Dealing With Transition in Schools:Teacher Suicide

[darkeyes]

Recently a primary school teacher in Accrington, England took her own life after transitioning partly due to undue pressure placed on her by the press, notably the Daily Mail. Just how do teachers who undergo gender re-assignment deal with this and how should schools? The Head Teacher took action which was understanding and which seemed to her appropriate but the leaking of her Newsletter to the press created a storm which appears to have contributed to her suicide. The Daily Mail has complained about the storm of abuse it received on twitter and absolves itself of responsibility yet it was the Daily Mail which apparently refused to accept messages of support for the teacher from supportive parents and continued with its campaign. I do not place all the responsibility onto the press or even the Mail but it must have more than played its part and the part played by hostile parents and possibly teaching colleagues must come into question. Someone leaked the letter for a start.

It can't be an easy thing for a school to deal with sympathetically and it certainly can't be an easy thing for man or woman concerned, and it isn't made any easier when a respected journalist writes in a very large selling national daily newspaper that the teacher concerned is not only in the wrong body but the wrong job. This is the 21st century and we are supposed to live in caring and compassionate societies and yet when we learn of this kind of hounding, it brings home just how far we have to go.

Most schools in this country deal with a teacher's sexuality issues reasonably compassionately but there are always exceptions... religious schools, paid for by the state are a glaring example, for much discrimination is institutionalised and legal, yet here was one which tried to do its bit to ease a Transwoman's change in her profession and job... which, if not strictly a sexuality issue, it is one that should be close and dear to all of our hearts... and they are not allowed to by a campaign of vilification which has no place in a modern progressive society.

RIP Lucy Meadows.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/22/lucy-meadows-press-harassment

[DuckiesDarling]

Fran, that is such a sad story. It appears the school tried to do the right thing and be supportive but someone had to go off the deep end about it. I do wish people would understand that there are real medical reasons for transgendering, it's not a psychosis or a deviant behaviour. My heartfelt condolences to Lucy's family and to the students and families affected by this tragedy.

[tenni]

I think that it is very tragic that this happened. The narrow belief about the delicacy of the innocence of children is a stereotype where heterosexual normative perspectives will still prevail. “What about the children” mantra is really a veil of hypocracy where prejudice/bigotry prevails. The children will mirror the attitudes of their elders. There is clearly a heteronormative morality hiding behind the “what about the children” concerns. There is an expectation that teachers live a puritanical life has long existed in society. Female teachers were expected to quit their jobs if their bodies began to show signs of pregnancy regardless of their maritial status.


I don’t know how long a transperson transitions but I do wonder if it might have been better for the school system for initial transitioning from a male name to a female name and gender appropriate clothing etc. happen during a school break. The teacher may be sent to a new school with her new name and female gender clothing. I can see trans advocates arguing against the trans teacher being sent to a different school though. The teacher's emotional needs should outweigh activists' demands. What is best for the teacher should rule. That way the head would not have to write a letter explaining Mr X new name and female clothing change. Female teachers who marry and decide to change their last name usually do the name change when a new school year begins and not in the middle of the school year.

Some might argue that is placing transitioning gender identity as wrong but it might help a society that is still struggling with attitudes. Women no longer are expected to quit teaching when signs of pregnancy begin but that is because the society has shifted its attitude by now. Rights are generally acknowledged with pregnancy and work but not gender reassignment.

[darkeyes]

I think that it is very tragic that this happened. The narrow belief about the delicacy of the innocence of children is a stereotype where heterosexual normative perspectives will still prevail. “What about the children” mantra is really a veil of hypocracy where prejudice/bigotry prevails. The children will mirror the attitudes of their elders. There is clearly a heteronormative morality hiding behind the “what about the children” concerns. There is an expectation that teachers live a puritanical life has long existed in society.


I don’t know how long a transperson transitions but I do wonder if it might have been better for the initial transitioning from a male name to a female name and gender appropriate clothing etc. happen during a school break and the teacher be sent to a new school with her new name and female gender clothing. That way the head would not have to write a letter explaining Mr X new name and female clothing change.

There was a time when female teachers were expected to quit their jobs when they began to show signs that they were pregnant for the innocence of the children mantra. Clearly, the education system and society is not ready and never will be ready to stop using the "for the innocence of the children" mantra to maintain a status quo of heteronormative society moral values.
Children are enormously resilient, and we do them an injustice if we try to completely shelter them from the realities of the world. This is especially true of young children who are incredibly adaptable.. it is older children whose attitudes and beliefs are much more set who are less adaptable, but even they can be reasoned with and made to understand if time and patience is shown to them, and the issues explained.

Our own daughter spent her early years in a family with a mum and dad and an elder sister. She had to deal with the change from a sister with bf's to a sister who had a gf.. her parents explained to her what it all meant more than did we. There was no prejudice and no anger whatsoever.. it was to her just a part of life which took her time to understand yet understand she did.. she also had to cope with the death of her mother, and the revelation that her sister was in fact her natural mother.. her dad, Kate and I took time to explain it and her confusion slowly cleared and she understood very well. She knew girls and women had babies which were adopted by adults who became loving parents already (I know. often they are anything but) and that many women had children who were unmarried and surrendered their child for adoption and many of the reasons for doing so... it was a short step to explain to her that her sister and her parents were just such people.. she soon had to go through the loss of her father which in some ways for her was the most confusing thing of all.. yet with time, patience, love and explanation she understood what it all meant. She understood bisexuality and homosexulity by the time she was 8 better than many adults.. she understood because we helped her understand that her sister now mother and I had different sexualities.. she understood all the rigmarole and the reasons why her mother and I adopted her. She has had a lot to understand, and a lot of changes in her short life... she understands about her mothers addiction, why she was adopted by Kate's parents, why her natural father is not in her life, why Kate and I married and why because we like girls does necessarily mean she has to or will..

