BOYCOTT PRIDE

[djones]

So, June is Pride month and many cities will be hosting various Pride events, parades, etc. - the predominate theme being gay pride. Sure, it has become politically correct to use "lgBt" Pride in most places, yet the reality is that the events are by and large catering to the gay and lesbian community.

While historically, Bisexual activists were instrumental in starting pride movements and the push for acceptance and equal rights, the lgBt leadership has actively pursued a course of, at best, silencing the Bi voice and, at worst, Bi erasure - tacitly and overtly.

Fighting to maintain a historic place in the gay and lesbian "lgBt" community seems no longer to make sense. Time has changed and the current generation has steered what lgBt community there may have been to a much different place. Rather, it seems more logical to accept this and forge our own community and speak with our own voice.

To participate and support the pride parades and whatnot is, in essence, an act of self sabotage - supporting the groups that would rather we stayed silent or did not exist.

It seems futile to run for blocks to catch a bus only to be made to sit silently in the back . . .

Boycott Pride.

[WildColonial]

Very thought-provoking POV, DJones. My GF (a lesbian trans woman) and I were discussing this not long ago, and she enlightened me that trans folk were instrumental in the Stonewall Riots. We also talked a great deal about the marginalization of various subcultures in the LGBT community: people of color, trans men and women, bisexuals, poor and lower-middle-class LGBT people, people with disabilities, senior citizens, other gender-diverse folk.

Here in Cleveland, LGBT seems to be synonymous with "pretty, white, upper-middle-class 20s-40s gay men and lesbians." We don't fit neatly into that category. She's on disability and I'm a pink-collar wage slave. She has PTSD, and I have bipolar disorder and ADHD.

We do both still plan to attend Cleveland Pride, she because she is marching in the parade with a group she belongs to and I because I've never been there (despite being a Cleveland resident for 20+ years) and to meet her friends from her group.

[RockGardener]

I say do the opposite! Go to Pride and fly your bi flag! Wear bi colors, or a tshirt proclaiming bi-ness. By boycotting, you're allowing bi erasure. BE VISIBLE!!!!

[PamelaBiPantyboy]

I cannot follow the logic in making a stand in something by further silencing our own voices, and erasing our very own visibility.
Gay people largely feel w are lying to ourselves, and not gay enough; All this wile preaching acceptance, and diversity, and peace.
This is the whole point of the Rainbow flag . Show up, and hold your head high. Buy Bisexual gear, and show it proudly.

[wonder528]

Division only hurts the whole. Go, be visible and celebrate. If your questioned as to why your there just ask, "You'd rather not have my/our support?" Provoke a honest discussion, don't run and cower, make a positive contribution for change.

[Long Duck Dong]

So, June is Pride month and many cities will be hosting various Pride events, parades, etc. - the predominate theme being gay pride. Sure, it has become politically correct to use "lgBt" Pride in most places, yet the reality is that the events are by and large catering to the gay and lesbian community.

While historically, Bisexual activists were instrumental in starting pride movements and the push for acceptance and equal rights, the lgBt leadership has actively pursued a course of, at best, silencing the Bi voice and, at worst, Bi erasure - tacitly and overtly.

Fighting to maintain a historic place in the gay and lesbian "lgBt" community seems no longer to make sense. Time has changed and the current generation has steered what lgBt community there may have been to a much different place. Rather, it seems more logical to accept this and forge our own community and speak with our own voice.

To participate and support the pride parades and whatnot is, in essence, an act of self sabotage - supporting the groups that would rather we stayed silent or did not exist.

It seems futile to run for blocks to catch a bus only to be made to sit silently in the back . . .

Boycott Pride.

the people most responsible for bi invisibility and bi erasure, are the bi community themselves and its about time that the bi community stop blaming everybody else for the fact that the bi community are not visible..... as it makes about as much sense as preaching about bi visibility from the safety and anonymous aspect of the closest........

the bi community for the most part, is invisible because they choose to be invisible, they do not want their personal lives put on display for other people to ogle and they see no need to, because they have the option of enjoying marriage with a partner that may be open to their bisexual interests and marching down a street, may be out of their comfort zone..... and there is not a dammed thing wrong with that......

the Gay and Lesbian communities have had to fight for the right to same gender marriage, they have not enjoyed the freedom of opposite gender marriage like bisexuals have... and why bisexuals may have not had the option of same gender marriage, they have been able to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of social living that the gay and lesbian communities have had to deal with, by the bisexuals choice to remain invisible within the community.......

all the blaming the monosexuals and the gays and lesbians for our choices and the way we choose to live our lives, is making people no better than the people they are rubbishing and blaming for the way the bisexual community choose to live...... because a lot of the push for a bisexual livestyle and community, is also not in line with what a lot of bisexuals want... IE, the push for a end to monogamy and closed marriage, is a slap across the face for the bisexuals that are fine with that lifestyle and they are often the ones that also feel their support of bisexuals that are open minded and poly minded, is not wanted .........

in order for the bisexual community to stand up as a bisexual community, they need to stop trying to railroad the bisexual community into supporting only a non monogamous / poly lifestyle and embrace the bisexual community with the acceptance and tolerance that the bisexual community would like to see... not just see preached by people that are so quick to stick the boot into bisexuals that do not * fit in with the accepted image of bisexuality *


I have helped create and run a lot of LGBT groups, publicly and privately....and most of the time, they end up fighting over who has the right to have a voice and about what......rather than accept that everybody has a voice and deserves the right to be heard, and that the biggest issue that faces any group, is the lack of support from their own quarter.....the LGBT business group I worked with, imploded because of issues with the bisexual people and the fact that they blamed the gay and lesbian people for the fact that the bisexual community did not back their own * leaders * and provide the support for the bisexual aspect....

the same thing is happening again... the bisexual community is not really proving a lot of support for the public bisexual community in pride events, so the gay and lesbian communities are being blamed... and the answer to the issue ??? well, lets all go and hide and blame the gay and lesbian community for the fact we are invisible........

most of the LGBT are not against us, they are supportive of us but getting pissed off at the same back handed slaps from the bisexual community that some bisexuals are claiming the gays and lesbians are doing to us......and ignoring the fact that the bisexual community can be very good at the same tactics when it suits them......

its people like me that have helped create and fund bisexual groups, that question if the money is well placed and spent when it comes to bisexual groups, and we are talking large sums of money invested in bisexual groups, most of them have ended up crashing or just becoming another meat market for bisexual males to hook up at but no support for any other aspect and thats because thats the extent of their bisexuality and bisexual interests......

if you want bi pride, be proud of your bisexuality, create bi pride events, create bi pride groups, stand up and be counted and ready to embrace the non bisexuals that support and stand with us because they are the ones that we have to share the world with.... but if you want to blame people for the fact that the bisexual community is not visible enough for your liking, start looking at the bisexual community that are not standing up and supporting you because they are the people that ultimately are the ones that make up the bisexual community that is invisible.....

