

[void()]

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting.:rolleyes: Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.:shades:

My apologies for not replying directly, clearly earlier. A respite in
order to ensure a well thought response was needed. Frankly, I can see
even a well thought response would not matter much in this case. I'll
maintain reticence per regards you from now on. That may perhaps be
the best diplomatic course.

[void()]

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

Unable to work at welding as well due to lacking smell. And I'm good with an oxygen & acetylene torch kit. Used to do braising well. I was good at cutting with a torch. Welding with one, I could pass x-ray testing.

Not able to work at water treatment. They use chlorine in the process, which requires you being able to smell it in case of a leak. If honest, I really should have never been allowed in a kitchen to cook either due to having no sense of spoilage as alerted via odor. Also since I do not smell, taste is quite limited. Gourmet for me is adding lots of salt, garlic or sugar.

As far as people, mental and emotional go, I am accepting that everyone has trouble with interpersonal communication. Some, like myself have really bad trouble because at times we allow emotions to gain full control. Also people like me get used to the idea of not asking for help, because of people like pepper, because of the fact that by the time we ask it could be too late. Besides everyone is already busy helping everyone else, there's never enough left over.

People like me also have difficulty relaxing. I'm sure you have noticed that over time. Sorry, I'm just wound too tight in considering others, considering me only comes to "keep in control." I'm not telling you anything you have not dealt with as well. Trust in self is something difficult to concede. We talked about forgiveness last night. Forgiving the self is difficult as well. As far as I am able to discern, I'm not alone in needing to forgive myself. Others might benefit in forgiving themselves. Others means everyone in general in this context, I am not singling anyone or any group out.

Pepper, since I know you're scrutinizing this very post of mine, I forgive you. I do not hate you. I do not love you. I am indifferent to you from now on. That is genuinely all I need or have desire that you know, all I care to express per regards you. If you want to keep slinging insults feel free. You will only be insulting yourself to continue. We just don't communicate. I'll leave it at that because it is clear, no matter how I try to accommodate communication it is given back as a slap in the face.

Please excuse me. I need to attend a few plot ideas and some household chores.

[elian]

Also, are you privy to some special insight that would compel you to make such a post?

Just a lifetime of experience, a command to follow my heart and some videos from crazy people on the internet. The fringe isn't always the best place to hang out, but it is definitely where the most interesting things happen.

In response to a poem that void sent me I got to thinking what the future might, in fact - look like - with the understanding that many people are in pain or confusion right now. People predict the end of days because they can't imagine a world beyond what they know - but I don't necessarily think it is bad or all doom. I believe in the positive power of humanity to make a difference. We have all made mistakes and having the power to forgive and let go is very, very important. Our institutions and heroes are NOT perfect, not even close..compassion is the key..otherwise you are trapped in anger, resentment, frustration - the Buddha was persistent, he cultivated a spiritual mind that was able to remain at peace.

My whole life people have told me no, you can't do that, you can't be this, you can't love who your heart loves. Sooner or later I'm going to get tired of hearing it. I get frustrated, Instead of lashing out in anger as so many others have done I have decided the best way forward is through love..to help people when I can. Divine love is the best form, to put it simply - in giving we receive - we can share in that love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLltt5cPDOc ?

Need to make a choice. At the very core of the thing there is no loud screeching, no guilt, no shame, no proselytizing - just gratitude, desire, love and healing..in silence. It is available to all people.

We are not "apart" from the divine and we never were, if the Earth stopped growing vegetables tomorrow, could we save ourselves? We take so many things for granted and ignore the very essence of who we are. We must all recognize we have a part to play, when I cut down someone else out of spite I am hurting myself. To help other people is more than just being altruistic.

So when I see people write something down like that book, like it's in concrete, unchangeable I say "No!", we are not doomed. Things DO change, we are NOT "incapable" of learning to treat each other with respect and love..look at just how far we have come in same sex rights just in the last 50 years??

People are so used to being told they are inadequate that they have forgotten what it means to have real power. NEVER lose hope, because you are not alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOfhbLn8fw8

Sorry for posting off topic.

[pepperjack]

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.


Seriously, Void, this is an " attempt at accommodating communication? " There are only two sentences in here that come close to that. Am I actually expected to interpret the bulk of this inane meandering as a reply to a simple question I posed? When you said you hoped we could become friends, I somehow (and I guess wrongly) assumed we could engage in some honest & mature dialogue. My response was not intended as a slap in the face & did not involve any malice. From my perspective, it was subjective, candid, civil, constructive criticism.

[pepperjack]

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.


I didn't say it, I implied it and I guess , rather obviously. But then, as the saying goes..." If the shoe fits...." In response to your question at the end , no, but I have also worked as a welder and I can't grasp why an inability to smell would be a handicap; maybe even a blessing considering how some aromas in a fab/machine shop border on the pungent. Actually, I was thinking of other tenuous excuses he had posted here to justify that course of action (an inability to deal with workplace drama, for instance) when I made that post. I just don't consider throwing in the towel at 40 an honest effort. There are too many of us out here in the workforce that employ ferocious tenacity to forge and press our way through yet another day in spite of our afflictions, pain, fatigue, depression, physical handicap...whatever. I for one,don't even plan on retiring. I'm going to keep working until I drop (which just might happen, literally) and there are many other oldsters like me emerging daily. What's one of the currently popular idioms among guys of your generation? Oh, yeah...."MAN UP!"

[pepperjack]

Unable to work at welding as well due to lacking smell. And I'm good with an oxygen & acetylene torch kit. Used to do braising well. I was good at cutting with a torch. Welding with one, I could pass x-ray testing.

Not able to work at water treatment. They use chlorine in the process, which requires you being able to smell it in case of a leak. If honest, I really should have never been allowed in a kitchen to cook either due to having no sense of spoilage as alerted via odor. Also since I do not smell, taste is quite limited. Gourmet for me is adding lots of salt, garlic or sugar.

As far as people, mental and emotional go, I am accepting that everyone has trouble with interpersonal communication. Some, like myself have really bad trouble because at times we allow emotions to gain full control. Also people like me get used to the idea of not asking for help, because of people like pepper, because of the fact that by the time we ask it could be too late. Besides everyone is already busy helping everyone else, there's never enough left over.

People like me also have difficulty relaxing. I'm sure you have noticed that over time. Sorry, I'm just wound too tight in considering others, considering me only comes to "keep in control." I'm not telling you anything you have not dealt with as well. Trust in self is something difficult to concede. We talked about forgiveness last night. Forgiving the self is difficult as well. As far as I am able to discern, I'm not alone in needing to forgive myself. Others might benefit in forgiving themselves. Others means everyone in general in this context, I am not singling anyone or any group out.

Pepper, since I know you're scrutinizing this very post of mine, I forgive you. I do not hate you. I do not love you. I am indifferent to you from now on. That is genuinely all I need or have desire that you know, all I care to express per regards you. If you want to keep slinging insults feel free. You will only be insulting yourself to continue. We just don't communicate. I'll leave it at that because it is clear, no matter how I try to accommodate communication it is given back as a slap in the face.

Please excuse me. I need to attend a few plot ideas and some household chores.


I don't hate you either Void. I don't even dislike you right now ( but I have at times, even intensely, which I know I've made obvious) but I'm having difficulty feeling respect for you on this issue. I can't help but feel you still have other options. What about the myriad opportunities for working online these days? You seem to have sufficient tech savvy to pursue that course of action.

[pepperjack]

Just a lifetime of experience, a command to follow my heart and some videos from crazy people on the internet. The fringe isn't always the best place to hang out, but it is definitely where the most interesting things happen.

