US and Universal Healthcare

[darkeyes]

In a week where I have smiled much, and good things have happened to me, not the least of which is the beginning of ver nice long summer hols, it was nice to learn of something i know is controversial and know it is much opposed in the US.. but no matter.. the Supreme court decision on Obamacare is certainly one of the nicest, and if it does not affect me personally, and imperfect as it is and if it is not the way I believe universal health care should be offered to the people of a nation, that is of no consequence.. what is of great consequence is that millions who have no health care will, and the savings in life and the improvement in the health of a nation will far outweigh any imperfections... it will be bumpy ride its implementation and its operation, but if allowed to stand by a new congress, as I fully expect it will, in a decade or so, most Americans will wonder what the fuss was about and few will wish to return to the bad old days prior to 2014... the proof of the pudding is in the eating it is said.. and universal healthcare for all is a very delicious pudding indeed..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/01/editorial-obama-healthcare-usa

[DuckiesDarling]

Actually, Fran, as it stands it is not Universal Healthcare. It was aimed to make it easier for people to get healthcare but there are still going to be companies that will pay a fine rather than provide healthcare for employees as it will be CHEAPER. There will be a tax that will be implemented on people who CAN afford but choose not to have health insurance. The proof in the pudding as you say will be who is determined to AFFORD healthcare, what other bills will they take into account that must be paid to enjoy any standard of living. You are right, it doesn't affect you, and it will never affect you, neither for better or worse. So you may have it over there but at this point it will not do a whole heck of a lot. We have a very long way to go on fixing our healthcare system but there are no penalties at the federal level for states that choose not to change the Medicaid limits and until there is a federal standard for all states to meet or lose the funding... it won't get better. But even as far in the hole as we go on healthcare we still get treated regardless of ability to pay.

[darkeyes]

Actually, Fran, as it stands it is not Universal Healthcare. It was aimed to make it easier for people to get healthcare but there are still going to be companies that will pay a fine rather than provide healthcare for employees as it will be CHEAPER. There will be a tax that will be implemented on people who CAN afford but choose not to have health insurance. The proof in the pudding as you say will be who is determined to AFFORD healthcare, what other bills will they take into account that must be paid to enjoy any standard of living. You are right, it doesn't affect you, and it will never affect you, neither for better or worse. So you may have it over there but at this point it will not do a whole heck of a lot. We have a very long way to go on fixing our healthcare system but there are no penalties at the federal level for states that choose not to change the Medicaid limits and until there is a federal standard for all states to meet or lose the funding... it won't get better. But even as far in the hole as we go on healthcare we still get treated regardless of ability to pay.
The part I have emboldened is my major quibble with what u say.. at present as I understand it, all are able to get emergency treatment but it is existing and new illnesses many of which are long term and life threatening where the US currently falls down very badly.. families totalling some 60 million people are deprived this right currently and it is that which presently stops the US having a system of universal healthcare.. and the fact that, upon insurance premiums running out, Many are abandoned in mid treatment because they are unable to afford it or they are unable to afford after care once medical treatment is complete.. even after emergency treatment the poor and others with no insurance either personally or through work have no after care and this prevents many from fully recovering..

"Obamacare" for all its faults and the fact that it is a bit piece meal and its operation is bound to be patchy.. all health services are patchy, but erradicting the problems is for Americans to sort out...to put it politely offers the opportunity for all of those people to be treated other than on a grace and favour basis (if they are lucky, or not at all.. it will save millions from personal bankruptcy and stress because of medical bills and can only be good for america and Americans.. yes it will be imperfect and it will have huge problems.. companies will cut up rough and there will be many struggles to make it work.. but however people are treated.. for the first time every US citizen will have a right to medical treatment whatever the illness, not simply for emergencies.. that I call universal health care.. not a national health service as I understand it but a national health service just the same..

There was much opposition to the creation of the NHS here too buy private companies, the medical profession and the wealthy and privileged, but if there are arguments about how it is organised and run and how its is paid for, there is no argument that it should be made available to all for emergency, long medium or short term illness irrespective of ability to pay...

[biguy71]

National health insurance is the way to go. Until we institute that, any other reforms are basically like sticking a bandaid on a bullet wound.

[darkeyes]

No argument from me on that.. :bigrin:

[HappyHedonic]

Speaking as an American, as one who works in health care, as one whos primary partner is European, I am very happy that the Affordable Care Act will be implemented. Yes, it is flawed but it is movement in the right direction. To have done nothing to change the system was costing the US economy in ways that have long term repercussions. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing or nothing different and still expecting different results.

[falcondfw]

Fran, love, you knew I would not stay quiet on this one. lol.

1. DD is right. Companies will opt to pay the fine, as will individuals, thus defeating the purpose of giving health care to "everyone".
2. If the law is so bloody fantastic, why has Congress exempted itself? Why have over 1500 exceptions been given to contributors of Obama's re-election campaign?
3. If this is a law to help people, why is it necessary to hire 16,000 IRS (Internal Revenue Service) agents to enforce it?
4. Obama promised the law would be "revenue neutral". So why does the politically neutral CBO estimate the law will now cost over 675 BILLION dollars? And the estimate keeps going up.
5. If this is a law to get people insured, why have health care Premiums gone up 27% per year since it was passed in 2009? The law has not even started yet, for the most part. It doesn't until 2013.

I could go on for days about why this is a VERY bad law. Is the US Healhcare system perfect? far from it. Is what I saw in London perfect? hell no. But at least in the US, my healthcare choices were between me and the person with the knowledge, my doctor.

I do not need the government to tell me to get healthcare when I need it. I do not need the government to tell my doctor how much healthcare I need. And I sure as hell do not need the government to FORCE me to buy a product from a private company!!! What's next? The government thinks we need to go solar so they order every homeowner to retrofit their home with at least 20 solar panels? At a cost of $10,000 per home? Seriously? When those panels are only a maximum of 14% efficient? Or the government thinks I need to eat more Broccoli. But I don't want to. So they force me to buy it by either providing a subsidy to broccoli growers, making it so much cheaper than spinach, or they tax me if I do not eat enough broccoli in a year? Guess what? With this Supreme Court ruling the government now has the power to do that. Thanks Traitor Roberts!

There are MANY reforms that could have been implemented to fix the problems. WITHOUT resorting to forcing people into a government run healthcare system. Tort reform. The power to purchase insurance across state lines. Etc. Etc. All would have lowered costs and made care more affordable (especially tort reform). We do not need the government making healthcare decisions for us. I want that between my doctor and me. No one else (ok. maybe mom should know).

Bad law. Bad Supreme Court decision. I pray to God it can be repealed after the November elections.

[darkeyes]

Fran, love, you knew I would not stay quiet on this one. lol.

1. DD is right. Companies will opt to pay the fine, as will individuals, thus defeating the purpose of giving health care to "everyone".
2. If the law is so bloody fantastic, why has Congress exempted itself? Why have over 1500 exceptions been given to contributors of Obama's re-election campaign?
3. If this is a law to help people, why is it necessary to hire 16,000 IRS (Internal Revenue Service) agents to enforce it?
4. Obama promised the law would be "revenue neutral". So why does the politically neutral CBO estimate the law will now cost over 675 BILLION dollars? And the estimate keeps going up.
5. If this is a law to get people insured, why have health care Premiums gone up 27% per year since it was passed in 2009? The law has not even started yet, for the most part. It doesn't until 2013.

I could go on for days about why this is a VERY bad law. Is the US Healhcare system perfect? far from it. Is what I saw in London perfect? hell no. But at least in the US, my healthcare choices were between me and the person with the knowledge, my doctor.

I do not need the government to tell me to get healthcare when I need it. I do not need the government to tell my doctor how much healthcare I need. And I sure as hell do not need the government to FORCE me to buy a product from a private company!!! What's next? The government thinks we need to go solar so they order every homeowner to retrofit their home with at least 20 solar panels? At a cost of $10,000 per home? Seriously? When those panels are only a maximum of 14% efficient? Or the government thinks I need to eat more Broccoli. But I don't want to. So they force me to buy it by either providing a subsidy to broccoli growers, making it so much cheaper than spinach, or they tax me if I do not eat enough broccoli in a year? Guess what? With this Supreme Court ruling the government now has the power to do that. Thanks Traitor Roberts!

There are MANY reforms that could have been implemented to fix the problems. WITHOUT resorting to forcing people into a government run healthcare system. Tort reform. The power to purchase insurance across state lines. Etc. Etc. All would have lowered costs and made care more affordable (especially tort reform). We do not need the government making healthcare decisions for us. I want that between my doctor and me. No one else (ok. maybe mom should know).

Bad law. Bad Supreme Court decision. I pray to God it can be repealed after the November elections.
I'm not saying it is a good law.. I am saying that it is a sight better than u have now...if people try and screw with it then it is up to government and the people to make sure it isn't screwed with.. i know the NHS is far from perfect and have said so.. no system of health care ever shall be perfect.. I wish.. but health care should be available to all when it is needed.. that's the intention behind what is being implemented.. that is not the state of play now..

Insurance whether by private, company or national health insurance through a tax is there to pay in case it is needed.. not if... not just for u.. but ur children wife, family and all dependents.. for all people irrespective of income.. the ability to pay. Millions in this country do not pay the national health insurance.. they can't.. but millions of them did, and will again...but most do and are glad to for it is insurance against hard times and ill health.. not when they have hard times and ill heallth.. but if.. not when their families have hard times and ill health, but in case.. few argue with it.. a few thousand rich nobs and some Tory politicians and some other miserable stingy getts who don't care about human life (except maybe their own) and are for themselves .. insurance for health like any other type of insurance is in case it is needed... and health insurance is paid by all those in work because of the altruistic attitude of the British people and because they do not believe that because u are poor.. they recognise its importance to them and the country as a whole... u should have no access to good quality health care from the day u are born, until the day u die.... the NHS has rough patches and weaknesses on that score but essentially that's how it works and overall it works well.. knowing that many are just too poor to be able to pay, and the tax system caters for that.. it means no-one is denied treatment on the basis of inability to pay.. no one need sell their house or be bankrupted because of ill health.. it means we have a society which still cares for people in some ways more than we care for money..

You're right.. it is a bad bill.. and it is a bad system.. but it is far, far better than you have now.. and if it is repealed.. the President and Congress responsible will be condemned by history unless it is repealed to put something better in its place..

[æonpax]

In a week where I have smiled much, and good things have happened to me, not the least of which is the beginning of ver nice long summer hols, it was nice to learn of something i know is controversial and know it is much opposed in the US.. but no matter.. the Supreme court decision on Obamacare is certainly one of the nicest, and if it does not affect me personally, and imperfect as it is and if it is not the way I believe universal health care should be offered to the people of a nation, that is of no consequence.. what is of great consequence is that millions who have no health care will, and the savings in life and the improvement in the health of a nation will far outweigh any imperfections... it will be bumpy ride its implementation and its operation, but if allowed to stand by a new congress, as I fully expect it will, in a decade or so, most Americans will wonder what the fuss was about and few will wish to return to the bad old days prior to 2014... the proof of the pudding is in the eating it is said.. and universal healthcare for all is a very delicious pudding indeed..http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/01/editorial-obama-healthcare-usa


The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) didn’t go anywhere near far enough as it should have. Still, something is better than nothing through. Most people don’t understand it at all, especially those who get their news from the mainstream corporate controlled propaganda outlets or from their ideological masters. Here’s a rather good explanation of what it is, click on the “Introduction” video…. http://libguides.law.ucla.edu/PPACA

As I see it, a single-payer health care system is the only way to go at this point.

If one does any research as to when and why heath care costs started spiraling out of control, one must start with Ronald Reagan and his deregulation of banking but that’s another long, sordid story.

Prior to St. Reagan, health care insurance was in the hands of only a few insurer’s, most notably; Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Federal law at the time prohibited them or any heath insurer from making over 12% profit. The costs were down because the insurers spread any profit it gained back throughout the system. This way, most any employer could afford to offer it very cheaply to an employee.

Also, most all hospitals in the US were owned and run by religious or fraternal organizations whom are not-for-profit. Any profit that was made was put into caring for the poor and indigent. There was no law that mandated it....until the corporates took over.

Another thing, there were no “clinics” per se prior to Reagan. Most all doctors had their own practice and their own offices. Now, if anyone was getting rich out of this, it was the doctors…at the time. Still, the system worked very well, until Reagan came into office.

The US cannot turn back the clock. The laws of deregulation have spread so wide as to make it impossible. The infestation or infection of the for-profit mantra has so permeated heath care that unfortunately, “single payer” is the only way to go.

Obamacare, as some call it, is hardly perfect but it’s a start.

[falcondfw]

I'm not saying it is a good law.. I am saying that it is a sight better than u have now...if people try and screw with it then it is up to government and the people to make sure it isn't screwed with.. i know the NHS is far from perfect and have said so.. no system of health care ever shall be perfect.. I wish.. but health care should be available to all when it is needed.. that's the intention behind what is being implemented.. that is not the state of play now..

Insurance whether by private, company or national health insurance through a tax is there to pay in case it is needed.. not if... not just for u.. but ur children wife, family and all dependents.. for all people irrespective of income.. the ability to pay. Millions in this country do not pay the national health insurance.. they can't.. but millions of them did, and will again...but most do and are glad to for it is insurance against hard times and ill health.. not when they have hard times and ill heallth.. but if.. not when their families have hard times and ill health, but in case.. few argue with it.. a few thousand rich nobs and some Tory politicians and some other miserable stingy getts who don't care about human life (except maybe their own) and are for themselves .. insurance for health like any other type of insurance is in case it is needed... and health insurance is paid by all those in work because of the altruistic attitude of the British people and because they do not believe that because u are poor.. they recognise its importance to them and the country as a whole... u should have no access to good quality health care from the day u are born, until the day u die.... the NHS has rough patches and weaknesses on that score but essentially that's how it works and overall it works well.. knowing that many are just too poor to be able to pay, and the tax system caters for that.. it means no-one is denied treatment on the basis of inability to pay.. no one need sell their house or be bankrupted because of ill health.. it means we have a society which still cares for people in some ways more than we care for money..

You're right.. it is a bad bill.. and it is a bad system.. but it is far, far better than you have now.. and if it is repealed.. the President and Congress responsible will be condemned by history unless it is repealed to put something better in its place..

Fran,

Have you been to the US in the past 10 years?

Have you had to go to the hospital or clinic when you were here?

EVERYONE in this country, under the current system, gets treated. EVERYONE!

Whether they can pay the bill after is another matter entirely. But that is why bankruptcy laws exist.
If you have not had to go to a doctor's office or clinic while you were here, you have no idea about the medical/insurance system, other than news reports. And honestly, those reports are so biased, you really have no idea.

Why do you thin it is that so many drug manufacturers come up with new, fantastic meds in the US? Do you hear of Indian companies doing this? NO!!!! It is because of the profit motive. Plain and simple.

The newer surgeries and treatments. Where were most of them, if not all, invented? That's right. The USA. Why do you think that happened? Simple. because, THEY HAVE A PROFIT MOTIVE!

Government control of health care leads to complacency and laziness. I saw it in London. I see it in the Philippines. Friends told me about it in Canada.

The statistics do not lie. Where do Canadians go for treatment they desperately need? That's right. The USA. Why? reasons ae too numerous to list. Talk to a Canadian.

Fran, I love you, and I totally respect you, but if you have not experienced the US healthcare system, you are only posting from a theoretical viewpoint And that does not work. We are not Europe and we never will be.

[falcondfw]

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) didn’t go anywhere near far enough as it should have. Still, something is better than nothing through. Most people don’t understand it at all, especially those who get their news from the mainstream corporate controlled propaganda outlets or from their ideological masters. Here’s a rather good explanation of what it is, click on the “Introduction” video…. http://libguides.law.ucla.edu/PPACA

As I see it, a single-payer health care system is the only way to go at this point.

If one does any research as to when and why heath care costs started spiraling out of control, one must start with Ronald Reagan and his deregulation of banking but that’s another long, sordid story.

Prior to St. Reagan, health care insurance was in the hands of only a few insurer’s, most notably; Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Federal law at the time prohibited them or any heath insurer from making over 12% profit. The costs were down because the insurers spread any profit it gained back throughout the system. This way, most any employer could afford to offer it very cheaply to an employee.

Also, most all hospitals in the US were owned and run by religious or fraternal organizations whom are not-for-profit. Any profit that was made was put into caring for the poor and indigent. There was no law that mandated it....until the corporates took over.

Another thing, there were no “clinics” per se prior to Reagan. Most all doctors had their own practice and their own offices. Now, if anyone was getting rich out of this, it was the doctors…at the time. Still, the system worked very well, until Reagan came into office.

The US cannot turn back the clock. The laws of deregulation have spread so wide as to make it impossible. The infestation or infection of the for-profit mantra has so permeated heath care that unfortunately, “single payer” is the only way to go.

Obamacare, as some call it, is hardly perfect but it’s a start.

Joan,

Everyone is entitled to their point of view.

But honestly, do us all a favor and move to Russia or the Ukraine.

Your views perfectly match that system.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

Have you been to the US in the past 10 years?

Have you had to go to the hospital or clinic when you were here?

EVERYONE in this country, under the current system, gets treated. EVERYONE!

Whether they can pay the bill after is another matter entirely. But that is why bankruptcy laws exist.
If you have not had to go to a doctor's office or clinic while you were here, you have no idea about the medical/insurance system, other than news reports. And honestly, those reports are so biased, you really have no idea.

Why do you thin it is that so many drug manufacturers come up with new, fantastic meds in the US? Do you hear of Indian companies doing this? NO!!!! It is because of the profit motive. Plain and simple.

The newer surgeries and treatments. Where were most of them, if not all, invented? That's right. The USA. Why do you think that happened? Simple. because, THEY HAVE A PROFIT MOTIVE!

Government control of health care leads to complacency and laziness. I saw it in London. I see it in the Philippines. Friends told me about it in Canada.

The statistics do not lie. Where do Canadians go for treatment they desperately need? That's right. The USA. Why? reasons ae too numerous to list. Talk to a Canadian.

Fran, I love you, and I totally respect you, but if you have not experienced the US healthcare system, you are only posting from a theoretical viewpoint And that does not work. We are not Europe and we never will be.
Everyone is entitled under Federal law to emergency treatment (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labour Act of 1986).. I have already conceded that, but emergency treatment is not all treatement... some 45 million uninsured cannot afford (or refuse to pay in some cases) other forms of treatment which we would not consider emergency.. which is most medical treatment.. some get such treatment through charities and other government aid programmes but not all, and not all qualify, and because so many are unable to afford or qualify for treatment many do without and suffer accordingly... it is untrue to claim that all Americans are treated regardless...

I don't want u to be Europe as it happens.. I just want all Americans to have access to top quality health care no matter their economic circumstances and not to have to worry about money or keeping a roof over their heads......and for that treatment whatever it happens to be to start and continue until iits end.. not an end as decided by an insurance company because premiums have run out...the change in the law will not bring down the cost of insurance premiums or make treatment and medicines any more affordable.. economies of scale ensure that such costs are kept down in countries with publicly funded national health services.. you will not have that and so if I see what is to be is progress, it is very imperfect progress and will still cost the US and its people a mint more than it need.. but for 40 odd million Americans at least it will be a great improvement on what exists now and probably quite a few tens of millions more...

[darkeyes]

Joan,

Everyone is entitled to their point of view.

But honestly, do us all a favor and move to Russia or the Ukraine.

Your views perfectly match that system.
Childish and petty Falcon, hun, and the call of all who do not want change... none of our societies are perfect and even the worst of societies has much to teach us.. because we wish to change the place we live in does not mean we wish to leave it... what it means is we wish to see it better... you may not like it, but many don't like the things you believe in.. do as u have said to me, and I think Joan at some stage, babes.. show some class and accept that there are those who don't agree with u!!!!:bigrin:;)

[jonric]

Actually, you would think that there are some things that can't qualify as emergencies, but that is just not the case. On numerous occasions, I have gone to an emergency room to find some parent with a child waiting to see a doctor for their runny nose (not an exaggeration). These people take up resources of people with real emergencies, but they know that if they go there, they have to be treated.
And don't be fooled by anyone worrying about food on the table or a roof over their head. Landlords must accept tenants with Title X (free rent) and food stamps have been replaced with debit cards.

[IndyBiFun]

I agree with Falcondfw.

This is a very bad law that goes way beyond healthcare.

Why anyone wants more federal governemtn in their life dictating what they can and cannot do is beyond. me.

The Constitution limits the size and power of the federal geovernment and this law does the opposite. Just wait and see what other monsters come out of this Pandora's box.

Europe with all of their Socialist beliefs are going flat broke before our eyes and the US decides to go down the same road.

[darkeyes]

I agree with Falcondfw.

This is a very bad law that goes way beyond healthcare.

Why anyone wants more federal governemtn in their life dictating what they can and cannot do is beyond. me.

The Constitution limits the size and power of the federal geovernment and this law does the opposite. Just wait and see what other monsters come out of this Pandora's box.

Europe with all of their Socialist beliefs are going flat broke before our eyes and the US decides to go down the same road.
I do wish u lot on other side of the pond would realise that Europe is 'bout as socialist as Roosevelt..and I mean Teddy, not Frank..

[æonpax]

I do wish u lot on other side of the pond would realise that Europe is 'bout as socialist as Roosevelt..and I mean Teddy, not Frank..

Problem here Fran is most Americans are mis or under informed about The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) or Obamacare. They get their information from biased sources (political pundits, faux news…actually any corporate news source) which is a shame. I do understand the bill itself is about a 1,000 pages and I daresay most Americans don’t have an attention span long enough to sit through a brainless TV sitcom much less any reasonable explanation of PPACA.

Here’s a good explanation and discussion on the PPACA from a news site I belong to, Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm

Also, here is a point by point outline and explination (same site) - http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vrt9x/obamacare_pointbypoint/

I have hundreds of reasons why I think the “Single payer” system is the best way to go and about equal amount of reasons why only complete idiot would trust our present, “for-profit” corporate system….leastways, without government oversight.

