how did you combat religious issues?

[biinthenw]

I am struggling right now and could really use some advice. I am Christian and that is making the fact that I am attracted to both men and women even harder because I don't only have those in society against me but also my own guilt. I haven't acted on the desire to be with a woman yet but would like to one of these days but I need to get through this issue first. I'm glad I found this place because other than this forum nobody knows that I am attracted to more than just men.

[JackTexas94]

I am am atheist so I'm not one to asked. Freed from the mind virus that religion is all that cognitive dissonance will fade like fog.

[Hypersexual11]

Hi Bi. There isn't any advise here for you. This issue has to be dealt with, within you. Nothing I can say will release you of your guilt. You are the only one that can do that. Strangely, I left religion due to being sick and tired of dealing with constant guilt, just for thinking things. We choose to be christian, we dont choose to be bisexual or to have these thoughts.

[Fzmr9t]

I am struggling right now and could really use some advice. I am Christian and that is making the fact that I am attracted to both men and women even harder because I don't only have those in society against me but also my own guilt. I haven't acted on the desire to be with a woman yet but would like to one of these days but I need to get through this issue first. I'm glad I found this place because other than this forum nobody knows that I am attracted to more than just men.

it is difficult to come to grips with those feelings. I chastise myself all the time for the things I've done, and the things I think and feel. Being raised a Catholic added even MORE pressure, just because of the guilt trip that that entails. While I'm no longer a Catholic, not because of being, BI, but for other ideological reasons, I'm still a Christian and still attend services regularly. But I can't help what and how I feel. I know that what I've done, and do, goes against societal 'norms' and Christian beliefs, and even at times over-rides my own common sense logic. But it can't be helped. At least not in my case.
I don't know if I consider myself more of a caring thoughtful family man, hiding this side of myself from my wife, friends and family, in order to avoid causing them shame and embarrassment, or if I'm just a frightened shell of a person for not coming out and declaring it.
i know that this hasn't helped your dilemma, but at least you know that you aren't alone. Good luck

[Gearbox]

I think that the more people you hear about or meet that are gay/bi AND perfectly happy Christians too, the easier it will be to feel comfy with yourself.:)
You don't have to chose between religion and sexuality anymore. Just find a church that is open to sexualities. They do exist!

Find somebody you can talk to openly and trust, and also get those thoughts out into the world on the net. That helps a lot.:)
http://www.euroforumlgbtchristians.eu/

[Highlandtown]

Simply, I gave up religion. 12 yrs catholic. The only answer to my questions was, "you just have to have faith".
Not saying there is no 'greater intelligence' but, I feel, there is no 'god' of the 3 great religions.
Ethics are ethics and morals are morals. Love one another. 'Golden Rule' Don't be a D!(}'
Karma? Reincarnation? Wouldn't want to come back as someone I stepped on, or insulted, laughed at...
Enjoy this life as if your last. If there is an afterlife, bonus, i guess
People make people happy.

[Highlandtown]

This may be a hard thing to confront. My comment was based on my upbringing so I don't want shortchange.

What is it that you want? Reassurance that your feelings are great and wonderful and true. Your acceptance of yourself is the first step. You are what you are. Not anything or anyone made you. I am what I am and I do what I do. ..and that is great and wonderful and true!

[biinthenw]

Thanks for the replies guys. They have helped. Gearbox, thanks for the link. I'll check it out. It is nice to know Christianity and being bi can go together.

[Annika L]

All depends on your Christian viewpoint, no? People *say* they see evidence of god admonishing homosexuality in the Bible...they also say they see the image of Jesus or the Virgin Mary on a tortilla, or a patch of mold, or whatever. But the only "evidence" I've ever heard pertains to mm sex (and frankly, it's pretty shaky evidence at that...some badly misinterpreted text).

In the church, as most other places in society, women are kind of an afterthought. "Sexual relations between men is a sin and is strictly forbidden...oh, yeah, and I guess women probably shouldn't do it either."

But the Jesus I read about preaches the importance of love. Do you love women? He also preaches acceptance, and seems to suggest that your personal relationship with god is what is important, rather than over-reliance on dogma and religious "experts".

Maybe this gives you some tools...a starting point But in the end I agree with those who've said you need to work this one out for yourself. It's your guilt...you need to be the one to drop it.