In response to a poem that void sent me I got to thinking what the future might, in fact - look like - with the understanding that many people are in pain or confusion right now. People predict the end of days because they can't imagine a world beyond what they know - but I don't necessarily think it is bad or all doom. I believe in the positive power of humanity to make a difference. We have all made mistakes and having the power to forgive and let go is very, very important. Our institutions and heroes are NOT perfect, not even close..compassion is the key..otherwise you are trapped in anger, resentment, frustration - the Buddha was persistent, he cultivated a spiritual mind that was able to remain at peace.

My whole life people have told me no, you can't do that, you can't be this, you can't love who your heart loves. Sooner or later I'm going to get tired of hearing it. I get frustrated, Instead of lashing out in anger as so many others have done I have decided the best way forward is through love..to help people when I can. Divine love is the best form, to put it simply - in giving we receive - we can share in that love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLltt5cPDOc ?

Need to make a choice. At the very core of the thing there is no loud screeching, no guilt, no shame, no proselytizing - just gratitude, desire, love and healing..in silence. It is available to all people.

We are not "apart" from the divine and we never were, if the Earth stopped growing vegetables tomorrow, could we save ourselves? We take so many things for granted and ignore the very essence of who we are. We must all recognize we have a part to play, when I cut down someone else out of spite I am hurting myself. To help other people is more than just being altruistic.

So when I see people write something down like that book, like it's in concrete, unchangeable I say "No!", we are not doomed. Things DO change, we are NOT "incapable" of learning to treat each other with respect and love..look at just how far we have come in same sex rights just in the last 50 years??

People are so used to being told they are inadequate that they have forgotten what it means to have real power. NEVER lose hope, because you are not alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOfhbLn8fw8

Sorry for posting off topic.


I have among my books, one which compares the parallel teachings of Jesus & Buddha. There is a school of thought that theorizes that Jesus studied with Buddha during what is known historically as His( Jesus )missing years. One Buddhist I have personally known was Thai & came from generations of Buddhists. Anyway, after some time, I discovered she was very shallow & materialistic. This observation was confirmed to me by a very insightful person. Especially interesting & ironic to me is that I know Buddha was royalty, a prince who renounced his opulence to pursue a path of deprivation & spirituality. So much for the daily meditations she was always crowing about. Hypocrisy seems to be an inalienable human failing. Like the Muslim who stated, " I wish I had met your Christ before I met your Christian." You seemed to answer my question when stating "We are not apart from the divine and never were." This correlates with what I believe. One of my favorite scriptures in " that book" is..." Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"(Jeremiah 1:5 ). So, in addition to believing in an afterlife, I believe in a premortal life. I was fortunate today to get my wish & view Prometheus. The premise of how human life originated in the story was old news to me. The 3D visuals were spectacular at times. Today was the longest day of the year & it was that for me and it's not over yet.:2cents:

[elian]

I have among my books, one which compares the parallel teachings of Jesus & Buddha. There is a school of thought that theorizes that Jesus studied with Buddha during what is known historically as His( Jesus )missing years. One Buddhist I have personally known was Thai & came from generations of Buddhists. Anyway, after some time, I discovered she was very shallow & materialistic. This observation was confirmed to me by a very insightful person. Especially interesting & ironic to me is that I know Buddha was royalty, a prince who renounced his opulence to pursue a path of deprivation & spirituality. So much for the daily meditations she was always crowing about. Hypocrisy seems to be an inalienable human failing. Like the Muslim who stated, " I wish I had met your Christ before I met your Christian." You seemed to answer my question when stating "We are not apart from the divine and never were." This correlates with what I believe. One of my favorite scriptures in " that book" is..." Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"(Jeremiah 1:5 ). So, in addition to believing in an afterlife, I believe in a premortal life. I was fortunate today to get my wish & view Prometheus. The premise of how human life originated in the story was old news to me. The 3D visuals were spectacular at times. Today was the longest day of the year & it was that for me and it's not over yet.:2cents:

I don't know if Jesus studied WITH Buddha but I think he probably studied the same things. He brought some Eastern concepts to Western thought (or maybe he was just tired of all the hate?) When "The Purpose Driven Life" became so popular I decided to try reading a little of it because I wanted to see what people found so appealing. It basically takes Eastern Philosophy and reiterates the same concepts in Western terms. Of course there is a branch of Judaism that people don't talk about much as well; apparently SOME of the same people who put the "A" in "Abraham", who poured over the scriptures also had an unbelievably "mystical" side as well. They see God in everything.

I can't tell you that your materialistic friend is right or wrong, she is who she is - I am not here to debate one religion over another I see SOME elegance in all that I have encountered so far. Like any tool religion can be abused. I think LDD is right, we have lost our community. I'm not REALLY looking to start a war, I can only say that we are a lot more loved and we have a lot more power to change things than we give ourselves credit for.

I don't fear a few people denying that bisexuals exist, people have been denying things they don't want to believe in for a long time. But I have history, and this whole community of people who apparently know very well that it does exist - that's all the proof I need.

[void()]

Seriously, Void, this is an " attempt at accommodating communication? " There are only two sentences in here that come close to that. Am I actually expected to interpret the bulk of this inane meandering as a reply to a simple question I posed? When you said you hoped we could become friends, I somehow (and I guess wrongly) assumed we could engage in some honest & mature dialogue. My response was not intended as a slap in the face & did not involve any malice. From my perspective, it was subjective, candid, civil, constructive criticism.

It was me attempting to make light of past misunderstandings. As to 'manning up', I can tell you that I have been down that path quite a few times. Be assured I'm not merely 'giving up', rather taking an alternate route. You see, I have learned there are many ways to 'man up'. Not all involve walking around with a broken knee and not complaining. In fact it has been suggested that asking for help is a sign of 'manning up'.

Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men. Not saying you are, merely expressing dissatisfaction with a widely held stereo type which obviously causes much strife. It is that same stereotype that can cause me paralysis, anxiety, frustration and worse at times. You implying less of me by appealing to the authority of it isn't really constructive criticism, subjective, candid or civil. Further, it isn't really all that mature.

You have continually inferred, implied less of me as a person each time we interact. As such I have come to view you as an obstacle. Excuse me for stepping around you. I'm tired of bashing my head into immoveable walls, I'll just go around them, now. If that requires a little more time, more relaxing, thinking, so it does. At least I can work and do something I enjoy, without brick walls in the way.

Sense of smell could effect welding in the fact of possibly doing work in tunnel, sewer, mine etc, and being unable to smell hazardous fumes. It is similar in effect to working water treatment. You don't smell the danger, die or get hurt. Employers get lawyers calling that liability, employers do not want liabilities. Of course, there are shops. I went to apply at one, guys said I needed thirty years experience. I asked if no one hired how one was to get the experience? He could not offer a reply.

So in short, I worked shit work, I worked it hard for thirty five plus or minus years. I am what is deemed unskilled manual labor as a result. Frankly, I never earned enough wage to feel competent in learning a skill, much less feeling competent in myself to manage doing both. I learned what little I know of computing via trail and error, reading a bit here and there, more trail and error as a hobby. Did have certification to code html a while back. That expired and although I have kept somewhat abreast of it, I'm no web developer by any means.

I have considered computing as a field. I may even do some odd jobs in computing. But I enjoy having an end product. To that end I am planning on doing a bit of wood working as a hobby. If I make a few bucks off of that, great. But I'm not going to be doing it for making money. I have a couple of nephews whom are facing some rough stuff. Me picking up wood working can provide some quality time for helping them. Besides, I like making birdhouses, benches and generally useful things.