We have tried, as best we can to prepare our kids for their lives ahead.. it isn't easy and it takes time and patience.. we talk to them and encourage them to talk to us about anything which concerns them. I think it is paying dividends because we have 2 kids who are well balanced and understand as far as they can given the difference in age and maturity between them, but even the younger child less than half the age of the elder, understands partially as well as she can considering her age and knows that some people feel themselves trapped in the body of a gender which they believe is not theirs and that they undergo immense suffering often in transition to become who they feel they truly are. She is 5... she knows and understands as well as she is able because we have taken the time and trouble to discuss it with her... she knows and understands as well as she can her mother's sexuality and mine are not the same.. and that her elder sister's is different still... yes, tenni.. kids are incredibly adaptable and they can understand much more than we often think at a very young age.. u are right.. they are products of our own prejudices or our own lack of them... they may not understand it fully.. but that comes with time... but then again.. do we ever understand anything fully no matter how much time we have been on this earth?

In England, with an increasing loosening and even ending of local authority control over schools, and schools having more authority to hire and fire, it is becoming more difficult just to move a teacher from one school to another.. in many ways that, in England at least, is becoming a thing of the past... I cannot say about the school in question but it is quite possible given the changes in school status in England that this was not an option. But teachers south of the border will know that better than I.

[tenni]

The resiliency of children can be good but it depends on how issues are dealt with. All children are not resilient as others. It is the adults who were making statements about why the transwoman should not be in her classroom that I was addressing. You have taken great steps in your own family structure because of your own beliefs and sexualities. The issue (right or wrong) being taken by the reporter was about other children and yes their parents where such an "education" was lacking. I suspect that the person who informed the media was strongly opposed to the transwoman teacher. Sending home a letter only works in certain situations. The School Board /district was inadequately prepared for a transwoman teacher in the classroom. I suspect procedures will be developed to prevent repeats of such tragedies.

How are two married (to others) primary teachers who end up in an affair at the same school dealt with? Over here, they use to be move one of the slutty teachers..lol (part kid'n). Usually the male teacher. I know of situations where this happened extremely discreeting and the pupils never knew ..nor the spouses. I suspect that if "they" want to move a teacher, teachers may still be discreetly moved if deemed to be in the "best interest of the pupils". Funny, how despite the Board's attempt that word got out to other staff..lol Oh, the gossip mill lives on! ( I recall that the two teachers were caught fek'n in the stock room or something..lol)

[darkeyes]

What u say is true.. children, like adults all have a different degree of resilence as they do in everything else.. and each child, like each adult should be treated dfferently, but always sensitively. I do not believe however that changes my fundamental point.. that children can, when treated with respect and care, deal with the worst of disruptions and changes, the most shocking revelations in their lives when given the proper support and guidance.

I have no doubt that a parent or a teacher or member of staff, possibly none of those or even all, but someone with an axe to grind who got sight of the newsletter and wished wished Lucy Meadows ill started the ball rolling out of sheer bigotry. It is why I asked the question.. how do we deal with such a situation? If a teacher can be moved all well and good, but should we really be expecting that and insist on it? Where does that leave us bearing in mind our belief in no discrimination, and dealing with everyone with compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance on an equal basis? If I had been outed at work would I have had to move job and school simply because a few bigots don't like lesbians? Should I face vilification in the press and doubts cast on my suitability for my vocation simply because of what I am? Assuming that we are opposed to such crap being heaped upon a person for their gender, sexuality, ethnicity or anything else, are u seriously saying that people should be moved out and the problem handed to someone else? Because that is the reality of what u say.. and in respect of the case in question for lesbian read transwoman...

It isn't quite the same as 2 people who conduct an affair at work and get rumbled... although each case should be taken on its merits even then and dealt with accordingly. And in my experience they generally are although not always. Many things need taken into account before any line manager moves (or dismisses) a person in the event on an affair.The most common reaction? Turning the proverbial blind eye... and acting only if and when it becomes necessary if, say, a spouse gets wind of it and creates.. in schools, especially private schools and stand alone public schools which are outside the control of a local authority, moving a member of staff isn't always possible, and in England less so than in Scotland because of the great changes which are on going in the former which are removing ever greater numbers of publicly funded schools away from LA control.

[tenni]

I think dark m luffly that you will agree that the process should be for what is best first for the transitioning person. Second, but often I suspect it would be placed first the overall impact on the pupils. Even when a woman marries and changes her name, the young children revert back to habit and call her by her former name. They catch themselves doing it sometimes...not all the times nor all children. So they are not that resilient...lol or past relationships easily adapted. I have a friend whose sibling transitions from female to male. Even when they are trying they can slip and call the sibling she instead of he. Habits are hard to change.

The complex question is how should transitioning be dealt with if the person decides to stay in the same school. They may feel that they are being advocate for their rights and then can be overwhelmed such as Lucy was. I suspect that she never considered such a strong negative publicity reaction. At that point, she would not be able to function as a teacher in that school. Some policies need to be developed both for the transitioning teacher and the pupils. Is there such a policy in your school? (doubt it).

In your own sexuality situation, there probably are policies for gay lesbian students ..hopefully for teachers as well.

Idealism is one thing. Preventing such tragedies is far more important in my view.