[Juststacey]

There has been a lot of good advice given here. Allow me to say only that your challenge is not unique among us but it is one of the most alienating facets. You need to know that you are not alone, society and religion already want to restrict you so truly coming to grips with who, not what, you are is paramount. God will make up his (her, it, their) own mind about you based on the relationship you cultivate with Deity. After that its just community and that's what we're here for. Your relationship with God can't be dictated to you by the Church and it won't be dictated by us. You may have to walk a road you blaze alone but we can blaze our trails along side each other. Encourage each other through this. That's what were here for . Community.

[ghost_of_bluebiyou]

ROTFLMFAO
biinthenw
I was born and raised atheist.
By... being only momentarily open, upon exact criteria and extraordinary circumstances meeting my stated criteria did I become Christian.
I am now Catholic... enough history.
Quick lesson.
If there is a God he must be love.
"God is love." is an excellent summerization in the new testament.
Don't fall for all the added bullshit of your (or my) particular religion, just try to be tolerant of the ignorant folk of our same religion that try to use details to slam the doors of heaven in other's faces (so we can feel better about ourselves?).
Jesus was always swinging the doors of heaven open wide, and getting super pissed off at (and pissing off) the Pharisees and Sadducees, and Jesus's own disciples who kept trying to make God/heaven exclusive under legalistic rules.
Take one minute to contemplate God.
Is he some kind of pathetic asshole who creates creatures only to fry them like ants under a sadistic magnifying glass under the sun if they don't serve his ego?
If you were God.
If you created entire races of beings... what would be your highest hope? That your children would enjoy life and love each other?
Imagine how much better God's plan must be (since by logical extraction, he is high above us).
If you had 7 billion children and loved them greatly... and they were all in one room called 'earth'. If they would be destroyed by just looking at you so you had to remain hidden... wouldn't you just want them to get along as well as possible?

Don't steal.
Don't fuck around with someone else's spouse, this causes all kinds of problems in limited sexually reproducing beings.
Don't kill other's (although killing other animals will be necessary as omnivores... just kill them as merciful as you can)(and some humans are so fucked up that their purpose in life is to fuck up or kill others, thus these guys should probably be killed [sociopaths/murderers, etc]).
Don't lie, this leads to all kinds of trouble among living beings.
Try not to be envious... this leads to all kinds of trouble among living beings.
Hey! Take a break! Every 7 days! Believe me, I created you... you need this as living beings.
And look. Believe me. I love you. I made you.
Don't go trying to substitute me with buildings, statues, or such crap.
Your mom and dad, if they knew what was best for themselves would logically have killed you as a child to have saved themselves the future trouble... so try to be kind, faithful, and respectful of your mom and dad... so they don't need to do this... a 'pass it on' sort of thing.



So go forth with the knowledge that God is love.
Fuck around as long as it is not destructive.
Sure, seek sexual love... but seek real love also... real love is usually a personal decision independent of sexual partner status.
Sexual love and real love are two subjects. But don't be ashamed of your sexual self... unless you are causing harm...

Good Luck
Drunken Blue

[void()]

Some choose to combat them, not realizing the issues are mere
symptoms. Others forgo combating them and skip on religion
altogether. Within myself, know what I believe, have an idea what
others believe. We are so far divorced as to be worlds away. Even
this is fine.

A choice here is to simply avoid the cause of symptoms. This eliminates
need to combat anything. That which ought be pure love, ought not
require a person to fight against love. This is merely one humbled
view. Good luck in your journey.

[Michele Mayelle]

I truly believe that religion is the biggest evil in this world. Look back through history. People burned at the stake or Crucified, "witches" drowned in the village pond, the 2nd world war where the Nazis wanted to "dispose" of all the Jews. The Crusades though out Europe, where the Knights of St John were killing Muslims, now the Muslims are killing Christians. They are also killing each other, Sunnis against Shiites. Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing young children. The missionaries banning the Polynesian dances as they were too sexual & their traditional names, as they were heathen. All in the name of religion. The list is endless. So my dear as you can see, your feeling of guilt because you desire another woman is VERY insignificant looking back on religion. Follow your heart, don'd grow old wishing you had tried this or that, life's too short. DO IT

[darkeyes]

As an athiest I don't think religion is evil.. it is human made and it is humans who r the evil and they who bend and twist whatever belief to suit their purpose and inflict such death, destruction and oppression upon other human beings... and there are other beleifs, non religious which have proven every bit as awful and evil in the hands of human beings, arguably more so and just in the last century. Michelle, u named one.. but there are others. And they exist still in one form or t'otha.