My rules though are simple. The wood working for me is a hobby. I can visibly see improvement in my own skill with it. I do not need, want a boss. I can see and know good quality work, in the wood work as well as being a good teacher and guide for nephews. if you see somebody taking a different path as giving up or being less, well, if I was not indifferent to you, pity might be a response. I learned long ago pity gets a person nowhere. As far as I can recall, I have not asked for pity here.

I have expressed things are what they are. I have expressed disillusionment with everything in general. I have expressed acceptance of it all. Yes, there is a difference in accepting and surrender. I do not surrender. Been on that road as well, not going back. I have expressed disliking things as they are, despite accepting them. Have even admitted to having my share of responsibility in a portion of things. Who is dumber, the guy who can finish a project with help but doesn't ask, or the one who tackles it alone and fails? For a long time I have been rather dumb, proud, stubborn ... 'manned up'.

I have grown and gotten wiser, more aware, more easily exhausted and ache filled too. I have come to know myself better. That knowledge suggests it is dumber to keep playing the big proud man. So, I take a different path. I go around walls, instead of beating myself up trying to go through them. To me, you're a wall, all of you have the same back and fronts, and you all look the same. Guess that also comes back to what folks told me regarding work. "It's nothing personal." I used my work at times to help an ailing mother, to feed a family, to pay for a brother's care. No, nothing personal at all. And it's nothing personal with you.

Excuse me, need to attend some chores.

[pepperjack]

It was me attempting to make light of past misunderstandings. As to 'manning up', I can tell you that I have been down that path quite a few times. Be assured I'm not merely 'giving up', rather taking an alternate route. You see, I have learned there are many ways to 'man up'. Not all involve walking around with a broken knee and not complaining. In fact it has been suggested that asking for help is a sign of 'manning up'.

Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men. Not saying you are, merely expressing dissatisfaction with a widely held stereo type which obviously causes much strife. It is that same stereotype that can cause me paralysis, anxiety, frustration and worse at times. You implying less of me by appealing to the authority of it isn't really constructive criticism, subjective, candid or civil. Further, it isn't really all that mature.

You have continually inferred, implied less of me as a person each time we interact. As such I have come to view you as an obstacle. Excuse me for stepping around you. I'm tired of bashing my head into immoveable walls, I'll just go around them, now. If that requires a little more time, more relaxing, thinking, so it does. At least I can work and do something I enjoy, without brick walls in the way.

Sense of smell could effect welding in the fact of possibly doing work in tunnel, sewer, mine etc, and being unable to smell hazardous fumes. It is similar in effect to working water treatment. You don't smell the danger, die or get hurt. Employers get lawyers calling that liability, employers do not want liabilities. Of course, there are shops. I went to apply at one, guys said I needed thirty years experience. I asked if no one hired how one was to get the experience? He could not offer a reply.

So in short, I worked shit work, I worked it hard for thirty five plus or minus years. I am what is deemed unskilled manual labor as a result. Frankly, I never earned enough wage to feel competent in learning a skill, much less feeling competent in myself to manage doing both. I learned what little I know of computing via trail and error, reading a bit here and there, more trail and error as a hobby. Did have certification to code html a while back. That expired and although I have kept somewhat abreast of it, I'm no web developer by any means.

I have considered computing as a field. I may even do some odd jobs in computing. But I enjoy having an end product. To that end I am planning on doing a bit of wood working as a hobby. If I make a few bucks off of that, great. But I'm not going to be doing it for making money. I have a couple of nephews whom are facing some rough stuff. Me picking up wood working can provide some quality time for helping them. Besides, I like making birdhouses, benches and generally useful things.

My rules though are simple. The wood working for me is a hobby. I can visibly see improvement in my own skill with it. I do not need, want a boss. I can see and know good quality work, in the wood work as well as being a good teacher and guide for nephews. if you see somebody taking a different path as giving up or being less, well, if I was not indifferent to you, pity might be a response. I learned long ago pity gets a person nowhere. As far as I can recall, I have not asked for pity here.

I have expressed things are what they are. I have expressed disillusionment with everything in general. I have expressed acceptance of it all. Yes, there is a difference in accepting and surrender. I do not surrender. Been on that road as well, not going back. I have expressed disliking things as they are, despite accepting them. Have even admitted to having my share of responsibility in a portion of things. Who is dumber, the guy who can finish a project with help but doesn't ask, or the one who tackles it alone and fails? For a long time I have been rather dumb, proud, stubborn ... 'manned up'.

I have grown and gotten wiser, more aware, more easily exhausted and ache filled too. I have come to know myself better. That knowledge suggests it is dumber to keep playing the big proud man. So, I take a different path. I go around walls, instead of beating myself up trying to go through them. To me, you're a wall, all of you have the same back and fronts, and you all look the same. Guess that also comes back to what folks told me regarding work. "It's nothing personal." I used my work at times to help an ailing mother, to feed a family, to pay for a brother's care. No, nothing personal at all. And it's nothing personal with you.

Excuse me, need to attend some chores.


No, in my eyes ...you are not less than a person, just difficult to understand at times. I have tried repeatedly to relate to you...most recently, your response on Aeon's Blog where we connected concerning Castaneda as well as other authors. I've even sent you a PM where I said I felt connected to you & you kind of blew it off. " Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men." This kind of line makes you uniquely, amusing....even endearing. You just don't get it; I have worked shit-work just as you.Excuse me, need to sit on the front porch with a cold beer on a Friday night, viewing the wide open western sky, halfway expecting some sort of astronomical anomaly. :)

[void()]

No, in my eyes ...you are not less than a person, just difficult to understand at times. I have tried repeatedly to relate to you...most recently, your response on Aeon's Blog where we connected concerning Castaneda as well as other authors. I've even sent you a PM where I said I felt connected to you & you kind of blew it off. " Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men." This kind of line makes you uniquely, amusing....even endearing. You just don't get it; I have worked shit-work just as you.Excuse me, need to sit on the front porch with a cold beer on a Friday night, viewing the wide open western sky, halfway expecting some sort of astronomical anomaly. :)

If you and I share such a connection, why the difficulty understanding? I have tried figuring that. Ultimately, I return to you not desiring to understand, or appearing not to understand. This to me reads as someone looking for a fight, for any reason they can point to as an excuse. "I could not understand x so, destroyed x."

You seem to use misunderstanding as bait. I dealt with that from someone whom taught me about the stereotype of 'real men'. I know that I can and am capable of writing well. You suggest misunderstanding as a means to goad and prod. Sorry, the one whom taught me was far better, or worse than you ever could be. Using such a tactic to imply inferiority and bolster yourself is unbecoming, if you are using it. Makes you look like a big blank wall to me.

I also know, at times I can be and am capable of being as dense as silt. Sometimes finding an appropriate means of expressing something is difficult for me. I do the best I can. I hope for the best in reception. We are not all uniform robots either, meaning at times some of us might relax and be informal. We are amongst friends whom understand here. Oh, that's right, you don't understand ... so you say. When something is expressed as clear as day, how can it be not understood?

I did not mean to seem to be 'blowing you off' regarding some common grounds. It is one aspect of living, being a person. It does not rule my life. I am not a fanatic over that, nor stark raving mad due to being consumed by it. Many have seen what they believe are spirits. I am not going to say I believe, or disbelieve wholly. Even having that experience does not infer belief in any form of deity. And I will not get bogged down into debate of religion, which is I sense where further discussion of that common ground would lead. We can agree to disagree, and I'm trying to politely do that. It's called diplomacy, I think.

I would sit and have a mixed drink with you. Rum and Coke is nice, or even just rum, once in a great while. It would probably be a rather quiet and uneventful evening. Alcoholism runs in mt family's blood. Does not mean I cannot drink responsibly on occasion. Have a fifth of rum here between two bottles, will probably last two or three years. <sarcasm>I'm really carrying on the family tradition. I'm a huge alcoholic.</sarcasm> Again, something else which does not control my life. It's called discipline, a will to persist I believe.