As to the two fek'n teachers in the stockroom, who do you think was supervising their students?...lol yep..no one and they were primary students. They were lucky that they were not fired.

[curious married m]

LOL between you and tenni, my brain gets tired trying to keep up, but ya lil tart know you and CK are special to me and have my love and desire to............ops NVM
And I know you have done, what we as parents do for our kids, which is what we need to in order to help them understand this fucked up world.
:love::tongue::):wiggle2:

[transcendMental]

I think that it is very tragic that this happened. The narrow belief about the delicacy of the innocence of children is a stereotype where heterosexual normative perspectives will still prevail. “What about the children” mantra is really a veil of hypocracy where prejudice/bigotry prevails. The children will mirror the attitudes of their elders. There is clearly a heteronormative morality hiding behind the “what about the children” concerns. There is an expectation that teachers live a puritanical life has long existed in society. Female teachers were expected to quit their jobs if their bodies began to show signs of pregnancy regardless of their maritial status.


I don’t know how long a transperson transitions but I do wonder if it might have been better for the school system for initial transitioning from a male name to a female name and gender appropriate clothing etc. happen during a school break. The teacher may be sent to a new school with her new name and female gender clothing. I can see trans advocates arguing against the trans teacher being sent to a different school though. The teacher's emotional needs should outweigh activists' demands. What is best for the teacher should rule. That way the head would not have to write a letter explaining Mr X new name and female clothing change. Female teachers who marry and decide to change their last name usually do the name change when a new school year begins and not in the middle of the school year.

Some might argue that is placing transitioning gender identity as wrong but it might help a society that is still struggling with attitudes. Women no longer are expected to quit teaching when signs of pregnancy begin but that is because the society has shifted its attitude by now. Rights are generally acknowledged with pregnancy and work but not gender reassignment.

It sounded to me like the problem wasn't transitioning at the workplace - it was the press's insistence on covering it ad nauseum.

I don't think it sensible to have a policy on whether a transperson stays at the same school or gets moved around, nor do I think there can or should be policy mandating when they must transition. I do think that every transperson who transitions needs to be counselled to think carefully about these issues. If they think it's best to move to a different school, that should be supported, if possible. If they think it best to stay, that should be supported as well. I certainly found it much more comfortable to transition over the summer, so as to have a more clean break when the new school year started. But each transperson has their own sensibilities, needs, and preferences. The Standards of Care generally to provide for counselling around all of these areas, so that's good. But the decisions should be made collaboratively between the school system and the transperson. The school simply isn't in a position to know by itself what is best for any given transperson.

But I don't think any change in the conditions of Lucy's transition would have changed much here. Any time someone transitions, but especially when the person works closely with children, it is potentially interesting to the press. It makes story, since we associate men in women's clothing with perverts and pedophiles. It's ignorance, but the press preys on it to sell stories.

tm

[BJHouston]

This is sad and may she/he rest in peace but in the end it was her/his choice to end their own life.

[tenni]

TM
I agree with almost everything that you wrote.

"The school simply isn't in a position to know by itself what is best for any given transperson.'

There are two variables whatever is going on: an employee and the students. If a teacher has cancer and needs to take time off work, the position may be kept open for a certain amount of time. (usually to the end of the year). A lot of sensitivity is exercised because some staff identify with a community and vice versa. I knew a teacher who had been in one school for more than 20 years and was loved intensely by the community. She came down with cancer at the end of one school year and her room was kept as it had been left. A teacher was brought in and taught for most of the year. At the end of the next year there would have had to be a decision. Sadly, the teacher died and the decision was taken out of the admin hands.

The same factors should have been and may have been dealt with this teacher who was transitioning. Bottom line the needs of the student do over rule then needs of the staff person. Fortunately, both are usually able to be met. The school may not know what is best for the transperson but what is best for the transperson may not over ride the needs of the students. I can not really see why a transperson would want to stay in a school where they were known by a different gender though. It would be so less stressful. Maybe, Lucy had great emotional attachment to that school community? We don't know why she chose to stay.

[transcendMental]

TM
I agree with almost everything that you wrote.

"The school simply isn't in a position to know by itself what is best for any given transperson.'

There are two variables whatever is going on: an employee and the students. If a teacher has cancer and needs to take time off work, the position may be kept open for a certain amount of time. (usually to the end of the year). A lot of sensitivity is exercised because some staff identify with a community and vice versa. I knew a teacher who had been in one school for more than 20 years and was loved intensely by the community. She came down with cancer at the end of one school year and her room was kept as it had been left. A teacher was brought in and taught for most of the year. At the end of the next year there would have had to be a decision. Sadly, the teacher died and the decision was taken out of the admin hands.

The same factors should have been and may have been dealt with this teacher who was transitioning. Bottom line the needs of the student do over rule then needs of the staff person. Fortunately, both are usually able to be met. The school may not know what is best for the transperson but what is best for the transperson may not over ride the needs of the students. I can not really see why a transperson would want to stay in a school where they were known by a different gender though. It would be so less stressful. Maybe, Lucy had great emotional attachment to that school community? We don't know why she chose to stay.

The line of mine you underlined was only a response to your


I think dark m luffly that you will agree that the process should be for what is best first for the transitioning person.

Of course, the students should be considered as well. I said the decision should be made collaboratively. But I think you might have a harder time than you think arguing effectively that it's in the best interest of the children to move their teacher under those circumstances, as long as the school still thinks the teacher is still fit to teach anywhere. You also have to consider the welfare of the children the teacher would be moved to. Newly transitioned transpersons aren't at their best for passing. I think it would be much easier on students who were used to and respected their teacher to have that teacher transition than it would be for students to suddenly get a new teacher whose gender, presentation, and possibly comfort, is less than clear, and have that teacher have to establish a new relationship with that class.