[Michele Mayelle]

Hi Darkeyes & thank you for your comments, which I found interesting. Maybe you could elaborate on these other non religious beliefs.

"and there are other beleifs, non religious which have proven every bit as awful and evil in the hands of human beings, arguably more so and just in the last century".

[darkeyes]

Hi Darkeyes & thank you for your comments, which I found interesting. Maybe you could elaborate on these other non religious beliefs.

"and there are other beleifs, non religious which have proven every bit as awful and evil in the hands of human beings, arguably more so and just in the last century".
Dont have time at present to elaborate on them tho have in my time on site... but such beliefs r the fascism of Mussolini in Italy, in Spain, that of Franco and his felangists, in Chile by Pinochet, the Stalinism of the Soviet Union, by Mao's China, the racism of Apartheid South Africa and many others. And of past and present day capitalism. Arguably not an evil philsophy as such, but so abused that misery, corruption and privilege is encouraged at the expense of the overwhelming majority of people on the planet and threatens the well being of life itself..

[void()]

I don't think religion is evil.. it is human made and it is humans who r the evil and they who bend and twist whatever belief to suit their purpose and inflict such death, destruction and oppression upon other human beings... and there are other beleifs, non religious which have proven every bit as awful and evil in the hands of human beings

Similar view here. Greed being one I call to mind readily. Shame it can not be ended with a bullet.

[pepperjack]

As an athiest I don't think religion is evil.. it is human made and it is humans who r the evil and they who bend and twist whatever belief to suit their purpose and inflict such death, destruction and oppression upon other human beings... and there are other beleifs, non religious which have proven every bit as awful and evil in the hands of human beings, arguably more so and just in the last century. Michelle, u named one.. but there are others. And they exist still in one form or t'otha.
This makes no sense! Religion, which is not inherently evil, is created by evil human beings with ulterior evil intentions in mind.:rolleyes: Huh? I'm glad I'm not a young, impressionable student in your educational system.

[void()]

This makes no sense! Religion, which is not inherently evil, is created by evil human beings with ulterior evil intentions in mind.:rolleyes: Huh? I'm glad I'm not a young, impressionable student in your educational system.

I think she is saying is religion itself is not evil. Human beings
as they seem apt to do, pervert most noble ideas. Words and wisdom
are not evil. Humans pervert these as well, making them evil.

Come on now. Let us grease the cogs with compassion, and our own
capacity of thought. I know you think for yourself. No point in
abasing others for your own disengaging of thinking.

"Hey man with a funny big red nose. Why you be acting silly?" :)

Lighten up, smiles lead to longer lives.

[coyotedude]

I am struggling right now and could really use some advice. I am Christian and that is making the fact that I am attracted to both men and women even harder because I don't only have those in society against me but also my own guilt. I haven't acted on the desire to be with a woman yet but would like to one of these days but I need to get through this issue first. I'm glad I found this place because other than this forum nobody knows that I am attracted to more than just men.

biinthenw,

I'm not Christian myself; my spirituality is quite a bit different. But I don't think that your bisexuality and your relationship with God necessarily have to conflict. If you are feeling the desire to be with women, there must be a reason for it. It's natural and it's a part of you, and there's nothing to be ashamed of.

From my understanding of the Christian Bible, Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection were ultimately about love. Forgiveness comes from mercy; mercy comes from compassion; compassion comes from love. I believe that if you hold onto that core truth, you could ultimately reconcile your sexuality with your spirituality.

People will believe and act the way they want to believe and act. You can't necessarily change other people's attitudes and misconceptions. But there's no reason you can't be who you are: a person of faith who just happens to be bisexual. Sexuality is just one piece of who you are; it's an important piece of the puzzle, but it's not the whole picture.

I hope this is helpful! Take care, and good luck in your journey!

coyote

[darkeyes]

This makes no sense! Religion, which is not inherently evil, is created by evil human beings with ulterior evil intentions in mind.:rolleyes: Huh? I'm glad I'm not a young, impressionable student in your educational system.I havent said those who thought up the religions of the world were evil, Pepper.. they may well have been, but more likely people of ancient times trying to make sense of a world they don't understand..and some for the power that religion gave them... it was in centuries and millenia to come that religion was corrupted and twisted by evil people... but then, what I believe were ancent lies at worst, misunderstandings at best were always likely 2 b. We just need to look at humanity's abuse of truth, even at it's basic level over the most mundane matters, to gain some understanding of that.