In case I'm not clear, those card carrying 'real men', they rape their wives and beat their children telling them they will never be anything. I was never his, my teacher's that is. I was never my father's either. I grew up around five or six, had to be my own father. Those 'real men' are either abusers or quitters, choosing to run off and neglect responsibility. Your appeal to that via suggesting to 'man up' was repugnant at best. Sorry, I'm not 'that' man but a different one. Stop equating me to 'those real men'. It would be too easy for me to follow their footsteps, I choose making my own path which is more difficult. It's called being mature, or so I'm told.

This is called me apologizing. Sometimes the best of friends can be the harshest critics. It might even serve a purpose. I have expressed things to you which I probably should have expressed to someone else. I could not while he lived, and would not with the other someone else. The one would have taken the vulnerability put on the block and butchered it. The other didn't care enough to notice, wanted to play daddy to a grown man. Both were <sarcasm> fine examples of card carrying real men.</sarcasm> Both were walls to me. Stepped around them using something called forgiveness. That's said to be having grace, I think.

[pepperjack]

If you and I share such a connection, why the difficulty understanding? I have tried figuring that. Ultimately, I return to you not desiring to understand, or appearing not to understand. This to me reads as someone looking for a fight, for any reason they can point to as an excuse. "I could not understand x so, destroyed x."

You seem to use misunderstanding as bait. I dealt with that from someone whom taught me about the stereotype of 'real men'. I know that I can and am capable of writing well. You suggest misunderstanding as a means to goad and prod. Sorry, the one whom taught me was far better, or worse than you ever could be. Using such a tactic to imply inferiority and bolster yourself is unbecoming, if you are using it. Makes you look like a big blank wall to me.

I also know, at times I can be and am capable of being as dense as silt. Sometimes finding an appropriate means of expressing something is difficult for me. I do the best I can. I hope for the best in reception. We are not all uniform robots either, meaning at times some of us might relax and be informal. We are amongst friends whom understand here. Oh, that's right, you don't understand ... so you say. When something is expressed as clear as day, how can it be not understood?

I did not mean to seem to be 'blowing you off' regarding some common grounds. It is one aspect of living, being a person. It does not rule my life. I am not a fanatic over that, nor stark raving mad due to being consumed by it. Many have seen what they believe are spirits. I am not going to say I believe, or disbelieve wholly. Even having that experience does not infer belief in any form of deity. And I will not get bogged down into debate of religion, which is I sense where further discussion of that common ground would lead. We can agree to disagree, and I'm trying to politely do that. It's called diplomacy, I think.

I would sit and have a mixed drink with you. Rum and Coke is nice, or even just rum, once in a great while. It would probably be a rather quiet and uneventful evening. Alcoholism runs in mt family's blood. Does not mean I cannot drink responsibly on occasion. Have a fifth of rum here between two bottles, will probably last two or three years. <sarcasm>I'm really carrying on the family tradition. I'm a huge alcoholic.</sarcasm> Again, something else which does not control my life. It's called discipline, a will to persist I believe.

In case I'm not clear, those card carrying 'real men', they rape their wives and beat their children telling them they will never be anything. I was never his, my teacher's that is. I was never my father's either. I grew up around five or six, had to be my own father. Those 'real men' are either abusers or quitters, choosing to run off and neglect responsibility. Your appeal to that via suggesting to 'man up' was repugnant at best. Sorry, I'm not 'that' man but a different one. Stop equating me to 'those real men'. It would be too easy for me to follow their footsteps, I choose making my own path which is more difficult. It's called being mature, or so I'm told.

This is called me apologizing. Sometimes the best of friends can be the harshest critics. It might even serve a purpose. I have expressed things to you which I probably should have expressed to someone else. I could not while he lived, and would not with the other someone else. The one would have taken the vulnerability put on the block and butchered it. The other didn't care enough to notice, wanted to play daddy to a grown man. Both were <sarcasm> fine examples of card carrying real men.</sarcasm> Both were walls to me. Stepped around them using something called forgiveness. That's said to be having grace, I think.


Ok, right off the bat, Void, I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from. In the first paragraph, where you say. "This reads to me like someone looking for a fight." Are you referring to my last post to which you responded? If so, you are seriously paranoid and delusional. I suppose then my comment " This kind of line makes you uniquely amusing...even endearing" and the smilie face at the end are part of a ruse? If that is your reasoning, then this is an absolute exercise in futility. I recently came to a point where I felt weary of trying to understand and get along with you and resolved to just not communicating with you any longer, but you drew me out and I felt compelled to respond. I'm sorry if my response hurt your feelings, but I saw that particular post as just plain silliness and a dodge to a simple question. I told you before,I'm a straight shooter, I tend to be very direct with people and at times,I don't mince words.I can't help it if you can't handle " a spade being called a spade." Also very distorted on your part is how you misinterpreted my reference to the expression, Man-Up. My concept of a real man is so far removed from what you have railed against here and your allegation that I have "equated" you with them is just more paranoid defensiveness. In the last paragraph you say you're apologizing. I am too. I'm tired of striving with you. On a lighter note, I can relate to you again. When I was in my 20's and married, my father-in-law was an enthusiastic Rum&Coke drinker and it just so happened I was working for Coca Cola at the time. It kind of helped to put me on his good side. I kept him well supplied. I even became a Rum&Coke drinker for awhile. Male bonding.:cool: It is a very enjoyable drink. Have a nice week-end, Void.

[pepperjack]

" Card carrying real men." Seems like a very appropriate & timely comment given the developments during the last 24 hrs. In other words, the Jerry Sanduskys of the world, football coach ( one of the manliest of sports ), humanitarian, ( The 2nd Mile charity ), family man, regular church attendee, pillar in the community, a man's man. I gotcha, Void.:thumbu:

[elian]

I've already posted my thoughts about Sandusky in another thread. The chaos in this world is a catalyst to keep people learning and changing. Whether you want to cling to the rock, paddle on driftwood or be a leaf on the wind it is your choice to make.

Some of us have wounds that feel as though they run very deep. Grace does indeed heal, and grace can be found in many things..

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/47146.Albert_Schweitzer

[void()]

Ok, right off the bat, Void, I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from. In the first paragraph, where you say. "This reads to me like someone looking for a fight." Are you referring to my last post to which you responded? If so, you are seriously paranoid and delusional.

Actually I was referring to our overall interaction, not one portion in particular. You just seem to draw out 'misunderstanding' as an excuse. This can then be used as a straw man, "well void asks for it being so confusing."

And I admit sometimes I am off in a different world. Finding ways to express things is sometimes difficult for me. First because I own up to being something of a dumb old country boy, ignorant at times. Second because I also tend to look at various different aspects, try walking in another person's shoes, consider how it all comes to bear. Third, words are variables to me. You could say hat and mean a garment for your head, I read it and think about knights, astronauts, various ways to murder using a hat, why sardines taste good wearing hat. My mind is freaky like that, sorry.





In other words, the Jerry Sanduskys of the world, football coach ( one of the manliest of sports ), humanitarian, ( The 2nd Mile charity ), family man, regular church attendee, pillar in the community, a man's man. I gotcha, Void.:thumbu:


Quite similar to that stereotype, yes. Fortunately, my step-father never bothered me sexually. Since his death privately we have considered that he may have been very closeted homosexual. If so it may offer some justification. or rather understanding why I would get the shit beaten out of me. He sensed something different in me, taught me to take care of myself. "The world will eat him up, I need to make him tough." It does not condone nor excuse the abuse he visited us but would at least offer a chance of understanding.