[darkeyes]

The regular cry "Gay is to blame" dusn't haff make me laff at times... is kinda like the killer who butchers a family and then claims it was their fault because they didn't like him sneakily kicking their dog.. or a certain young American guy who went on the rampage because girls didn't fancy him... everyone is to blame except ourselves hey? Get wise guys.. there are gays and lesbians who are like ya say... but not most... no wer near most or the b wud have been removed from lgbt a long time ago... don't u dare try and deny ur own part in ur own bierasure and invisibility.. I don't blame bisexuals for it.. because I do understand why it happens... but I do blame some.. many.. but by no means the majority of bisexuals for placing all the blame onto the lesbian and gay communities.. because what they claim is quite simply is not so:eek2:..

[tenni]

This seems to be a near annual event on this site. The debate whether bisexuality really benefits from these gay parades.

“you're allowing bi erasure”
Nonsense!!!!

Protesting by removing yourself from events that do not promote or support bisexuality is not bi erasure.

Bi erasure or Bi Invisibility has to do with ignoring or removing references of bisexuality in media, academia, or history.

Not participating in an activity does not mean that you are allowing anything. If you want to act gay then sure wear your bi colours just like gay people. Follow the same manner of protest. You will blend in quite well these days of gay pride parades. OR hold banners about the real meaning of bi erasure if you believe that it exists within your local GLBT organizations. If you believe that the local organization is failing at providing services for bisexuals, then protest.

There may be a point to make the stand/protest at a different time that the usual gay pride activities. Imo wearing jewelry that signifies your sexuality is ok for you but not me. It also may be acting gay and following the mantra of the gay movement. I dunno.

I agree that bisexuals are not as visible as GLT to some extent because we want to fit in and can fit in to heteronormaltive lifestyles..unless we are in a same sex couple relationship. Bisexuals or some do not care for distinguishing themselves.

Those that do may act and follow gay practices of protest but I think that you may want to ask yourself why bisexuals do not have their own separate parade? (like dike parades in Toronto) If you believe that your local GLBT organization is not providing adequate services to support bisexuals, put that on your banner!!! DISTINGUISH the bisexual from the GL. We are not under the same umbrella unless bisexuals get good services from these GL organizations!! Why is it that thoughts of suicide and depression are so much more predominate in Bisexual women and me than in the GL community? Improper services or?

As djones states, does marching down a street half naked communicate what bisexuality is? How the fek does that work to progress acceptance of bisexuality? How does that promote tolerance of closed loop relationships?

I am going to be in an exhibition by international, bisexual artists in Toronto. It is part of World Pride. The organizers are to be commended as this may be one of the few exhibitions by bisexual artists. I am watching to see how the organizers deal with the "bisexual' aspect. The exhibition title is super! I am finding that the term GLBT is being used though. I don't know why they are being inclusive for Gay youth in activities connected to an exhibition from bisexual artists? Can they not focus on bisexual youth? There is a video about GLBT repression in Russia shot during the Olympics. That is great!!! The video does seem to show this repression and anger..but no where do I see bisexuals clearly portrayed. Are the two women kissing Bisexual or Lesbian?

The video about Russian GLBT. It is good and lovely portraits. Can you identify the bisexuals?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZn9QxUeDw8&amp;feature=youtu.be from the gays?

[DuckiesDarling]

I'm gonna toss my two cents in here. I think that a lot of people who are not homophobic but just not comfortable with the overly flaming behavior that happens at most Pride Parades, indeed is caricatured in numerous shows and movies. I think that if everyone just went as you are, our brothers, our fathers, our sons, our wives, our daughters, our mothers.... just walking down the street showing there is nothing to fear or ridicule. Maybe a lot less hostility would surround these from all communities and maybe then it wouldn't matter what part of the umbrella you stand under, as long as you make a stand.

[darkeyes]

As djones states, does marching down a street half naked communicate what bisexuality is? How the fek does that work to progress acceptance of bisexuality? How does that promote tolerance of closed loop relationships?


What is the purpose of marches and demonstrations, tenni? The purpose is to communicate, but of themselves they do not communicate in depth particularly, and often not at all, what a demonstration or march is about.. they are intended to communicate that the cause exists.. that the marchers and demonstrators march as is their right, in pursuance of their cause; that they will not be silenced and will not go away into the recesses of society's wardrobe....

A march in itself rarely wins a cause and is even less likely in itself to change minds.. it needs more and as part of a larger overall campaign it is a useful tool and essential for that cause to be kept in the public eye.. marches and demonstrations by the lgbt over half a century, allied to activities within Parliament, Trade Unions, educational establishments including schools (through better sex education and anti prejudice and bullying practices), in the media, public meetings and leafleting campaigns, book publication etc etc all playing their part in opening and changing minds is what has gotten us where we are today.. and helped other causes gain acceptance and change the prevailing attitudes of a society.. sometimes help change society as a whole.. Pride is just such an event which cannot be taken in isolation.. it is part of the greater campaign which has achieved amazing almost unbelievable results over the last half century.. and it is ongoing..

..that a march or pride event alone is unlikely to convince and change minds is undoubted... but taken with everything else don't bloody well turn ur nose up at either... because they are a part of so much more... and without either it is likely u and I wouldn't be here arguing the point... and in respect of Pride events, in the west at least, there are few people who have a good idea what the event is...

I am all in favour of bisexuals occasionally having their own events, even outwith and independent of the lgbt umbrella.. gay women do, trans people do it.. gay men do it, and bisexuals do it too sometimes.. and I would gladly demonstrate and be a part of most such bisexual events.. unless of course u think that being gay I have no right to march or protest in support and/or such demonstrations and marches were expressing as intolerant a view of my kind as some on this site seem to be.....

Not all in t' lgbt garden is rosy and we have hugely differing views of the lgbt within the lgbt and always shall... but it does pig me off when some bisexuals seem to think that it is we in the gay and lesbian communities who are to blame for all their ills and want to walk away..

[Gearbox]

It's GAY Pride!:rolleyes: Is that a clerical error there, or is the LGBT only LGBT when it suits the gays? Much like when some claim that gays & lesbians fought for same gender marriage....all on their own....while bisexuals, transgenders and heterosexuals don't even get a mention.
THAT is what you get for taking part in anything with GAY stamped on it. Wave your little bi-flags all you want.....turn up with "I'M TRANSGENDER" painted on your forehead.....have all your hetero friends march with you in support.........it's GAY Pride!:rolleyes:

Heterosexuals who attend GAY Pride are known as 'supporters': they support GAY people. They are in the same group as bisexuals and transgender: "Supporters' - who support GAY people. But it has FUCK ALL to do with heterosexuality, bisexuality or transgender-ism (if that's a word?).

Gay Pride is not about brotherly/sisterly love, accepting others, being non judgemental, being one big family, understanding sexuality yada....yada...hippy stuff....yada. You will not find a kiosk at Gay Pride where professionals work tirelessly to educate the masses about equality & stuff.:rolleyes:
It's all about being out & gay and being apart from the heterosexual 'norm'......as a homosexual.
Those who are NOT anti-bi etc did not get that persuasion from any Gay Pride event. That's not what it's about!