[elian]

I am struggling right now and could really use some advice. I am Christian and that is making the fact that I am attracted to both men and women even harder because I don't only have those in society against me but also my own guilt. I haven't acted on the desire to be with a woman yet but would like to one of these days but I need to get through this issue first. I'm glad I found this place because other than this forum nobody knows that I am attracted to more than just men.

I broadened my definition of "God" beyond the sixth grade understanding that is taught in most institutions. I no longer view God as some angry old patriarch who is out to exact revenge on his petulant children. The whole point of Jesus' ministry is that God no longer wanted to be in the "sin accounting" business of the old temple. I tell Christians, "What part of he died for your sins don't you understand?"

I take personal responsibility for my actions, I try to make wise choices, I try to respect my community, but I never claim to be perfect. I have a choice in how I respond to others, I make it a point to try to treat others the way I would like to be treated..

It must be hard to think that people can be moral without the threat of punishment. I admit, it takes courage to both know and smile at your own fear, to assume good intentions on the part of others - to see others as "full of potential" instead of flawed..but the world is a much better place if you do.

The challenges I face in life are not punishment, they are sent by a loving God who ultimately wants to see me reach my full potential. In taking on those challenges I may succeed or fail. The success or failure isn't as important as the experience gained in the trying.

God's love is unconditional, human love is not..hence your sense of guilt. I am convinced that God knows the difference between a lustful and loving relationship. The problem with a lot of Christians is that they are too worried about the "promiscuity" and fail to see that a true loving, committed relationship between same sex people can exist.

I used to feel a cycle of self loathing over loving men, I finally realized that either I could be unhappy for the rest of my life trying to live up to what I -thought- other people wanted me to be (you may be surprised by the reaction of certain people you come out to), or I could genuinely be who I am.

I can't say that I'm always happy, but whether I wanted it or not God gave me the gift of having an open mind. In a world full of people who are hurting, being able to form deep, loving relationships with people regardless of what is between their legs isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[elian]

People say that love is weak, but I don't know any other force that can stop a trillion dollar defense budget.

All of the adults I looked up to as role models in my life made sure I knew how they felt about gay people, about black people, well - about anyone who was different than they were. I was scared, I hid my feelings - my parents were really the only people I had to rely on in the world being that young. If they didn't love me I had no one else to turn.

I was lonely, I was suicidal. As much as I thought I wanted to love a man, MAN certainly didn't love me back - they took what they wanted, including sexual favors from a young boy who was 8 years old as if the feelings I had weren't already confusing and humiliating enough. If I would've believed any of them I was a worthless abomination that didn't deserve to exist.

Divine love from God is the reason I am still here on this Earth. While you were all busy talking about sin HE loved me unconditionally.

You might think I would be bitter over my past - and for a time as a teen I was but with more experience as an adult I also realized just how much love, inspiration and opportunities from mentors in my life also helped. My parents and others sacrificed a lot and it's not something that I will forget. I now preach love and forgiveness.

Once I mentioned to God that my mom said she held me in the palm of her hand. He actually let me feel just what that was like in a dream. Do you have any idea what it feels like to be held in the palm of God's hand?

I think the closest we can be to God is to live our lives with discipline and compassion for others..

I know what is in my heart, and so does God. I do not claim to be perfect - I make just as many mistakes as anyone else - but I also know that God loves me for who I am. Divine encouragement, and encouragement from others despite my flaws is what drives me toward being the best person I can be - not the fear of punishment..

That is the true power of the love of Christ – the example of his ministry is that despite flaws, despite sin, to be loved so unconditionally that you don’t need to be compelled to do the “right” thing through the pain and fear of death. That is what makes his ministry different then the hundreds that came before it.


http://smallsphere.wordpress.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woWAs2i5Ps
http://soulforce.com/
http://www.onbeing.org/program/nadia-bolz-weber-on-seeing-the-underside-and-seeing-god-tattoos-tradition-and-grace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0drT_L4G8w8
http://amzn.com/157062903X

[elian]

The "sin" of Sodom was actually "inhospitality" - the people of Sodom had a lot of wealth and they were insecure about sharing it with others (gee sound familiar in this day and age?) They sought to make an example to others by gang raping two "Angels of the Lord" and THAT was the reason they were supposedly punished. (Co-incidently my, weren't there a lot of "pillars of salt" in the Nevada desert?)