And yeah, I'm not that kind of man by any means.



I can't help it if you can't handle " a spade being called a spade." Also very distorted on your part is how you misinterpreted my reference to the expression, Man-Up.


Suppose I call you a pussy and wimp for having a hangnail, complaining about it? You would likely respond defensively. My point being that I know I have dealt with and struggled through worse than a hang nail. I also know that pain can culminate after going hard for a long while, ignoring it.

Things catch up with a person and start making them realize their presence. As recent as five years ago, I could go out and do the mowing here, up hills that are 70-80 degree inclines, mow all day and not blink. Within the past year, it's clear my body no longer willingly desires cooperating. My blood pressure spikes, muscles start spasms, nerves start making joints lock up. The next day I'm lucky to get out of bed.

If i could keep going like I was seventeen, I would. I would love too and mentally I am still gung ho to do it. The body has just started disagreeing, it happens, called growing older. I rue the day I began testosterone treatments. I think it triggered aging quicker than mutated body could handle. Went through puberty in three days really, instead of the normal two or three months. Prior to the treatment, i was 20 and my body was 10. And no, not asking pity, merely as you pointing at a spade and calling it a spade.

Life happens. Yes, we each have so much we can control. I can gladly accept a fair amount of responsibility, as far as things I could control. Beyond that are those things which we cannot control. Sorry, I won't take responsibility for those. For example, I could not choose my parents, did not choose Kalman's Syndrome, did not choose being abused. All of this culminated to here and now. And in that I realize inability. Such a realization is frustrating too. I loathe asking for help. My PawPaw and Pap were/are old hard core workhorses from the late 20's and 30's, don't think for an instant they didn't instill a strong work ethic in me.

I feel shame to ask for help. Family has been very understanding, and has also started pointing my slipping up. If family doesn't know a person then I guess no one does. My wife got mad at me for losing a job. "Work, no excuses!" I went back to work, tried very hard to manage, did as good as I could. It was not enough. She says she forgets telling me that. I remember it quite clearly and was as mad at myself if not more so than her when she said it. If what you're doing isn't working, you try something else. I did, other work, it still wasn't panning out. Now, I can only ask for help.

Sorry, I'm not gaming the system. That does not even enter into how I believe, or think. I do not abuse or take advantage. Again, not that type of 'real man'. So, yes, I responded defensively to you 'calling a spade a spade', because I'm not what you suggest. Believe in honor?

[pepperjack]

I've already posted my thoughts about Sandusky in another thread. The chaos in this world is a catalyst to keep people learning and changing. Whether you want to cling to the rock, paddle on driftwood or be a leaf on the wind it is your choice to make.

Some of us have wounds that feel as though they run very deep. Grace does indeed heal, and grace can be found in many things..

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/47146.Albert_Schweitzer

I enjoy David Yount occasionally in my Saturday paper. He refers to his column as ' Amazing Grace. Today's contribution was, " The demands of love aren't easy." He writes that " Jesus made a fool of himself for love. He was love's victim, literally killed for caring." Yes, Jesus really raised the bar for us human beings concerning how to treat one another. Like He said, " The way is straight and narrow; many will seek to enter, but few will find it."

[pepperjack]

Actually I was referring to our overall interaction, not one portion in particular. You just seem to draw out 'misunderstanding' as an excuse. This can then be used as a straw man, "well void asks for it being so confusing."

And I admit sometimes I am off in a different world. Finding ways to express things is sometimes difficult for me. First because I own up to being something of a dumb old country boy, ignorant at times. Second because I also tend to look at various different aspects, try walking in another person's shoes, consider how it all comes to bear. Third, words are variables to me. You could say hat and mean a garment for your head, I read it and think about knights, astronauts, various ways to murder using a hat, why sardines taste good wearing hat. My mind is freaky like that, sorry.





Quite similar to that stereotype, yes. Fortunately, my step-father never bothered me sexually. Since his death privately we have considered that he may have been very closeted homosexual. If so it may offer some justification. or rather understanding why I would get the shit beaten out of me. He sensed something different in me, taught me to take care of myself. "The world will eat him up, I need to make him tough." It does not condone nor excuse the abuse he visited us but would at least offer a chance of understanding.

And yeah, I'm not that kind of man by any means.



Suppose I call you a pussy and wimp for having a hangnail, complaining about it? You would likely respond defensively. My point being that I know I have dealt with and struggled through worse than a hang nail. I also know that pain can culminate after going hard for a long while, ignoring it.

Things catch up with a person and start making them realize their presence. As recent as five years ago, I could go out and do the mowing here, up hills that are 70-80 degree inclines, mow all day and not blink. Within the past year, it's clear my body no longer willingly desires cooperating. My blood pressure spikes, muscles start spasms, nerves start making joints lock up. The next day I'm lucky to get out of bed.

If i could keep going like I was seventeen, I would. I would love too and mentally I am still gung ho to do it. The body has just started disagreeing, it happens, called growing older. I rue the day I began testosterone treatments. I think it triggered aging quicker than mutated body could handle. Went through puberty in three days really, instead of the normal two or three months. Prior to the treatment, i was 20 and my body was 10. And no, not asking pity, merely as you pointing at a spade and calling it a spade.

Life happens. Yes, we each have so much we can control. I can gladly accept a fair amount of responsibility, as far as things I could control. Beyond that are those things which we cannot control. Sorry, I won't take responsibility for those. For example, I could not choose my parents, did not choose Kalman's Syndrome, did not choose being abused. All of this culminated to here and now. And in that I realize inability. Such a realization is frustrating too. I loathe asking for help. My PawPaw and Pap were/are old hard core workhorses from the late 20's and 30's, don't think for an instant they didn't instill a strong work ethic in me.

I feel shame to ask for help. Family has been very understanding, and has also started pointing my slipping up. If family doesn't know a person then I guess no one does. My wife got mad at me for losing a job. "Work, no excuses!" I went back to work, tried very hard to manage, did as good as I could. It was not enough. She says she forgets telling me that. I remember it quite clearly and was as mad at myself if not more so than her when she said it. If what you're doing isn't working, you try something else. I did, other work, it still wasn't panning out. Now, I can only ask for help.

Sorry, I'm not gaming the system. That does not even enter into how I believe, or think. I do not abuse or take advantage. Again, not that type of 'real man'. So, yes, I responded defensively to you 'calling a spade a spade', because I'm not what you suggest. Believe in honor?


I have two neighbors dealing with the disability issue. One is actually receiving it for a supposedly bad back. I say supposedly because I've seen him often, working in his yard, even cutting large tree limbs and loading them onto his truck without a bit of trouble. The other neighbor is also claiming a bad back and it appears to me that it might be ( not entirely convinced ) legit, but his claim keeps getting denied. Plus, I've had to deal with too many deadbeats on the job and their lame excuses justifying their just plain laziness and expecting to get by on the efforts of others. Finally, the recently discovered statistic of the 72% fraudulent claims was the final clincher for me. So, within the context of the aforementioned experiences, I cynically assumed you to be in that majority. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not, in honor. I've been unemployed often enough to know how difficult & depressing it is to deal with. Plus, I'm aware that you live in a part of the country that historically, has endured much poverty. I used to contribute to a charity which was providing aid to the desperately poor of Appalachia. In many parts of my state, we're fortunate to have an unemployment rate lower than the national average. Sometimes I get a little carried away with my 'tough love' mindset. If you're seeking help as you say, I hope you find it. Contrary to popular belief " real men DO stop and ask for directions.":cool:

[DuckiesDarling]

I'm sitting here reading some of the posts and wondering what the fuck it has to do with biphobia. Pepper, whether or not Void is disabled is not up to you or to any member of this forum to say whether it's a real claim or a fake claim. I don't care what 72% of the claims are, that still leaves 28% that are 100% valid. I'm on disability, I worked most of my adult life until I literally could not find a job anymore that I could perform so I went for disability. I just got out of a hospital stay where I damned near died due to my lung problem so I guess that would put me in your precious 28%. I hope that Void does get the help he needs, are there people who fudge the system? Hell, yeah. But in every system in any country due to any reason someone will fudge cause they can. That, unfortunately, is human nature. But the snap judgements that appear on this site are really beginning to bother me. No one here really knows someone else. You can't know what they are dealing with until you walk a mile in their shoes. What gets posted is a very small snapshot of life in the moment and even taking in every single post someone made on this site you still don't know the person.