[darkeyes]

LOL between you and tenni, my brain gets tired trying to keep up, but ya lil tart know you and CK are special to me and have my love and desire to............ops NVM
And I know you have done, what we as parents do for our kids, which is what we need to in order to help them understand this fucked up world.
:love::tongue::):wiggle2:
Awwwww Curio.. daft ole bugger... still hankering for wotya can't have... ya cudnt afford it for a start:tongue:!!! Ur spesh 2 me an all, lummox.. but we do what we have to... never quite realised how hard or how much fun it would be this parenting lark... it's what we are here for isn't it? To help them understand the world so they van make the best stab at life that they can... the lil buggers keep teaching me things, and I have long since lost any illusion that raising kids is a one way street..:bigrin::kiss:

[tenni]

Post 12
Yes, TM, it can be complicated and almost a chicken and egg type of decision. The article states that she had been coming to work as female for three months( January?) it seems that she was doing this mid year. I think that is not a good time for the students or her to change. It would have been better at the beginning of the new school year and after summer(or whatever months..6 weeks the Brits have) I suspect in the policy certainly to be written, that it will be delicately "arranged" that transitions happen after a break of some kind and more than not at the beginning of a new school year.

[darkeyes]

Why would a transperson not wish to remain in a job they know and like? Are known and liked... if we believe in equal opportunities then we should be arguing and fighting for just that.. of course there are difficulties, just as gay and lesbian people often find difficulties once it becomes known what they are. They're not moved to other schools nor do they wish to generally, and neither would we expect them to be. Of course children are the main priority of any school.. without them there is no school. Yet, like any employer a school has obligations to the workforce to operate within the law and agreements made with that workforce. Staff need protecting from abuse from wherever it comes and systems are in place for that and there are systems set in place to cater for such as Lucy Meadows, not specifically for gender reassignment but both law and agreements exist with Trade Unions which should have more adequately protected this vunerable staff member from such hostility.. these may not have operated as well as they could, but even with the best will in the world, in such a glaring example of hysterical bigotry overwhelms school and teacher, no system will ever be fool proof. Cases of gender reassignment are extremely rare in schools, and I know of no other in these Islands. Lessons need learning to prevent a repeat. Whether or not a single case will be enough to bring about any real change in how things are done is questionable, but it is to be hoped...

The role of the press is important.. changes are being made presently to how the press is regulated (regulated.. not censored) as a result of the Leveson hacking enquiry and ordinary citizens are expected to have easier recourse to justice if treated unfairly by the press. I am unsure where, if at all, the Meadows case would fall into this but it is to be hoped that it at least makes the press think twice before going down the line of the Daily Mail... but in the end, the press is the press and much of it is nasty and will remain so whatever is done to regulate it in this country and we must be careful that in regulating the press we do not control and censor it... Press freedom must remain but press responsibility in its exercise of that freedom is what Leveson was all about.

[DuckiesDarling]

Hmmm moving to another school.. shades of the Catholic Church moving predatory priests.... not a comparison that anyone should be drawing. The bottom line is that a life was lost. People are affected and people are looking for others to blame. The press has an obligation to report news but not to prosecute a person's reputation within it's pages. I stand by what I said earlier. It's a tragedy. The school was doing the right thing for the right reasons. But human nature is what it is. There is also no need to blame heteros as some love to do. Could very well have been an LGB parent who thought it was newsworthy, never meaning any slight at all.

[tenni]

"shades of the Catholic Church moving predatory priests."

Lucy was not a predator. The students were not victims in the usual way of perceiving victims but may have become victims of the media harassment as well. In fact, students can become predators to harass teachers if the teacher is vulnerable.

"these may not have operated as well as they could, but even with the best will in the world, in such a glaring example of hysterical bigotry overwhelms school and teacher, no system will ever be fool proof."

I agree. Somewhere along the line the school system was overwhelmed just as Lucy was overwhelmed. We don't know what specific support they gave her. We don't know whether the system (head teacher etc.) saw the signs of distress/suicide possibility etc. and advised Lucy to take a medical leave. We don't know how guilty those who knew Lucy must feel now. The "if only" must be very painful for those who cared for Lucy.

I can recall a teacher who was clearly not in control of her young students. It was visible to anyone who worked in the school. She did end up going on leave as she had lost control of herself and spun in a downward spiral until she was removed from the classroom and sought psychiatric help. The stress from the teacher began to spread beyond her own classroom. Conversations with her became awkward as her statements became bizarre. It was handled at Christmas break or near it. It was done discreetly and not discussed in detail with the other staff or parents (hearsay was that she was getting psychiatric help but it was never disclosed to staff that way). You knew something happened but that was all that was disclosed. She never came back. I'm not saying Lucy was the same but she must have had extreme difficulty coping with the harassment by the media. It probably showed in the classroom in some forms.

[DuckiesDarling]

"shades of the Catholic Church moving predatory priests."

Only if you don't know fuck all about the education system and you're trying to present yourself as knowledgeable.

Lucy was not a predator. The students were not victims. In fact, students can become predators to harass teachers if the teacher is vulnerable.

"these may not have operated as well as they could, but even with the best will in the world, in such a glaring example of hysterical bigotry overwhelms school and teacher, no system will ever be fool proof."