Bi-erasure? That has nothing to do with the actual bisexual people. That is all about the sexuality itself. THAT is what gets erased. It doesn't matter how many bisexuals parade around being 'visible' with bi-flags etc......their sexuality is erased, not them!
It was the same for homosexuals many years ago when their sexuality was erased and labelled as a mental illness. It did not matter how many homosexuals were around......they were NOT homosexual, but ill & confused people.
Still today, many bi's hear the same thing about bisexuality from homosexuals. What was learned?:rolleyes:

Bi-invisibility? What exactly is a visible bi supposed to look like or do? Are they expected to leave their opposite gender partners coz that is too hetero? Start having relationships with same gender coz just sex with them isn't gay enough?
If you're seen with ANY gender partner, are you expected to inform people that you are bi, even though it looks like you are straight or gay?
Hiding in heterosexual society?:confused: There is NO heterosexual society to hide in, and being with either gender is not hiding! What is 'hidden' is the nature of sexuality, and Gay Pride does NOTHING to educate ANYBODY about ANYTHING to do with that! Except of course the 'Born this way' mantra!:rolleyes:

It's a fun day out......but......ho hum.

[darkeyes]

It is not Gay pride. Gear.. it is LGBT Pride.. or simply, as most call it these days PRIDE, it is organised by the LGBT for all those whose sexuality falls within the lgbt banner.. it is for all str8 people who support and fight for all those "queer" people.. Gay is a word attached to it by media and also by those who are not our friends.. it suits them and/or it is easy... and it is trap which many fall into.. even people within the lgbt or r our gr8est supporters..... a form of bi invisibility if u like.. trans invisibility too.. Pride events involve and are held in support of all.. gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans and whmtever other "queer" group or individuals happen to exist.. much of what u say is right but not all by a long chalk..... there is more to a Pride event than a March as most will know... with each group within the lgbt involving itself in these after parade events.. and I include bisexual groups..... I have no idea what form Pride in Wales takes.. but I will be very surprised if it differs from Pride up here or in the North East or the South of the UK or in most of the rest of the English speaking western world at least, and not be open to and involve all groups and people who fall within the Rainbow banner:).. and bisexual groups and people serpently do that:bigrin:..

[tenni]

darkeyes
re" Pride

It is like adopted children. Gay Pride adopts a bisexual. Gay Pride adopts a transexual Gay Pride adopts two spirit Gay Pride adopts another group until there are no more spaces left on the line of letters..lol

Gay Pride thinks..oh our new kids need to feel comfortable with our real gay kids...Let's just call it PRIDE. They couldn't even create an entirely new word. "They" (those in power usually gay) say Pride will do. The media still call it Gay Pride to a certain extent.

[WildColonial]

I'm gonna toss my two cents in here. I think that a lot of people who are not homophobic but just not comfortable with the overly flaming behavior that happens at most Pride Parades, indeed is caricatured in numerous shows and movies. I think that if everyone just went as you are, our brothers, our fathers, our sons, our wives, our daughters, our mothers.... just walking down the street showing there is nothing to fear or ridicule. Maybe a lot less hostility would surround these from all communities and maybe then it wouldn't matter what part of the umbrella you stand under, as long as you make a stand.

Well said, DuckiesDarling.

[Gearbox]

It is not Gay pride. Gear.. it is LGBT Pride..
Gay Pride is supposed to be short for LGBT Pride, and also short for Fascist Regime Propaganda March Pride.:rolleyes:
I've never heard anybody call it anything but Gay Pride here, or anywhere else. It's sometimes advertised as Pride Cymru here coz the word 'Pride' resembles 'Plaid' as in Plaid Cymru the Welsh nationalist political party......speaking of fascism.:tongue:

But whatever Pride is, or is called...it's obviously doing nothing for anybody but gays. It's prob not even doing anything for them any more either.
Today it is politically incorrect to be homophobic. Job done!!YAY! It's ok to be biphobic and transphobic tho. That's coz it's all about the political GAY! It's not about the people, nor about sexuality/s. The words 'Gay' & 'Homosexual' are very well know and understood moderately well. We still have heaps of trouble with bisexuality and transgender. Not coz there are none around! But coz if your not heterosexual, you are homosexual, and if your not a man, you're a woman.:eek:

If it's LGBT Pride, it's a MASSIVE fail. But a great success if it's Gay Pride. Mainly coz many of the gays are pro-bi-erasure and don't give a toss about trans.

[tenni]

"If it's LGBT Pride, it's a MASSIVE fail. But a great success if it's Gay Pride. Mainly coz many of the gays are pro-bi-erasure and don't give a toss about trans.
hmm I must write that I have met one or two gay men who have told me that ten to twenty years ago, they would be the type that would say "bi today Gay tomorrow". To their credit, they have acknowledged their biphobia and realize now that there are many complex aspects to sexuality. I wouldn't say that gays are pro-bi-erasure in the sense of supporting bisexual not be included in history and media newspapers, TV etc. They seem to have been so focused on their own identity and gay issues that they have not realized or seen bisexuality as oppressed and suppressed.

Gays expect bisexuals to do what they did (parade, protest,) if we want to get rid of biphobia and Bi invisibility. Bisexuals are not gay people...I don't think(hard to tell with some threads on this site) We do not seem to want to be proud and out like gays in many cases. We have yet to have found our way. Trans are more visible and I suspect seen as visibly struggling. Bisexuals and bisexual issues are hardly even known. Even on a bisexual site we have more 'show me your cock, have you taken it up the arse threads. How the fek different are most of these threads from a gay site? Not much.

The GLBT organization is a failure today as far as being of much benefit to bisexuals. Some bisexuals especially newly aware confuse bisexuality as something in between the two monosexual groups. They refer to feeling more gay today etc. Where is the support to help educate them to see bisexuality as different from monosexuality? Nope too busy adding letters to the organization's title so that it can feel inclusive.

How does two spirit differ from bisexuality? How does pansexual differ? Far too many splintering groups to be of benefit to anyone specific group ..other than gays maybe.

[darkeyes]

Bisexuals are different from any other sexuality.. just as other sexualities are from each other..but none is so different that a little involvement in protest wouldn't advance their cause.. simply because they aren't gay, or trans, or str8 doesn't mean life is so good that they have nowt to complain about.. u and Gear are evidence enough of that, and others, rightly or wrongly who may feel that we, the lesbian and gay community are the root of all evil...... which is what protest and campaigns of action are all about.. dealing with our oppression and suppression from wherever it comes.. even from within the lgbt by people like me if it is felt we are so obsessed by our own oppression that we ignore urs or even oppress u..... and there are gays and lesbians who are so obsessed.....

...but few indeed so obsessed by their own oppression and suppression as to match the feelings and obsessions of so much of the bisexual community.. there are good reasons for those obsessions and feelings not least because of the familial and marital status and attachments of so many.. and the fear of persecution by a society which has not yet come to accept them in quite the way they have gay and lesbian people (who I may remind are are not universally accepted as yet by all and never shall be)...