Take the need for this law; The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act One of the first things the corporates did when they got their filthy hands into the hospital system was to turn away people who could not pay. It’s called “patient dumping.” Mind you, these are emergencies but hey…profit are more important than people.

Now speaking of the corporates, they do NOT act in our best interest. Check this out; GlaxoSmithKline to pay $3 billion for health fraud - http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/glaxosmithkline-to-pay-3-billion-for-health-fraud-161127155.html This is just the tip of the the scam health care iceberg.

Moving right along, I keep hearing this “we have the best medical system in the world”. That’s debatable. We do have the most costly - http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/how-do-we-rate-the-quality-of-the-us-health-care-system-%E2%80%93-conclusion/ but definitely NOT quality. The New England Journal Of Medicine ranks the US 37 in overall health care performance, - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064

Fran, if you can read only one thing, read this; 50 U.S. Health Care Statistics That Will Absolutely Astonish [Make] You [Puke]. - http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/50-u-s-health-care-statistics-that-will-absolutely-astonish-you

One thing for sure, this issue is kicking up a lot of debate but little intelligent discussion.

[void()]

I think this (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57466008-503544/a-post-supreme-court-guide-to-the-health-care-law/) is relevant. This (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=guide%20to%20affordable%20care%20act&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CGMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.consumerreports.org%2Fhealth% 2Fresources%2Fpdf%2Fncqa%2Fhealth-reform.pdf&ei=dcb3T4yaC6jd6wHm1fDbBg&usg=AFQjCNFRlJlSRKsIKhwc4rRwFhY83B-VwA&cad=rja) one also. I am glad to have learned medicaid's availability scope has increased. Now, in conjunction with exchanges we may afford health insurance. I am also glad to learn the feds will have more say over treatment quality and all will receive equal treatment. Once the feds establish a standard of care, there will be fed or state hospitals, medical research facilities. This will help lower costs for everyone whilst continually raising the standard of care. It is worth an extra five to ten percent tax increase across the board for all imho.

If that makes me a socialist, go blow it out your rectum, because I don't much care. We need better than we have, deserve it actually. Greatest nation on Earth, sure, just look back into the late 1920's to 1930's, hobos, vagabonds, mentally ill were sterilized, poor too, eugenics in America. I strongly disagree with the darker aspects of eugenics, Hitler's notions for another example. A sane and reasonable approach to population control through birth control, access to abortion are okay (again mho). Better healthcare and lower costs for it, sound good too. If it means we need to think differently, then think differently. At least you'd be thinking.

[falcondfw]

Ok.
All of you advocating Universal Healthcare, Obamacare, or an eventual single payer system need a reality check.

1. Obamacare (supposedly) adds 30,000,000 currently uninsured people to the roles, But it requires many additional things to be covered for the existing as well as the new patients.

2. Obamacare CUTS, yes, I said cuts, $500,000,000,000 from Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements to doctors and hospitals.

3. Who do you think pays for the additional requirements, additional enrollees, and reduced reimbursements?

Answer = taxpayers.

However, considering employment rolls in the private sector have shrunk and there are millions of fewer TAXPAYERS to support the system, what will happen?

Answer = collapse of Obamacare, Medicare, and any single payer system, just like is happening all over Europe.

Government workers are paid from our taxes. Obamacare requires 16,000 new IRS agents (government paid), 180 new agencies (complete with government paid staff), plus the additional burden of the previously uninsured, the new requirements, etc.

If there are fewer people in the private sector to pay the required workers and taxes, WHAT THE F ARE YOU ALL THINKING????? Try and use the logical parts of your brain for a change, instead of the emotional parts.

[æonpax]

Ok.
All of you advocating Universal Healthcare, Obamacare, or an eventual single payer system need a reality check.

1. 1a) Obamacare (supposedly) adds 30,000,000 currently uninsured people to the roles, 1b) But it requires many additional things to be covered for the existing as well as the new patients.

2. 2) Obamacare CUTS, yes, I said cuts, $500,000,000,000 from Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements to doctors and hospitals.

3. 3a) Who do you think pays for the additional requirements, additional enrollees, and reduced reimbursements?
Answer = taxpayers.
3b) However, considering employment rolls in the private sector have shrunk and there are millions of fewer TAXPAYERS to support the system, what will happen?
3c) Answer = collapse of Obamacare, Medicare, and any single payer system, just like is happening all over Europe.

4a) Government workers are paid from our taxes. 4b) Obamacare requires 16,000 new IRS agents (government paid), 180 new agencies (complete with government paid staff), plus the additional burden of the previously uninsured, the new requirements, etc.

5a) If there are fewer people in the private sector to pay the required workers and taxes, WHAT THE F ARE YOU ALL THINKING????? 5b) Try and use the logical parts of your brain for a change, instead of the emotional parts.


1a) Actually, it’s over 50 million - http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2011/CPSHealthIns2011/ib.pdf - before Obamacare and without health care reform.
1b) Such as? Please cite.

2) Please cite source. I found nothing in the law or any government or academic documentation even remotely stating or implying this.

3a) Who do you think ends up paying the cost for the uninsured right now? Ultimately, the taxpayers. - http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/the-cost-of-care-for-the-uninsured-what-do-we-spend-who-pays-and-what-would-full-coverage-add-to-medical-spending.pdf
3b) You are asking for a conclusion based on hearsay and unsupported opinion.
3c) Your opinion…Do you care to support that with some facts.? As for Europe and their health care situation, I’d prefer the Europeans in our bisexual community answer that.

4a) Yes they are and that includes the US Military and all our useless politicians.
4b) I don’t think so. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/will_the_irs_need_16000_new_ag.html

5a) Unlike my friends who embrace the selfish, me-first ideology of ultraconservatism, I have not, nor will ever, abandon the basic HUMAN virtues of charity, compassion, mercy, kindness, forbearance and benevolence just to save a few dollars. I would sooner pay more for taxes than allow the corporations to continue this immoral rape of a persons health and the pain and suffering it causes.
5b) Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." - Luke 10:37

[elian]

The bottom line is that a lot of Americans were promised by government, union and private industry that they would be "taken care of" with pensions if they "just worked hard" and paid into the system. If the government and private industry would've kept their hands out of the pension jar then the system would've been doing fine - but no - they had to BORROW against the pensions and run the economy into the ground - talk about the height of stupidity. Now the government and companies are balking at the cost of having to provide healthcare for a mass of baby boomers. Everybody is greedy, everybody's got their hands out for a payment - the workers, the government, the company, the unions, big healthcare providers, medical suppliers (it's all at "no cost to you" just dial our toll free number!!) and the insurance company - the only problem is nobody has THAT amount of money set aside for it - so they all just point fingers. A few of the companies have decided the best way to deal with it is to go casters up, declare bankruptcy, discharge the debt and then rehire all new employees with very little benefits..

So we tried the "private" way and it is failed miserably.. It's time for something different. I don't think "profit" should drive the quality of care. It would be hard for me to think that an actuary calculates the probability of my spouse living and then decides whether or not she (or he) is worth spending the money so that upper management and the shareholders can get a bonus that year but I guess that's the way the free market economy works. But more than anything whatever we do I don't want to be "retired" and still having to work at a company until I'm 80 years old JUST to be able to afford the prescriptions I need to stay alive,.

There is a reason I keep saying "Forgiveness is so important" - a lot of mistakes have been made.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the free market but there are SOME things in life it shouldn't apply to.. When you treat human beings like just another market commodity strange things happen - riots, suicide, etc. Then we all go around with a dumbfounded look on our faces and say "what happened? I remember when the world used to be simple/moral." .. as if we cannot understand what is happening.

Of course you are all right - something has to give..

We need to build a) a more compassionate society that is less focused on ego/I b) "strong", educated citizens that understand the value of respect and worth for themselves and others as a part of the wider world.

[elian]

An interesting question ensues, I wonder how many pensions were paid out of revenue from the sale of illegal drugs? I mean that would be ultimate expression of the "free" market right? To take the money from those with an addiction.. This armchair conspiracy stuff is fun.. :)

Of course now that I think about it, doesn't make a lot of sense, you'd want to maximize profit as much as possible for such a high risk.

Did I mention that I have only the most venomous hate for people who profit off the misery of others?

[DuckiesDarling]

Problem here Fran is most Americans are mis or under informed about The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) or Obamacare. They get their information from biased sources (political pundits, faux news…actually any corporate news source) which is a shame. I do understand the bill itself is about a 1,000 pages and I daresay most Americans don’t have an attention span long enough to sit through a brainless TV sitcom much less any reasonable explanation of PPACA.

Here’s a good explanation and discussion on the PPACA from a news site I belong to, Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm

Also, here is a point by point outline and explination (same site) - http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vrt9x/obamacare_pointbypoint/

I have hundreds of reasons why I think the “Single payer” system is the best way to go and about equal amount of reasons why only complete idiot would trust our present, “for-profit” corporate system….leastways, without government oversight.

Take the need for this law; The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act One of the first things the corporates did when they got their filthy hands into the hospital system was to turn away people who could not pay. It’s called “patient dumping.” Mind you, these are emergencies but hey…profit are more important than people.

Now speaking of the corporates, they do NOT act in our best interest. Check this out; GlaxoSmithKline to pay $3 billion for health fraud - http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/glaxosmithkline-to-pay-3-billion-for-health-fraud-161127155.html This is just the tip of the the scam health care iceberg.

Moving right along, I keep hearing this “we have the best medical system in the world”. That’s debatable. We do have the most costly - http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/how-do-we-rate-the-quality-of-the-us-health-care-system-%E2%80%93-conclusion/ but definitely NOT quality. The New England Journal Of Medicine ranks the US 37 in overall health care performance, - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064

Fran, if you can read only one thing, read this; 50 U.S. Health Care Statistics That Will Absolutely Astonish [Make] You [Puke]. - http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/50-u-s-health-care-statistics-that-will-absolutely-astonish-you

One thing for sure, this issue is kicking up a lot of debate but little intelligent discussion.


Well the only freaking website that is needed regarding this law is the one about the law. WWW.HEALTHCARE.GOV (http://www.HEALTHCARE.GOV) a full on explanation of what is expected to happen at every stage of the way.

[DuckiesDarling]

The bottom line is that a lot of Americans were promised by government, union and private industry that they would be "taken care of" with pensions if they "just worked hard" and paid into the system. If the government and private industry would've kept their hands out of the pension jar then the system would've been doing fine - but no - they had to BORROW against the pensions and run the economy into the ground - talk about the height of stupidity. Now the government and companies are balking at the cost of having to provide healthcare for a mass of baby boomers. Everybody is greedy, everybody's got their hands out for a payment - the workers, the government, the company, the unions, big healthcare providers, medical suppliers (it's all at "no cost to you" just dial our toll free number!!) and the insurance company - the only problem is nobody has THAT amount of money set aside for it - so they all just point fingers. A few of the companies have decided the best way to deal with it is to go casters up, declare bankruptcy, discharge the debt and then rehire all new employees with very little benefits..

So we tried the "private" way and it is failed miserably.. It's time for something different. I don't think "profit" should drive the quality of care. It would be hard for me to think that an actuary calculates the probability of my spouse living and then decides whether or not she (or he) is worth spending the money so that upper management and the shareholders can get a bonus that year but I guess that's the way the free market economy works. But more than anything whatever we do I don't want to be "retired" and still having to work at a company until I'm 80 years old JUST to be able to afford the prescriptions I need to stay alive,.

There is a reason I keep saying "Forgiveness is so important" - a lot of mistakes have been made.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the free market but there are SOME things in life it shouldn't apply to.. When you treat human beings like just another market commodity strange things happen - riots, suicide, etc. Then we all go around with a dumbfounded look on our faces and say "what happened? I remember when the world used to be simple/moral." .. as if we cannot understand what is happening.

Of course you are all right - something has to give..

We need to build a) a more compassionate society that is less focused on ego/I b) "strong", educated citizens that understand the value of respect and worth for themselves and others as a part of the wider world.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, Elian. What we have isn't working. For many people like me who exist just outside the limits of being covered it will help but only if the state you live in chooses to opt into the program. They don't have to. People claim it will kill jobs, but the jobs are already dead or dying as evidenced by so much high unemployment. We need to do a lot of things here beginning with going back to our roots as a manufacturing country not an importing country. We need to start spending more of our money in our local towns instead of ordering online. In short, we need to get back to being Americans and having our healthcare decisions determined by our discussions with our doctors, not with an insurance company or the government. I've seen NHS in use and I wasn't impressed, as flawed as our system of paying for the treatment is, the way we actually treat people is much better. There is not an easy solution but I for one am getting sick and tired of Europeans crowing about dragging us out of the dark ages. There is a giant reason we dumped your tea, please remember that.

[biguy71]

I suggest everyone just ignore falcondfw. All I have seen him write in a number of threads is right wing BS, most of which is either a distortion of the facts or patently false. He's also insulting to people personally, as well as to their intelligence. That kind of thing isn't even worth replying to.

[æonpax]

Well the only freaking website that is needed regarding this law is the one about the law. WWW.HEALTHCARE.GOV (http://www.HEALTHCARE.GOV) a full on explanation of what is expected to happen at every stage of the way.

You falsely and erroneously assume everyone will understand and accept a "government" standard explanation. I, on the other hand, encourage people to look beyond the handouts any government provides.

The first step in becoming a slave to any ideology is to box yourself in with only ONE explanation or one source

[æonpax]

An interesting question ensues, I wonder how many pensions were paid out of revenue from the sale of illegal drugs? I mean that would be ultimate expression of the "free" market right? To take the money from those with an addiction.. This armchair conspiracy stuff is fun.. :)

Of course now that I think about it, doesn't make a lot of sense, you'd want to maximize profit as much as possible for such a high risk.

Did I mention that I have only the most venomous hate for people who profit off the misery of others?

The Pharmaceutical lobby has an iron grip control of the US government, ergo, the US market and are sucking us dry.

Various studies have found that prescription drug prices are substantially higher in the United States than in other countries. GAO compared U.S. factory prices with those in Canada and found that manufacturers' prices to wholesalers for identical prescription drugs are typically much higher in the United States than in Canada. The price differences are largely attributable to actions taken by Canada's federal and provincial governments to restrain drug prices, not to any differences in manufacturers' costs .

[DuckiesDarling]

You falsely and erroneously assume everyone will understand and accept a "government" standard explanation. I, on the other hand, encourage people to look beyond the handouts any government provides.

The first step in becoming a slave to any ideology is to box yourself in with only ONE explanation or one source

And you falsely assume that people can't sit there and read the ACTUAL LAW for themselves. Have a nice day.

[elian]

I suggest everyone just ignore falcondfw. All I have seen him write in a number of threads is right wing BS, most of which is either a distortion of the facts or patently false. He's also insulting to people personally, as well as to their intelligence. That kind of thing isn't even worth replying to.

People are entitled to their own opinions, even if I disagree I do believe we learn something from the dialogue. I absolutely do believe that this law is flawed, but no law is ever perfect and the lobbyists have such a firm grip on these issues that I am glad that ANY reform law got passed. Of course, reality being what it is I found out for example that my state, PA has "fair care" which you can pay $283/mo for and get health insurance even if you are considered to be "high risk" uninsurable. That seems like a lot of money per month, but at least it is an alternative to "no insurance available".

I will be reading the ACTA to see just what is in there and I would suggest that anyone else who has strong feelings about it do the same. There's no sense in speculating about it using data from third parties when the primary source is available.

[æonpax]

And you falsely assume that people can't sit there and read the ACTUAL LAW for themselves. Have a nice day.

Have you read the nine hundred and seven page PPACA law? I doubt it. Most of it is written in "legal jargon". Here's the law - http://www.ncsl.org/documents/health/ppaca-consolidated.pdf - have at it.

..and you falsely assume the government will tell you everything. Try telling that to US Veterans attempting to navigate their benefit system based only on what the government tells them. Pitiful. Same applies to those on Social Security. Most end up going to third parties for help and many have successfully sued the government based on their erroneous information.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add, if your state choose NOT to participate in the PPACA, which some are doing, you must contact your local federal offices for additional information on how to obtain your benefits under the PPACA and guess what...the "official" source you brought up doesn't even mention that.

A wise person knows their limitations.

[DuckiesDarling]

Have you read the nine hundred and seven page PPACA law? I doubt it. Most of it is written in "legal jargon". Here's the law - http://www.ncsl.org/documents/health/ppaca-consolidated.pdf - have at it.

..and you falsely assume the government will tell you everything. Try telling that to US Veterans attempting to navigate their benefit system based only on what the government tells them. Pitiful. Same applies to those on Social Security. Most end up going to third parties for help and many have successfully sued the government based on their erroneous information.

Aeon, not everyone is an idiot, stop assuming they are and have no clue how to read a law and how to intepret things. As a matter of fact, I did read the entire law and I also followed the Supreme Court case and all the cases that are still pending. I am well aware of what the limits and expectations of this law are in regards to what it will do for ME. That's why I read the law.

[æonpax]

Aeon, not everyone is an idiot, stop assuming they are and have no clue how to read a law and how to intepret things. As a matter of fact, I did read the entire law and I also followed the Supreme Court case and all the cases that are still pending. I am well aware of what the limits and expectations of this law are in regards to what it will do for ME. That's why I read the law.

`
Neither you nor I are representative of the millions of other Americans whom are looking for information regarding the PPACA which is why there are a plethora of other academic and professional sites listing and explaining information on this law. Get off your high horse. I'm NOT talking about YOU. It's prudent and reasonable for any person to seek additional information and advice as is providing such sources of information.

[DuckiesDarling]

`
Neither you nor I are representative of the millions of other Americans whom are looking for information regarding the PPACA which is why there are a plethora of other academic and professional sites listing and explaining information on this law. Get off your high horse. I'm NOT talking about YOU. It's prudent and reasonable for any person to seek additional information and advice as is providing such sources of information.

You are the one on a high horse, sweetie, but then you are just young. Eventually, when you grow up, you'll learn that other people's worlds do not revolve around you and you will only deal with your own personal spectrum of issues. People have to actually make do the best they can. And most people are well aware of how to do things and find information, we don't need to google. My link, not only had the entire legal act as passed by Congress and legalized by the Supreme Court on it, it also had a detailed breakdown and other links to help people with what they can do now and what will be coming in the future. I don't like the law but I do know we need something here and unlike some people I don't just choose to bash someone because of a political agenda when it was damned sure the other side that came up with a model. I guess it's fine for a state but not for a nation when it's in the spotlight.

[elian]

I got my alphabet soup mixed up - ACTA is a whole other law (duh) .. I am on page # 19 of 907.. boy, this is sure fun. I see the NRA got their language into the bill - "A wellness and health promotion activity implemented under subsection (a)(1)(D) may not require the disclosure or collection of any information relating to—

‘‘(A) the presence or storage of a lawfully-possessed
firearm or ammunition in the residence or on the property
of an individual; or
‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm
or ammunition by an individual."

nor can such information be stored in database. Kind of interesting that that's even IN there - I mean I wouldn't normally consider someone who lawfully possesses a weapon or ammunition to be a problem but for whatever reason somebody specifically wants to make sure that demographic not tracked.

Oh that's interesting.. it goes on to say that possession of a firearm or ammunition cannot influence your eligibility for status, special rates or enticements to quit owning a weapon or ammunition.

[elian]

Hmm, there is also language in here that seems to say that insurance companies must show that revenue from premiums going more toward the cost of care than administrative costs and overhead - and that if they don't meet a specified state ratio that the insurance company must provide a certain rebate amount to the consumer. This must be designed to reduce the amount of "shill" companies that would exist in the insurance exchange just to bilk people out of their money.

[falcondfw]

I suggest everyone just ignore falcondfw. All I have seen him write in a number of threads is right wing BS, most of which is either a distortion of the facts or patently false. He's also insulting to people personally, as well as to their intelligence. That kind of thing isn't even worth replying to.

Biguy,
It is nice when people only read one or two things that you have written and form an opinion about your entire personality.

If you truly think I do not try to help others, I think there are several people on here who would strongly disagree with you.

Ignoring people means you can't learn from them and that shows a closed mind. I disagree with a lot of people on politics. Am I "right-wing"? No. Am I conservative? You betcha. Financially. Militarily, Foreign policy wise, and many other ways. Market forces with PROPER controls are the ONLY way this country is not going to be brought to its knees by out of control spending and taxing.

I can disagree with many people politically as long as we can have an honest and open debate based on reason, logic, and intelligence. Does that mean I won't go sulk in a corner if I lose a point? Hell no it doesn't. For example, Joan was right about the 16,000 IRS agents. There are plans to hire additional agents and administrative staff to deal with Obamacare, but no numbers have been stated. The 16,500 figure was based on erroneous assumptions and erroneous math and was put out by some GOP muckity-muck on I think the house oversight committee back in March of 2011.

I reserve the iggy button only for those people who go off on hate filled diatribes or completely vicious personal attacks. You do as you see fit.

[void()]

I got my alphabet soup mixed up - ACTA is a whole other law (duh) .. I am on page # 19 of 907.. boy, this is sure fun. I see the NRA got their language into the bill - "A wellness and health promotion activity implemented under subsection (a)(1)(D) may not require the disclosure or collection of any information relating to—

‘‘(A) the presence or storage of a lawfully-possessed
firearm or ammunition in the residence or on the property
of an individual; or
‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm
or ammunition by an individual."

nor can such information be stored in database. Kind of interesting that that's even IN there - I mean I wouldn't normally consider someone who lawfully possesses a weapon or ammunition to be a problem but for whatever reason somebody specifically wants to make sure that demographic not tracked.

Oh that's interesting.. it goes on to say that possession of a firearm or ammunition cannot influence your eligibility for status, special rates or enticements to quit owning a weapon or ammunition.

*chuckles*

I am not a card carrying NRA member. There are though, a few in my family. Allow me to try to offer an explanation of the thinking and mindset at work behind putting this into the new law. First, the NRA folks value the right to bear arms. They also value the right of privacy, security of their possessions.

Something one could easily foresee.

Government: "Get rid of your guns, we'll send in the Red Cross. Keep your guns and suffer without treatment."
Waco Types: "Pry our guns from our cold dead fingers."
Government: "Fine, won't take long for untreated colon cancer to kill you anyway."