I agree. Somewhere along the line the school system was overwhelmed just as Lucy was overwhelmed. We don't know what specific support they gave her. We don't know whether the system (head teacher etc.) saw the signs of distress/suicide possibility etc. and advised Lucy to take a medical leave. We don't know how guilty those who knew Lucy must feel now. The "if only" must be very painful for those who cared for Lucy.

No kidding, Lucy wasn't a predator. Lucy did nothing wrong, however YOU, Tenni were trying to say they should have moved them to another school to start over as a female. So just drop your attitude. You suggested hiding what Lucy was, the Church hid the pedophile issue. I do know the education system, you. however, know nothing of me.

[darkeyes]

No kidding, Lucy wasn't a predator. Lucy did nothing wrong, however YOU, Tenni were trying to say they should have moved them to another school to start over as a female. So just drop your attitude. You suggested hiding what Lucy was, the Church hid the pedophile issue. I do know the education system, you. however, know nothing of me.
Sometimes, remarkably often in fact, enlightened employers move people to other jobs on compassionate grounds to help both employee and employer, and in the case of schools, pupils. It is a well established practice and I think what tenni was trying to say was that on compassionate grounds this may have been the best option if it was available... if it was available, and I don't know, since in England things aren't quite as easy in that regard nowadays because of changes to their education system and the removal of increasing numbers of schools from local authority control, a new start in a new location where she was not generally known to have once been a man may have been that best option in the interests of all concerned.. that I think is tenni's view.

For whatever reason, she remained in post at her place of employment. All credit to the school for what they tried to do, but the end result was a tragedy from which school and the education authorities must learn. It is not a comparison with the catholic church... a more accurate example would be a predator teacher whose activities school and education authorities swept under the carpet and moved hoping it would all go away. It has happened in the dim and distant past but is less likely to now but not impossible. In the UK while there have been examples of predatory teachers, these have been exposed and the perpetrators punished and expelled from the profession. There is no comparison between how the Roman Catholic Church and the education systems of the nations of the UK deal with the issue of child abuse and paedophilia. Paedophilia is not hidden in any of the education systems operated by the state, and for all the fact I loathe private education not often there either, but exposed wherever it is discovered, exposed publicly and dealt with judicially.

I think tenni has looked at it the wrong way, but for the best and most compassionate of reasons so while I don't agree with him, I have no real difficulty with what he said. Indeed, in time, had Lucy Meadows not taken her own life, if the option of moving to another school was available and she was hounded still, a move to another school may well ultimately have been arranged on compassionate grounds. However, as we know from experience, those who the media don't like find there are few hiding places,...

What we must also remember is that vacancies for teaching posts are at a premium.. vast numbers of students who qualified in the last 2 or 3 years remain unemployed and have no prospect of employment.. huge numbers of former teachers who wish to return to the profession are in much the same boat in the present climate.. for every vacancy there are dozens, often hundreds of applicants. Teacher numbers drop and class sizes grow. This may have played much in Lucy Meadows mind as she weighed up her options, for even if she had the option of moving to another school, in the current climate no vacancy may have been available for her to fill.

[tenni]

"I think tenni has looked at it the wrong way,"

I'm not quite sure what you mean? I am looking at it from the perspective of placing the student needs first. That is what the education system does over here. Staff needs are dealt with in most cases as compassionately as possible. The situation of the the teacher having a breakdown happened two decades ago as did the teacher who died but her classroom was kept open while she was ill. The same with the two horn dog teachers was two decades ago. I doubt that the practice has changed much. Student education needs come first. The overall needs of students comes before the individual student usually comes first while attempting to accommodate individual differences. (ie if the student is so disruptive and many attempts to accommodate their behavioural issues have been tried, the student will be removed from the situation when signs of making the classroom , school dysfunctional or a danger to others) Sometimes, a change in location gives the student a chance to start again without their history infamy reputation to live up to. The same might work for staff to start over in a new environment without their history known. Mistakes and learning do happen as society makes expectation changes of the system..right or wrong expectations. Its complicated...lol


I would agree that the number of teachers and classrooms is difficult today over here. It has been that way for a long time. However, if the system really understood that Lucy might end up dead..something would have been done. I think that she made a mistake if she tried to change her gender at Christmas break in the same school if I understand the situation correctly. We do not know what was said to her about changing at Christmas break. It might have been impossible to find a class at her same level etc. She may have been insistent to remain in the same school and change mid year or there was no class available at that time mid year. We do not know all of the details that led to this tragedy.

"know" the education system? It takes years working in the system before you "know" the education system and even then?

[darkeyes]

Part of a child's education is learning to cope with change, learning compassion, understanding and tolerance.. that, if we set aside the academic, is part of a teachers job to help him or her develop that.. it is part of our duty of care to the pupil. it is why we teach sex education in schools in part... and ciitizenship.. we are there to help a child become the best that he or she can be... what does a child learn by seeing his teacher moved other than that every time a teacher is a little bit different, they can be pressured out of a job and moved on... and it doesn't stop there.. once they realise that can be done, then they start learning that simple dislike can do the same.. is that in the child's interests?

[tenni]

Yes. darkeyes

You seem to be discussing the "affective" domains as they were called..buzz terms change and we are discussing two countries systems. As you know those domains are difficult to evaluate in concrete ways. Sometimes the influence of the teacher can be major life changing without the teacher even knowing it at the time. Modelling is important as is behaviour. That is why sometimes expectations from teacher modelling become unrealistic.