...this lack of acceptance is particularly true in respect of acceptance of the sexuality of bisexual men, just as lesbianism is more easily accepted in our societies than is male homosexuality (I know tenni.. I'm teaching grannie to suck eggs again but sometimes we have to remind ourselves of it...).. many in the gay and lesbian communities had similar problems and still do and probably always shall.. not in quite the same numbers as those who are bisexual I think because of the nature of their sexuality; they find it easier, although far from easy to break with marital and familial attachments.. but in sufficient numbers to have an inkling of what bisexuals in huge numbers go through as they try and make a life from within the closet.. many gays never leave their own after all.. but for bisexuals it is often so much more difficult because they retain physical, emotional and sexual attractions to the opposite gender as well as finding they have these attractions to their own.. this is a complication which gay and lesbian people do not have to anything like the same degree and so makes bisexuals as a group less likely to come out of that closet.. and so often less prepared (certainly not openly) to fight for their rights and advance their cause in quite the same way as the gay lesbian and trans communities.

We are not ur enemies.. some of our number may well be and probably are, but in general, no.. because of the historical condemnation and prohibition of homosexuality and consequently bisexuality, many of your own kind are ur enemies because out of fear and often disgust in themselves they turn on their own kind... and gays and lesbians are not immune from this either... the last thing I wish to see is a splintering of the lgbt.. that I see as a very undesirable development.. for trust me in this.. were it to come to pass, only one group would benefit and that is not the homosexual community.. it is those within the community who loathe all of us and everything we stand for.. the bigoted and intolerant anti-lgbt part of the heterosexual community. Your last little barb was unpleasant and uncalled for.. not least because it simply is untrue. It isn't the lesbian or gay communities who look to splinter the loose coalition known as the lgbt. I don't believe that the bisexual part of that community does either...

And for Gear??? Ahh, me luffly Gear.. LGBT Pride a massive fail? I don't think so.. all the advances of the last 50 years come from the lgbt working together (also with heterosexual allies) and Pride has increasingly become a part of that.. LGBT Pride.. it will I hope and trust continue to help us move forward.. if it ever does become Gay Pride as u claim already is, then that group of intolerance and bigotry of which I spoke in the last paragraph will be nothing less than overjoyed and will know it has us on the run.. all of us.. lesbian, gay, bisexual, Trans and everyone else who isn't of their "norm"...

[Long Duck Dong]

to be honest, this thread is a prime example of why so many bisexuals do not get involved..... I have heard the same sentiments echoed in different groups about how if the name calling, back handed slaps and general muck raking starts, people are going to walk away from the groups......

I think I can sum this thread and issue up in a few short sentences as to what people may be seeing going on in the thread and as to why they may distance themselves from bisexual groups and bi pride events but would happily go with a LGBT pride march......

1) its the gays and lesbians that are at fault for bisexuals not having a powerful presence at pride parades
2) its females and monosexuals and hetero society that is at fault for bisexuals not being in their perfect relationship
3) its religion and society that is at fault for the animosity towards bisexuals and bisexuality.....
4) its other people that should learn to be more accepting and tolerate of bisexuals and bisexuality.....

5) its never bisexuals that are responsible for any of it and the failure of bisexuals to create groups for bisexuals, is not the bisexuals fault........
.

a pride event is no different, its not one great pride event, its a gathering of people that can share one or more common interests, be the person LGBT or allied / supportive.... and that is why they work so well, there is tolerance and acceptance for the most part .......

I agree with you, fran..... its the intolerant and bigoted that will be overjoyed once they drive out anybody that they think, does not belong or is not welcome.... and they are the ones that spend more of their time complaining about how nobody is uniting with them or standing up for rights.... and promptly blame everybody else because hardly anybody is standing with them, while they watch people join other communities, groups and pride parades where they are able to have fun and enjoy themselves without all the animosity

[darkeyes]

Well.. maybe u partly agree wiv me Duckie.. am not sure we r talking about quite the same bunch of intolerant bigots... and actually there is a little glowing ember of truth deep among the ashes regarding points 1 and 2. Only a little one which some seem to enjoy blowing to try and reignite the fire.. there is however a fair ole fire roaring re point 3.. a lot less roary than it was once and it is being dampened down ever so slowly but roary it is even now... and is point 4 not in large part what we are about? So much truth in that and plenty flame to be hosed down... Point 5 also has some quite brightly glowing embers.. I can easily understand why those who are outwith the mainstream feel aggrieved... non heterosexual peoplel did for centuries after all... and such is the historical pre-eminence of the gay community that the perception of it being mainstream lgbt is strong and I would argue a truism so it is easy to understand why bisexuals and other groups often feel left out..

...it is in large part why my little country is having a referendum this year on leaving the the great monolith known as the UK.. so I understand it even if I believe it to be a wrong perception.. but perception isn't always reality... but we have to deal with that perception and draw into our bosom thsoe who feel so aggrieved and left out and deal with their grievances... as with my little country, I very much doubt that buggering off and doing its own thing is either a wise or a very sensible move...

Of course it irritates, but I don't think wading into those who feel so aggrieved and giving an impression of being holier than thou is the way forward.. the populist view is never one which works... it simply agitates and makes them think they are even more right that in fact they are... how much more bitter are we if we see ourselves forced up against a wall in defence of life and limb... and how much harder do we fight? We have to have dialogue to deal with their concerns..

[tenni]

I don’t think that it is fair to write that bisexuals are different from any other sexuality and then to counter it with all sexualities are different.

There is a huge difference between monosexuals and bisexuals. The duality of attraction brings unique issues that monosexuals do not deal with. I will admit that homosexual monosexuals dealt with huge differences from heterosexual monosexuals.

I don’t think that monosexuals are enemies of bisexuals. I'm uncertain as to how helpful they are..lol We tend to perplex them.

Bisexuals are to blame for not uniting and being more proactive about their own needs. I’m not sure why but certainly the basis of dual attraction is a factor. Being able to usually blend in with the mainstream hetero monosexuals is part. Yet, there should be no reason to have to be "out" in a just world...alas no just world. I don’t think that using words like “fault” helps anyone. Boycotting Pride events would work if bisexuals had power. They do not seem to have power and a boycott will not be noticed unless they counter protest on the same day or something. Bisexuals for the most part are invisible. Waiting for the GLBT organizations to do something appropriate for bisexuals seems to be a way off. Studies and reports have shown that some GLBT organizations fail bisexuals. It is not gays that are to blame as much as GLBT organizations have failed and whose fault is that?

[Long Duck Dong]

multiple faceted view point condensed into a sentence, fran

I am not really sure that I see much of a difference between a bible wielding person that wants to deny people the choice of same gender marriage.... and the chest pounding person that wants to push people into open / poly / non monogamy relationships and marriages ....... they all tend to end up at the same point, wanting everybody else to conform to their beliefs... and most of the time, they are not even living the way they preach......