Now as to the OP, I don't wonder what biphobia is or what it looks like, I see it every day on THIS SITE. How people are told they aren't bisexual if they aren't actually having sex or that they aren't bisexual if they are happy being in a monogamous relationship. It has to stop. At the end of the day the only people who know for sure who they are attracted to are the ones they face in the mirror. Not every discussion on this planet has to include a discussion about bisexuality, to say that anything doesn't include bi's is biphobic is ridiculous. Too often people want to be different while screaming they aren't different.. contradictory much? I think any recognition for alternate sexualities advances the cause of the entire LGBT. But you can't hold up 100 years of history and say it's biphobic cause they didn't specifically say Alexander The Great was bisexual just that he enjoyed sex with men and women. Alexander may have been bisexual or he may have just been sexual and didn't care who he fucked as long as he fucked which would make him PANSEXUAL not bi.. .but I guess that's bierasure too, eh :P

[pepperjack]

I'm sitting here reading some of the posts and wondering what the fuck it has to do with biphobia. Pepper, whether or not Void is disabled is not up to you or to any member of this forum to say whether it's a real claim or a fake claim. I don't care what 72% of the claims are, that still leaves 28% that are 100% valid. I'm on disability, I worked most of my adult life until I literally could not find a job anymore that I could perform so I went for disability. I just got out of a hospital stay where I damned near died due to my lung problem so I guess that would put me in your precious 28%. I hope that Void does get the help he needs, are there people who fudge the system? Hell, yeah. But in every system in any country due to any reason someone will fudge cause they can. That, unfortunately, is human nature. But the snap judgements that appear on this site are really beginning to bother me. No one here really knows someone else. You can't know what they are dealing with until you walk a mile in their shoes. What gets posted is a very small snapshot of life in the moment and even taking in every single post someone made on this site you still don't know the person.

Now as to the OP, I don't wonder what biphobia is or what it looks like, I see it every day on THIS SITE. How people are told they aren't bisexual if they aren't actually having sex or that they aren't bisexual if they are happy being in a monogamous relationship. It has to stop. At the end of the day the only people who know for sure who they are attracted to are the ones they face in the mirror. Not every discussion on this planet has to include a discussion about bisexuality, to say that anything doesn't include bi's is biphobic is ridiculous. Too often people want to be different while screaming they aren't different.. contradictory much? I think any recognition for alternate sexualities advances the cause of the entire LGBT. But you can't hold up 100 years of history and say it's biphobic cause they didn't specifically say Alexander The Great was bisexual just that he enjoyed sex with men and women. Alexander may have been bisexual or he may have just been sexual and didn't care who he fucked as long as he fucked which would make him PANSEXUAL not bi.. .but I guess that's bierasure too, eh :P


I'll be the first to agree that Void and I really strayed from the original topic. It just kind of evolved that way as threads often do. I guess you missed the part where I described the context of experiences that shaped my opinion and I'm now giving him the benefit of the doubt. And I don't know why you're becoming so indignant all of a sudden when the exchange between Void and I really doesn't concern you and we're trying to amicably work out our differences. It's like you're trying to resurrect a conflict that wants to die out.

[darkeyes]

I'll be the first to agree that Void and I really strayed from the original topic. It just kind of evolved that way as threads often do. I guess you missed the part where I described the context of experiences that shaped my opinion and I'm now giving him the benefit of the doubt. And I don't know why you're becoming so indignant all of a sudden when the exchange between Void and I really doesn't concern you and we're trying to amicably work out our differences. It's like you're trying to resurrect a conflict that wants to die out.
Pepper hun.. if it's posted in a thread it concerns ne who think it concerns them.. ur personal biz becomes every1's and fair game for comment upon.. personally it doesn't worry me that u strayed from the thread and cud c it was a personal issue tween the 2 ofya... cud if I had wished commented cos u and I are a mill miles apart on the issue of disability methinks (like on a few other issues but still likeya neway ya ole duffer *laffs*) but didn't cos it has nowt 2 do wiv thread and is ur own affair 2 sort out.. best do it privately huh? :)

[DuckiesDarling]

Pepper, I've been becoming indignant for quite awhile on here anytime one member tries to tell another what they are feeling, going through or attracted to. The judgements need to stop, the help, the advice, the support need to continue. Big difference, don't you see? In the one place where people come to find they aren't alone in this world, we should not be handing a checklist at the door asking intimate questions when the only person who needs to identify as bisexual is the person themselves.

[pepperjack]

Pepper, I've been becoming indignant for quite awhile on here anytime one member tries to tell another what they are feeling, going through or attracted to. The judgements need to stop, the help, the advice, the support need to continue. Big difference, don't you see? In the one place where people come to find they aren't alone in this world, we should not be handing a checklist at the door asking intimate questions when the only person who needs to identify as bisexual is the person themselves.

Fair enough; but alas, forming opinions and eventually passing judgment is unfortunately also an inescapable part of human nature. That's why this forum keeps accelerating forward. We bang up against each other here, rub off, and sometimes wind up being polished a little smoother in the aftermath.

[pepperjack]

Pepper hun.. if it's posted in a thread it concerns ne who think it concerns them.. ur personal biz becomes every1's and fair game for comment upon.. personally it doesn't worry me that u strayed from the thread and cud c it was a personal issue tween the 2 ofya... cud if I had wished commented cos u and I are a mill miles apart on the issue of disability methinks (like on a few other issues but still likeya neway ya ole duffer *laffs*) but didn't cos it has nowt 2 do wiv thread and is ur own affair 2 sort out.. best do it privately huh? :)

I know....once it's posted, it's on the net permanently. Can't help but feel there's a subtle hypocrisy going on here. It's as if those who have been following this thread & have been secretly entertained by the content Void & I have provided, are now taking a self-righteous stance and basically saying, " Ok, you two....get a room, settle it there.":shades: I'm just being "ornery" again Dark; the word means a playful, barbed sense of humor.:smilies15

[tenni]

"Now as to the OP, I don't wonder what biphobia is or what it looks like, I see it every day on THIS SITE. How people are told they aren't bisexual if they aren't actually having sex or that they aren't bisexual if they are happy being in a monogamous relationship."

This seems not to be like anything that I have read on this site over the past six years but I may be wrong.

Have people written biphobic comments on this site?
Yes, I would agree that they have which is slightly different from the above statement.

2/ You are not bisexual unless you are having sex?
This is an interesting statement that I don't think that I read here before exactly like this. It is up for discussion as how much you are a happy bisexual imo. In other words, how you chose to live as a bisexual is unclear and no one way is best. Some (bisexuals and gays) state that all bisexuals should be publicly activist by declaring their sexuality..now that is different that the point though because proving you're bisexual in a sexual way publicly is frowned on....lol (man on one side of you and a woman on the other side all being sexually intimate)(partially kid'n).