It is best not to disrupt the pupil's classroom by replacing the teacher until the school year ends. It does happen as we know. Sadly, I've seen it happen multi times in one year as replacement teachers (occassional contract over here) happen. Sometimes this happened because the sub replacement teacher was given a more permanent teaching position. Good for the teacher ..bad for the students who end up with three or four teachers during one school year. In the case of Lucy, it was a gamble both ways. She lost. The students lost and are left trying to cope with her suicide as well as her gender change and its role in her suicide...the negative impact of the media and so many more possible factors that they may be misinterpreting.

[darkeyes]

Yes. darkeyes

You seem to be discussing the "affective" domains as they were called..buzz terms change and we are discussing two countries systems. As you know those domains are difficult to evaluate in concrete ways. Sometimes the influence of the teacher can be major life changing without the teacher even knowing it at the time. Modelling is important as is behaviour. That is why sometimes expectations from teacher modelling become unrealistic.

It is best not to disrupt the pupil's classroom by replacing the teacher until the school year ends. It does happen as we know. Sadly, I've seen it happen multi times in one year as replacement teachers (occassional contract over here) happen. Sometimes this happened because the sub replacement teacher was given a more permanent teaching position. Good for the teacher ..bad for the students who end up with three or four teachers during one school year. In the case of Lucy, it was a gamble both ways. She lost. The students lost and are left trying to cope with her suicide as well as her gender change and its role in her suicide...the negative impact of the media and so many more possible factors that they may be misinterpreting.
It is best not to disrupt a pupil's education during a school year.. but it is often unavoidable. In fact I will be doing just that as I begin a new job straight after the Easter holidays, and with exams coming up in May... not the ideal time for the kids I leave or those I go to... but I don't wish to dwell on that or just what a teacher's responsibilities are. Every year changes happen for marriage, maternity leave, retirement, career opportunities, long term illness and death among other things. Any school worth it's salt has plans in place to deal with them and minimise disruption to children's education... of course as far as possible continuity is best but with the best will in the world this is not always possible. and we do with varying degrees of success.

It seems to me, tenni, that u fall in to a trap that any gay or bisexual and certainly in this instance, transgendered person should hate... accepting change to avoid bigotry, whereas I would argue by accepting and buckling down to that change we do the bigots' job for them and they win because we have refused to face it... that I cannot understand.. we do not achieve changes in attitudes by doing what those who hate us wish. Neither do we do children favours by allowing them to see that such prejudice brings its rewards. Children, even very young children, can understand remarkably complex issues if explained to them in the right way. U really do them an injustice by considering other, and u do them no favours in respect of both their education or their lives if u really believe what u say. Children have many negative impacts throughout their school lives and will havefar more as adults but as best we can it's our job to aid them rise above those impacts by turning them into the positive and to become the best person they can be with as few prejudices and as much compassion as possible.. We do them no favours whatsoever by brushing things under the carpet and hiding them from the young which is want u seem to want done.

We cannot avoid what u have termed "affective" domains.. they are part of our job as we try to help them become decent human beings. That they are often difficult to evaluate is true and today's buzz is tomorrow's old hat.. fashions change as often evaluation such as it is sees no advantage in x y or z. Often it is only much later on that a child, by this time an adult can see the advantage to them of what they learned at school whether it be the academic, non academic or pastoral care aspects of their education.

[tenni]

“It seems to me, tenni, that u fall in to a trap that any gay or bisexual and certainly in this instance, transgendered person should hate... accepting change to avoid bigotry, whereas I would argue by accepting and buckling down to that change we do the bigots' job for them and they win because we have refused to face it... that I cannot understand.”


No, not at all. I am discussing the students and Lucy. I am not really factoring in the media nor did Lucy initially.

What policy do you think that a primary school should have to deal with transpeople teaching and non teaching staff transitioning during a school year?

[goldenfinger]

Found this video on utube, brings tears to my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epDPui27QZQ.

[Gearbox]

After this tragedy, I expect other teachers concidering transitioning to be put off due to the media. The media can do a great impression of a torch waving mob on their way to Dr Frankenstiens castle when it wants. Who needs that kind of preasure? 'Odities' are kept 'odd' despite their numbers, and despite their/our willingness to show how NOT odd we are. Some people change their gender. It's a fact! We all know that! Children should know that too, and not be cushioned from the reality of it IMO. That gives the immpression that it's wrong and too odd for them to handle, when it's neither. Thats not newsworthy though!

[darkeyes]

Quite right, Gear...a few things.. please sign the petition to show disgust at the Mail and Littlejohn, if ur British (or wotever) and buy the Mail.. don't ne more... if u are a businessman and give it adevrtising.. don't... wherever u are.. don't access its website.... seems its 'bout the no 1 newsmedia website on the planet these days... 'bout time it wos less so...http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-daily-mail-fire-richard-littlejohn-for-victimizing-lucy-meadows-leading-to-her-possible-suicide

[Gearbox]

Quite right, Gear...a few things.. please sign the petition to show disgust at the Mail and Littlejohn, if ur British (or wotever) and buy the Mail.. don't ne more... if u are a businessman and give it adevrtising.. don't... wherever u are.. don't access its website.... seems its 'bout the no 1 newsmedia website on the planet these days... 'bout time it wos less so...http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-daily-mail-fire-richard-littlejohn-for-victimizing-lucy-meadows-leading-to-her-possible-suicide
I'm the 38,926th protester. Only 11,074 were needed. So lets hope that actually does something about bigots in power.