I am never going to be anything but on the other limits regardless of what community I walk with but thats simply because of the way I was born......but it does not mean that I can not be right in the middle of those communities sharing the love, hugs and acceptance of others and that is what sets me apart from the people that want to define the limits and fail to realise just how many people they would cast out of the community..... and thats why i have as little trouble as I do with the gay and lesbian communities, I move with the groups and communities that are all embracing and tolerant, and generally stay out of the groups where there is the constant need to fight somebody over some perceived wrong doing ......

I do not accept to see a perfect world in my lifetime, but the younger generation are definately more free loving, open minded and tolerant than some of the older generation that should open their eyes and realise that society is changing, it has been for quite a while.....and some of the gay / lesbian and bisexual communities here, are starting to tell people to shut up and back off because now they are turning our allies into our enemies...and its not over rights.... its over the discrimination, lack of tolerance and in fighting that is threatening our communities and ripping them apart... and to me its the same with the christian / religious groups that have backed us up..... sooner or later they are going to get pissed off with being rubbished by the lgbt community that they are supporting and backing us up against the other christian / religion groups that are trying to stop us having rights.......

I will be honest.... if push came to shove, I would march in a pride parade and openly say that I do not march as part of the bisexual community, I march along side my bisexual, gay, lesbian, hetero and other friends as ME, sexuality undefined....hugging everybody, loving them all and accepting them for who they are... and as long as my sexuality puts me on one side of the battle field or the other side, I would rather not have a sexuality label at all.....

[darkeyes]

I don’t think that it is fair to write that bisexuals are different from any other sexuality and then to counter it with all sexualities are different.

There is a huge difference between monosexuals and bisexuals. The duality of attraction brings unique issues that monosexuals do not deal with. I will admit that homosexual monosexuals dealt with huge differences from heterosexual monosexuals.

I don’t think that monosexuals are enemies of bisexuals. I'm uncertain as to how helpful they are..lol We tend to perplex them.

Bisexuals are to blame for not uniting and being more proactive about their own needs. I’m not sure why but certainly the basis of dual attraction is a factor. Being able to usually blend in with the mainstream hetero monosexuals is part. Yet, there should be no reason to have to be "out" in a just world...alas no just world. I don’t think that using words like “fault” helps anyone. Boycotting Pride events would work if bisexuals had power. They do not seem to have power and a boycott will not be noticed unless they counter protest on the same day or something. Bisexuals for the most part are invisible. Waiting for the GLBT organizations to do something appropriate for bisexuals seems to be a way off. Studies and reports have shown that some GLBT organizations fail bisexuals. It is not gays that are to blame as much as GLBT organizations have failed and whose fault is that?
Not fair tenni, hey? And how do u make that out??? Arguably, and it is a point I am increasingly coming round to thinking, bisexuals are more similar to both hetero and homosexuals because of the very nature of their sexuality and Gay and str8 are far more different from each other than they are from u lot.. we can argue both ways, tenni..

I have long believed that the very nature of bisexuality has meant greater numbers remaining hidden in the closet than are from the lesbian and gay communities.. this belief goes back to the days I was bisexual myself, Time and experience has also taught me that there appears to be a far greater number of bisexuals knocking around than there are homosexual.. this comes from my experience of bisexual and lesbian women.. my experience of bisexual men is far more limited in that I have never knowingly had sex with one and still don't know if I ever did.. tho I do find it difficult to believe that it never occurred... but I find it even more difficult to believe that women are vastly more bisexually likely then men.. consequently, I have long since believed that there are far far more bisexuals around in this world than homosexual.. possibly even more than heterosexual but I have moved away from that idea somewhat.. and I have long believed that as bisexuals gain more confidence and belief in themselves theywill play a greater part in the lgbt, and that some day, those of us who are gay within the lgbt will b swamped by this new confident army of bisexual people, confident and strident to take the lgbt where it will.. and hun, they will some day have the power so to do... because I don't believe that we queer monosexuals will have the power or numbers to stop them.. so we will require to make a new accommodation with bisexuals... and bisexuals will have to try and not abuse the power their sheer number grants them.. both gay and bisexual some day will have to be big enough to work together in such a scenario and avoid the kinds of squabbling we find now when it is the gay community which is seen to have that power..

...vengeance is a delight best served cold it is said... what I reckon is that it is best served not at all and the bisexual community will have to try and be big enough and mature not 2 act in reality in ways that it many currently believe gay and lesbians do... and I have no real fears that it will fail in that.. although there will be a few unpleasant little spats no doubt... we are human after all...

Sed me bit, tenni.. sed moren I intended on this thread but thats the way of things.. I think time will c us ok.. bi and gay..trans and str8 and most everyone else... maybe not in our lifetimes, and never perfectly, but we will b ok of that I am sure.. I don't c things quite in the same way as Duckie.. I am far more confident that they will b ok and will b moren worthy successors 2 our generations in matter of sex and sexuality... I have many worries bout the young and where they are headed... but not bout sex and sexuality, no matter how thoughtlessly and selfishly older generations deal deal with them.. if the history of the lgbt of the last 50 years tells us anything it should be that:)...

[matutum]

I'm bi but see no need to march in a parade, I have some friends with whom I hook up with. I do not push being bi on others, and don't like the idea of forcing others to accept my sexualness. or force them to make a gay cake. I respect other peoples' choices to live their life as they see fit. That's what freedom is all about.

[darkeyes]

I'm bi but see no need to march in a parade, I have some friends with whom I hook up with. I do not push being bi on others, and don't like the idea of forcing others to accept my sexualness. or force them to make a gay cake. I respect other peoples' choices to live their life as they see fit. That's what freedom is all about.
I wasnt going to utter another word and after this wont on this thread.. if u dont want to march on a parade fine.. ur choice.. no one makes u.. no one would want to. And most on site agree, I serpently do, that no one has the right to force their sexuality on any other. Most of us respect others choices and that is as it should be.. but Pride parades and other lgbt demonstrations and marches happen because for centuries others told our kiind what we must be... and that must be heterosexual.. in ur country and mine millions still try to make us live like that, and in other countries many still do, but luckily because of marches and demonstrations and parades and other activities by the lgbt, many more in the west at least are now on our side and we have rights that these others would take from us. Maybe even the right to life... that is why u can be bi, or gay for that matter... people acted to get u that right..publicly or secretly is ur choice but legally.. not as in the past clandestinely in fear of ur life because what u are was considered a legal abomination:eek2:.....

I don't mind u not wanting to take part in support of Pride... just don't knock it because without activities such as Pride, u would still be considered an abomination and living in fear for ur life from church and state.. as well as many of the worst of those millions who loathe ur and my very existence..