Many of the practices Paul was writing against involved things such as outright orgies and pederasty..

Most people who are advocating for LGBT rights condone neither rape nor child abuse..

If you haven't already check out the movie - "For the Bible Tells Me So" ..

[waughorama]

Look into progressive Christianity and a book tiled Kissing Fish byRoger Wosley.

[void()]

I take personal responsibility for my actions,
I try to make wise choices, I try to respect my community, but I never
claim to be perfect. I have a choice in how I respond to others, I make
it a point to try to treat others the way I would like to be treated..

It must be hard to think that people can be moral without the threat
of punishment. I admit, it takes courage to both know and smile at
your own fear, to assume good intentions on the part of others - to
see others as "full of potential" instead of flawed..but the world
is a much better place if you do.

Honey, please reread over this which you write here. When you ask why
I love you, you can know exactly why. To me, you're something of an
angel. Keep faith in the hope others may manifest this way, I will.

[HenryDaniel]

I was raised catholic and still practice the religion. I looked at it this way , the Lord made me , he made me male , strong , dependable , honest and bi.

[Michele Mayelle]

People say that love is weak, but I don't know any other force that can stop a trillion dollar defense budget.

All of the adults I looked up to as role models in my life made sure I knew how they felt about gay people, about black people, well - about anyone who was different than they were. I was scared, I hid my feelings - my parents were really the only people I had to rely on in the world being that young. If they didn't love me I had no one else to turn.

I was lonely, I was suicidal. As much as I thought I wanted to love a man, MAN certainly didn't love me back - they took what they wanted, including sexual favors from a young boy who was 8 years old as if the feelings I had weren't already confusing and humiliating enough. If I would've believed any of them I was a worthless abomination that didn't deserve to exist.

Divine love from God is the reason I am still here on this Earth. While you were all busy talking about sin HE loved me unconditionally.

You might think I would be bitter over my past - and for a time as a teen I was but with more experience as an adult I also realized just how much love, inspiration and opportunities from mentors in my life also helped. My parents and others sacrificed a lot and it's not something that I will forget. I now preach love and forgiveness.

Once I mentioned to God that my mom said she held me in the palm of her hand. He actually let me feel just what that was like in a dream. Do you have any idea what it feels like to be held in the palm of God's hand?

I think the closest we can be to God is to live our lives with discipline and compassion for others..

I know what is in my heart, and so does God. I do not claim to be perfect - I make just as many mistakes as anyone else - but I also know that God loves me for who I am. Divine encouragement, and encouragement from others despite my flaws is what drives me toward being the best person I can be - not the fear of punishment..

That is the true power of the love of Christ – the example of his ministry is that despite flaws, despite sin, to be loved so unconditionally that you don’t need to be compelled to do the “right” thing through the pain and fear of death. That is what makes his ministry different then the hundreds that came before it.


http://smallsphere.wordpress.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woWAs2i5Ps
http://soulforce.com/
http://www.onbeing.org/program/nadia-bolz-weber-on-seeing-the-underside-and-seeing-god-tattoos-tradition-and-grace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0drT_L4G8w8
http://amzn.com/157062903X

People burned at the stake or Crucified, "witches" drowned in the village pond, the 2nd world war where the Nazis wanted to "dispose" of all the Jews. The Crusades though out Europe, where the Knights of St John were killing Muslims, now the Muslims are killing Christians. They are also killing each other, Sunnis against Shiites. Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing young children. The missionaries banning the Polynesian dances as they were too sexual & their traditional names, as they were heathen. All in the name of religion & your God. Hmmmm

[pepperjack]

I think she is saying is religion itself is not evil. Human beings
as they seem apt to do, pervert most noble ideas. Words and wisdom
are not evil. Humans pervert these as well, making them evil.

Come on now. Let us grease the cogs with compassion, and our own
capacity of thought. I know you think for yourself. No point in
abasing others for your own disengaging of thinking.

"Hey man with a funny big red nose. Why you be acting silly?" :)

Lighten up, smiles lead to longer lives.

Was just recognized this past week by co-workers as the gregarious type with a perpetual " big smile on his face. " I'm well aware of how distorted organized religion is; I mean, good grief, the world is in turmoil because of so-called " holy war! " Comments are still illogical to me; how can something which in itself is not evil be created by that which is evil, namely, human beings? Evil creates good? For what purpose? Makes no sense.