And much as it may seem fanatical, have to side with the Waco types. I'll keep any guns lest the government need reminded of who the real bosses are. We're all dead at any rate, while we live, we live free. Sadly, living free now loses a lot when one considers it is an illusion.

[æonpax]

You are the one on a high horse, sweetie, but then you are just young. Eventually, when you grow up, you'll learn that other people's worlds do not revolve around you and you will only deal with your own personal spectrum of issues. People have to actually make do the best they can. And most people are well aware of how to do things and find information, we don't need to google. My link, not only had the entire legal act as passed by Congress and legalized by the Supreme Court on it, it also had a detailed breakdown and other links to help people with what they can do now and what will be coming in the future. I don't like the law but I do know we need something here and unlike some people I don't just choose to bash someone because of a political agenda when it was damned sure the other side that came up with a model. I guess it's fine for a state but not for a nation when it's in the spotlight.
`

I'm going to magnanimously shunt aside the rest of what you say (I see no utility in it for me to reply) as this particular part in your reply, I have bolded, caught my eye.

Once, in my own relative youth, I was complaining to a geriatric but very dear friend of mine about how some older people should not be driving. His reply was a pithy axiom;

"Stupid young people grow up to be stupid old people."


A hundred years ago, the experience of age gained a person the wisdom...to survive. The elders in any community were treated with reverence, not so much becuase they were wise in all things but becuase they were wise in knowing how to survive.

Now, the only thing age really means, aside from the historical experiences they wish to impart, is that they can afford to live longer and that is what this topic is all about...Affordable Health Care.

So, you must excuse me for being too casual about saying this but you haven't proved or convinced me of a damn thing. You are welcome to your opinions which no doubt play well to those of your ideology. But when it comes to health care, you are way off the mark. Many baby boomers are now finding out that all the money they struggled to save for retirement is going to be eaten up by medical costs. My generation is trying to do something about it.

I still favor a 'single payer' system and think Obamacare (PPACA) doesn't go near far enough to address the out-of-control health care costs. But it's a start.

[void()]

:!::thumbd::banghead::disgust::soapbox::thumbu::bu lb::impleased:2cents::banghead::disgust::disgust:: !::thumbd::2cents:

[rascal48]

lmao............my first reply to a thread on bisex.com........ from a simple mans perspective and one who has labored in a heavy industry for over 37 years....... if anyone thinks this so called healthcare program thinks if free or revenue neutral..... what fools we are!!! i'm so freaking tired of paying taxes for people to sit on their ass all day...... they get ebt cards for food, ebt cards for wic, wank and wonk..... not to mention, two years of unemployment, then only to go on to permanent disability....... i'm so tired of people whining their ass off for anything government can give them.. this has gone over the, top!!!! Cradle to grave government, nanny state, take care of 'poor little me', cause i dont want to get out of bed and find a job..... !!!! My apologies to u all, but, my wife works at the hospital where more babies are born than anywhere in America and trust me.............. the doctors there DO NOT WANT this!!!! So, forgive me for speaking my mind........but....... i've had enough of taking care of those who DONT WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEMSELVES!!!!

[void()]

lmao............my first reply to a thread on bisex.com........ from a simple mans perspective and one who has labored in a heavy industry for over 37 years....... if anyone thinks this so called healthcare program thinks if free or revenue neutral..... what fools we are!!! i'm so freaking tired of paying taxes for people to sit on their ass all day...... they get ebt cards for food, ebt cards for wic, wank and wonk..... not to mention, two years of unemployment, then only to go on to permanent disability....... i'm so tired of people whining their ass off for anything government can give them.. this has gone over the, top!!!! Cradle to grave government, nanny state, take care of 'poor little me', cause i dont want to get out of bed and find a job..... !!!! My apologies to u all, but, my wife works at the hospital where more babies are born than anywhere in America and trust me.............. the doctors there DO NOT WANT this!!!! So, forgive me for speaking my mind........but....... i've had enough of taking care of those who DONT WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEMSELVES!!!!

Your expression here bothered me a bit. I put off replying in order to consider how to reply appropriately.

First, let me ask you a few questions regarding that thirty-seven years in heavy industry. Is that labor a badge of authority? If so, whom granted the authority? Do you think one must somehow earn such authority by enduring misery, to just live? Who gave you such a belief if so? Do you think thirty-seven years outweighs thirty-five? And ultimately, does it really matter and to who?

Second I want to approach your obvious gift of reading minds. You seem to make it clear you can by suggesting people think this law is revenue neutral, whatever that may be. I think a lot of people are aware this law will require more taxation, of course this is only opinion. I do not claim to know what others think, only me.

Third, I want to address a frame of thought. We as Americans, and probably globally, are taught that labor incurs rewards. A slave wrote it as a parable many years ago, he was called Aesop. Not much has changed since his time. We still are enslaved by worry. We worry that we lose a home because we do not work enough. We worry that we cannot buy the newest vain attempt at packaging happiness if we do not toil enough. Here's a thoughtful question. Who is the slave master controlling us? Is the same one granting authority based on thirty-seven years of enduring pain, misery and doing as your told, not following your dreams?

We are also told that we can work hard and receive our dreams, a nice home, nice car, nice life and so on. And then you step back one day and see that this framing of thought has lied. It happened for me upon realizing society requires college degrees to get decent jobs. Sorry, I work to earn money, I don't pay employers money to allow me to work. And this is what getting a college degree seems in order to work seems like to me, paying money to have a job to earn money. See the vicious cycle, yet?

We are told our governments exist to provide for the common welfare of the people they govern. It is pretty clear they no longer do. Instead they keep pushing a broken capitalist framing of thought which says one must earn life. What did you personally do to be born? I don't recall having to do much of anything.

And I do not claim to be irresponsible. In fact I am responsible to varying degrees daily. But that discussion is about another framing of thought, values and definitions and how we each have our own. In summary, what you may consider common sense may not meet up my standards of common sense or vise versa. I will digress for now, have asked you some questions, await your responses. That's how conversation goes, or so I'm told.

[heatman833]

I'll keep my money, my guns and my freedoms. You keep the change!

[elian]

That is all well and good to be proud and take personal responsibility - until you're broke down, wheezing and can't afford shit for healthcare - if you don't have a spouse and you're on a fixed income that pays less and less what then? Freedom doesn't mean much without quality of life.

And what about the people who have never had..? I guess we can just dump them at the ER, and then when the hospital doesn't want them anymore they can drug them up and throw them in a cab...

Between this and PSU report that shows a whole HELL of a lot of *HIGHLY PAID* PSU employees, board members, social workers, psychologists, attorneys and public safety officers could have done more to protect children, but chose not to - what an insane fking world.

It's all about you, isn't it? That's a damn shame.

[DuckiesDarling]

That is all well and good to be proud and take personal responsibility - until you're broke down, wheezing and can't afford shit for healthcare - if you don't have a spouse and you're on a fixed income that pays less and less what then? Freedom doesn't mean much without quality of life.

And what about the people who have never had..? I guess we can just dump them at the ER, and then when the hospital doesn't want them anymore they can drug them up and throw them in a cab...

Between this and PSU report that shows a whole HELL of a lot of *HIGHLY PAID* PSU employees, board members, social workers, psychologists, attorneys and public safety officers could have done more to protect children, but chose not to - what an insane fking world.

It's all about you, isn't it? That's a damn shame.

Even when you have a spouse and are fixed incomes it's insane, Elian. I think I posted on here once before about a conversation I overheard at the office to try and get some help with medical bills. A married couple going on almost 50 years together were basically told if they divorced they would qualify for aid :( Is it any wonder now that people are beginning to give up hope for anything?

[elian]

There has to be a balance between the two schools of thought. We certainly cannot afford to protect EVERYONE (without each person contributing something), but we also must be willing to devote resources to promote and protect the welfare of our community. It just makes me sad that everyone's first thought is CYA. If everyone goes around thinking, "That's someone else's job" and nobody is actually doing it then nothing gets done.

[rascal48]

maybe we just need a few more lawyers and lawsuits in the medical industry, that'll fix it.... and i hardly think 46 millions americans are broke down and whizzing....... if that is the case maybe we should have government sponsered gym memberships, instead of government furnished cell phones.....

[falcondfw]

There has to be a balance between the two schools of thought. We certainly cannot afford to protect EVERYONE (without each person contributing something), but we also must be willing to devote resources to promote and protect the welfare of our community. It just makes me sad that everyone's first thought is CYA. If everyone goes around thinking, "That's someone else's job" and nobody is actually doing it then nothing gets done.

Elian,
You are right. Something has to be done. However the numbers claimed on both sides are bogus. Many people (especially younger people who have been very healthy all their life) choose to go without insurance and take a chance. They are rolling the dice so that they can get more money in their paycheck to save it or whatever. Then, when they get older and are more likely to need insurance, they will get it.

The COBRA laws were passed to deal with the gaps in coverage experienced when someone loses a job. They only reason those laws don't work is because someone in Congress forgot to use common sense and their brains when crafting the law. What I mean is, losing job = no income. No income = difficulty paying for things. So let's increase the cost of their medical coverage to make it even harder for people to buy the COBRA insurance. The cost for COBRA is outrageous, usually 2, 3, or 4 times what the person was paying as an employee of the company. Nobody can afford it. So, while they are technically uninsured, they are only uninsured until they find another job.

Another reason the numbers are skewed is because people may lose their medical coverage for part of the year, but may have it for most of the year. This could happen because of job change or not being able to pay the premiums for a month or two. While these people are technically uninsured, it depends when the poll people call to ask about coverage. If they call through most of the year, those people are covered, but if the pollsters call at a time when people are in a gap, they are uninsured and they skew the government numbers.

Yes, something needs to be done, but honestly, the country can't afford a huge monstrosity like obamacare. We are already 15 trillion dollars in debt (6 trillion of that added by President Obama through his stimulus spending which has done nothing). But there are things we can do without adding to the debt and defecit. Allow people to buy insurance across state lines would be one thing i can think of. The competition will lower prices for all. Torte reform to limit punitive damages. Actual damages should always be paid for in full, but punitive damage limitation will make it less attractive for people to file frivilous lawsuits. Those frivilous lawsuits add to all our healthcare costs in the insurance doctors and hospitals have to buy and in how they treat patients.

We need to do the common sense things we can right now and then worry about extensive frameworks when we can afford it.

[elian]

Well, the interesting thing in my mind is that I have a friend, now retired who used to work for the insurance lobby and so I asked her one time what she thought. Her response was, "Oh, everyone knows single payer is the way to go" .. Kind of interesting response for someone whose paycheck gets paid out of the private insurance industry.

I guess I can understand rascal's frustration and the only issue I have with falcon's response is that yes, when you're on COBRA you at least have to pay the full cost of the policy, if not more. So working is the main way that people subsidize their insurance, but what happens when you're too old to work? ..and a combination of both statements is the problem I have with leaving healthcare totally up to private industry. The fact that they control the care, they control what they will pay and medical providers charging 500% more than the service is actually worth because they want to max out the benefit they get from the insurance plan.

For ONE test my 80 year old neighbor was billed $70K..(I think it was an EKG) there's no way in hell she'd ever be able to pay that, but that's what they charge so that they can get the maximum reimbursement from any plan. Of course she immediately went to the hospital billing dept and told them she was going to send them what she could afford per month - which wasn't anywhere NEAR $70K.. Surprise me that she didn't have a heart attack RIGHT THERE looking at the damn bill. I think the services doctors and facilities provide are useful, but whatever happened to country docs that used to barter for stuff? Big world eh? A lot more complicated than it used to be I suppose.

[falcondfw]

$70K for an EKG? That's not possible.

I was in the hospital for a week and had an emergency appendectomy along with a battery of tests (they and i had no idea why i was sick when i went in. All I know is I was bleeding profusely from places that one should not bleed.). They estimate I lost almost 3 pints of blood before I went in to the hospital. I was on IV for that week, replacing the lost blood and fluids, and pain killer (demorol) after the surgery. The whole bill was $50k. This happened 2 or 3 years ago.

If they did bill her that amount, it has to be a mistake. Maybe someone typed an extra 0 and didn't check their work. She needs to go the hospital or wherever she had the test and raise holy hell until someone figures out where the mistake was.

As for your concern about "What happens when you are too old to work?", it's called medicare. That's what it was invented for.

People tend to get the wrong impression that people who are against Obamacare think the system is fine the way it is and needs no fixing. That is not what I am saying. There are some serious issues in health care today, but we have the best medical system in the world. Try going to the Philippines and seeing what kind of care you get. In many countries around the world, risky medicines are allowed to get through the approval process, because someone was paid off. People sell fake medicines cheap, because they know even if they get caught, the right bribe here or there will take care of the matter, if they are even penalized at all.

The point is, Obamacare is not about healthcare. It is about control. The government telling you that you MUST buy an approved health plan or they will "tax" you. Investor's Business Daily did an examination of Obamacare. They found there were 20 new taxes implemented by Obamacare, disguised as fees or penalties. Why, if the law is about improving healthcare and insuring more people, are these taxes in this bill? And the biggest thing of all is if this law is so fantastic why were 1231 waivers granted to companies and unions and why did congress exempt itself from this law? If this law is so great and is going to save so much, shouldn't everyone take advantage of those savings?

I don't want anyone telling me what I HAVE TO buy or herding me into a government run system. Does anyone seriously believe the government will run this system competently and fairly? Just like they have done with Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid? If so I have some land in South Florida I would like to talk to you about. It gets a little wet from time to time but that's no big deal.

[Dog62]

many of which are long term and life threatening where the US currently falls down very badly.. families totalling some 60 million people are deprived this right currently Exactly where does this "right" to long term healthcare come from? You have asked others to cite a source, so could you please share this one with us? When we we all have the "right" to government sponsored cell phones? Hey, I'm all in for the Obamacare gasoline program. After all don't we all have the "right" to travel? I think the hard working people that can afford to go on vacation should all have to chip in and finance vacations for all of the rest of us. Can I paraphrase your earlier statement? Many are abandoned in mid vacation because they are unable to afford it or they are unable to afford their regular bills once vacation is completed. Does that even make sense? Well, to some of you kool-aid drinkers, I bet it does.

Sorry folks, someone else mentioned mentioned how everyone had a CYA attitude and weren't willing to help the less fortunate. The reason for that is there are ,more and more "less fortunate" and fewer and fewer people able to help. I'm sorry but I have worked hard all my life and I have been at the same job for 38 years. I will retire at age 55 (which is REAL close) with an annual retirement income in excess of $60k PLUS the income from my own savings. I do not begrudge the people that get laid off, the people that have hit hard times, but I can show you entire families that haven't had a job in several generations. Why? Because the government supports them...with MY tax money. The more babies they make, the more the government pays them. Hey, why not pay for their birth control pills and rubbers. It would be LOT cheaper than supporting that child that is just a bigger paycheck as far as the parents are concerned. And now you want me to pay for them to all have health insurance? Go ask your parents how many of them had health insurance when they were young. And your grandparents. They saved their money and paid their own bills. Well I put my kids through school. I raised MY family and I have saved MY money. I have insured that me and mine were taken care of. Like my father did, when times got hard, I got an additional job and WORKED my way through it. I have never taken a dime in unemployment, neither did my father and I'd be willing to bet, neither will my son. And I have no intention of paying to support any of these lazy bastards that want to sit around and teach another generation of their family how to milk the system. If they aren't willing to support the system, they please tell me why the fuck should the system be "obligated" to support them?


In a week where I have smiled much, and good things have happened to me, .. the Supreme court decision on Obamacare is certainly one of the nicest, And it will go down in the history books as one of the darkest moments in the history of this country. I'd be willing to bet, that when they look back, it will be recognized as what it truly is, a milestone in the road to ruin for this Nation.

[DuckiesDarling]

I do want to point out one thing though... the remarks regarding disability are incorrect. People who draw disability and yes I am one of them, have to qualify with work credits just as you would when you reach retirement age. I have worked my entire life until I got too sick to work and since I've been in the hospital more than I've been home the last few months I am not out just celebrating not having to work and getting paid. Every month I rob Peter to pay Paul and struggle to pay my bills while incurring new ones. I, too, have a problem with the baby factory welfare system but there has always been some sort of aid that was needed. Problems now is the economy and the loss of dual incomes for some families have forced people to seek assistance that never would have dreamed of asking for a thing. But when your kids need to eat, you do what you need to do.

So instead of everyone just bitching about the bill how about coming up with a solution that isn't politics inspired? I don't like the bill either but it is a start on trying to cut down the involvement of insurance companies in medical decisions that should be between a patient and the doctor. A treatment course should be decided on by what will be most effective with the least side effects instead of whatever the insurance will cover.

[falcondfw]

I have already proposed several ideas Duckie. The GOP in Congress have proposed other ideas. Some of which I feel will be good. Some will not be so good.

The point is neither side is even willing to consider the ideas of the other side. The reason? They like the system the way it is with the influence peddling and payouts. Reforming the system does not help those idiots get rich. How many congressmen go there fairly well off, but not disgustingly rich? What happens after they are there for 4 years? Suddenly they are very wealthy. Every stinkin one of the lobbyist groups pays these jerks off in the hopes that the ideas that group supports will be passed into law to further make money for the lobbyists. Doesn't matter if the lobbyists are wight-wing or left-wing. They all do it.

There are reforms that can be done right now that will not cost the government (the taxpayers) one thin dime. Those are the kinds of reforms we need. We can also do regulatory reform to make it better for doctors, hospitals, and clinics to do business. Not to reduce they safety, but to reduce the ridiculous paperwork burdens.

We need more reforms than those I have mentioned, but we cannot afford those other reforms. The government already borrows 40+ cents of every dollar it spends. We can't afford to spend more money we don't have.

[æonpax]

There has to be a balance between the two schools of thought. We certainly cannot afford to protect EVERYONE (without each person contributing something), but we also must be willing to devote resources to promote and protect the welfare of our community. It just makes me sad that everyone's first thought is CYA. If everyone goes around thinking, "That's someone else's job" and nobody is actually doing it then nothing gets done.

As I had stated in an earlier post, health care was NOT a problem until the early 80’s when Reagan foolishly went on a deregulation craze. Health care costs were regulated and under control. Those poor and indigent, were covered at minimal or no cost to the tax payers. It was a win-win situation. But no longer.

When it comes to cost, many whine about it. The upfront cost will run to about a trillion dollars. However, those same people whom complain about that, say nothing about the 4 to 5 trillion dollars (and loss of human life) these senseless and immoral wars we are getting into…which benefit only the corporations.

This is a moral issue. A study by Harvard Medical School and the Cambridge Health Alliance, which will appear in the December issue of the American Journal of Public Health, found that 45,000 deaths a year are associated with a lack of health insurance. In addition, it found that uninsured, working-age Americans have a 40% higher risk of death than their privately insured counterparts, up from 25% in 1993, according to a Harvard Web site. - http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/ - That number is increasing.

Then there are the religious objections. Many hide behind the tax excuse but their real objection is that the PPACA covers abortions and contraceptives. So they are willing to chuck the whole thing just because of that. Hypocrisy at it’s gutter best. Stop abortions yet not a word about those already born who have died for lack of insurance.

Lastly, who says it’s the employers duty to provide health insurance anyways? There is no law that says they must. This is why many companies are no longer offering health insurance and why this is fast becoming a major national problem.

[æonpax]

Exactly where does this "right" to long term healthcare come from? You have asked others to cite a source, so could you please share this one with us? When we we all have the "right" to government sponsored cell phones? Hey, I'm all in for the Obamacare gasoline program. After all don't we all have the "right" to travel? I think the hard working people that can afford to go on vacation should all have to chip in and finance vacations for all of the rest of us. Can I paraphrase your earlier statement? Many are abandoned in mid vacation because they are unable to afford it or they are unable to afford their regular bills once vacation is completed. Does that even make sense? Well, to some of you kool-aid drinkers, I bet it does.

Sorry folks, someone else mentioned mentioned how everyone had a CYA attitude and weren't willing to help the less fortunate. The reason for that is there are ,more and more "less fortunate" and fewer and fewer people able to help. I'm sorry but I have worked hard all my life and I have been at the same job for 38 years. I will retire at age 55 (which is REAL close) with an annual retirement income in excess of $60k PLUS the income from my own savings. I do not begrudge the people that get laid off, the people that have hit hard times, but I can show you entire families that haven't had a job in several generations. Why? Because the government supports them...with MY tax money. The more babies they make, the more the government pays them. Hey, why not pay for their birth control pills and rubbers. It would be LOT cheaper than supporting that child that is just a bigger paycheck as far as the parents are concerned. And now you want me to pay for them to all have health insurance? Go ask your parents how many of them had health insurance when they were young. And your grandparents. They saved their money and paid their own bills. Well I put my kids through school. I raised MY family and I have saved MY money. I have insured that me and mine were taken care of. Like my father did, when times got hard, I got an additional job and WORKED my way through it. I have never taken a dime in unemployment, neither did my father and I'd be willing to bet, neither will my son. And I have no intention of paying to support any of these lazy bastards that want to sit around and teach another generation of their family how to milk the system. If they aren't willing to support the system, they please tell me why the fuck should the system be "obligated" to support them?

And it will go down in the history books as one of the darkest moments in the history of this country. I'd be willing to bet, that when they look back, it will be recognized as what it truly is, a milestone in the road to ruin for this Nation.


The old standby….I worked all my life and earned my keep. The hell with everyone else. How narrow minded and short-sighted…not to mention selfish, uninformed and condescending. Do you know how many other Americans lost all their life savings in 2008 because of the absolute greed of the Wall Street Bankers and investors? (http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Reports/Economic_Mobility/Cost-of-the-Crisis-final.pdf ) and (http://www.nber.org/bah/2010no3/w16407.html ) Tens of millions were affected and tens of thousands lost just about everything. If you came though this unscathed, it was due to only one thing; Luck.

Your next tired cliché, those on welfare. Before you go on repeating the myths and lies the right is so fond of spewing, do you have any actually statistics on the chronically unemployed? What are those percentages and what the “real” cost is?