[Gearbox]

We are not ur enemies.. some of our number may well be and probably are, but in general, no..
I don't think anybody believes all gay & lesbian-kind are bisexuals enemies. We shag enuf of em.:tongue: I don't think even the anti-bi gays & lesbians think they are enemies either.
What IS our enemy is the ignorance and apathy of Pride. Once upon a time it was a protest against oppression. Now it's just a moronic show of arrogance and a celebration of 'out'. It's apathetic towards sexuality, as the the theme of 'born this way' & 'different' are basically it.
Where does 'born this way' meld with 'fluidity' and 'born in the wrong body'?:rolleyes: It doesn't! Tough titty for bi's & trans.

That is the root of all evil IMO.lol Having chatted to many....many..many....quite a few....Ok loads...lol....gay men, it's very obvious that they have no idea what sexuality is, or how bigoted they are about it. If there actually is a LGBT political or social org or whatever, it's woefully void of the Human element of sexuality and social integration and education. It's hammered down into a political & sociopathic agenda.

For eg:
(1.) Today I chatted to a 'gay' friend of mine on-line. He was saying that although he knew he was born gay at 14, he still fell in love with twice with women, had LT relationships with them and really enjoyed the sex etc.:rolleyes: He's 53 and has been to lots of Pride events etc.lol

(2.) On a gay site I haunt, homophobia was discussed. Two mods refused to accept biphobia & bi-erasure claims from another bi member, coz (in their opinions) bisexuality doesn't exist. Liking cock, means that you were born gay! This was on a site dealing with sexuality issues, and the mods are not retarded, and are lovers of Pride events etc

I could go on & on with egs just as apathetic towards reason like those ones....believe me.:eek2: What disturbs me (and it should all IMO) what the fuck are getting out of those Pride events? Are they being indoctrinated into a belief system? Should it be supported?
It's sinister IMO. Far too much like a religious movement where NOTHING matters as long as you're a follower. It all needs to move on and into the 21st century, quit the propaganda lark and start being inclusive of ALL society & sexualities etc. Otherwise Pride is just a march of arrogance.

[darkeyes]

In a funny sort of way ur right.. it is a celebration.. but not one of arrogance, maybe of out but I've never thought of it in that sense.. Pride is a celebration of we are here..who we are.. we are gay or bi, or trans or pan or whatever we are.. we are telling the world we aren't going away and we will have fun while we are here. It is a celebration of lgbt history. There is not and never has been any effort in indoctrination.. we leave indoctrination to quite another bunch of tossers:bigrin:...it is a celebration of freedom and like so many such celebrations it has its message. It is about inclusion, Gear.. about the inclusion into society of anyone and everyone irrespective of sexuality or gender with the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else in that society.. I don't c much that is sinister about that, but then paranoia only nips at my arse... it hasn't consumed me quite yet:tongue::kiss:..

[Gearbox]

Well, yes that is the level of Pride - "We are here!". Who doesn't know that these days?:bigrin: What is the point of being 'here' when that's all you've got to say.....year after year? Everybody knows it already. It needs to progress IMO. It needs to actually tackle oppression and not just be big & strong enuf to overcome it.
That takes education, and from what I've experienced with gay men in particular, that isn't the LGBT's strong point. Oppression just gets another source and target, while homosexuality is transplanted to ID.

Compare sexuality to spiritualism with the ID's of religion & Labels.:eek: Get a monosexual orientated gay man into a room for a chat about non-monosexuality, and compare with a monotheist's chat about non-mono spirituality/atheism.:eek2:
Those that are fanatic, will fail to bend no matter what the reasoning, and no matter what their intelligence. I would like to be paranoid about that, but I've experienced it enough times to doubt that's what it is.:yikes2: Belief is a powerful thing!
It is eerie, and it's sinister. But that's what Humans are as a whole and society just reflects it. If the LGBT were to have a crack at 'bringing out the demons' I'd be there waving my little flag & banging on my tambourine.:tongue:

[darkeyes]

I and many otha peeps have birfday bashes every year... wot's the point of that? Best I can tell its a celebration of still being here.. and celebrating otha peeps also being here.. Pride is a celebration.. its a party. Think of it as being the lgbt's birfday party wich in some ways is just wot it is... can't peeps just have fun sometimes? Sure its fun wiv a purpose but not every1 gives a sod about that particular purpose.. not the same purpose.. many go 2 get sozzed and get laid just like they do at ne otha party:impleased...

.. course the lgbt isn't perfect... wivout it tho, Gear, we wud all b in a rite pickle hidden away inside our wardrobes or in clink:yikes2:..

[Gearbox]

There should be rows of floats with massive wardrobes full of peeps at Pride!:tongue: Should be a 'Down low' one where peeps take turns jumping in & out, and a sexuality trampoline where peeps bounce up & down into a big pink bubble before falling down into the model hetro village around it.lol

As a bit of fun, it's ok. More tho!!! MORE!!!!:bounce:

[tenni]

"There are gays and lesbians who are biphobic, there are straight people who are biphobic, and yes there are even bisexuals who are biphobic and who do not understand bisexuality."

GiovanniPHL
You have identified several issues.

How does going to Pride parades resolve these issues?

[tenni]

Simple. It shows people that we bisexuals exist, are out, are proud and not ashamed of our sexuality, and that we have large numbers as bisexual women, men, and trans people outnumber gay/lesbian men, women, and trans people.


If someone watching the event is bisexual but not out seeing other bisexual people at pride parades or events would make them more comfortable with coming out.

Which demonstrates that bisexuals exist clearer: a/ marching with gays, lesbians, trans etc. as one of many or b/ marching as bisexuals alone? ;)

Such marching does not seem to align with the bisexual (some) philosophy that a person's sexuality should not matter. How can we expand upon the bisexual (some) belief that a person's sexuality should not matter as far as social and legal rights of freedom? Does the idea that bisexuals are ashamed fit into this bisexual belief philosophy? Does this bisexual belief show that bisexuals are not just like gays?

[newlynymphos]

Drama, drama! Just be yourself! If you haven't found that, than quit bitchin!

[darkeyes]

Drama, drama! Just be yourself! If you haven't found that, than quit bitchin!Have u ever thought that bitching might just be my natural state? Trust me, hun.. u wouldn't b the only 1:cutelaugh... it isn't Gears tho.. Gear is luffly.. he is just an argumentative b... if I sed sugar he wud say shi*e..

Drama? Drama??? Moi? God.. drama is me middle name an it follows me round like zif it wos tied 2 me wrist... I luff a gud bitta drama.. don't knock it.. wer wud we b wivout a gud ole fashioned dose of drama?? Spesh of the melo kind:tongue::cutelaugh... am pretty decent at that an all:impleased... shud b.. get enuff practice:eek2:...

[tenni]

" You do know that many LGBT pride parades especially ones that are large or held in large cities have a parade event, or section of the parade just for bisexuals right?"

Yes, I do know that. I was just talking to someone about World Pride parade in Toronto this year. They were hoping that others might have a banner from outside of Toronto (like a New York bisexual banner). This is all in the same parade as GLBT. It is just another banner ..like gay police, dykes on bikes etc.

I do know about Sept 23. Nothing happens much around here. Nothing much happens on this site either. Why do you think that there is a bisexual day? Maybe, bisexuals do not want to be connected to GLBT? It doesn't get the publicity that Pride parades get. No one marches on Sept 23 in Toronto. Apathy? or ?