[darkeyes]

I'm the 38,926th protester. Only 11,074 were needed. So lets hope that actually does something about bigots in power.
Gear... u kno as well as I, that Littlejohn was mouthing the Mail's line.. and the Mail mouth the line of the proprieter.. it has nev been the most progressive paper.. since It wos supportive the Nazis right up till 1939 and still supports ne 1 to the right of Genghis Khan as the ole cliche goes......so even now it mouths some rite dodgy opinions.. Littlejohn's job is pretty safe I reckon... dont like peeps getting sacked for owt they believe in... cud easily happen 2 peeps with quite the opposite view... in fact, in a sense, that is zactly wot he was expressing in his article... he and his owner have far fewer scruples than I wen it comes to freedom of speech.. 'cept about their own of course... the fact that the Daily Mail has finally taken Littlejohn's piece down off their website is nowt for them 2 be proud about.. it served its purpose... so they can quite happily take it down and at least try and look sensitive.. maybe it will have learned a lesson.. but somehow knowing some of the history of that rag.. I very much doubt it..

Nice piece here from Paris Lees of META and the acting Assistant Editor of the Gay Times...http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/26/lucy-meadows-death-not-in-vain

[tenni]

darkeyes
I read the first article where they show the man who contacted the Daily Mail. They show his face and name him Cowie. The fact that his son has been with Lucy as Nathan for three years does show some justification for parental concern imo. Such changes mid year are still a concern for me. I do wonder what the school was going to do when Nathan came back as Lucy? It looks like little support for the students was provided to explain the gender change? It doesn't seem like sufficient support was provided for the students by the education system. Parent as well. Much more should have been done than seems was done. A letter explaining the change without giving the parents an invite to discuss and express their concerns seems in order before Christmas. It seems that Lucy and the head teacher wanted it to be dealt with as normal as changing your socks. Sorry, but I think that the scientific evidence about gender re assignment is still very novel and understandable that confusion misunderstanding might be in any parent's mind. I suspect that Cowie should be riddled with guilt and as one poster stated that his son must be more traumatized now having to understand why his beloved teacher is dead.

[darkeyes]

Tenni... why should it be a cause for parental concern? Why not simply parental acceptance? No one is better able to get over to a child compassion and tolerance than a parent. If a parent understands and accepts it is likely, especially at primary school ages, that a child will do so. It should be as easy as a teacher marrying and changing her name.. that it isn't is because of the prejudice which still exists towards the transgendered. I have no doubts that it was a matter of concern to some parents.. parents of similar attitudes to Littlejohn and worse.. if we are serious about being modern minded, progressive, compassionate, tolerant and accepting, and raising our children to be, then the matter of when a transperson finally transitions should be unimportant.. and even simply the fact that he or she has.... it should be matter of course just as it is for a woman who changes her name upon marriage....

However we aren't quite at that stage.. in fact we are a long way from it.. we don't know what advice and support was provided to parents or children before the letter informing them of Lucy's change of name... or advice that the education authority responsible for the school gave to the school.. maybe even the Department of Education itself. I will be surprised if there was none. It may well have been inadequate and even simply bad, but that will be for the education authorities and not just that authority responsible for Lucy Meadows school to learn the lessons of this sad case and put in place systems which ensure that as far as possible, there is never a repeat.....in addition, it is a Church of England school and in such schools, the Church of England plays its part in the school operation and has its say in the employment of teachers. What their advice and support was I have no idea, but I very much doubt that the local Bishop and Church authorities had nothing to say on the matter or had no advice to offer both education authority and school. And what the role of the Board of Governors was is equally a bit of a dark area at present... as yet however we simply don't know very much. The inquest may give us more information when it finally resumes but there should still be some kind of public investigation by the education authorities including government education authorities..

You are right in this.. it is early days, the evidence is sketchy and unreliable and we still have much to learn for the good of all, but in principle, if Lucy and the Head Teacher wanted Lucy to slot back in as if it was changing a pair of socks, it may have been naive, that kind of thinking is what we should be after at the end of the day... but I suspect that it was a little more thought out than that and more was done than we know as yet. As it is, the Head tried be be supportive and did what was a remarkably compassionate thing, possibly more in hope of an easy transition than in expectation, but in this day and age, and with the development of our attitudes and understanding of the transgendered, I am not sure that even after a long summer break, that much would have been different. It is a primary school.. not a high school, and in primary schools teachers often have pupils for several years at a time... in smaller schools for up to half of their Primary education... occasionally in some remote rural areas.. all of it... so is a person in the wrong body in such circumstances never to be allowed to transition? Unlike a high school, there is often no hiding place for a teacher, especially one who is viewed as different and who becomes different again......

I don't have the answers, and I doubt anyone yet has them all.. maybe we will never find them all, but sheltering children from the realities of the transgendered fosters the prejudice which remains within much of our societies.. Lucy Meadows case, if it does anything, I hope will focus minds in both the English education system and my own and those elsewhere... just as there remains prejudice against gay and lesbian people in schools, and against people of different ethnicities, there will remain prejudice for a long time to come in respect of the transgendered.... the laws on discrimination of the UK or the EU will not allow us quite rightly to stop people from transitioning, nor will they allow the hounding of a teacher out of a school and out of the profession because they transition, and neither will they allow the enforced moving of a teacher for the same reason. Most schools will struggle to do the right thing whatever the rules and law says because of the differences in belief of both parents and other teachers and let's not forget the wider community.. after all.. the hounding of Lucy Meadows was substantially hounding from among the wider community.

The education of our children is paramount.. why else do schools exist? Part of that education is to teach them compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance of difference and of each other. Sometimes things will occur in schools which may be controversial and might well confuse some children.. but schools and teachers have to have the wherewithal to overcome that and help children to understand difference. To clear up that confusion. Parents have their part to play in helping schools do this but as we know some parents are less than helpful... but schools should endeavour to enlist support and aid from the parents of their charges.