You better stop living in the past…a past that never really exited anyways, except in the minds of those who want to believe it existed. This isn’t “Little House On The Prairie” where Doc will take a few chickens in lieu of cash payment. The world does not revolve or operate around you and your experiences. Perhaps you should check into a few facts first, such as; The History of Health Insurance - http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/thomasson.insurance.health.us or Health Care Reform and Social Movements in the United States - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447696/

As for the legal right to health care, no it is not specifically mentioned in the US Constitution but there are many things that do exist in the US. Just because it is not mentioned does not preclude its existence.

Those who do not have health insurance do ultimately receive care, of course - but often in hospital emergency rooms, where treatment is much more expensive than in a doctor's office. Our system is thus both callous and extravagant, costing much more than it should while delivering substandard results.

The World Health Organization gives the U.S. health system an overall ranking of 37th in the world, far below other Western democracies. The CIA World Factbook - hardly the work of a bunch of left-leaning liberals - reports that life expectancy in the United States is not just lower than in other industrialized countries but also lower than in Jordan and Bosnia.

Most working-age Americans who have health insurance obtained it through their employers. But this is a haphazard and inefficient delivery route that puts U.S. businesses at a disadvantage against foreign competitors, most of which shoulder no such burden. Tying health insurance to the workplace also distorts the labor market and discourages entrepreneurship by forcing some employees to stay where they are - even in dead-end jobs - rather than give up health insurance. The government needs to get involved in this, at the highest levels.

What will be going down in history as our darkest moment will be the rise of of the ultra conservative right and how their self righteous bile almost destroyed this great nation.

[falcondfw]

As I had stated in an earlier post, health care was NOT a problem until the early 80’s when Reagan foolishly went on a deregulation craze. Health care costs were regulated and under control. Those poor and indigent, were covered at minimal or no cost to the tax payers. It was a win-win situation. But no longer.

When it comes to cost, many whine about it. The upfront cost will run to about a trillion dollars. However, those same people whom complain about that, say nothing about the 4 to 5 trillion dollars (and loss of human life) these senseless and immoral wars we are getting into…which benefit only the corporations.

This is a moral issue. A study by Harvard Medical School and the Cambridge Health Alliance, which will appear in the December issue of the American Journal of Public Health, found that 45,000 deaths a year are associated with a lack of health insurance. In addition, it found that uninsured, working-age Americans have a 40% higher risk of death than their privately insured counterparts, up from 25% in 1993, according to a Harvard Web site. - http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/ - That number is increasing.

Then there are the religious objections. Many hide behind the tax excuse but their real objection is that the PPACA covers abortions and contraceptives. So they are willing to chuck the whole thing just because of that. Hypocrisy at it’s gutter best. Stop abortions yet not a word about those already born who have died for lack of insurance.

Lastly, who says it’s the employers duty to provide health insurance anyways? There is no law that says they must. This is why many companies are no longer offering health insurance and why this is fast becoming a major national problem.

Joan,
Are you sure it was Reagan and not George Bush that destroyed everything? Seems to me over the last 3.5 years the favorite whipping post of the left is George Bush.

Employers offer health coverage for one reason and one reason only. Too attract the best workers. That is what free markets and competition do. They make companies compete for the best candidates. As a result, many times, the employer with the best package gets the best employees.

Couching this as a completely moral issue is ridiculous. There are so many factors that go into reform decisions. Is there a moral component? definitely. Everyone should have compassion for their fellow man and their fellow Americans. But in no way are these reform decisions only moral ones. Besides, Obamacare has nothing to do with compassion or healthcare. It is all about control. Dictating what we must do or dey will spank us bad widdle amewicans wif a nasty old tax, err I mean penalty, er i mean tax (Whenever Obama makes up his mind about what it is, let me know.).

I think you are reaching with the taxes vs. abortion idea. Seriously reaching. Honestly, that is the first time I have heard/seen anybody state that. Yes, a lot of religious conservatives object to the abortion and contraception mandates in the bill. I'm sorry. I know we will never agree on this, but the government has absolutely no business telling private, religious organizations what things have to be included in the health care they offer. Especially if what the government demands is completely repugnant to those religions and opposition to those demands is a major part of the beliefs of those religions (and it ain't just Catholics). Ever hear of separation of Church and state? A school can't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it has the word God in it. But that same government has no problem telling religions that they have to pay to support killing of babies or the prevention of creating them. Now THAT is Hypocrisy.

Senseless and Immoral wars? Really? Tell that to the 3,000 people who died in the twin towers. Oooopppssss. That's right, you can't. Tell that to most of their families and they would probably slap the taste out of your mouth. Or how about telling that to the soldiers who have gone over there to make it impossible for those murderous bastards to attack us again. And yes, in this case, I have the right to say it. If you didn't serve, I don't want to hear your pacifist BS. Go live in Switzerland. But don't dare insult those who died on 9/11 or those who serve.

45,000 deaths a year? I'd like to see what kind of examination of those numbers they did. How many of those are illegals who work in higher risk jobs like roofing or out in the blazing sun picking vegetables all day or other risky jobs illegals do? You want to keep paying for people who are breaking the law to be here? I don't. I'm bloody tired of it. And how many of those deaths are from younger people who have deliberately chosen not to pay for health insurance and get in a car wreck or have some other kind of accident. If you look at it, the article clearly says you had to participate in a survey to be counted in the study. How were participants chosen? Was it random? Or was there some kind of control group? Again, they may have not had health insurance when they died, but that depends on when they died, doesn't it? They could have had health insurance for 20 years and gotten laid off the month before. As a contract programmer, I work sometimes 6 months in a bad year. I have insurance when I am working, but when I am between contracts, I don't. So am I insured? Am I uninsured? I am between contracts right now. If I die today, would I be counted in the uninsured statistics? I am supposed to start a new job Monday. Will I be counted as insured?

Surveys and polls can be skewed any way you want based on how the study is done or how the question is asked. Look at how the Labor Department skews the unemployment numbers.

[æonpax]

You should apologize - I think you owe Dog62 an apology. What you posted was pretty damned rude and personal. Attack the ideas, not the person.

Falc, please do NOT send me anymore of your PM's. They are NOT needed, wanted, nor desired...aside from the fact that you are hardly a person that personifies even temperance on issues or commands universal respect

The post stands as is.

[æonpax]

Joan,
Are you sure it was Reagan and not George Bush that destroyed everything? Seems to me over the last 3.5 years the favorite whipping post of the left is George Bush.
Employers offer health coverage for one reason and one reason only. Too attract the best workers. That is what free markets and competition do. They make companies compete for the best candidates. As a result, many times, the employer with the best package gets the best employees.
Couching this as a completely moral issue is ridiculous. There are so many factors that go into reform decisions. Is there a moral component? definitely. Everyone should have compassion for their fellow man and their fellow Americans. But in no way are these reform decisions only moral ones. Besides, Obamacare has nothing to do with compassion or healthcare. It is all about control. Dictating what we must do or dey will spank us bad widdle amewicans wif a nasty old tax, err I mean penalty, er i mean tax (Whenever Obama makes up his mind about what it is, let me know.).
I think you are reaching with the taxes vs. abortion idea. Seriously reaching. Honestly, that is the first time I have heard/seen anybody state that. Yes, a lot of religious conservatives object to the abortion and contraception mandates in the bill. I'm sorry. I know we will never agree on this, but the government has absolutely no business telling private, religious organizations what things have to be included in the health care they offer. Especially if what the government demands is completely repugnant to those religions and opposition to those demands is a major part of the beliefs of those religions (and it ain't just Catholics). Ever hear of separation of Church and state? A school can't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it has the word God in it. But that same government has no problem telling religions that they have to pay to support killing of babies or the prevention of creating them. Now THAT is Hypocrisy.Senseless and Immoral wars? Really? Tell that to the 3,000 people who died in the twin towers. Oooopppssss. That's right, you can't. Tell that to most of their families and they would probably slap the taste out of your mouth. Or how about telling that to the soldiers who have gone over there to make it impossible for those murderous bastards to attack us again. And yes, in this case, I have the right to say it. If you didn't serve, I don't want to hear your pacifist BS. Go live in Switzerland. But don't dare insult those who died on 9/11 or those who serve.
45,000 deaths a year? I'd like to see what kind of examination of those numbers they did. How many of those are illegals who work in higher risk jobs like roofing or out in the blazing sun picking vegetables all day or other risky jobs illegals do? You want to keep paying for people who are breaking the law to be here? I don't. I'm bloody tired of it. And how many of those deaths are from younger people who have deliberately chosen not to pay for health insurance and get in a car wreck or have some other kind of accident. If you look at it, the article clearly says you had to participate in a survey to be counted in the study. How were participants chosen? Was it random? Or was there some kind of control group? Again, they may have not had health insurance when they died, but that depends on when they died, doesn't it? They could have had health insurance for 20 years and gotten laid off the month before. As a contract programmer, I work sometimes 6 months in a bad year. I have insurance when I am working, but when I am between contracts, I don't. So am I insured? Am I uninsured? I am between contracts right now. If I die today, would I be counted in the uninsured statistics? I am supposed to start a new job Monday. Will I be counted as insured?
Surveys and polls can be skewed any way you want based on how the study is done or how the question is asked. Look at how the Labor Department skews the unemployment numbers.
`

Your garrulous post is just one long OPINION, absent of any facts and full of your own myths and skewed perspective.

I have been systematically proving my case by use of studies and statistics. Your arguments are all ideologically bias.

You have again proved that you don't want to be informed and again proved your inability to be able to read anything that disagrees with your boxed in little world. Had you read any of the links I provided, you would not be asking such unintelligent question and throwing out academically researched reports becuase of some kind of false belief that everything is skewed.

You and your talking points always have a ring of falseness to them becuase you cannot prove them nor do you even attempt to. All you do is repeat the exact same thing, over, and over and over again in the hopes that sometime, uninitiated and wholly misinformed, will by into your schmeal.

Put up...or shut up.

[falcondfw]

`

Your garrulous post is just one long OPINION, absent of any facts and full of your own myths and skewed perspective.

I have been systematically proving my case by use of studies and statistics. Your arguments are all ideologically bias.

You have again proved that you don't want to be informed and again proved your inability to be able to read anything that disagrees with your boxed in little world. Had you read any of the links I provided, you would not be asking such unintelligent question and throwing out academically researched reports becuase of some kind of false belief that everything is skewed.

You and your talking points always have a ring of falseness to them becuase you cannot prove them nor do you even attempt to. All you do is repeat the exact same thing, over, and over and over again in the hopes that sometime, uninitiated and wholly misinformed, will by into your schmeal.

Put up...or shut up.

Now just hang on a minute BITCH! Put that vile liberal mind back in it's box.

You want it this way, you got it.

One. I did not insult you or call you any names like garrulous or unintelligent. I talked on the ideas. It is you who cannot respond to someone without insults, which shows a lack of intelligence, thoughtfulness, and class.

Two. Systematically proving your point with government figures that everyone knows are skewed. Oh yeah. Right. That really makes your point. Anyone who believes government numbers carte blanche, shows just how either brainwashed or stupid they are. Which are you?

Three. If I did not visit your links, how would I have known that that government survey required people to voluntarily take part? Now who's the unintelligent and uninformed one? Who's liberal bias is showing when they ignore such an obvious fact that shows that I did read the survey.

My arguments are all ideologically based? Not by half. Does ideology play a part? DUH! As if it doesn't in your arguments? You are trying to persuade people that your philosophy is right. I am trying to show people that mine is right. Stop restating the obvious.

I don't want to be informed? So how is it that I was the one who gave you props that the 16,000 IRS agent number was wrong? I listen. I learn. I make mistakes. I apologize. I give credit where credit is due. You on the other hand give no one credit but yourself. It must really be nice to be so perfect. Everybody has to learn from you and your sources. I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the government lies about statistics all the time. As I have said before, look at the unemployment statistics. For another thing to look at, the initial cost of Obamacare, before they passed it was $900 billion over 10 years. A few months ago, the CBO came out and said "nope. we were wrong. The cost is $1.8 trillion." (If you need sources look it up on google. it was covered by every news reporting agency. But in case you are too lazy to look it up, here: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/barackobama-happy-birthday-obamacare/. ABC news is not exactly a conservative organization.). This was back in March. Quietly, a few days ago, this came out: http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156659733/weekly-standard-obamacare-cost-estimates-rise. You still believe numbers the government tells you? Then you (general you, not you specifically aeon) are dumber than a bag of hammers. So try reading those facts. You say I am the one closed minded and living in my own little box. Let's see if you have the cajones to read those links from those liberal organizations.

So. I have put up. Now F off with your rude behavior.

I don't prove all of my points, because I don't have the time all day to sit there and look up gotchas. I have a life to lead. I have proven several of my points in this and other postings. I'm sorry I don't meet your standard of having 5 sources to back up that "is" is actually a word.

oh. and PS. I PM'ed you because I did not think you wanted to get called out publicly, but following your instructions : You owe dog62 an apology. Your post was rude and personal, without him getting personal to you first. You just hate it when people disagree with you and you can't handle it when people think you are not perfect, hence your posts to dog and me. Grow up little girl the world doesn't revolve around you.

And just a hint, one of the main reasons my ex is now an ex is because she had an attitude just like yours. She thinks her s don't stink. But she has no problem sitting on her fat ass all day using the kids child support money to barely squeak from one month to the next, instead of getting off her ass and getting a job. It is attitudes like hers and yours that have started the decline of this nation.

P.P.S. You can respond if you want, but this is my last response TO YOU on this thread and probably on any other.

[void()]

I was on IV for that week, replacing the lost blood and fluids, and
pain killer (demorol) after the surgery. The whole bill was $50k. This
happened 2 or 3 years ago.

Was hospitalized for diverticulitis about five years ago. At the time
I was working forty plus hours a week, not paying much attention to
diet. On the itemized hospital bills two acetaminophen tablets cost
thirty dollars each, totaling seventy five together inclusive of
taxes. Those same tablets could be purchased at any department store,
drug store for about four dollars per hundred count.



The point is, Obamacare is not about healthcare. It is about control.
The government telling you that you MUST buy an approved health plan
or they will "tax" you.


Exactly, control it is.


I raised MY family and I have saved MY money. I have insured that me
and mine were taken care of. Like my father did, when times got hard,
I got an additional job and WORKED my way through it.


Did you physically produce the money? Doesn't the Federal Reserve Bank
print most U.S. legal tender? Would that in effect make it not your
money, but the government's?

I am happy you have been able to provide for your family. Not all of
us granted that luxury. I have worked thirty five years as unskilled
labor in various fields. I have tried saving money and done so to a
degree at times, until the next unavoidable minor catastrophe depletes
that little egg.

I even volunteered to serve in the military, willing
to provide twenty years of service or more if desired. Unfortunately,
for whatever rationale the military rejected me.

Forget buying insurance when wages hardly provide enough to live on.
Yes, we have and do use some minor luxuries in life. There has to be
more than only survival. We use Netflix, at twenty dollars a month.

The Internet account here runs around thirty dollars and is divided
amongst three families, satellite television is another fifty shared
between us. So, I suppose one could argue me and wife spend around
forty to fifty dollars a month on luxuries.

I would also like to offer her parents something for monthly rent. A
single bedroom here runs around five hundred a month. Considering that
all three families here, her father a forty year military service
retiree will be happy with two hundred a month, we pitch in on food
and other costs as able. Yesterday, it took me ten minutes to get up
out of bed. This was due to likely arthritis, possibly brought on from
the working earlier in life.

Money is used as a means of control. It always has been, probably
always will be. An idea, a concept to continue a strategy of dividing
and conquering is what I believe it is. Just a shame few see the irony
of "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill.

[Dog62]

The old standby….I worked all my life and earned my keep. The hell with everyone else. How narrow minded and short-sighted…not to mention selfish, uninformed and condescending. Do you know how many other Americans lost all their life savings in 2008 because of the absolute greed of the Wall Street Bankers and investors? (http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Reports/Economic_Mobility/Cost-of-the-Crisis-final.pdf ) and (http://www.nber.org/bah/2010no3/w16407.html ) Tens of millions were affected and tens of thousands lost just about everything. If you came though this unscathed, it was due to only one thing; Luck.
I love this paragraph. The very thing you are whining about is the group of people that I specifically stated that I thought were deserving. What a typical response. You just bitch and whine about whatever , irregardless of what I actually said.


Your next tired cliché, those on welfare. Before you go on repeating the myths and lies the right is so fond of spewing, do you have any actually statistics on the chronically unemployed? What are those percentages and what the “real” cost is?
Are you totally illiterate or what? Did you read what I posted? Did you understand it? Why do I need stat when what I said was that I can actually show you these people. Surely the ones I know of are not THE ONLY ones doing it. There are loads of people cheating the system. What stats do you want? One group in every major city in this country is is too many. DUH



As for the legal right to health care, no it is not specifically mentioned in the US Constitution but there are many things that do exist in the US. Just because it is not mentioned does not preclude its existence. Now that is really funny. If it isn't specifically mention, then it does not exist. You can imagine it, you can dream it and you can wish for it, but the one thing you cannot do is create a "right" where one is not mentioned. You might ought to get you a copy of the constitution and the bill of rights and actually READ them. Don't rely on what they taught you in grade school, try actually reading them. If it isn't there, it isn't a "right". If your reply wasn't so pathetic, and an indicator of the problem we have in this country it would be funny. You have no "right" for the government to support you, give you a job, hold your hand when you are scared. Where do you get this idea? Never mind. You will never get it, until this country is TOTALLY bankrupt. You will continue to give away the farm in the name of"rights" and "decency" until every one is "equal"...except of course the truly rich. You will "share" everything until the workers quit working and become the welfare recipients. Eventually we will run out of workers, just like we have killed creativity and the desire to succeed. We want to do away with valedictorians in schools because we dont want to hurt the feelings of the rest of school. We don't keep score anymore in the younger sports teams because we don't want the losers to feel bad. What is the sense in trying hard to be the best, if there is no "best", there is just "mediocrocy".


The government needs to get involved in this, at the highest levels. And they need to come cook my dinner, and drive me to work and deliver my groceries. I have an itch on my left foot right now. Will they come fix that for me too. What else do you want someone to pay for you to have without you having to take responsibility for ? Do they need to bring you clothes and dress you each morning? Why does the government need to "get involved"? This country has survived for, oh gee a few hundred years without the government having to manage healthcare. What has changed that we now need the government to do this for us? We have turned into a country of wimps for one. Ask anyone over the age of 50 how many times, as a child, that their parents took them to an emergency room. Then go sit in an emergency room lobby and look at all the people that run their kids straight to the ER for a runny nose. The change is us. There is no major need for better health insurance, there is a major need for people to take responsibility for themselves and learn to raise their family the way our grandparents did, rather than whining for the government to do it for them.


You keep whining and praising the "share" with the less fortunate. You are truly naive. The more people like you that I see, the more I like my dogs.

[losangeles4all]

Oh wow. So many are in support of theft.

I am sorry, I may be bisexual, and that means I lay down with both, but I am not a thief.

Obamacare equals theft, plain and simple. It absolutely doesn't matter who is going to receive what benefit and how bad they need it. What matters is that someone is going to be violently forced to pay for it.

And when you violently take what is not yours, you can bring about any excuse that makes you feel great, you're still remain a thief.

[æonpax]

<snip>

Now just hang on a minute BITCH! Put that vile liberal mind back in it's box.
I figured you were putting on a ruse. Criticizing a person’s opinion as “stupid” (which I did not say) is one thing. Calling another person a “bitch”, another.


You want it this way, you got it.
Now, you are just being yourself.


One. I did not insult you or call you any names like garrulous or unintelligent. I talked on the ideas. It is you who cannot respond to someone without insults, which shows a lack of intelligence, thoughtfulness, and class.
Look up garrulous, it means excessively talkative in a rambling, roundabout manner, esp. about trivial matters. Makes you cry, eh? and “unintelligent” was in reference to your post, not you. Dang, you wear your emotions on a sleeve, take everything too seriously, but that’s your problem.


Two. Systematically proving your point with government figures that everyone knows are skewed.
Who is “everybody?” Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Can you prove those figures are wrong? That’s a rhetorical question as you can’t.


Oh yeah. Right. That really makes your point. Anyone who believes government numbers carte blanche, shows just how either brainwashed or stupid they are. Which are you?
Government figures are quoted by both parties, are used in all academic research, are used in short/long range planning by all businesses, are taught in all schools from primary to college and are used by all state and local governments…and then there’s you. All things being equal, I’ll side with the former group I mentioned.


Three. If I did not visit your links, how would I have known that that government survey required people to voluntarily take part?
Which supposed “government survey” is that? Please post the link here. Too bad none of the links I posted contained a survey.


Now who's the unintelligent and uninformed one?
I wonder.


Who's liberal bias is showing when they ignore such an obvious fact that shows that I did read the survey.
What are you talking about? Please reference this supposed survey...the one that doesn't exist.


My arguments are all ideologically based?
Yes and in your case, far-right conservative.


Not by half.
You are correct, ALL of your opinions are far-right conservative. If you’d post some documented facts once in awhile, which you never do, maybe we could discuss them.


Does ideology play a part? DUH! As if it doesn't in your arguments?
Ideology affects most things political, but not all. One needs to be schooled as to where the line is drawn between dealing with people who use opinions as fact (like you do) and facts as they influence reality…a reality you just are not seeing.


You are trying to persuade people that your philosophy is right. I am trying to show people that mine is right. Stop restating the obvious.
You are playing up to your crowd of people using opinions. I have no problem with that. But when you wrongfully assume your opinions are facts, I am going to correct such misinformation.


I don't want to be informed?
Exactly.


So how is it that I was the one who gave you props that the 16,000 IRS agent number was wrong?
Because I proved my point using irrefutable FACTS. Ther was no way for you to wiggle out of it.


I listen. I learn. I make mistakes. I apologize. I give credit where credit is due. You on the other hand give no one credit but yourself. It must really be nice to be so perfect. Everybody has to learn from you and your sources.
Now you are playing the sympathy/emotional card and in doing that, sidetracking this issue.