I’m not sure what world and what history that you are referring to. I did not know the word bisexual existed until late1980. You were either straight or gay where I lived back then. Bisexuals may have existed for centuries. Group acknowledgement ..not so much.


One thing that I have noticed is that you have just joined the site. Another thing that I notice is that some are very strong supporters of GLBT organizations and some bisexuals are not. No offence but you seem emerged in pro Gay politics? I could be wrong.

[Gearbox]

Drama, drama! Just be yourself! If you haven't found that, than quit bitchin!
Pride was founded on bitching. If people didn't bitch, there'd be no marches of any description and nothing would ever change.:bigrin:
You'd prob be in prison if no gays, bi's and trans bitched about things needing a change.

[Long Duck Dong]

welcome to the site, giovanni.....

lol .... pro gay ? its basically means that you are not being pro bisexual and anti everybody else, you are daring to be supportive of the bisexuals AND our allies in the LGBT so its a back handed slap at you and a way of implying that you are not really caring about the bisexual community and that your understanding may not be in line with the bisexual communities wants and needs.... and that you may not be in touch with the reality that bisexual people deal with...... the fact that you may be a out and proud bisexual, means nothing.... and thats why the site has become so devoid of most articles and posts about the LGBT community, the victories, the positive aspects, the times to celebrate etc.......

on a side note......

a few of my friends and I are helping to arrange funding for a group of the local LGBT to travel to one of the pride parade in NZ as there not much of a LGBT pride movement where I live.....and they are heading off to stand up and represent the LGBT community for a few of the centers around where I live.... they are going as a combined group and intend to walk as a combined group in the pride march as in their eyes, 18 people in a group stands out more than 3 bisexuals, 3 gays, 4 lesbians, 2 trans, 2 gender queer, 5 heteros, in seperate groups..... there is 2 under 25 gay guys, one mentally impaired ( also completed in the special olympics ) 2 ex military, etc... so its more than just a sexuality pride march, its showing that we are more than just a sexuality, we are a community.......... and yes, we have had opposite for having a mentally challenged person represent a sexuality ( we got accused of using the person for grandstanding ) amongst other * issues *..

the people that are going have covered half their costs so we are covering the other half because they are proactive..... and because we are not supporting the activists that want to go and spout their agenda, we are also not very nice people, but they are the people that have destroyed 2 lgbt groups with their opinions and attitudes and will not accept that while they are entitled to their opinion they have also created the situation that they find themselves in which is they have to find their own way to the pride parade.......

I was asked if I would go as a representative of the LGBT community that has mental illness aspects... but my commitments prevent that....so another person is going in my place and apparently this time, the community mental health services are going to be at the pride parade as well.... that is a huge victory for the LGBT people....

viva la pride parades

[tenni]

Giovanni
I meant to type “immersed in pro gay philosophy” rather than emerged.(auto correct put that word there). It is a bit difficult to articulate but it is at the core of this thread’s issues. Those who support GLBT Pride organizations seem to adhere to a certain philosophy whether they present themselves as gay or bisexual they hold the similar beliefs. There is little thought that comes from their mouth questioning the GLBT organizations mantra of united we stand etc. The reality is usually different and often bisexual needs are not addressed by the boards of these organizations.

You refer to lists of bisexual people known to other US peeps and at the same time refer to Roman and Greek historical eras. Bisexuality probably existed during the Roman-Greco eras just as it has in other eras. I doubt that Rennaissance writings referred to these emperors as bisexual? Do you have such evidence from that era? Victorian era? The list of names that you refer to as bisexuals is another matter. When was this list first created? (Greco-Roman era, early 1950’s?, 1980’s, 2000’s? 2010’s? )


There have been others who have appeared on this site and your posts remind me of such posters.

[darkeyes]

If there is one thing I have thought long and hard about.. it is the need for those who have much in common, and who for centuries found themselves and their kind banned and oppressed, gaoled, hung drawn quartered, castrated, sterilised, raped, forcibly made pregnant, tortured, burnt at stake and treated like shite, deprived of liberty and life..... and that is the need to stay together and fight in common cause.. it is that which gained us so much is the last half century.. u too, tenni and every bisexual man and woman for that matter... there is little if anything gained in that time for the gay community which was not also gained for the bisexual... so get off ur high horse... to say we have given little thought to questioning the mantra of sticking together in alliance against the forces that threaten us is dismissive, contemptuous and simply wrong.. because we disagree on something does not mean either u or I have given little thought to the subject..

Do u really think the record of the lgbt in the west at least is so poor and its treatment of the bisexual community so awful as to justify a massive part of its membership swanning off doing its own thing and sod everyone else? Do we deserve that, truly? Because if it ever does we will all live to regret it I suspect..

[tenni]

"u too, tenni and every bisexual man and woman for that matter... there is little if anything gained in that time for the gay community which was not also gained for the bisexual... so get off ur high horse"

darkeyes
It is true that bisexuals have benefited from the gay rights movement if they are in a same sex relationship or hook up. BUT that is not all the aspects that bisexuals need changes on. I do not honestly believe that most bisexuals will get off the couch enough to make changes. It won't be gays either. Like (possibly?) gay rights movements it will be a small group of bisexuals articulating and demanding bisexual rights and needs to be addressed.

[tenni]

Yes, Giovanni
I am aware of all that you post (except claims about just how long the word bisexual has been attached to historical figures(due to say...Bi Invisibility). It seems incredible to you that someone knows all that you post and still doesn't conform to your mantra, eh?

Many who were murdered and the murderer not prosecuted, put in a mental hospital against their will, etc. were done to what was called homosexuals whether they were really bisexual or not...cuz if you like same gender you had to be a homosexual and nothing else. (yep there still are probably some monosexuals who still believe that one)

A question is what have LGBT organizations done for bisexuals that was not of a benefit to gays?

[tenni]

Well, someone is here less than 24 hours and finds the ignore button. No one is claiming that they are "new" to the site...lol

Unknown to Top Fuc...I mean Gionvanni? he has been debating on a bisexual political thread.

Bisexual erasure or bisexual invisibility is the tendency to ignore, remove, falsify, or reexplain evidence of bisexuality in history, academia, news media and other primary souces.

Unless bisexuality has been in school books, history books, news media bisexuality during historical periods have been ignored until very recently. The point that wiki publishes the history of bisexuality today doesn't erase the number of times that news media have said married to a woman politician X is gay because he had sex with a man in washroom.

Now, back to the thread topic.
What have LGBT organizations done for bisexuals that was not of a benefit to gays?

[tenni]

There is not much to post in response to post 50 that is on topic.

Off topic of this thread but ....
Pensylvania must be one of the more enlightened places in the world to actually teach (grade school? high school? or university classes..more likely) about bisexuality in history classes. (then again the poster has not stated that he was educated in Pensylvania. Teaching bisexuality in famous writers etc. is not on the Ontario educational curriculum and yet same sex marriage has been legal in my province for nearly ten years now.

btw Congrats to Pensylvania about having legal same sex marriage for the past two or three weeks.