Let me end with a personal experience. While at primary school, I had a very nice white teacher for a couple of years and then we heard she was leaving, not after a holiday break, but after a weekend.. in her place came a black teacher. We adapted and it was life.. it isn't an exact parallel, but quite a few of us had never spoken to a black person far less a black teacher and racism was much more acceptable and common than it is now. That there was some furore about it and some of the less tolerant parents didn't like it at all, but it didn't stop her taking over our class and neither should it have. We didn't know she was black until the day she came into class and was introduced to us by the head teacher. No reference was made about colour in that introduction. The point I am making is that sometimes we just have to go ahead and do things because there will always be some dissent and there will never be an ideal time... as far as possible schools should try and smooth the way for any kind of transition and this they do by and large.. sometimes that happens less than well, and so we must learn to do it better.. but at the end of the day, if we never bite the bullet.. we perpetuate the discrimination and bigotry we seek to end...

In cases such as Lucy Meadows, as yet there is no handbook and are so rare that as yet we haven't perfected the knack of adequately dealing with them. I know of no comparable case in the Scottish education system. If her life and death is to have any meaning.. then schools and education authorities have to learn the lessons from this tragedy wherever they are and get that knack.

[tenni]

“why should it be a cause for parental concern? Why not simply parental acceptance?”
Based upon what Mr Cowie stated in the article it became clear to me that he did not have the parental skills or understanding to accept transgendered. I would suspect that most parents do not have the understanding and acceptance of transpeople. I think that Mr Cowie’s concern had some legitimacy as far as his son is concerned. I don’t think that people who are more knowledgeable about transpeople should expect all parents to understand. The school system failed in that area. I don’t know how much responsibility for the lack of a parent, teacher, administration meeting though. Based on the headmaster’s comments I think that both expected the parents to accept and understand how to prepare their children. Then again, I am only going by what the media had in their report.


Sorry, but my experience tells me that not all young children do not completely adapt to a name change of a teacher (such as marriage.) at Christmas Break. They accept the teacher as the same person because she looks the same with a name change. Young children will react to even a hairstyle change but settle down fairly quickly..that I agree with you. Add to this the point that the teacher had been with the same students for the third year and the bond is fairly well set. I can not say whether it is bigotry or ignorance on the parents’ part. We don’t know if Mr Cowie was the only parent to express concern. We don’t know if Mr Cowie approached the head master before the media. Mr. Cowie did not handle the situation very well imo but he should not be expected to be knowledgeable about transpeople as an assumption.


I agree with your intent and that we just don’t know what all the factors were. As far as the education system’s teaching compassion etc., I don’t recall reading such objectives in the Canadian education system. It has been more than a decade since I worked within the system. Some of my tasks required compassion on my part but it was not specifically part of any formal role. It is understood that teaching children compassion is a good thing but no curriculum may specifically have it outlined clearly.

[darkeyes]

If I can make just a final comment, tenni .. part of a teacher's duty of care to his or her charges is to show compassion and to foster understanding both of the world and of each other. It isn't just to lay down the law and keep order, although often when doing that explaining why order is required often involves showing and explaining compassion and understanding. It always was to some degree if a little more rigid in the past..

These days we have classes on the curriculum (sadly not all of which are compulsory for all pupils) where we educate children about difference.. about citizenship, democracy, social justice, race, gender, homosexuality and transgenderism and in these classes children are taught understanding and tolerance of difference.. often in conflict with the teaching of parents and even church or religion...that we should understand and accept what people are and not hate them because they are not like us. This always was to some degree, but since I left school, the latter 2 issues at least have come on to the curriculum after 15 years of being taboo subjects due to Thatcher's intolerance of homosexuality and the repeal of discriminatory law which prohibited progressive and compassionate teaching about it.

The virtues of which I have spoken are covered in several subjects.. history, modern studies, religious and moral education (which isn't as ghastly or as doctrinaire as it sounds) and also within other subjects where team work and co-operation is encouraged for kids to help and support each other throughout their school lives. It is generally part of the ethos of the school and is often covered in assemblies and in literature distributed by schools. We exist primarily to help kids be as academically able as possible so they can employ the knowledge and skills learned for the benefit of society but also to turn out the best, most well rounded children we can so they can benefit the world and themselves by utilising all the skills they have learned, not merely the academic. We do it with varying degrees of success and often failure but I suspect our society would be the poorer if we did things differently.

I can't say what the Canadian system is like now, or even when u were involved, but a teachers job is and always was much more than teaching the 3 Rs, historical dates and where Timbuctu is on a map...

[tenni]

Well, darkeyes You may be optomistic in your outlook.

I do know that a few years back my province created a curriculuum from kindergarten to grade12. (provinces are in charge of education and not the federal government)

The pupils in the article probably ranged from 5-8 years old. In my province introducing anatomical names for genitals was question for 5 year old. The gender introduction was to be something like some people are boys and some people are girls. Now, you would think that might be an excellent place to introduce “some people are neither boys nor girls”. Parents reacted in opposition to genital proper terms for kindgergarten. I’d be surprised if pupils age 5-8 are “normally” introduced to transgender in Scotland?


Here is an article that states that some parents in Idaho wanted a grade 10 biology teacher investigated for using a word from the biology test book. The word was ”vagina” :(


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/27/1197450/-Idaho-Teacher-Under-Investigation-For-Saying-Vagina-During-Biology-Lesson