I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the government lies about statistics all the time.
Prove it. Offer some proof that unequivocally proves that ALL government statistics and data are wrong or skewed. I’ll wait.


As I have said before, look at the unemployment statistics. For another thing to look at, the initial cost of Obamacare, before they passed it was $900 billion over 10 years. A few months ago, the CBO came out and said "nope. we were wrong. The cost is $1.8 trillion." (If you need sources look it up on google. it was covered by every news reporting agency. But in case you are too lazy to look it up, here: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...day-obamacare/. ABC news is not exactly a conservative organization.). This was back in March.
Excuse me but this link you provided say NOTHING about this subject. Besides that, it’s some guys opinion blog on ABC, not a researched news story.


Quietly, a few days ago, this came out: http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156659...estimates-rise. You still believe numbers the government tells you? Then you (general you, not you specifically aeon) are dumber than a bag of hammers. So try reading those facts. You say I am the one closed minded and living in my own little box. Let's see if you have the cajones to read those links from those liberal organizations.
Go to that site yoursself then look under that chart, the small print. What does it say? It is estimates based on the CBO….Do you know what the CBO is? Congressional Budget Office. Do you know that’s government statistics? The same statistics you claim are always wrong. Also, notice which party is using those stats? The Republicans. They are using stats you say that are always skewed? BTW, NPR is not liberal (except in your mind) and these stats have gone viral in the far-right blogosphere but are not being widely quoted, except by the right wing.


So. I have put up. Now F off with your rude behavior.
Cry me a river. I'll get you some tissue.


I don't prove all of my points, because I don't have the time all day to sit there and look up gotchas. I have a life to lead. I have proven several of my points in this and other postings. I'm sorry I don't meet your standard of having 5 sources to back up that "is" is actually a word.
You have no points, just wild generalizations you make based on the latest conservative spew. You don’t know how to support your opinions with facts but you do have excuses, lot’s of them. It really only takes me a few minutes to prepare a response but then again, part of my job is working online doing research so I do know all the little tricks using Google and other sources.



oh. and PS. I PM'ed you because I did not think you wanted to get called out publicly, but following your instructions : You owe dog62 an apology. Your post was rude and personal, without him getting personal to you first. You just hate it when people disagree with you and you can't handle it when people think you are not perfect, hence your posts to dog and me. Grow up little girl the world doesn't revolve around you.
There is a little saying, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Listening to you whine about confrontation is almost amusing, as is your perpetual “victim” mode. I cut people slack in religious and political discussions because they are almost always, hot button topics. Shit happens . Besides, this is online. When I turn off the computer, these arguments cease to exist until I go back to that particular site.


And just a hint, one of the main reasons my ex is now an ex is because she had an attitude just like yours. She thinks her s don't stink. But she has no problem sitting on her fat ass all day using the kids child support money to barely squeak from one month to the next, instead of getting off her ass and getting a job. It is attitudes like hers and yours that have started the decline of this nation.
Good Grief. This does explain your misogyny though.


P.P.S. You can respond if you want, but this is my last response TO YOU on this thread and probably on any other.
Promise?

[æonpax]

I love this paragraph. <snip>

It doesn't take much to entertain you I see. Do you have any facts? Of course not. You ultra conservative types thrive on emotional rhetoric, not reality.

You didn't say much other than repeat the same talking points and nonsense I've heard from the looney right. Not one original thought from you. I realize that takes schooling beyond the 5th grade but I'm always hoping. You believe in the myths and lies perpetuated by the the ultra conservative right, without proof and on the flimsiest of evidence. You wear prejudice and ignorance like a badge of honor.

Recently, the GOP in Texas adopted a party platform rejecting the teaching of "Critical Thinking" skills. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html Apparently, many members of the right have adopted that that long time ago. Critical thinking is thinking that questions assumptions and is a way of deciding whether a claim is always true, sometimes true, partly true, or false

Like the person before you, you bring no facts or logic to this argument. You spout your ideology, your opinions and your half-truths as if they were fact, which they just are not. Your anecdotal soliloquy reeks of untempered and self-centered, Calvinism. You blather talking points as if it were reality. They are not. Your convoluted thinking shows a particular lack of the same "critical thinking' skills, the conservative right fears.

I care for my fellow humans to a point where I will sacrifice what I have, for them. Sacrifice; a word unknown to your narrow-minded ilk. I will continue to call out people who lie and distort the facts for greed and political gain, like the conservative right is doing.

Yes, there are people who abuse the system, but there are far more people who are in pain that are being denied adequate health care for lack of insurance. All you and your pathetic group see are abusers.

Unlike you, I value the quality of human life and do what I can, through our government, to see to it that the virtues you have forsaken; Charity, mercy and kindness are not forgotten. If you want to call it whining, so be it.

[darkeyes]

Oh wow. So many are in support of theft.

I am sorry, I may be bisexual, and that means I lay down with both, but I am not a thief.

Obamacare equals theft, plain and simple. It absolutely doesn't matter who is going to receive what benefit and how bad they need it. What matters is that someone is going to be violently forced to pay for it.

And when you violently take what is not yours, you can bring about any excuse that makes you feel great, you're still remain a thief.Hun..I call being taxed so my country's soldier boys can kill other countries soldier boys and civilians and we can bully lil poor countries weaker than ourselves and with whom my country's rich and powerful, their government skivvies and often even I disagree with, theft with menaces and almost as often murder.. just a lil affectation of mine.. not believing in violence and mayhem and bullying and talking about problems not imposing solutions.... on other hand, giving decent health care to all the people of a country I call altruism and compassion..and those who don't like it.. tough cheese... but u really should chill ya know.. ther will be plenty dosh around for American Insurers an' rich bastards to make ther killin' the way "Obamacare" is formatted... an' it will keep all ya premiums nice and high and ur medicine nice and expensive... unlike nice properly constituted National Health service.. imperfect but a bloody sight better than u have now and u will have in future.. but of course.. government has no business in ur business does it? Just business in other countries business..

Nev mind.. from tomoz I am in ur country.. will spread the good word and no doubt have a few differences of opinion with peeps who think like u...rather b considered thief than a bully and a murderin' sod ne day.. hav nice day..:rolleyes:

[falcondfw]

"rich bastards"

Fran,

I know we will never agree on politics. And that is fine. Most of the time you are respectful (we all get passionate every now and then) and state your case in a classy and dignified way.

However, your statement above is what I think lies at the heart of our differences.

I simply don't see a problem with becoming rich, as long as it is done legally. In fact, I encourage the drive, determination, and persistence that it takes. Doing it illegally is another matter and not something I approve of.

If you have a problem with someone working hard and making themselves rich, well, then I am sorry. I guess you believe in "From each, according to his ability, to each according to his need." I don't. I believe there should be safety nets, but except for that, I believe in "to each according to his willingness and ability to get up off his backside and work his butt off.".

And I hope you have a safe flight over and truly enjoy your time over here. Welcome.

[darkeyes]

"rich bastards"

Fran,

I know we will never agree on politics. And that is fine. Most of the time you are respectful (we all get passionate every now and then) and state your case in a classy and dignified way.

However, your statement above is what I think lies at the heart of our differences.

I simply don't see a problem with becoming rich, as long as it is done legally. In fact, I encourage the drive, determination, and persistence that it takes. Doing it illegally is another matter and not something I approve of.

If you have a problem with someone working hard and making themselves rich, well, then I am sorry. I guess you believe in "From each, according to his ability, to each according to his need." I don't. I believe there should be safety nets, but except for that, I believe in "to each according to his willingness and ability to get up off his backside and work his butt off.".

And I hope you have a safe flight over and truly enjoy your time over here. Welcome.
I have no problem with peeps working hard and making themselves wealthy.. I do have problems about how they do it the ruthlessness with which they stand on the toes of those who are less able to make a buck or 10.. the selfishness and reluctance to pay their dues to society, resentment at paying tax, and how arrogant they can be and their loathing of the lower classes being provided a decent life, and having society give them a helping hand and providing for them decent health care..

I dont say any of this out of ignorance entirely, Falcon babes.. I do have decent life and am pretty well off.. 2 ver good salaries help with that.. but I was also married for 4 years to a guy who was loaded.. land, big house, holiday homes, property he rented out, foreign trips wenever we wanted them, no cheap clothes, shoes, plenty of nice jewellery perfumerie etc etc.. horses, nice little boat on the Clyde and loadsa even wealthier posh nob many of whom were slimy "friends"... while much of how I feel is my upbringing by me mum and especially me dad.. I learned more about the attitudes of many, not all I grant you, but more than is good for any society, of the rich and powerful from that 4 years than even me dad even dreamed of in his worst nightmares.. and trust me.. for some time I played at my beliefs, and while I still held them, they became more and more superficial and I smacked ever more of hypocrisy...

I was sucked into a world of greed and parasitism I am now ashamed of ever having been a part... me x hubbie wasn't like that.. ver liberal.. very nice.. very generous... what u in the states would call old money.. but it is easy to become what we hate.. I found that out and when it ended... it took me a long time to wash off that stink.. me mother in law on other hand married me hubbie's dad who was the 1 with the money.. she came from relatively poor background and revelled in it.. she became 1 of the worst.. hated me cos I came from the "poor" (I didn't.. middle class girl, good school, middle class district of Edinburgh.. but poor..that's how she put it) and loved bullying, intimidating and treating like shite those who didn't have what she had married.. she btw was the daughter of a postman.. nowt 2 be shamed of.. but it wos summat she wud never talk about... 'cept to say that her dad was better than my dad cos my dad was "only the son of a coal miner". Fact that he had pulled himself up gotten professional qulifications because of his dad's sacrifices and was very successful didnt matter.. he was son of a coal miner, a socialist and that made me and peeps llike me scum and not good enough for her precious son...

God.. was I well out of it...

The trouble is with ur philosophy...the rich and powerful as a breed put barrier after barrier in the way of even the most able of the less well off from raising themselves up.. some manage despite those barriers.. more in the US than here but these barriers exist in the US too.. when married I met a few of such American people and the contempt they have for those who are their employees, those who have less than themselves, even those of "old money".. I got a glimpse of their greed and what they will do to keep down people like you and I... so I am not speaking entirely out of me arse by having no experience of such peeps.. I have seen and listened to them.. and I didn't like it one jot even as their bad smell was contaminating me and slowly turning me like them!

Why else in real terms have the richest 1% grabbed more of the national wealth in both our countries over the last 30 years and the poor have become poorer while the middle classes haven't advanced their share of the pot? Cos of the altruism of the rich and the sloth of every1 else? I think not somehow... I can say "rich bastards" with impunity.. Ive both lived among them and through me husband, was one of them...

And I wont enjoy the flight sorry 2 say.. I hate flying and it scares me silly!!! Kate and the kids luff it tho.. I will sit head in hands trembling cos of the one thing that really scares the shit out of me!! With a few lil cognacs to stop me creatin' a panic an potential disaster!!:yikes2: tee hee!!! But I am looking forward to it ta muchly... haven't seen me m8 in years and will b good 2 give 'er huggle and share time wiv 'er properly..

[kutag]

Thank God and the Labor party for Medicare here in Australia.
Fuck the health funds,put the money into Government run
Hospitals.

[darkeyes]

Thank God and the Labor party for Medicare here in Australia.
Fuck the health funds,put the money into Government run
Hospitals.
Huge kissie an huggle 2 u Kutag!!!!:tongue:

[falcondfw]

Fran,

I hope I caught you before you take off. There is, over here, something called dramamine. It is for motion sickness, if that is your problem. You should be able to get something similar. You should be able to get it at any Chemists shop. If not, I would suggest a good scotch on the rocks or two to relax your mind and body.

And I understand what you are saying and agree to a degree. Those who have the means to do so should give back out of the goodness of their heart. The other thing is that yes, there are some real scoundrels out there (Bernie Madhoff) who got rich the wrong way. Where we part company is that I believe there are far more doing it the right way than the number doing it the wrong way. You seem to believe the reverse. Those who do it the wrong way need to be punished severely.

As for why the top 1% keep getting richer it is simple math. If you have somebody invest 100,000 and they make 20%, they have just made 20,000. If you have somebody invest 1,000 and they make 20%, they have only made 200. That is why the rich get richer. It takes money to make money, unless your name is Hillary Clinton and you can have friends who give you information that makes $100,000 on a $2,000 investment in Cattle Futures (yes, she really did).

And yes, some of the rich do put up barriers for others to get rich, because they want to keep the power they have, and money is power. But again, those are the ones doing it wrong and they need to be prosecuted and those barriers overturned.

Do you know what insider trading is? Forgive me if you do, but for those who don't, it is when a friend, who is an officer in a company, gives you a tip that his company is about to do something noteworthy and send their stock through the roof. Based on this tip, you purchase 1000 shares of that company stock. The event happens, the price goes through the roof, you sell the stock, and make a huge profit. In the USA (and I imagine in many other countries) that is called insider trading and it is very illegal. You can get a HUGE fine and a LONG time in jail for it . . . unless you are a member of Congress. For congressmen and their aids, it is completely legal for them to do it. THAT is wrong. Congress has exempted themselves from the laws many of us citizens have to follow (including Obamacare). THAT needs to be stopped yesterday. If the law is good enough for us, it should be good enough for them.

Honestly, your ex sounds like a really good guy by the way you talk about him. I know it is none of my business, but I hope you will PM me sometime and tell me why it ended. Even though people disagree on things, you are a perfect example of disagreeing with respect. You always treat me fairly and honorably when we disagree. With that attitude and the way you describe him, I am surprised it ended.

[DuckiesDarling]

You know I'm glad that those of you from other countries are happy with your healthcare system, but Americans are not happy with what we have going on here. There are numerous problems all around from the not wanting government in every facet of our lives when we are proud of the freedoms we have enjoyed from that interference to the just outright partizan political standpoint.

Several people think they know what actually goes on in America as far as our benefit systems and ability to get help, but you really don't know. Not until you have been through it. Not until you have reached the point where you try to get help and are told you are just outside the income limits. This isn't new. It's been going on ever since there have been income limits. I can remember when I was a child and International Harvester went on strike, a place my dad had worked for 10 years, my mom was stay at home with three kids, brother was a tiny baby. We had moved to Elizabethtown to be near my mom's family and had just built a house on the property my parents still live now. My grandmother had deeded over 28 acres to my parents to build the house they would pay on for the next 30 years. Strike meant no income, unless you walked picket line and that was a check for $60 a week. So they went from $400 a week to $60 a week with no reduction in bills, the garden yielded enough we had green beans for supper one night, some of that $60 went in gas tank so he could get to Louisville to continue walking picket and finally they sucked down their pride and went to try and get some food stamps to help feed their children. They were told to sell the land. The only thing they had that was worth hanging on to for their future but they needed to sell it to satisfy the aid worker. They refused and we tightened our belts and I remember my parents going without eating to make sure the kids had enough. That is the reality people in America deal with daily.

They constantly struggle to maintain dignity in the face of people who just have to follow rigid limits. That's what they have been struggling for the past 10 years or so to come up with something better than our current system. Medicare has long been in the red as people live longer, what's the solution.. lol read Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" maybe. But for now we have more going out than we have going in but we have a refusal of some to omg raise taxes on the richer people cause someone might not vote for them, we have Warren Buffett stepping up and going hey.. tax me. It's not right my rate is less than my secretary. I have no problem with rich people, I hope to be one someday, lol, but I do want to have equal taxation as well as representation.

The medical industry has long been about money and less about the actual care of patients. In the Medicaid system, doctors who accept patients get a stipend each month on each patient on the books of their practice whether or not they have actually seen the patient. Yes, even if they haven't seen they patient. Then they get money when they do see the patient. See the problem? Yes, they pay less to the doctors than a private insurance company would for the same service but they also pay for services no other insurance company would.

This bill does some things right, it makes sense to not charge for preventative care with any copays and deductibles as more people would go get screened and checked and more lives would be saved if diseases were caught earlier. But a lot of insurance companies already offered this and it only affects those that have insurance now. Is it going to make it easier for people like me to obtain healthcare even with my severe prexisting condition? Yeah... but will it help me pay for the insurance each month? Or will it kick me into the bracket where I actually get help? From all I can find at this point, No. I will be fined if I don't get insurance by 2014.. big whoop I'll have it by December 2013 as I will qualify for Medicare Part B, they have already told me I get help with the premiums assuming I don't win the lottery betweeen now and then. But what about the many Americans who already make the choice to gamble and not have insurance, it's never been compulsory like car insurance and most get by without it. If an emergency crops up there are ERs and most hospitals have a program that will let you qualify for help on medical facility charges on a sliding scale, but doctors and radioligists will still need to be paid. A standard doctor bill for ER is around $250-300 even if they just come in and say hello. Standard for ER facility is anywhere from $500-$1200 depending on tests and anything else that went on. Any pills handed to you are charged at a high rate and if it is a pill you could normally get without a prescription.. like Tylenol.. yeah it's a huge charge that most insurance companies won't even consider as part of an inpatient stay at hospital.

Having worked for Anthem, I have more than a passing clue how the insurance system works here and how it interacts with Medicare and how secondary and tertiary payers are affecting the amount that Americans with insurance are are out of pocket. I also know how devestating recieving a bill in the mail when you have no insurance or your insurance has declined to pay for a myriad of reasons that leave you liable for the charges. Part of the bill that does something right keeps insurance companies from combing over your application for coverage in the hopes they can terminate insurance and not have to pay the bill. That part rocks, but it doesn't help again those that have No Insurance.

We aren't England or Australia or New Zealand or Canada and thank the Goddess for that, we are struggling to find a solution to healthcare that will be acceptable to all Americans and we are trying to do it with the eyes of the world upon us and offering their opinions about things they really have no clue about. This is America.. we live here we struggle to survive here and we will get through this and get people back to working. The unemployment rate hasn't dropped, it's just not counting the millions of Americans who no longer qualify for unemployment benefits so they don't get "tracked". Any number posted by anyone can be skewed to prove a certain point about things but it doesn't change the poverty level here, now does it... and it doesn't change the many many many who are now living below that limit and still trying to hang on to houses and families.

More and more people are turning to gardens even in the windowsill of apartments and houses without land so they can try to help just a bit on food costs. We are told everyday to eat healthier but the cost of healthy food is always higher. Know why so many children in America are becoming obese?? Hamburger $.99 Salad $4.99. That's why. Which would you choose if you had to feed your children? Not so easy when you look at it that way now is it?

So I understand both sides of the issue here as far as Americans go, I don't like the law but something is necessary. So yeah back to Shirley Jackson... maybe she had the right idea. But who do we include? The very young, the very old? The middle class and the rich or just the poor. Seems the poor are the only class that is actually increasing in size and it's not because they reproduce like rabbits, it's because the economy has reached flush the toilet mode.

[falcondfw]

DD,

WOW! Nice Post! I agree with almost everything you say in it.

I did not know about the stipend for unseen patients, but it does not surprise me. And yes, there are a lot of things in the healthcare system that need fixing. But this government takeover is not the way. As I have said before, this bill is not about healthcare. It is about control and who pays for everything. That is why they are forcing everyone to buy insurance. If they can force you to buy insurance today, based on the fact it is good for everybody, why can they not force you to buy broccoli tomorrow, because it is good for everybody?

What happened to your parents is similar to what happened to my mom and step-dad. She basically almost had to divorce him so he could get the assistance he needed from medicrap and SSDI (he had polio when he was younger and it caused all kinds of health problems later in life). Finally, an attorney took pity on them and helped them through the process and he got most of the help he needed through his later years.

As for Warren Buffoon, I used to respect him. Not anymore. He comes and says "Tax me more. Tax me more.". Meanwhile Berkshire Hathaway owed (they may have paid it by now) several years of back taxes and his lawyers are fighting the IRS on it. And I am not talking about disputed charges that were found in an audit. I am talking about regular quarterly income taxes. Talk about hypocrisy! And anyone who lives here knows that if you don't feel you have paid enough in taxes, you can simply write a check and mail it to Uncle Sam. They have no problems taking extra money. When he stops the BS, then I might regain respect for him, but I doubt it.

[gen11]

All I'll say is that you who think the "health care bill" is about health care fully deserve what you're going to get. The intent of all those 2000 pages, including the provision that allows the federal government direct access to all private bank accounts in the contry, including the right to withdraw funds; that authorizes a "civilian defense force" the size and power of the military (Third Reich Brownshirts?) and other almost-incomprehensible violations of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, is to "transform America" into a socialist nation.

I hope your beaks are nice and cozy-warm in Obama's nice sunny sand while your butts are sticking up in the coming windstorm of government takeover of all your fundimental rights.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

I hope I caught you before you take off. There is, over here, something called dramamine. It is for motion sickness, if that is your problem. You should be able to get something similar. You should be able to get it at any Chemists shop. If not, I would suggest a good scotch on the rocks or two to relax your mind and body.

And I understand what you are saying and agree to a degree. Those who have the means to do so should give back out of the goodness of their heart. The other thing is that yes, there are some real scoundrels out there (Bernie Madhoff) who got rich the wrong way. Where we part company is that I believe there are far more doing it the right way than the number doing it the wrong way. You seem to believe the reverse. Those who do it the wrong way need to be punished severely.

As for why the top 1% keep getting richer it is simple math. If you have somebody invest 100,000 and they make 20%, they have just made 20,000. If you have somebody invest 1,000 and they make 20%, they have only made 200. That is why the rich get richer. It takes money to make money, unless your name is Hillary Clinton and you can have friends who give you information that makes $100,000 on a $2,000 investment in Cattle Futures (yes, she really did).

And yes, some of the rich do put up barriers for others to get rich, because they want to keep the power they have, and money is power. But again, those are the ones doing it wrong and they need to be prosecuted and those barriers overturned.

Do you know what insider trading is? Forgive me if you do, but for those who don't, it is when a friend, who is an officer in a company, gives you a tip that his company is about to do something noteworthy and send their stock through the roof. Based on this tip, you purchase 1000 shares of that company stock. The event happens, the price goes through the roof, you sell the stock, and make a huge profit. In the USA (and I imagine in many other countries) that is called insider trading and it is very illegal. You can get a HUGE fine and a LONG time in jail for it . . . unless you are a member of Congress. For congressmen and their aids, it is completely legal for them to do it. THAT is wrong. Congress has exempted themselves from the laws many of us citizens have to follow (including Obamacare). THAT needs to be stopped yesterday. If the law is good enough for us, it should be good enough for them.