If a person is attracted sexually to the same sex and the opposite sex, most would agree that the person is bisexual. The issue or an emotional attraction is generally not considered essential by most bisexuals but one person has claimed emotional attraction to both genders but not sexual attraction. (exceptionalities are just that)

If a person represses their sexual attraction to the same gender and does not act upon their attraction, there may be many observations made. Many posters have written about regretting denying their bisexuality and not acting on their sexual attraction to the same sex.(acting on opposite gender attraction is much more acceptable without stigma). They felt so much more fulfilled once they did become sexually active with the same gender. They were happier. So, you may be a bisexual but not a happy one if you do not fulfill your sexual desires. Others are happy having sex with just opposite genders.

3/ You are not bisexual if you are happy being in a monogamous relationship.
This statement again is something that I have not read on this site. It seems like an interpretation of what may have been posted? As a practioner of casual sex, I have felt more hostility towards my choice from those who speak about bisexuals being capable of being in a monogamous relationship. Of course, bisexuals may be completely happy in a monogamous relationship but many, many are not. Many need sexual gratification from both genders to be happy. Both positions are valid and one should not cancel out the other.

I am uncertain if point 3 is biphobic. Stating that all bisexuals are promiscuous and spread disease is biphobic though imo. Stating that women should not have sex with all bisexual men to avoid AIDS is biphobic imo. Stating that most bisexuals are in monogamous relationships and happy is questionable. Stating that bisexuals in monogamous relationships are not happy is also questionable BUT some bisexuals are not happy in monogamous relationships and that has been stated frequently on this site.

Such beliefs that bisexuals are really mostly monogamous is prejudicial towards bisexuals who wish multi partners imo and I have read a frequent poster make such a statement on this site. Bisexuals are happy in a variety of lifestyles from monogamous to poly to casual sex with both genders is perhaps closer to a reality. Are more bisexuals monogamous and happy than not? I don't know but suspect that a lot of bisexuals are happy in monogamous relationships. Whether it is the majority one way or the other, I have no idea but suspect that bisexuals are not completely fulfilled happy in monogamous relationships. Some bisexuals may be serial monogamists whose partners may change from one gender to the other is also another possibility(Anne Heeist? married a man then divorced to then be a partner of Ellen Degeneres and then married a man again) That however is just my opinion and I may change it next week..lol

[DuckiesDarling]

"Now as to the OP, I don't wonder what biphobia is or what it looks like, I see it every day on THIS SITE. How people are told they aren't bisexual if they aren't actually having sex or that they aren't bisexual if they are happy being in a monogamous relationship."

This seems not to be like anything that I have read on this site over the past six years but I may be wrong.

Have people written biphobic comments on this site?
Yes, I would agree that they have which is slightly different from the above statement.

2/ You are not bisexual unless you are having sex?
This is an interesting statement that I don't think that I read here before exactly like this. It is up for discussion as how much you are a happy bisexual imo. In other words, how you chose to live as a bisexual is unclear and no one way is best. Some (bisexuals and gays) state that all bisexuals should be publicly activist by declaring their sexuality..now that is different that the point though because proving you're bisexual in a sexual way publicly is frowned on....lol (man on one side of you and a woman on the other side all being sexually intimate)(partially kid'n).

If a person is attracted sexually to the same sex and the opposite sex, most would agree that the person is bisexual. The issue or an emotional attraction is generally not considered essential by most bisexuals but one person has claimed emotional attraction to both genders but not sexual attraction. (exceptionalities are just that)

If a person represses their sexual attraction to the same gender and does not act upon their attraction, there may be many observations made. Many posters have written about regretting denying their bisexuality and not acting on their sexual attraction to the same sex.(acting on opposite gender attraction is much more acceptable without stigma). They felt so much more fulfilled once they did become sexually active with the same gender. They were happier. So, you may be a bisexual but not a happy one if you do not fulfill your sexual desires. Others are happy having sex with just opposite genders.

3/ You are not bisexual if you are happy being in a monogamous relationship.
This statement again is something that I have not read on this site. It seems like an interpretation of what may have been posted? As a practioner of casual sex, I have felt more hostility towards my choice from those who speak about bisexuals being capable of being in a monogamous relationship. Of course, bisexuals may be completely happy in a monogamous relationship but many, many are not. Many need sexual gratification from both genders to be happy. Both positions are valid and one should not cancel out the other.

I am uncertain if point 3 is biphobic. Stating that all bisexuals are promiscuous and spread disease is biphobic though imo. Stating that women should not have sex with all bisexual men to avoid AIDS is biphobic imo. Stating that most bisexuals are in monogamous relationships and happy is questionable. Stating that bisexuals in monogamous relationships are not happy is also questionable BUT some bisexuals are not happy in monogamous relationships and that has been stated frequently on this site.

Such beliefs that bisexuals are really mostly monogamous is prejudicial towards bisexuals who wish multi partners imo and I have read a frequent poster make such a statement on this site. Bisexuals are happy in a variety of lifestyles from monogamous to poly to casual sex with both genders is perhaps closer to a reality. Are more bisexuals monogamous and happy than not? I don't know but suspect that a lot of bisexuals are happy in monogamous relationships. Whether it is the majority one way or the other, I have no idea but suspect that bisexuals are not completely fulfilled happy in monogamous relationships. Some bisexuals may be serial monogamists whose partners may change from one gender to the other is also another possibility(Anne Heeist? married a man then divorced to then be a partner of Ellen Degeneres and then married a man again) That however is just my opinion and I may change it next week..lol

Okay who are you and what have you done with Tenni? You are the one who over the last few years have completely slammed those who are happy in monogamous relationships and who has pretty much insisted if someone wasn't out actively having sex they couldn't call themselves bisexual. That is in a lot of your responses on this site over the past years, Tenni. I'm glad you seem to have finally understood that life is up to the individual themselves to live but to try to erase history is not a good thing, the fact you have grown past the initial prejudices is amazing but please do not treat the rest of us as stupid who do remember the many allegations of "forced" monogamy and other things. I'm willing to forget but not if you keep insisting you never did something...cause it's right there in black and white in past posts...

[darkeyes]

"Now as to the OP, I don't wonder what biphobia is or what it looks like, I see it every day on THIS SITE. How people are told they aren't bisexual if they aren't actually having sex or that they aren't bisexual if they are happy being in a monogamous relationship."

This seems not to be like anything that I have read on this site over the past six years but I may be wrong.

Have people written biphobic comments on this site?
Yes, I would agree that they have which is slightly different from the above statement.

2/ You are not bisexual unless you are having sex?
This is an interesting statement that I don't think that I read here before exactly like this except that for it to be true, it presumably would refer to sex with people of both genders.. this may or may not have been said specifically but inferred, I am unable to remember but probably it was...

3/ You are not bisexual if you are happy being in a monogamous relationship.
This statement again is something that I have not read on this site. It seems like an interpretation of what may have been posted? ....

I am uncertain if point 3 is biphobic. Stating that all bisexuals are promiscuous and spread disease is biphobic though imo. Stating that women should not have sex with all bisexual men to avoid AIDS is biphobic imo. Stating that most bisexuals are in monogamous relationships and happy is questionable. Stating that bisexuals in monogamous relationships are not happy is also questionable BUT some bisexuals are not happy in monogamous relationships and that has been stated frequently on this site.

Actually, tenni, I have read members claim point 2 on site.. several times. I couldn't tell u who said or when, but it is some years ago the last time I remember it being stated.. I haven't read it for a long time now and refuse point blank to wade through thousands of threads and posts to find out who and just what was said.. but it was said... Whether Darlin' darlin' is misunderstanding something someone said recently or remembers this I have no idea, but I can't recall anyone doing so in recent times...