[pepperjack]

I havent said those who thought up the religions of the world were evil, Pepper.. they may well have been, but more likely people of ancient times trying to make sense of a world they don't understand..and some for the power that religion gave them... it was in centuries and millenia to come that religion was corrupted and twisted by evil people... but then, what I believe were ancent lies at worst, misunderstandings at best were always likely 2 b. We just need to look at humanity's abuse of truth, even at it's basic level over the most mundane matters, to gain some understanding of that.

Oh, ancient man "just thought up " religion to try & make sense of life & the rest of the world? Science is great but has not been able to adequately explain the origin of creation or its purpose; only theories. It appears that technology, something man discovered & evolved is becoming a ' god .' I work with people that are seriously immersed in online games. They appear to be living in a fantasy world, at times,unable to differentiate between the real world & that of cyberspace. And I don't see any profound answers coming from them, only distraction, preoccupation, an inability to focus, laziness, a low tolerance for stress or hardship! In other words, the god of their creation to help them understand & cope with the world, is causing them to regress, become inferior! Just a simple disagreement, Dark; still love you.;)

[void()]

Was just recognized this past week by
co-workers as the gregarious type with a perpetual " big smile on
his face. " I'm well aware of how distorted organized religion is;
I mean, good grief, the world is in turmoil because of so-called "
holy war! " Comments are still illogical to me; how can something which
in itself is not evil be created by that which is evil, namely, human
beings? Evil creates good? For what purpose? Makes no sense.

Well, thinking in terms of warfare, yes it does. One word, subterfuge.


It appears that technology, something man
discovered & evolved is becoming a ' god .' I work with people that
are seriously immersed in online games. They appear to be living in a
fantasy world, at times,unable to differentiate between the real world
& that of cyberspace. And I don't see any profound answers coming
from them, only distraction, preoccupation, an inability to focus,
laziness, a low tolerance for stress or hardship! In other words, the
god of their creation to help them understand & cope with the world,
is causing them to regress, become inferior!

In some respects I am able to agree with you. Then, I also comprehend
that people grow older and recall glory days. That aside, yes folks
have become shattered wrecks. They seem husks of themselves at times.

Excuse me for brevity here. I seem to stumble in focus at times
as well. That and having a sense that being concise, focused helps
communication.

[pepperjack]

Well, thinking in terms of warfare, yes it does. One word, subterfuge.



In some respects I am able to agree with you. Then, I also comprehend
that people grow older and recall glory days. That aside, yes folks
have become shattered wrecks. They seem husks of themselves at times.

Excuse me for brevity here. I seem to stumble in focus at times
as well. That and having a sense that being concise, focused helps
communication.

Well, thinking in terms of Mel Gibson's Apocalypto, I'm inclined to agree with you somewhat. The corrupt high priests were motivated by a need to control the masses; hasn't that always been a driving force in organized religion?:crosseye::wacko::bdaygrin::bounce:

[elian]

People burned at the stake or Crucified, "witches" drowned in the village pond, the 2nd world war where the Nazis wanted to "dispose" of all the Jews. The Crusades though out Europe, where the Knights of St John were killing Muslims, now the Muslims are killing Christians. They are also killing each other, Sunnis against Shiites. Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing young children. The missionaries banning the Polynesian dances as they were too sexual & their traditional names, as they were heathen. All in the name of religion & your God. Hmmmm

Human beings are fallible and so are the institutions they create. I can't deny that institutions have acted with malice toward others unjustly..and there is enough blame to go around the world five times over. It is not easy to forgive, but if we don't find a way to heal things are only going to get worse. I think the biggest error is that we have used religion as a weapon, this should never have been allowed.

I see this struggle being about a lot more than just "being gay" (or bi, etc.) - trust, forgiveness, faith, hope, love and self acceptance - for ourselves and others - these are things our society needs.. With time, patience and perseverance it could be better than it ever has been.

I have always thought religion should be inclusive, not exclusive. I draw religious and spiritual inspiration from many sources, from a Bible verse, from a Rumi Poem, from a sunrise, a blue sky, a sparrow, a river...from other people who sought justice for those who were oppressed and from those people who learned that they don't have to step on other people to get what they want in life.

I am human, so it doesn't always work but I try to live with a sense of fairness, compassion and I take responsibility for my own actions.