Honestly, your ex sounds like a really good guy by the way you talk about him. I know it is none of my business, but I hope you will PM me sometime and tell me why it ended. Even though people disagree on things, you are a perfect example of disagreeing with respect. You always treat me fairly and honorably when we disagree. With that attitude and the way you describe him, I am surprised it ended.
Am not going to get into big row 'bout it Falcon.. well I could but it's too near me hols.. maybe wen I get back.. an me hols r sacrosanct.. mite pop in from time 2 time but will b much 2 busy enjoyin' mesel so u will have 2 do wivout me for the most part.. but u we know how each other feels... just think how I feel is nearer the mark.. u want an argy bargy bout it u will have 2 wait till I get back in August!!!

As 2 why my marriage ended was down to me being a cow, selfishness, need, boredom, "smelling" a lot and a girl called Lynette about whom I blogged recently u may remember.. Brian is an angel.. luffly man I think the world of and wish I could have made him happy. Wasn't to be and I hate meself for it.. no need 2 say much more but have written of it in forums from time to time, so no need for a pm..... but without him in me life, I could theorise and rant and rave 'bout the rich, but would have no experience of ever having been.. I have so much more to thank him for but that in some ways is the most important thing.. still see him a lot btw and dine with him quite frequently.. was also invited to his wedding much to the chagrin of his mum... and he was at mine to Kate.. yes, I still love the bugger dearly and he me I think... which is nice:bigrin:..

[falcondfw]

Am not going to get into big row 'bout it Falcon.. well I could but it's too near me hols.. maybe wen I get back.. an me hols r sacrosanct.. mite pop in from time 2 time but will b much 2 busy enjoyin' mesel so u will have 2 do wivout me for the most part.. but u we know how each other feels... just think how I feel is nearer the mark.. u want an argy bargy bout it u will have 2 wait till I get back in August!!!

As 2 why my marriage ended was down to me being a cow, selfishness, need, boredom, "smelling" a lot and a girl called Lynette about whom I blogged recently u may remember.. Brian is an angel.. luffly man I think the world of and wish I could have made him happy. Wasn't to be and I hate meself for it.. no need 2 say much more but have written of it in forums from time to time, so no need for a pm..... but without him in me life, I could theorise and rant and rave 'bout the rich, but would have no experience of ever having been.. I have so much more to thank him for but that in some ways is the most important thing.. still see him a lot btw and dine with him quite frequently.. was also invited to his wedding much to the chagrin of his mum... and he was at mine to Kate.. yes, I still love the bugger dearly and he me I think... which is nice:bigrin:..

I don't want to "row" with you Fran. I think there is a lot we can agree on, as well as some disagreement, but all friendly like. Besides, you are right. Everyone should enjoy their vacation time.

And even if you don't enjoy the flight, the scotch might help it go easier. lol. Safe trip to you and all.

I am truly sorry about your marriage. Glad you two still remained friends, but don't beat yourself up for it. You made mistakes. We all do. Seems like you have learned pretty well from them and that is the most important thing.

I do hope you will pop in from time to time to tell us how vacation is going. Don't know where you will be, but I hope you get to do some sightseeing. There is a lot to see in the USA. Fun, as well as historical and cultural stuff to see and do.

Just curious, could you be coming to the US for vacation at this particular time because the Olympics start over there shortly and you want to be absolutely nowhere near that madhouse and the hordes of people? lol

[losangeles4all]

Hun..I call being taxed so my country's soldier boys can kill other countries soldier boys and civilians and we can bully lil poor countries weaker than ourselves and with whom my country's rich and powerful, their government skivvies and often even I disagree with, theft with menaces and almost as often murder.. just a lil affectation of mine.. not believing in violence and mayhem and bullying and talking about problems not imposing solutions.... on other hand, giving decent health care to all the people of a country I call altruism and compassion..and those who don't like it.. tough cheese... but u really should chill ya know.. ther will be plenty dosh around for American Insurers an' rich bastards to make ther killin' the way "Obamacare" is formatted... an' it will keep all ya premiums nice and high and ur medicine nice and expensive... unlike nice properly constituted National Health service.. imperfect but a bloody sight better than u have now and u will have in future.. but of course.. government has no business in ur business does it? Just business in other countries business..

Nev mind.. from tomoz I am in ur country.. will spread the good word and no doubt have a few differences of opinion with peeps who think like u...rather b considered thief than a bully and a murderin' sod ne day.. hav nice day..:rolleyes:

I don't understand your language, is this English? I am not a native speaker, but consider myself pretty fluent, - and yet, I don't understand your writing. "Sod ne day"? Are you Vietnamese? Can you put that in English?

Anyway, what does this have to do with murdering people in other countries? Do you think that there is some kind of "all or nothing" deal, where if you reject theft, then you must love murder? But, since you brought it up, no, I do not approve of any wars, nor of any other disgusting things you have brought up in your response. Is my position not logical?

NO to a theft, NO to a murder? Doesn't belong together, you think?

Ah, I think I might have an idea. You are thinking in terms of two political parties! D vs. R! Seriously? How old are you? That's right, that is the reason those two choices are offered, because once you for one of them, you're against another! And the way they were created was that each has some immoral propositions, how else could they get you to support unsupportable?

No, I am not supporting any party. Why does it even have to be about party?

I said, I don't approve of theft.
You said: "giving decent health care to all the people of a country I call altruism and compassion"
Sure. G I V I N G. Not violent extortion. It has to be voluntary.
Example: Someone attacks a woman, cuts her kidneys out, all to save his loved one.
According to your statement quoted above, this is altruism and compassion, since you seem to not make any difference between voluntary giving and violent extortion.

You see? Surely not what you meant, right?

[void()]

sod (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sod)is English slang meant as derogatory. ne is a text communication contraction for any. In effect then she is saying rather be accused of theft than murder, any day. Really not difficult to comprehend once you start. If you'd like I could really confuse you via speaking three different Punjabi dialects at once.

[darkeyes]

I don't understand your language, is this English? I am not a native speaker, but consider myself pretty fluent, - and yet, I don't understand your writing. "Sod ne day"? Are you Vietnamese? Can you put that in English?

Anyway, what does this have to do with murdering people in other countries? Do you think that there is some kind of "all or nothing" deal, where if you reject theft, then you must love murder? But, since you brought it up, no, I do not approve of any wars, nor of any other disgusting things you have brought up in your response. Is my position not logical?

NO to a theft, NO to a murder? Doesn't belong together, you think?

Ah, I think I might have an idea. You are thinking in terms of two political parties! D vs. R! Seriously? How old are you? That's right, that is the reason those two choices are offered, because once you for one of them, you're against another! And the way they were created was that each has some immoral propositions, how else could they get you to support unsupportable?

No, I am not supporting any party. Why does it even have to be about party?

I said, I don't approve of theft.
You said: "giving decent health care to all the people of a country I call altruism and compassion"
Sure. G I V I N G. Not violent extortion. It has to be voluntary.
Example: Someone attacks a woman, cuts her kidneys out, all to save his loved one.
According to your statement quoted above, this is altruism and compassion, since you seem to not make any difference between voluntary giving and violent extortion.

You see? Surely not what you meant, right?
It's easy when u think it through, hun.. my point? I like paying tax... for the right reasons.. reasons to do with the betterment of humankind.. I do not like paying tax for their killing and for the destruction of life.. I am a pacifist.. and paying tax for a health service for the good of all is both altruistic and fine thing.. I am no Christian but I suspect Christ would approve... paying tax for warfare is an evil I loathe because there are those who lust after power and to be bigger than the the next person and intimidate and bully them into their will.. there is no immoral purpose in creating a health system for the good of all.. possibly its operation and funding can be bad but not evil I think..there is certainly nothing inherently bad about the purpose..and if it is for the good of all then all must pay that can afford to through the taxation or such system as exists for the service supply.. it is for them that can't that we pay that little bit extra...at least where properly constituted health services exists.. who knows when we too will fall on hard times to need that service.. and if we fall on hard times we are more likely to need that service.. so it is insurance for us and our families too....there is a little good if anything in spending billions on the war machinery of our countries.. they are evil in intent and purpose.. I will gladly pay for the good of others, not for their destruction simply because my country's government and rich and powerful and media don't like their government, governmental and/or religious systems or them very much..

There is nothing violent or extortionate about paying for systems and services as decided by electorate or government.. they are expected to provide services or arrage for their provision.. these must be paid for.. we may not like it and disagree with it but we live in so called democratic systems and that's life.. I hate parts of my tax being put to a military purpose and quite a few other things, but that's the price we pay for living in the systems we do.. if u don't like it u try and do something about it.. that's what I do and not only by voting every few years either...

[falcondfw]

LosAngeles,

Fran is from Scotland. They speak English very well over there. Just a different kind of English. Because she is from a different country, when she throws in slang from her country and sms text abbreviations, it can be difficult for us to understand. If we do the same things, it is hard for her to understand sometimes too, I am sure.

But if we try hard enough, we can get through it and understand.

[darkeyes]

LosAngeles,

Fran is from Scotland. They speak English very well over there. Just a different kind of English. Because she is from a different country, when she throws in slang from her country and sms text abbreviations, it can be difficult for us to understand. If we do the same things, it is hard for her to understand sometimes too, I am sure.

But if we try hard enough, we can get through it and understand.
Who's a lil smart arse then, hey Falcon??;)

[losangeles4all]

Much better. I can understand what you saying now.

I guess, I have to agree, that if you accept that you must pay taxes if your government requires it, then you accept that your taxes directly fund the bombs.

I, on the other hand, do not accept that. And, I don't vote. Voting, is an immoral thing to do, if you think about it, especially, for a pacifist. And no, I am not a great moralist either, but, I understand few big, cornerstone good and bad "do"s and "don't"s.

Speaking of a pacifist, I doubt you're one. Because, a pacifist cannot advocate for violence. But you do. Even if that is a consequence of your acceptance of your taxes, in effect, you still do. Basically, you are consenting, that there be a violent jack boot at my door, if I don't pay my taxes. You do know that the tax compliance is enforced by violence, right? A pacifist, cannot consent to violence. A pacifist insists on voluntary action, and may-be a defense against an aggression, but many pacifists even go as far as insisting on non-defense.

The bombs, you do not like, I get it. But, the forceful payments to healthcare, you approve. You, personally, think that such healthcare is a great idea, and, you have your arguments to support your conclusion. And so, you gladly pay "a little extra" for such system to exist. Yet, you have no problem sending a jack-booted thug to shake-up those who have a different opinion. Some kind of pacifist, if you ask me.

It then becomes interesting, what is the ground for you not liking of the military meddling in foreign lands? If they do not comply "our ideas", which we think are great, then we should violently force them to comply, right? For instance, we would allow any of their people to be taken care in "our" hospitals. This great and passionate act on our part, already gives us the moral right to demand payments from all of them. Or, we have an idea that they all must sell their oil for our currencies only. We like this idea, and we have our arguments of why we think that the world would be better off this way. So, when Saddam Hussein refused to spend the national treasure of Iraq on earning US dollars, and demanded gold, the US had sent the soldiers to demand compliance. First time it happened, he couldn't find enough courage and backed out. The soldiers then let him live. The second time he did that, the US literally ripped his head off.

When Lybian Gadaffi decided that the interests of several African nations were different from the interests of US and UK bankers, he served as a major organizing force to bring those African nations to an agreement on their own currency, the gold Dinar. Him personally, would lose a great deal of power were that agreement actually implemented. Yet, he insisted. So, the US and UK bankers, being in a strong disagreement with his vision for the future of Africa not being enslaved by Anglo's fractional reserve banking, decided they have a moral right to demand compliance. They sent in "the patriots" and alas, ole Gaddaffi got raped with a dirty rusted pipe before he got shot.

If you like the idea of forcing other people into compliance with the ideas that you like, you shouldn't really have that much dislike of military action in foreign lands. It is all the same principle, really. I mean, think of it, yes, may-be Saddam and Gaddaffi did think that the ideas of US and UK bankers were bad, but what really mattered was that the US and UK bankers really believed that their ideas were great, and it was that (and your and mine taxes) which gave them the right (and the might) to force the compliance.

sed, tamen diversis, nos suffragium

[falcondfw]

Who's a lil smart arse then, hey Falcon??;)

Dear Fran,

I was merely trying to explain the situation to LA.:grouphug: :angel: <-- He says in a totally innocent voice.
Besides, we Scots (even part Scots) have to try to stick together and help each other out.
ok. yeah. There was a bit of a smart ass in the last sentence. And this surprises you how? :cutelaugh

[falcondfw]

Much better. I can understand what you saying now.

I guess, I have to agree, that if you accept that you must pay taxes if your government requires it, then you accept that your taxes directly fund the bombs.

I, on the other hand, do not accept that. And, I don't vote. Voting, is an immoral thing to do, if you think about it, especially, for a pacifist. And no, I am not a great moralist either, but, I understand few big, cornerstone good and bad "do"s and "don't"s.

Speaking of a pacifist, I doubt you're one. Because, a pacifist cannot advocate for violence. But you do. Even if that is a consequence of your acceptance of your taxes, in effect, you still do. Basically, you are consenting, that there be a violent jack boot at my door, if I don't pay my taxes. You do know that the tax compliance is enforced by violence, right? A pacifist, cannot consent to violence. A pacifist insists on voluntary action, and may-be a defense against an aggression, but many pacifists even go as far as insisting on non-defense.

The bombs, you do not like, I get it. But, the forceful payments to healthcare, you approve. You, personally, think that such healthcare is a great idea, and, you have your arguments to support your conclusion. And so, you gladly pay "a little extra" for such system to exist. Yet, you have no problem sending a jack-booted thug to shake-up those who have a different opinion. Some kind of pacifist, if you ask me.

It then becomes interesting, what is the ground for you not liking of the military meddling in foreign lands? If they do not comply "our ideas", which we think are great, then we should violently force them to comply, right? For instance, we would allow any of their people to be taken care in "our" hospitals. This great and passionate act on our part, already gives us the moral right to demand payments from all of them. Or, we have an idea that they all must sell their oil for our currencies only. We like this idea, and we have our arguments of why we think that the world would be better off this way. So, when Saddam Hussein refused to spend the national treasure of Iraq on earning US dollars, and demanded gold, the US had sent the soldiers to demand compliance. First time it happened, he couldn't find enough courage and backed out. The soldiers then let him live. The second time he did that, the US literally ripped his head off.

When Lybian Gadaffi decided that the interests of several African nations were different from the interests of US and UK bankers, he served as a major organizing force to bring those African nations to an agreement on their own currency, the gold Dinar. Him personally, would lose a great deal of power were that agreement actually implemented. Yet, he insisted. So, the US and UK bankers, being in a strong disagreement with his vision for the future of Africa not being enslaved by Anglo's fractional reserve banking, decided they have a moral right to demand compliance. They sent in "the patriots" and alas, ole Gaddaffi got raped with a dirty rusted pipe before he got shot.

If you like the idea of forcing other people into compliance with the ideas that you like, you shouldn't really have that much dislike of military action in foreign lands. It is all the same principle, really. I mean, think of it, yes, may-be Saddam and Gaddaffi did think that the ideas of US and UK bankers were bad, but what really mattered was that the US and UK bankers really believed that their ideas were great, and it was that (and your and mine taxes) which gave them the right (and the might) to force the compliance.

sed, tamen diversis, nos suffragium

Where do you get this stuff?
The first gulf war happened to free the people of Kuwait who Saddam had invaded illegally.
And the US and the UK have not invaded Libya militarily since WWII.

[losangeles4all]

Where do you get this stuff?
The first gulf war happened to free the people of Kuwait who Saddam had invaded illegally.
And the US and the UK have not invaded Libya militarily since WWII.


According to the TV, yes, you're correct. I simply look a little deeper.
As specifically pertains to Libya, I don't even know what the TV is saying. By that time, I have got long disappointed with the TV, and quit watching it.
I trust you, that we did not invade Libya, if they say so, on the TV. However, the CIA had been organizing, supporting, and leading the gangs that took down Gaddaffi.
Same in Syria, same in Egypt. I would be hard pressed to point out, where this was not the case, actually.

This may-be doesn't count to most people. I was just trying to point out to miss darkeyes, that as shocking as it must be, there is absolutely no difference between her justification for taxing the people to provide for healthcare, and banks waging the wars. In both cases, the attacking group has the idea, and believes that everyone else must be made to comply. As to whether the attacked group supports that idea, no consideration is given.

It is funny how people operate, if you look at it historically. The ubiquitously hated Nazis, too, had a great idea, and although disgusting to us, if one were to ask them, they were pretty sure (the majority) that it all was for the greater good.

I really shouldn't have posted under this topic, I think.

But, it makes me wonder, why is it that the people of minority, in our case, sexual minority, so readily support the majority cause. Haven't they learned that the might doesn't make right?

[falcondfw]

According to the TV, yes, you're correct. I simply look a little deeper.
As specifically pertains to Libya, I don't even know what the TV is saying. By that time, I have got long disappointed with the TV, and quit watching it.
I trust you, that we did not invade Libya, if they say so, on the TV. However, the CIA had been organizing, supporting, and leading the gangs that took down Gaddaffi.
Same in Syria, same in Egypt. I would be hard pressed to point out, where this was not the case, actually.

This may-be doesn't count to most people. I was just trying to point out to miss darkeyes, that as shocking as it must be, there is absolutely no difference between her justification for taxing the people to provide for healthcare, and banks waging the wars. In both cases, the attacking group has the idea, and believes that everyone else must be made to comply. As to whether the attacked group supports that idea, no consideration is given.

It is funny how people operate, if you look at it historically. The ubiquitously hated Nazis, too, had a great idea, and although disgusting to us, if one were to ask them, they were pretty sure (the majority) that it all was for the greater good.

I really shouldn't have posted under this topic, I think.

But, it makes me wonder, why is it that the people of minority, in our case, sexual minority, so readily support the majority cause. Haven't they learned that the might doesn't make right?

LA,

I don't even own a TV that works. I swear upon my life that is the truth. I don't usually even look at ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, or MSNBC on the net, unless I want to learn the liberal point of view for something.

I don't own a TV, because of the crap on TV and the fact I have 3 young, impressionable kids. I want to control what they watch. I don't want them watching things like "Real Housewives of Outer Space" (That's the next one). If they like a show and I approve of it, I will download it and we will watch together (They love Power Rangers and I approve. So I download it.).

I said we did not invade Libya militarily. Not that we did not invade Libya. I know for a fact there was a "human rights mission" in Egypt, led by the son of the Secretary of Commerce (or Labor. Not sure which.). What the hell was a son of a high ranking US government official doing in Tahir Square in the days leading up to the "Arab Spring"? C'mon. I did not fall of the turnip truck yesterday. Last week? maybe. But not yesterday.

I know our CIA and NSA stick their nose where they definitely don't belong and as a result, they are often wrong.

BUT. It was not like Bill Clinton and the aspirin factory in Sudan trying to distract from Monica Lewinsky's blue dress.

I honestly have not even heard any rumblings of CIA involvement in Syria. As the English say, that would be a "MAJOR cock up.". But i would not put it past those idiots.

As for the banks waging wars, i would have to see some proof first. Although the left has claimed Gulf War I was about oil, from all of those i know who were involved, it was about Kuwait. Good thing too. My cousin, at the time, was married to a member of the Al-Sabbah family (even though she was disowned by all her family for disobedience, ie not marrying who she was supposed to). She still cared about her family and friends, even though she could not talk to them.

The nazi ideas of the master race were accepted by the German people, because they were terrified to speak against it. Himmler's SS and Krystalnacht made sure of that.

And i disagree. You should have posted. The free exchange of ideas in a respectful manner is a wonderful thing and is totally encouraged by Drew (the owner of this web site.), obviously, as long as we stay within legal borders. lol. Don't want free discussion of illegal things.

Agreed, might does not make right. However, I feel the vast majority of Americans could care less what someone's sexuality is. It is a private matter that should remain behind private doors, of concern only to those immediately involved. I think the Michele Bachmann's and the Barack Obamas are in the vast, polarizing minority on these issues, on both sides. Just live and let live. If someone asks you and you are not interested, a polite "no thank you" should suffice. Whether the asker is straight, gay, bi, or made of green cheese.

[darkeyes]

Much better. I can understand what you saying now.

I guess, I have to agree, that if you accept that you must pay taxes if your government requires it, then you accept that your taxes directly fund the bombs.

I, on the other hand, do not accept that. And, I don't vote. Voting, is an immoral thing to do, if you think about it, especially, for a pacifist. And no, I am not a great moralist either, but, I understand few big, cornerstone good and bad "do"s and "don't"s.

Speaking of a pacifist, I doubt you're one. Because, a pacifist cannot advocate for violence. But you do. Even if that is a consequence of your acceptance of your taxes, in effect, you still do. Basically, you are consenting, that there be a violent jack boot at my door, if I don't pay my taxes. You do know that the tax compliance is enforced by violence, right? A pacifist, cannot consent to violence. A pacifist insists on voluntary action, and may-be a defense against an aggression, but many pacifists even go as far as insisting on non-defense.

The bombs, you do not like, I get it. But, the forceful payments to healthcare, you approve. You, personally, think that such healthcare is a great idea, and, you have your arguments to support your conclusion. And so, you gladly pay "a little extra" for such system to exist. Yet, you have no problem sending a jack-booted thug to shake-up those who have a different opinion. Some kind of pacifist, if you ask me.

It then becomes interesting, what is the ground for you not liking of the military meddling in foreign lands? If they do not comply "our ideas", which we think are great, then we should violently force them to comply, right? For instance, we would allow any of their people to be taken care in "our" hospitals. This great and passionate act on our part, already gives us the moral right to demand payments from all of them. Or, we have an idea that they all must sell their oil for our currencies only. We like this idea, and we have our arguments of why we think that the world would be better off this way. So, when Saddam Hussein refused to spend the national treasure of Iraq on earning US dollars, and demanded gold, the US had sent the soldiers to demand compliance. First time it happened, he couldn't find enough courage and backed out. The soldiers then let him live. The second time he did that, the US literally ripped his head off.