In respect of point 3, in a sense that statement attaches itself to point 2 since if monogamous, irrespective of gender you are not not having sex with people of both genders so the same applies. I don't however remember the particular claim being made of monogamous people at any time.....It is a point of contention but not born of biphobia and, like point 2, not any kind of phobia.. we have recently had the argument about women who avoid sex with bisexual men and I have no wish to reopen that argument... u know my views on that.

[tenni]

"Okay who are you and what have you done with Tenni? You are the one who over the last few years have completely slammed those who are happy in monogamous relationships and who has pretty much insisted if someone wasn't out actively having sex they couldn't call themselves bisexual. That is in a lot of your responses on this site over the past years, Tenni. I'm glad you seem to have finally understood that life is up to the individual themselves to live but to try to erase history is not a good thing, the fact you have grown past the initial prejudices is amazing but please do not treat the rest of us as stupid who do remember the many allegations of "forced" monogamy and other things. I'm willing to forget but not if you keep insisting you never did something...cause it's right there in black and white in past posts..."

Well, it is still me...lol

I do believe in what I wrote which is different from how you have interpreted what I have written in the past. I do believe that someone who says that they are bisexual but does not act upon their sexual needs is unfortunate and sad. What I read and recall several years ago was a woman who posted to a great extent on this site about matters unconnected to bisexuality. She claimed to be a bisexual but had not acted on her attraction and had no desire to do so. This is suspect imo ..not as to whether she is or is not bisexual but wtf was she doing here? It seemed to meet a need for her to post here that had nothing to do with the intent of the site.

I also have difficulty with someone stating that they are bisexual and then condemning those who do not live up to their own moral (hetero) principles. Bisexuals who are in monogamous relationships who bitch about the belief that bisexuals are not capable of monogamy. It is not that bisexuals may not be monogamous but denying that some bisexuals do not live monogamous lifestyles and their support for such bisexuals seemed to be weak. They seemed so hurt by this biphobic belief that they were not seen as monogamous. There is however a reality that biseuxals are not monogamist.

In the end, it doesn't matter whether a bisexual is monogamous or not. I just don't believe that it is in the bisexual's best interest to try to force themselves to live hetero monogamous lives. So many live in frustration and denial of their real needs. Those bisexuals who are sexual beings should accept the diversity of bisexual lifestyles. The belief that bisexuals are all disease carrying promiscuous beings (from another planet ...lol) is a biphobic belief. The belief that bisexuals are all happy monogamist is even further from the reality. There is nothing wrong with being non monogamous. It suits many bisexuals.

[tenni]

Actually, tenni, I have read members claim point 2 on site.. several times. I couldn't tell u who said or when, but it is some years ago the last time I remember it being stated.. I haven't read it for a long time now and refuse point blank to wade through thousands of threads and posts to find out who and just what was said.. but it was said... Whether Darlin' darlin' is misunderstanding something someone said recently or remembers this I have no idea, but I can't recall anyone doing so in recent times...

In respect of point 3, in a sense that statement attaches itself to point 2 since if monogamous, irrespective of gender you are not not having sex with people of both genders so the same applies. I don't however remember the particular claim being made of monogamous people at any time.....It is a point of contention but not born of biphobia and, like point 2, not any kind of phobia.. we have recently had the argument about women who avoid sex with bisexual men and I have no wish to reopen that argument... u know my views on that.


Point 3 is connected to point 2? Point 2 refers to having sex and that is it. I assume that it means not having sex with same gender but I may be wrong. If a bisexual is monogamous, many have posted how unhappy they are being so. How then is it connected to point 2? Bisexuals want sex with same gender and opposite gender but in a variety of ways. Lots of bimen post how frustrated they are that their wives will not give permission to have this sex. oh..well who really cares anyway...lol

Yes, a woman who refuses to have sex with all bimen regardless of testing, statements etc. is biphobic.

[darkeyes]

Sometimes, tenni, monogamous relationships are not simply monogamous, but celibate.. but since the claim is that unless having sex, assuming it means sex with both genders because if it doesn't then the claim is nonsensical, you cannot be bisexual, and as in a monogamous relationship sex if it occurs is either heterosexual or homosexual sex. In both claims the assumption is that this does not occur..and therefore the two points are connected..

I'm not agreeing with the claims tenni, u daft bugger, just telling u there is a connection...

[elian]

Hmm, I'll stretch my definition even further and say that bisexuals have the DESIRE or the thought of finding more than one gender attractive - whether they are having sex or not.

I'm sure there are 52 other words people have made up to describe that specific condition but I think it's simpler just to stretch the definition of the word bisexual just a little and there you have it.

[tenni]

Sometimes, tenni, monogamous relationships are not simply monogamous, but celibate.. but since the claim is that unless having sex, assuming it means sex with both genders because if it doesn't then the claim is nonsensical, you cannot be bisexual, and as in a monogamous relationship sex if it occurs is either heterosexual or homosexual sex. In both claims the assumption is that this does not occur..and therefore the two points are connected..

I'm not agreeing with the claims tenni, u daft bugger, just telling u there is a connection...

Ok.
I am having difficulty thinking through what you are attempting to state but ok.

I am reminded constantly about men who find themselves in forced celebate marriages. I met a guy just the other night who was looking for sex and friendship with a man. He has not had sex with his wife for nearly ten years. She does not ask for sex and nor does he. He said that he is bisexual. I suspect that he is gay but I have no sound proof just a gut feeling(bad gaydar /bidar so I'm probably wrong). To call such a marriage mongamous seems silly. To call such a marriage celebate makes more sense. To say that he is happy would be wrong or he would not be seeking sex and friendship with a man. To say that he accepts his lot by seeking sex with men and staying married is the reality. None of this has much to do with the thread topic of biphobia though.

Elain
Is not the word "bisexual" just a word to umbrella what is more than not a lot of yet to be defined sexualities? It is like the word "primate". ;)

[void()]

They seemed so hurt by this biphobic belief that they were not seen as monogamous. There is however a reality that biseuxals are not monogamist.

In the end, it doesn't matter whether a bisexual is monogamous or not. I just don't believe that it is in the bisexual's best interest to try to force themselves to live hetero monogamous lives. So many live in frustration and denial of their real needs. Those bisexuals who are sexual beings should accept the diversity of bisexual lifestyles.

Apologies if I ever seemed to deny there were non-monogamist bisexuals. Never intended to suggest that. Also never intended to say non-monogamist/s are in any way bad, or negative. My point has always been that monogamy to a degree works for me.

What I get upset over are people, on an individual basis whom do cheat and openly admit it here. This has nothing to do with their sexuality but rather with them being imho, jerks. I think love should be all accepting, to that end love through trust and communication should help resolve issues. If you cannot love enough to trust a partner or be trusted by one, why bother with a relationship at all?

I understand where you're coming from though. One can remain single and enjoy having lots of flings, or one offs with whomever. That may be fine for some too, not denying that. It just doesn't work for me. I like being there for those I love, them being there for me. For some it goes beyond mere physical sex, guess I fit in that some.

Also, wow, thank you for finally helping me understanding more fully what you were meaning.

[tenni]

"It just doesn't work for me. I like being there for those I love, them being there for me. For some it goes beyond mere physical sex, guess I fit in that some."

Oh, voidie I so admire your relationship with you wife. I written that before. I know what I am missing and will not deny that I also want that too. I'm just a greedy bisexual...lol

[darkeyes]

Ok.
I am having difficulty thinking through what you are attempting to state but ok.


Think u should have stayed over this side of the pond an' not bothered goin' back...*laffs*