Wasn't it hard .. when religious institutions insisted that God was separate and apart from man? That the only way that someone could talk to, or know God was through belief in the church?

My "divine experience" is that a sense of connectedness permeates everything - whether we see it as beneficial or not - we are intricately woven into and with creation. If this world stopped producing crops surely we would all die.. How foolish that we think we truly can build monuments to live on forever. How equally foolish and self-righteous that we do not do our part as custodians of life to preserve this place the best we can so that future generations can have the opportunity to grow and learn.

What matters isn't how devoutly you espouse a creed, but how you live your life. Each person's own experience will influence their sense of "truth" and I don't see a problem with that. I guess that's one reason why when I picked a faith I picked Unitarianism. It was the most "disorganized" organized religion I could find. Christians, Humanists, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics and Pagans worship together at my church.. We even have a few conservatives although many of them haven't come out to the congregation yet.

It can and does happen - as long as you leave space to respect people and learn from the traditions of others.

Anyone can beat someone senseless with a big stick and pretend they are powerful – but at night those people go to bed – hollow, broken people who have no peace – they will never really know the love of the divine in their heart – they only know fear – or pain – or lustful greed. TRULY powerful people know discipline and show compassion and mercy when it is deserved.

I guess you could call it the lesson of my life.

The divine force is an force of unconditional bestowal - whether you feel comfort or pain in what it is "bestowing" is not as relevant as the fact that you are being motivated to reach your full potential. It helps if you believe that regardless of the circumstances the universe ultimately wants to see you succeed - that is called faith.

" ..the love in me seeks the love in you,
and if our eyes could ever meet without fear,
we would recognize each other and rejoice,
for love is life believing in itself."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXMel6AYFR0

[void()]

control the masses; hasn't that always been a driving force in organized religion?:crosseye::wacko::bdaygrin::bounce:

Ah hm? * whimsical grin, nodding * Ayup, yup, yup. Either that or being an opiate for the masses. Funny an image of a combat triage medic playing angel of mercy with opiates appears. * rolls eyes, whistles a playfully morbid tune, raises fist into air shaking it in your general direction vigorously * "Curse you Red Baron!" I was enjoying some mellow happy happy time. How dare you present me with such thoughts of gallows humor? Oh wait, I know how you dare. Never mind, carry on with your dashing self. ;) :D :cutelaugh: :wacko: :bounce:

[Sar duzzo]

Well, thinking in terms of Mel Gibson's Apocalypto, I'm inclined to agree with you somewhat. The corrupt high priests were motivated by a need to control the masses; hasn't that always been a driving force in organized religion?:crosseye::wacko::bdaygrin::bounce: Even the ones who are not corrupt want to do this to people. Both circumcision, the Nazis, and the Roman Catholic church along with the Vatican are all evil and the Vatican completely supported the genocide of Jews, Serbs, and the Holocaust during World War II. Why anyone today would actually still support the Roman Catholic church and claim that the Pope and Vatican, and the RC church are all about "love" is an idiot and does not study history at all.

[pepperjack]

Even the ones who are not corrupt want to do this to people. Both circumcision, the Nazis, and the Roman Catholic church along with the Vatican are all evil and the Vatican completely supported the genocide of Jews, Serbs, and the Holocaust during World War II. Why anyone today would actually still support the Roman Catholic church and claim that the Pope and Vatican, and the RC church are all about "love" is an idiot and does not study history at all.

Hmmmm.:rolleyes: Supposed insight coming from our resident troll.:shades:

[void()]

Hmmmm.:rolleyes: Supposed insight coming from our resident troll.:shades:

One day, when I finally decide to no longer follow the mentor known as Pan, and I grow up ...
please allow me to be as generous as you. *huge grin, nodding* :bowdown:

[friesbaconnekkid]

Established religion is based on guilt, for the most part. That is what makes society work. As long as you are doing something you enjoy, and are not hurting others, don't feel guilt. At first I felt a bit of shame, but that was because I was afraid my friends or family would find out I was sucking cock, and taking them in my ass. As years passed, I found most people are not as judgmental as some would have you believe, but are more of the don't ask/don't tell mind set.

[aLABiM75 & StrF51]

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I am Christian, so never had any Religion Issues to sort out.
Our Faith is about Love, not Hate.

Hate is a Sin of man.... especially Self-Hate.

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