When Lybian Gadaffi decided that the interests of several African nations were different from the interests of US and UK bankers, he served as a major organizing force to bring those African nations to an agreement on their own currency, the gold Dinar. Him personally, would lose a great deal of power were that agreement actually implemented. Yet, he insisted. So, the US and UK bankers, being in a strong disagreement with his vision for the future of Africa not being enslaved by Anglo's fractional reserve banking, decided they have a moral right to demand compliance. They sent in "the patriots" and alas, ole Gaddaffi got raped with a dirty rusted pipe before he got shot.

If you like the idea of forcing other people into compliance with the ideas that you like, you shouldn't really have that much dislike of military action in foreign lands. It is all the same principle, really. I mean, think of it, yes, may-be Saddam and Gaddaffi did think that the ideas of US and UK bankers were bad, but what really mattered was that the US and UK bankers really believed that their ideas were great, and it was that (and your and mine taxes) which gave them the right (and the might) to force the compliance.

sed, tamen diversis, nos suffragiumLook babes..am off on me hols in less than an hour so this is likely to b the last post I make for some time.. we have an expression here.. several expressions.. talking gobblydegook and talking through ur arse... u do both and very badly too. Its ok.. we live in countries where it isn't against the law to do either badly or otherwise.. if u'd ever read anything I have ever written about anything of the issues u raise in the above confused morass u "argue" maybe u would understand better.. but I'm not sure u have the grasp or the comprehension to do that...

[1strider]

Fran, you are so right on... Falcon, you are so wrong it's scary!!

[falcondfw]

Rider,
Where and why am I wrong in what I have posted?

[IanBorthwick]

The Pharmaceutical lobby has an iron grip control of the US government, ergo, the US market and are sucking us dry.

Various studies have found that prescription drug prices are substantially higher in the United States than in other countries. GAO compared U.S. factory prices with those in Canada and found that manufacturers' prices to wholesalers for identical prescription drugs are typically much higher in the United States than in Canada. The price differences are largely attributable to actions taken by Canada's federal and provincial governments to restrain drug prices, not to any differences in manufacturers' costs .

Quoted for Truth.

Most of what Falcon and DD are saying is Faux News based rhetorical opinions fostered as facts and it is the most egregious sin cast on the American People. Opinion with nothing to back them up and it gnaws like a cur at my heel, but I'll not be tempted into combat with you over it.

Suffice to say that the cuts to Medicare are actually moving money from ONE system to the other and has NO effect on care. It does, however, remove a big MediGap system that didn't actually pay much or often. Then there is the fact that the only people whoa re going to be out in this new system were the people lobbying so damn hard, Big Pharma and the For Profit CEOs of these insurance companies who are now going to be limited in how much money they can devote from what they are paid to pad their pockets. Period. So they started a full court press of BS and not surprisingly, those of you locked in a Red State are screaming socialism and Obamacare is EVIL and LAZY, despite the record of Medicare being about a million times better than the For Profit BS we are having now.

Honestly, I'd love it if you actually read some of Joan's links rather than running a Coax cable to your brain with Rupert Murdock VideoDroming you.

Keep up the good work Fran, you might get some flack but I have your back here...just forgive me for being too tired at these same putrid arguments they raise to copy and paste links to debunk them.

[DuckiesDarling]

Quoted for Truth.

Most of what Falcon and DD are saying is Faux News based rhetorical opinions fostered as facts and it is the most egregious sin cast on the American People. Opinion with nothing to back them up and it gnaws like a cur at my heel, but I'll not be tempted into combat with you over it.

Suffice to say that the cuts to Medicare are actually moving money from ONE system to the other and has NO effect on care. It does, however, remove a big MediGap system that didn't actually pay much or often. Then there is the fact that the only people whoa re going to be out in this new system were the people lobbying so damn hard, Big Pharma and the For Profit CEOs of these insurance companies who are now going to be limited in how much money they can devote from what they are paid to pad their pockets. Period. So they started a full court press of BS and not surprisingly, those of you locked in a Red State are screaming socialism and Obamacare is EVIL and LAZY, despite the record of Medicare being about a million times better than the For Profit BS we are having now.

Honestly, I'd love it if you actually read some of Joan's links rather than running a Coax cable to your brain with Rupert Murdock VideoDroming you.

Keep up the good work Fran, you might get some flack but I have your back here...just forgive me for being too tired at these same putrid arguments they raise to copy and paste links to debunk them.

Nope, Ian, as a matter of fact I don't watch Fox News for a variety of reasons, prefer the cutie named Anderson Cooper, damn shame he's gay... but I am posting based on my current experiences of trying to gain help for my medical bills and my history of working for Federal Blue Cross and Blue Shield which was Administar the service that *gasp* deals with Medicare. Now please try to tell me where I made suppositions about anything I can't prove.

[Dog62]

I care for my fellow humans to a point where I will sacrifice what I have, for them. Hey, good for you. I like that. My cell phone bill is due tomorrow. It is $118.00. When can I expect your sacrifice to get here? I have an outstanding doctors bill also. Will you pay that for me too?
As long as we are on the subject, I would like you to suck my dick too. Is that a sacrifice you are prepared to make also?

[IanBorthwick]

...just forgive me for being too tired at these same putrid arguments they raise to copy and paste links to debunk them.


Quoting myself because I don't feel the need to repeat myself overmuch. DD, go back and cite your sources as I explain quite clearly, it's ALL opinion and no fact and you JUST confirmed what I said...


but I am posting based on my current experiences of trying to gain help for my medical bills and my history of working for Federal Blue Cross and Blue Shield which was Administar the service that *gasp* deals with Medicare. Now please try to tell me where I made suppositions about anything I can't prove.


So...waiting on your facts to back this up and how Medicare and Obamacare are the same thing as a matter of fact.

GASP!

[DuckiesDarling]

Quoting myself because I don't feel the need to repeat myself overmuch. DD, go back and cite your sources as I explain quite clearly, it's ALL opinion and no fact and you JUST confirmed what I said...

Medicare and Obamacare are not the same thing, Ian really. I know what I said regarding how Medicare works. I know for a fact that we have for the last 20 fucking years known we were running out of money and like a child procrastinating on homework waited til the night before to hand in a try to fix it. Baby Boomers came of age, less money going into pay checks from Social Security tax of 7.65% of your gross wage doesn't mean much when you have a generation that is no longer working and is indeed beginning to draw.

Now would you please state unequivocally what parts of anything I said that are incorrect even if it's just your opinion. Be specific now, if it's not to much to ask.


So...waiting on your facts to back this up and how Medicare and Obamacare are the same thing as a matter of fact.

GASP!

Medicare and Obamacare are not the same thing, Ian really. I know what I said regarding how Medicare works. I know for a fact that we have for the last 20 fucking years known we were running out of money and like a child procrastinating on homework waited til the night before to hand in a try to fix it. Baby Boomers came of age, less money going into pay checks from Social Security tax of 7.65% of your gross wage doesn't mean much when you have a generation that is no longer working and is indeed beginning to draw.

Now would you please state unequivocally what parts of anything I said that are incorrect even if it's just your opinion. Be specific now, if it's not to much to ask.

[falcondfw]

Quoting myself because I don't feel the need to repeat myself overmuch. DD, go back and cite your sources as I explain quite clearly, it's ALL opinion and no fact and you JUST confirmed what I said...

So...waiting on your facts to back this up and how Medicare and Obamacare are the same thing as a matter of fact.

GASP!

Ian,

I apologize up front, but my patience with this issue and left-wing ideologues is exhausted.

You are a true idiot and moron. I have read all 1990 pages of the bill as it was passed in HR3962 and I also have given links in many of my posts from various liberal media sources, including abcnews, to various summaries that support exactly the things I have said. I made a mistake with the 16,000 IRS agents by not checking my facts and I apologized and gave credit to those responsible for pointing out my error.

I am sorry you cannot see your way clear past your left-wing rote to believe the CBO numbers that keep exploding upwards for the cost of this monstrosity. We already borrow 40+ cents of every dollar we spend. Do you want to make it 50 cents? 60 cents? one dollar of every dollar? WE CAN'T FREAKIN AFFORD THIS DISASTER! Get you head out of the sand or out of Obama's ass.

If you cannot be bothered looking at the links I have posted, then what the hell is your right to post and demand references? Your laziness is not my problem. I have also read most of Joan's links, as evidenced by my posts. If this is not plain to you, go to the eye doctor for an exam. You and Joan seem to be the only ones who doubt the fact I have read her links.

Now, as Gordon Ramsey would say, PISS OFF!

[Cdasue]

Actually Falcon before you quote someone...get his name right....Gordon Ramsay...not Gordon Ramsey.

Also, I'm Canadian and while our system has its problems, I can honestly say if you need treatment right away, you get it. Sure you can go to the States and get treatment but you better be prepared for the costs.

[æonpax]

<snip/unsnip> I know for a fact that we have for the last 20 fucking years known we were running out of money and like a child procrastinating on homework waited til the night before to hand in a try to fix it. <snip>

40 years, actually. The US knew 40 years ago funding for Medicare was already in trouble

Bill Clinton tried Health Care reform and the conservative right squealed like stuffed pigs. The Republican/conservatives blocked all attempts at health care reform during the Clinton Administration.

This is not to say, the Democrats didn’t have a hand at sabotaging any HC reform. On February 6, 1974, Richard Nixon introduced the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Nixon's plan would have mandated employers to purchase health insurance for their employees, and provided a federal health plan, similar to Medicaid, that any American could join by paying on a sliding scale based on income. This was shot down by Ted Kennedy and the Democrats. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_health_care_reform_in_the_United_States

Jimmy Cater was faced with the same internal problems when he attempted to address this problem.

Two of the things the PPACA is doing to address Medicare reform;

Extend the life of the Trust Fund. Health insurance reform will extend the life of the Medicare Trust Fund by an additional four to five years – and delivery system reforms included in health insurance reform have the potential to keep the Trust Fund solvent even longer into the future.

Reduce wasteful spending. Health insurance reform will also reduce overpayments to private plans and clamp down on fraud and abuse to strengthen Medicare for all seniors. Coupled with improvements in the quality of care, expansion of the health care workforce, and reductions in out-of-pocket costs, health insurance reform will ensure that Medicare will continue to provide the high-quality, affordable coverage that America’s seniors deserve and expect. http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/medicare/index.html


Lastly, a budget battle is taking place right now in congress. To wit:

Congressional Democratic leaders made clear Monday that they had no interest in averting the bleak scenario if Republicans continued to refuse to soften their hard-line opposition to higher taxes on wealthier Americans. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-congress-outsourcing-20120717,0,7019352.story



Funding is available but is being blocked by the Republicans. Sadly, neither side will touch the military budget which is the single biggest waste of fraud and gross mismanagement. ( See F-22 costs nearing half a trillion dollars for a jet which is still grounded - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-cost.htm and http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2012/04/09/lies-damn-lies-and-pentagon-budget-numbers/

[void()]

40 years, actually. The US knew 40 years ago funding for Medicare was already in trouble.

I think it all has been in decline since 1808 (http://american-business.org/2443-depression-of-1808-1809.html), if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.

And yes, aware Hamilton's actions were a response to Jefferson's. Hamilton however was a federalist and collusive to centralized banking, debt. Frankly, I'm seeing a pattern.

Religion doles out guilt punishment to steer folks to altruism. Money becomes metaphoric form of guilt via debt. We are rallied in fear against the 'other', to suggest otherwise one is shamed as not one of 'us', yet another face of guilt.

Fuck your guilt people. I do not share it nor do I want to. Seems you use guilt in making wars, which in turn makes more guilt, more 'needs' which can sell 'solutions' for. Hey, point blank, fuck that!

[darkeyes]

I think it all has been in decline since 1808 (http://american-business.org/2443-depression-of-1808-1809.html), if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.

And yes, aware Hamilton's actions were a response to Jefferson's. Hamilton however was a federalist and collusive to centralized banking, debt. Frankly, I'm seeing a pattern.

Religion doles out guilt punishment to steer folks to altruism. Money becomes metaphoric form of guilt via debt. We are rallied in fear against the 'other', to suggest otherwise one is shamed as not one of 'us', yet another face of guilt.

Fuck your guilt people. I do not share it nor do I want to. Seems you use guilt in making wars, which in turn makes more guilt, more 'needs' which can sell 'solutions' for. Hey, point blank, fuck that!
U do talk such tosh at times Voidie... if people feel guilty for not feelin' altruistic then we haven't moved on one iota since humankind first developed sentience and I dont believe that for a second... such selfishness as I have I feel pangs of guilt and so I bloody well should... can we blame rellgion for those feelings? Debatable, cos many religions arent that altruistic and those that claim to be leave a lot to be desired in that score in practice if not in ethos, although usually in that too... such altruism that exists in religion is a very paltry thing indeed. I think u should put down Ayn Rand's dross and read summat worthwhile... the trouble we are in is because of the garbage she wrote and the tripe of others just like her...

Neways.. back 2 me hols.. muah!!!:love87:

[darkeyes]

My post above of course should read "If people don't feel guilty.." in the first line not "If people feel guilty..".. silly me.. :yikes2:

[elian]

OK, well my *basic* conception of "money" is that it is a medium for exchange. There is no way that I could rennovate the whole exterior of my house, but I do know how to fix computers. However, I may not know any contractors who need their computers fixed. So instead I fix some computers for my boss at work, he gives me some money I can then transfer to a construction contractor who is experienced in carpentry, etc.

The other thing money does of course is amplify power - I can donate some money to a cause I support, which allows them to keep the doors open one more month. A company, or alliance of companies can spend resources to make legislation more favorable toward the industry in which it practices.

The guilt/debt thing is actually seperate from the money - and some of us learn to be altruistic in spite of the guilt, not because of it.. Forgiveness is not just being altruistic, in a lot of cases it is actually in our own best interest. "In giving we receive" is not just pretty words - it is what enables a whole community of people to amplify an effort more than a single person alone.

Divorcing yourself from the guilt revolving around money, that's actually a really good idea. Work because you can contribute in a meaningful way - and even with your problems I think that is still possible in some capacity.

There IS an issue with overborrowing and the fact that the people in the transaction are so insulated from each other. Used to be that people just didn't buy something if they didn't have the savings to pay for it.

Trading debt notes is something I can sort of get my head around, the stock market on the other hand is a very strange mythical animal, it as if people are trading on the very POTENTIAL of ideas..

I'm not really posting about universal healthcare because I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that topic - I believe that ultimately it is a good thing to provide this for people, knowing that there are PLENTY of decent hard working people who at some point in their life will have lapsed or insufficient private coverage. if people DON'T buy into it they get fined - and that is your incentive for this not to just be a complete "freeloading" type of system.

I don't know how we'll pay for it, I don't know how we'll pay for the two wars that Bush/Cheney dragged us into either, I don't know how we'll pay for social security - if people would've kept their hands off the money it would've been fine but they had to be greedy.


I think it all has been in decline since 1808 (http://american-business.org/2443-depression-of-1808-1809.html), if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.

And yes, aware Hamilton's actions were a response to Jefferson's. Hamilton however was a federalist and collusive to centralized banking, debt. Frankly, I'm seeing a pattern.

Religion doles out guilt punishment to steer folks to altruism. Money becomes metaphoric form of guilt via debt. We are rallied in fear against the 'other', to suggest otherwise one is shamed as not one of 'us', yet another face of guilt.

Fuck your guilt people. I do not share it nor do I want to. Seems you use guilt in making wars, which in turn makes more guilt, more 'needs' which can sell 'solutions' for. Hey, point blank, fuck that!

[void()]

There IS an issue with over borrowing and the fact that the people in the transaction are so insulated from each other. Used to be that people just didn't buy something if they didn't have the savings to pay for it.

Trading debt notes is something I can sort of get my head around, the stock market on the other hand is a very strange mythical animal, it as if people are trading on the very POTENTIAL of ideas..

I'm not really posting about universal healthcare because I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that topic - I believe that ultimately it is a good thing to provide this for people, knowing that there are PLENTY of decent hard working people who at some point in their life will have lapsed or insufficient private coverage. if people DON'T buy into it they get fined - and that is your incentive for this not to just be a complete "freeloading" type of system.

I don't know how we'll pay for it, I don't know how we'll pay for the two wars that Bush/Cheney dragged us into either, I don't know how we'll pay for social security - if people would've kept their hands off the money it would've been fine but they had to be greedy.


I say this with as little disdain, condescending as able. Take a few moments and read what you wrote.


The connotation of guilt and negativity is rife through out what you have written. I am glad you can make sense of debt. I cannot.

All I see of debt is a whip and chains for some oppressive master/s. You know of C's educational background. The last she mentioned it to me, that debt stands at over $80,000. For what?

She has an associates degree from a private Christian ran college for liberal arts. She had considered a psychology, or anthropology major. After four years of the indoctrination there she realized that nothing was being taught. The system just continually rehashes the same lessons you get in high school or G.E.D..

Yes, I know fundamentals and basics are vital to learning. I also know that engaging new ideas, new research, new methods, and doing actual work are as well. She had the former only and not any of the later. She inquired if this was how things were supposed to be. The reply was a resounding yes and emphatic implication she would be better served not asking further questions.

Learning is supposed to involve asking questions. So, she spent $80,000 to learn it's better to not ask questions? I guess that could be used as an argument to support George Carlin's statement. The government gets exactly what it wants out of education, public or private. And my wife, bless her works minimum wage the past decade. We look forward to her employee stock ownership maturing, if the 'greedy' bastards don't find a loophole out of it.

To speak against debt is something we should be ashamed to do? Are you not the one whom tells me everyone deserves life, happiness? How can one be happy in chains, real or perceived? And education only serves my wife to keep her complacent, or is it diplomacy you call it? We're supposed to feel guilty for trying to live the same dream others have?



u should put down Ayn Rand's dross and read summat worthwhile... the trouble we are in is because of the garbage she wrote and the tripe of others just like her...


I should read Ursala K. Leguinn instead, or Rowlings, Atwood, Bach, Castanada, Verne, Wells, Poe, Shaw, Thomas, Anne Rice, Hemmet, Christie, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle?

She caused trouble? What did she do, think?

I can be altruistic out of a sense of humanitarianism. Even it seeks to indoctrinate one to altruism. Religion is but one tool I agree. We also have governments, social groups, media and so on.

I do not contend altruism is the whole of the evil. There is benefit inherent in caring for others. Please do not tempt conflating what I'm saying. I am saying altruism is again, a tool like religion, used to instill guilt upon people. I'm quite sure you've heard the phrase, religion is opium for the masses. What can you do with addicts? You can control them.

That is what I'm saying. I'm tired of this addiction. I thought, if I am not Christian why suffer a Christian's guilt? Then, I looked broader and deeper into the abyss, drinking. Most religions teach altruism. Satanism really does not seem to, but why bother with it? I mean honestly, if we're giving up an addiction, why not go cold turkey? I am sure Satanism has a means of guilt tucked away somewhere and if not, well, I'll stand corrected. See? Guilt, still there.

Beyond the above 'dross', what do you suggest I read. Once read about how newspaper guys were smuggled into U.S.S.R before it became that and started a revolution to achieve that as a result. Believe it was Marx and Lennon(sp), not the same as John Lennon. Also read about how a lawyer named Garrison made a full trial mockery out of something called the Warren Commission. It was interesting to see a connection between Mafioso and U.S. government be written out.

I think I probably read, or have read too much. It is as bad as five minutes of television now. First two minutes, got the story pegged, outlined. Next three minutes is glassy stare. Bug lights are more fun. Sticks in the eye, more so.

Come on over, dull this damnable mind. I grow weary of it's fruitless machinations and memories of places untraveled, sights unseen, depths unfathomed. I'll even knock out the orderlies, wardens. We can have real fun then, dress up Clementine the mule as Thatcher and hold a lolly parade with tea and rum.

Tired of these fucking chains.

N.B. In case it is not clear, which it likely is to those whom would understand, that last paragraph is pure fancy, sarcasm, snark as you will. Although, I'm sure it'd be nice to visit with darkeyes if she chose so to visit. Oddly enough, I'd like her to visit even if not sexually. Truth spoken, I think she's quite attractive and would not mind a sexual visit. My point though, I could enjoy a visit either with or without sex. Guess I'm freaky like that, which by now, I guess darkeyes is aware of that freakishness. Is now. ;)

[elian]

I was once out of debt, and then I went back nito it, before I retire I expect to be back out of it again and with any luck that is the only reason I will be able to survive at that point on retirement income. I probably won't have children so I expect to be alone and probably have to sell the house to afford long term medical care. So in the end sum game, I will probably net zero. I sure hope my contributions in this life have to do with more than money because if that is the only reason I am alive I would have failed miserably by the very end.

If I didn't have the ability to do that I suspect that I would be staying with extended family as so many other people have started to do again.

I didn't say that debt was not a problem, quite to the contrary. What I said was the guilt and debt are two seperate things. There still may be a few communes left in Oregon if you want to try it.. Institutionalized socialism apparently doesn't work that well either - what you need is one of those subsistance economies.

My comment about reserve notes - well the system is the way it is and i doubt I will be the one to bring it down or change it. I heard an interesting statement on the radio this evening - 99.2% of the financial transactions that occured in our economy over the last year involve speculation and trading, the remainder (0,8%) are capital investment. After hearing that I have to say to myself, no wonder why the future seems very bleak and the infrustrure around me is literally crumbling apart. So now you know what happened to the stimulus money that was given to the banks eh? It was supposed to go for investment in our economy..instead a lot of it went to bolster some bank's balance sheet.

A banker who called into the program had one word to describe the problem, "Greed" - on all fronts - finance, labor, industry .. and he said that although there has always been greed the difference in the last 20 years is that it has become "illegal greed" - lack of regulators, etc. are causing a huge problem.

[losangeles4all]

Look babes..am off on me hols in less than an hour so this is likely to b the last post I make for some time.. we have an expression here.. several expressions.. talking gobblydegook and talking through ur arse... u do both and very badly too. Its ok.. we live in countries where it isn't against the law to do either badly or otherwise.. if u'd ever read anything I have ever written about anything of the issues u raise in the above confused morass u "argue" maybe u would understand better.. but I'm not sure u have the grasp or the comprehension to do that...



It's just too bad I can not write in the same disabled manner you do, or I would certainly try to, just to "speaka ur langage". But, alas, I'll stick to English.

You're right, it is probably because I just don't have neither the grasp, nor the required comprehension.

[losangeles4all]

Hey, good for you. I like that. My cell phone bill is due tomorrow. It is $118.00. When can I expect your sacrifice to get here? I have an outstanding doctors bill also. Will you pay that for me too?
As long as we are on the subject, I would like you to suck my dick too. Is that a sacrifice you are prepared to make also? [/FONT][/SIZE]

Actually, no. I bet she won't help you. In fact, I bet she's aiming for your pocket!

These days, if you mean to harm someone, you'd say "I'd sacrifice for you". It's just what that means.

I have an emergency bill on my table right now, $1734.12. You think she would help me? I bet she won't!

ObamaCare is theft.

[elian]

Well that has been the problem with ALL of the legislation for the past 7 years hasn't it - if ObamaCare was actually put into effect maybe there WOULD be some relief from medical bills but people have been fighting tooth and nail against that and against nearly every other piece of legislation that has come up.. Is it any wonder that government seems ineffective?

Emergency care in this country sucks - when you call it an emergency there seems to be a nice surcharge for bypassing the system.,and half the time all I see people doing in the ER is just sitting around.

This is the "best" health care system? That seems strange to me because most of the people I've talked to lately are frustrated by it. Being the "best" does not mean that there's no room for improvement. Or maybe like so many other things here - the "best" healthcare goes to the people can afford the best., The only problem is that the definition of "best" is very subjective.. Kind of like the name of the pub that planned the American Revolution in Boston. Last time I checked it was nearly ALL of them.

As for the question of the value of a degree, it has gotten even worse in the last few years - so many "institutes" where you can obtain a "degree" with "guaranteed job placement" but all they are really interested in is parting you from your money..a very bad example of the free market economy at work. Is it the government's fault that all of these private businesses are profiting off of people?

If you feel guilt in your life to the point that it is disabling your ability to function then yes, that is a problem that needs to be addressed. True altruism comes out of a sense of compassion, not out of a sense of guilt. Greed seems to be the real problem, a heathy society requires both give AND take.

[void()]

Is it the government's fault that all of these private businesses are profiting off of people?


An argument that it is could be made, as it seems the elite may do as they desire. Been the same song for a long while. Rich get richer, poor keep on getting poor. I'm sure along the lines somewhere a lobbyist for these for profit education folks manages to grease the palm/s of a politician. Follow the money. Money we consider our god. It never lies.

Sorry if that is a jaded and cynical view. Just seen too much bullshit like this happen, keep happening. The whole system is tanked. Destroy it, build anew. People don't want to hear that, it's 'unamerican'. Can you hear me, or do I need to turn it up? _.!.. ..!._

"Howdy stupid, meet stupid." If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[æonpax]

Originally Posted by æonpax
40 years, actually. The US knew 40 years ago funding for Medicare was already in trouble.



I think it all has been in decline since 1808 (http://american-business.org/2443-depression-of-1808-1809.html), if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.
<snip>

`
Help me out here. In 1965, Congress created Medicare under Title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide health insurance to people age 65 and older, regardless of income or medical history. What does Alex and the 1808 depression have to do with this?

I can say that PPACA will slow down the growth rate of Medicare expenses from 8% to 5 to 6%, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report. http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/11-148_20100421.pdf Considering the millions of baby boomers that are joining Medicare, this results in savings of up to 123 billion dollars in 10 years, providing PPACA is not changed or eliminated.

Furthermore, the PPACA and the Reconciliation Act contain provisions designed to reduce Medicare program costs by approximately $390 billion over the next 10 years through adjustments in payments to certain types of providers, by equalizing payment rates between Medicare Advantage and fee-for-service Medicare, and by increasing efficiencies in the way that health services are paid for and delivered.

[elian]

Can you hear me, or do I need to turn it up?

These go to eleven. - Spinal Tap

[void()]

Help me out here. In 1965, Congress created Medicare under Title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide health insurance to people age 65 and older, regardless of income or medical history. What does Alex and the 1808 depression have to do with this?

Well, the 1808 depression was brought in part due to Hamilton in effect slamming Jefferson. Hamilton argued that private corporations are granted the same sovereign rights as people. He also instituted a drive for central federal banking, owned by a private corporation. The first two such banks were chartered via congress for twenty year periods only, as a need existed and the debt incurred was paid off quickly.

Hamilton's banking system changed that. It helped foster a need, which really did not exist, Jefferson was embargoing against Brittan and Hamilton justified the bank to offset losses for farmers, merchants. His bank was to exist indefinitely, charge the government more sophisticated compound interest. And since his bank was a private corporation, seen as a person, the government was limited as to what it could do effectually to curtail it. Similar to what we have now economically with the 1%.

That one percent can pretty well do as it pleases. They can cut social programs that benefit the welfare of the people, and it's all nice a legally pretty. They can steal, or rather buy elections and of course it's all on the up and up. We buy it as it's a system created to give us an illusion of choice. You can be Dem or Rep they tell us. You could be a third party if you wanted but face reality, a third party has no real power and won't have ever. No, we want scandalous, high treason chasing, double-speaking politicians who promise pies in the sky while wrenching the knife deeper into your back.

Hamilton's groundwork laid a foundation which allowed J.P. Morgan to buy government later on. And the Morgan family of bankers bed the English banking crown ensuring divide and conquer remains a mainstay tool of control. Morgan bought government via bailing it out financially and increasing its reliance on the federal reserve, Hamilton's little darling all grown up national bank.

If you cannot understand how money has been, is being, and will continue being weaponized then, something may be amiss. I think healthcare issues, farming issues, equality issues all demonstrate economic warfare as a concurrent theme. Most have origins and in my opinion, 1808's depression serves as a good toe hold starting place. It truly began before then I'm sure.

Apologies if I'm not citing facts. There's lots of documentation if you really dig through stuff. I'm stating opinion to state opinion and not debate. No point debating what is done. If having an opinion makes me an asshole, at least I'm honest enough to know my opinion likely stinks, same as most anyone else. You can share the opinion or not. Not here to win supporters, to cause a rally, just talking.

[void()]

These go to eleven. - Spinal Tap


I don't have enough middle fingers! - Marylin Manson



Jesus built my hot rod, said it was all about love. - Ministry


It's all Spinal Tap. - From a movie about Rush, possibly attributable to Neil Perl

*grin* We should really keep the genes of good drummers locked up in a cryogenic safe. Drummers it seems are prone to disasters, Spinal Tap went through at least six.

[elian]

If you cannot understand how money has been, is being, and will continue being weaponized then, something may be amiss. I think healthcare issues, farming issues, equality issues all demonstrate economic warfare as a concurrent theme. Most have origins and in my opinion, 1808's depression serves as a good toe hold starting place. It truly began before then I'm sure.


Well since, as I said before - money amplifies power I can very clearly understand how it is used to influence the world. I think it is a mistake to ONLY cite the 1% - as if they are the only ones who have control. Do you think the "1%" would have elected Obama?

Since now you have the Corporation as a person you also see the entities within them treating the survival of their business and its profitability as a matter of life and death. So many heavily capitalized businesses who are past their prime, as their cash cow product is dying what do they do? They don't innovate because it costs money, has high risk and is hard work, instead they LEGISLATE - protect all of their "interests" so that their cash cow from the glory days can go on and on.. I remember when this countrry put money into science and technological development but now the general populous is not interested in any of that "hard stuff" unless it means they can have some new device that makes it easier to think for them or watch their favoritie latest "reality" show a little easier.

For the decline of personal interaction I blame the walkman..because up until then you had to learn to interact and get along with other people on a personal level. Now here comes this gadget and for the first time you got to listen to "your own personal:" music...and it hasn't gotten much better since then. Hell in 2012 we pretty much have "your own personal" everything - marketers are happy to give it to us, but I think it makes our society worse off. People don't have to say hello to their neighbors, it's the government's job to make sure that everyone complies with the law. If I have a dispute with my neighbor I call the government and they take care of it. If my neighbor falls on hard times I don't have to worry about them because I know that the government has a safety net to protect them..thank goodness I can keep worrying only about myself and not what is happening to my neighbor.

I'm waiting for the day that people DO unplug the headphones and step back INTO reality instead of just watching it on TV.

The problem with business today is that everyone makes decisions in terms of the short term profit...and they have ever since the war started. This "short-term" thinking has pervaded almost every aspect of society. I don't want to write laws and policy governed by the need to make short term profit, or just surviving 'til tomorrow. I need policies that look at a very broad picture 3, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now. I'm sorry if there is some short term pain but we need to form a society that cares about the people it raises.

Come to think of it, "They don't innovate because it costs money, has high risk and is hard work" pretty much sums up most of the problem I see with everything these days.

[falcondfw]

"Come to think of it, "They don't innovate because it costs money, has high risk and is hard work" pretty much sums up most of the problem I see with everything these days."

I, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and many others totally disagree with this statement.

[elian]

Both Apple and Microsoft have very large legal departments that have no problem at all protecting their interests. Apple DID innovate at one time, but they are slowly moving away from an engineering based culture. As late as 2000 you were able to download the operating software for a Mac Plus from their web site. Now they are more interested in selling software as a service.

Microsoft, past the coding that Bill Gates put into his BASIC interpreter and a few early products, really haven't very effectively used the handful of innovations they were able to come up with on their own. Some of the stuff on research.microsoft.com is pretty neat, but they seem to have trouble actually integrating it into things. Most of their big technology has been acquired from other, smaller companies or other business relationships.

What Microsoft DOES have is really great corporate marketing. "Wait! Don't buy competitor product X!, we have that too - it's compatible with everything else we make and it's coming out in the next big verision of Windows!" is a line I have heard over and over again..meanwhile the small company that truly took a chance doesn't get the sale. They are big enough that they don't HAVE to innovate, they just buy any company they want..and the ones they don't want, they run into the ground.

Sorry for posting "off-topic". I don't have any problem with the "free-market" per se, except when it starts treating people's lives as just another market commodity. ..and since when is it a free market when you can attempt, and succeed at influencing the market with legislation? The problem with something like healthcare is if you were TRULY sick then without ANY legal or government obligation NO insurance company would cover you..except at a rate that is astronomical if that. Aren't we a big enough country to be able to do something about that?

[æonpax]

Well, the 1808 depression was brought in part due to Hamilton in effect slamming Jefferson. Hamilton argued that private corporations are granted the same sovereign rights as people. He also instituted a drive for central federal banking, owned by a private corporation. The first two such banks were chartered via congress for twenty year periods only, as a need existed and the debt incurred was paid off quickly.

Hamilton's banking system changed that. It helped foster a need, which really did not exist, Jefferson was embargoing against Brittan and Hamilton justified the bank to offset losses for farmers, merchants. His bank was to exist indefinitely, charge the government more sophisticated compound interest. And since his bank was a private corporation, seen as a person, the government was limited as to what it could do effectually to curtail it. Similar to what we have now economically with the 1%.
That one percent can pretty well do as it pleases. They can cut social programs that benefit the welfare of the people, and it's all nice a legally pretty. They can steal, or rather buy elections and of course it's all on the up and up. We buy it as it's a system created to give us an illusion of choice. You can be Dem or Rep they tell us. You could be a third party if you wanted but face reality, a third party has no real power and won't have ever. No, we want scandalous, high treason chasing, double-speaking politicians who promise pies in the sky while wrenching the knife deeper into your back.
Hamilton's groundwork laid a foundation which allowed J.P. Morgan to buy government later on. And the Morgan family of bankers bed the English banking crown ensuring divide and conquer remains a mainstay tool of control. Morgan bought government via bailing it out financially and increasing its reliance on the federal reserve, Hamilton's little darling all grown up national bank.
If you cannot understand how money has been, is being, and will continue being weaponized then, something may be amiss. I think healthcare issues, farming issues, equality issues all demonstrate economic warfare as a concurrent theme. Most have origins and in my opinion, 1808's depression serves as a good toe hold starting place. It truly began before then I'm sure.
Apologies if I'm not citing facts. There's lots of documentation if you really dig through stuff. I'm stating opinion to state opinion and not debate. No point debating what is done. If having an opinion makes me an asshole, at least I'm honest enough to know my opinion likely stinks, same as most anyone else. You can share the opinion or not. Not here to win supporters, to cause a rally, just talking.

`

Interesting perspective. You are, of course, referring to “The Fed.” In a manner of speaking, you hit the nail on the head. Ultimately, the Feds control over money, outside of US government oversight, can be linked to most, if not all, of our country’s financial downturns….and as always, the upper 1% are enriched and feel they are above the regulations of government and those who elected them, that are meant to curtail any activities which are not in US citizens best interest.

I am a member of the bourgeois, but am also extremely unconventional.




http://i.imgur.com/6e8Ek.jpg

[falcondfw]

Both Apple and Microsoft have very large legal departments that have no problem at all protecting their interests. Apple DID innovate at one time, but they are slowly moving away from an engineering based culture. As late as 2000 you were able to download the operating software for a Mac Plus from their web site. Now they are more interested in selling software as a service.

Microsoft, past the coding that Bill Gates put into his BASIC interpreter and a few early products, really haven't very effectively used the handful of innovations they were able to come up with on their own. Some of the stuff on research.microsoft.com is pretty neat, but they seem to have trouble actually integrating it into things. Most of their big technology has been acquired from other, smaller companies or other business relationships.

What Microsoft DOES have is really great corporate marketing. "Wait! Don't buy competitor product X!, we have that too - it's compatible with everything else we make and it's coming out in the next big verision of Windows!" is a line I have heard over and over again..meanwhile the small company that truly took a chance doesn't get the sale. They are big enough that they don't HAVE to innovate, they just buy any company they want..and the ones they don't want, they run into the ground.

Sorry for posting "off-topic". I don't have any problem with the "free-market" per se, except when it starts treating people's lives as just another market commodity. ..and since when is it a free market when you can attempt, and succeed at influencing the market with legislation? The problem with something like healthcare is if you were TRULY sick then without ANY legal or government obligation NO insurance company would cover you..except at a rate that is astronomical if that. Aren't we a big enough country to be able to do something about that?

Apple iPhone and iPad are not innovations?
Microsoft Kinect is not innovation?

Legal departments, when used properly, are a good thing. Do Microsoft and Apple always use their legal departments the right way? Hell no.
Marketing is important to garnering sales. And you are right, Microshaft has an incredible marketing department, but some of their more "strong-arm" tactics truly suck.

[void()]

`

Interesting perspective. You are, of course, referring to “The Fed.” In a manner of speaking, you hit the nail on the head. Ultimately, the Feds control over money, outside of US government oversight, can be linked to most, if not all, of our country’s financial downturns….and as always, the upper 1% are enriched and feel they are above the regulations of government and those who elected them, that are meant to curtail any activities which are not in US citizens best interest.

I am a member of the bourgeois, but am also extremely unconventional.



Got to love 'em. And yeah, the Federal Reserve Bank, a private corporation bank which does seem to be be protected legally is whom I was referring to. In God we trust. Like the image, reminds me of article I read about a Russian ponzy schemer whom did roughly the same as the Reserve. Similar occurred in China as well, in the form of daily communal lotteries for loans.

As for you being unconventional, my jury is still out, sweetheart. ;) Do you like rolling around in pine tar and broken glass?


"At this point we don't see a double dip recession. We see continued moderate growth." -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke (http://www.cnbc.com/id/48224583)

[elian]

Apple iPhone and iPad are not innovations?
Microsoft Kinect is not innovation?


At first glance the iPad and iPhone seem to be very innovative, but I don't think they are in the same way the Newton was, or the first powerbook. The problem with that is some of the innovations are so subtle I may not notice them - like the very broad aspect LCD display.

People had already done multitouch before apple came out with the iPhone and iPad. (I need to build me one of these .. http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/6428/#39682)

Apple's prowess was in making a cell phone and a tablet PC that works like a consumer appliance..it's not really any harder to use then a toaster - and some toasters look pretty snazzy too. The other thing they have is leverage - Steve Jobs said "If you want to sell our products, you will have a monthly data plan with no contract" and the cell phone carriers listened.

Kinect was bought from an Israeli company (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/19/kinect-how-it-works-from-the-company-behind-the-tech).

OK, so I'm sure that I'm waay off topic now, I'm not even sure that my original response was specifically targeted at any one company, but generally speaking.

[JP1986UM]

Speaking for the medical side of the equation:

Good luck getting a doctor when you show up with your Obamacare card. We won't be taking you. Well, 40% of all current doctors won't at least.

What does that mean? Hey, glad you asked!! Longer wait times for the few that will. Many are opting out of Medicare by the end of the year as we speak. Specialists all over are pointing that big assed middle finger at the political establishment in a salute to freedom and a lack of paperwork! Yes folks, good luck getting a doctor, because if you are in an area where few doctors will take you with that crappy reimbursement package, you'll be lucky to get that gnawing aching pain in your abdomen seen in time to wonder if its reflux, or you have gallbladder disease.

Sure you can spit up food all you want, sorry we can't see you for at least 4-5 months because all these companies dropped their HC plan to pay a less costly fine and shunted all their employees onto Obamacare! Ask for it by name!

Need that emergency surgery? Sure it will get done.

Need that elective surgery? Welcome to Canada!! We'll put you on a list so long it will make you want to go snow boarding in Saskatchawan! In July!

So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!

Thank you....the Obama Administration and Nancy Pelosi.

[falcondfw]

Speaking for the medical side of the equation:

Good luck getting a doctor when you show up with your Obamacare card. We won't be taking you. Well, 40% of all current doctors won't at least.

What does that mean? Hey, glad you asked!! Longer wait times for the few that will. Many are opting out of Medicare by the end of the year as we speak. Specialists all over are pointing that big assed middle finger at the political establishment in a salute to freedom and a lack of paperwork! Yes folks, good luck getting a doctor, because if you are in an area where few doctors will take you with that crappy reimbursement package, you'll be lucky to get that gnawing aching pain in your abdomen seen in time to wonder if its reflux, or you have gallbladder disease.

Sure you can spit up food all you want, sorry we can't see you for at least 4-5 months because all these companies dropped their HC plan to pay a less costly fine and shunted all their employees onto Obamacare! Ask for it by name!

Need that emergency surgery? Sure it will get done.

Need that elective surgery? Welcome to Canada!! We'll put you on a list so long it will make you want to go snow boarding in Saskatchawan! In July!

So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!

Thank you....the Obama Administration and Nancy Pelosi.

JP,
Fantastic post, except for one thing.
You forgot to thank Clueless Harry Reed and Brainless Joe Biden! How could you? lol

[æonpax]

Speaking for the medical side of the equation:
Good luck getting a doctor when you show up with your Obamacare card. We won't be taking you. Well, 40% of all current doctors won't at least.
What does that mean? Hey, glad you asked!! Longer wait times for the few that will. Many are opting out of Medicare by the end of the year as we speak. Specialists all over are pointing that big assed middle finger at the political establishment in a salute to freedom and a lack of paperwork! Yes folks, good luck getting a doctor, because if you are in an area where few doctors will take you with that crappy reimbursement package, you'll be lucky to get that gnawing aching pain in your abdomen seen in time to wonder if its reflux, or you have gallbladder disease.
Sure you can spit up food all you want, sorry we can't see you for at least 4-5 months because all these companies dropped their HC plan to pay a less costly fine and shunted all their employees onto Obamacare! Ask for it by name!
Need that emergency surgery? Sure it will get done.
Need that elective surgery? Welcome to Canada!! We'll put you on a list so long it will make you want to go snow boarding in Saskatchawan! In July!
So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!Thank you....the Obama Administration and Nancy Pelosi.


While this is your opinion which I will respect, unfortunately you choose not to back these opinions up with facts…which is your right. So please allow me to provide you with a few facts.


1) A quick summary of the PPACA benefits – http:// http://docs4patientcare.org/_literature_103337/PPACA_Summary

2) This report (and the link to Media Matters contained within) debunks an outrageously skewed study funded by a Tea-Party affiliated group called the Doctor and Patient Medical Association claiming that 40% of the US doctors will not be taking patients covered under the PPACA - http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/07/how-not-to-do-a-survey/

3) Canadians overwhelmingly approve of their own healthcare system; 90% of Canadians support public health care - http://www.medicare.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/nanos-poll.pdf

4) Here’s a great article written by a Republican; How I lost my fear of Universal Health Care - http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/how-i-lost-my-fear-of-universal-health.html

5) If you need accurate and factual information on the Canadian Health care system, go here, Canada Health Act Annual Report 2010-2011 - http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/pubs/cha-lcs/2011-cha-lcs-ar-ra/index-eng.php

[void()]

So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!

You know, we could borrow from the defense budget to help pay for healthcare and education. We could have done so all along. Having a standing military force is actually not mandated by the constitution. Our military should be there only when congress declares war. Oh wait, I forgot presidents of late having used military for illegal actions, conflicts, and ultimately wars.



I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


But honestly, Canada does not appear bankrupt. Even though I swore the above, I realize an expression rings out. Its an expression patriots hear a lot. "America, love it or leave it." I do love America, or did. It has now become corrupted and can no longer live to the great dream it once did. It is not the fault of the people. The people were mislead, robbed and denied power. Dare I say the people were even brainwashed? Jingoism can do that.

So, as my wife says she is serious about November, we're planning on leaving America. I do intend to officially renounce. If I'm not here, why be bidden to the laws and taxes of here? The wife does not know about renouncing yet. We loved America. We cannot fight, will not fight to simply live and be happy any longer. I been fighting since five and nothing for it. Time to take my marbles and make a new home.