Again, What have GLBT organizations done for bisexuals that has not been a benefit for gays?

[Gearbox]

Do u really think the record of the lgbt in the west at least is so poor and its treatment of the bisexual community so awful as to justify a massive part of its membership swanning off doing its own thing and sod everyone else? Do we deserve that, truly? Because if it ever does we will all live to regret it I suspect..
'Sodding everybody else' isn't the point. Here's the point:

To participate and support the pride parades and whatnot is, in essence, an act of self sabotage - supporting the groups that would rather we stayed
silent or did not exist.
That's a damn good point too IMO. There's prob more bi oppression coming from those within the parade than outside it. Am talking about the gay community of course, not the lovely trans.:tongue:

It's not very comforting when everywhere you go on the net, there's some gay bloke/s spouting bi-erasure. It's even less comforting when you meet them in person.
Yet these people will be marching away in the Parade like they were against bigotry and not at all fascist or hypocrites.
It's a bit silly isn't it?:rolleyes:

[Long Duck Dong]

I will be dead honest.... if the only reason for going to a pride event, was cos of my sexuality, I would not go...... but that is because my sexuality is an aspect of me, its not the sum total of who I am.......

i am not one of these people that sees society or the world as owing me anything because I am attracted to more than one gender, and it does not mean that my needs or wants are any more or less valid than any other person in a pride parade.......and while I am not ashamed of my sexuality, its not really something that is that much of a pride thing either..... Hey mum, I aced the test in english, I got an A in computer skill and I am infatuated with the maths teacher because he is a hot guy and I wanna bang the economics teacher in a threesome with her husband, lol...... sure, sucking a cock may get me a job, but its not going to mean that I am qualified to do the job and being bisexual never fixed my computer...

its the same with a military parade, its not really a case of marching because I served.... its more about I am marching with those that have served, they understand my reality better than a person that has not.... but the policeman also understands, they may have never left the country, they may have never laid in their own piss and shit, waiting for that one shot.... but they understand what its like...... the colour of the uniform and the job title is like the LGBT, take away the labels and the gender we are attracted to, and we are all the same, we know what its like to desire, be attracted to, feel a need for.... and to have supporters and critics, friends and foe.......

so if people do not walk in a pride parade, they are making a choice.... future friendships could be lost, new avenues of funding and support may be lost, new ventures may be lost, the chance for others to take a interest in us and our work, may be lost........ and the chance to give others the opportunity to step in with the help and support that we seek, is taken away from them..... thats more than just a sexuality and an attraction, thats a reality and a future opening for ourselves and others........

that is what is going thru my head when I think of a pride parade..... what I consider if I choose to walk with people or not... its not all about me, its about the possibilities for myself and others... and yes also the fact that the bisexual community of NZ generally ignore most of the bisexual community that are * too far away from the action * to matter.. so it comes down to me and others to build up that bisexual community network in our own area without much help from the NZ bisexual community ( they have tried to step in and pull us under their wing when they realised the advantages to using us for their own gain with funding and opportunities that we would never see )

sure I can choose not to go to a pride parade ( $2800 it would cost me to go ) but the cost to the local LGBT community could be a lot higher if somebody from our community does not go.... so we are sending people, because its not all about sexuality and attraction, its about community and as spock would say, the needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the few.....

am I pro LGBT, nope... am I pro gay..... nope.... am I pro bisexual... not really....... but I am pro people, pro community and pro making a difference.....and thats how I make a difference for the people I care about...... and my reward ( and others ) is to be told that we are not standing up for the bisexual community, we are pro LGBT, not pro BI, we are ignoring the issues that affect our communities that we are openly involved in... and even told about how we are not really bisexual......

gee sir.... do I really have to sit at the back of the bus in the bisexual seats... why can I not sit in the front with the LGT like we used to be able to when we marched for same gender marriage and anti discrimination on the grounds of sexuality..... who were the fuckin idiots that set us back so many years ??????

[darkeyes]

What have GLBT organizations done for bisexuals that has not been a benefit for gays? Possibly some trans issues..worked in alliance with bisexuals and transpeople on Trans issues.. arguable possibly... but turn your statement on its head what has the lgbt achieved and striving to achieve that is not for the benefit of bisexuals?

[darkeyes]

'Sodding everybody else' isn't the point. Here's the point:

That's a damn good point too IMO. There's prob more bi oppression coming from those within the parade than outside it. Am talking about the gay community of course, not the lovely trans.:tongue:

It's not very comforting when everywhere you go on the net, there's some gay bloke/s spouting bi-erasure. It's even less comforting when you meet them in person.
Yet these people will be marching away in the Parade like they were against bigotry and not at all fascist or hypocrites.
It's a bit silly isn't it?:rolleyes:
More, Gear? Really? So the gay community have held the reigns of power throughout history and have been the ones to oppress bisexuals? Who run the religions who condemn bisexuality? Who make up the far right organisations who would have bisexuality banned, bisexuals imprisoned, tortured and killed and who run the nations on this earth who do just that? Who run amok in South Africa where it is legal, raping, battering and/or butchering bisexual people.. correct me if I'm wrong, but but are these people not overwhelmingly heterosexual and doing what they do because of the fact that active bisexuals practice homosexual practices... of course u may consider a bisexual raped and butchered for doing a homosexual act as bi-erasure... but I just call it butchery and barbarism..

There are gay men and lesbians who do just as u say, Gear, but they are no where near the number of heterosexuals who do so.. and they have no where near the power in our societies.. any of our societies, whether being able to actively practice ur sexuality is legalised or not..... but are they the majority of gay and lesbians people in our world? No they fucking aren't not by a long shot... no one is saying the lesbian and gay parts of the lgbt are innocent of being shites to other parts of the community...but we are saying it is nowhere near most.. I do wish people would take aim at those who are responsible for the real problems of our communities.. and it isn't the gay and lesbian, culpable tho many of them can be...

Trust me.. some of the most contemptuous, disgusting and often abusive things I have seen written of Transpeople or hear spoken of them have rolled out of the gobs of self proclaimed bisexuals, men principally tho not exclusively...or off their keyboards.. u just need to read the pages of forums to get an idea of that... do I think it the entire bisexual community who do so? No I don't, not by a long chalk.. just as it is a small minority of arseholes within the gay and lesbians communities who talk to and treat u and other bisexual people so badly on-line or elsewhere.. and for that matter just as I don't think that the evil done by the worst of heterosexual kind in our societies is anywhere near representative of the str8 community...

[Gearbox]

When you look for 'reigns of power', you don't just have to take account of laws, governments and religions. You look at movements that effect the way society views x,y or z. Women's Lib being an eg. That wasn't just a movement to change laws or get equality. It was to change how women are viewed in society and it has informed society how to view women. Today we can see the effects of it in a snapshot of society. Although there are many misogynists still live & kicking, it doesn't change the view that women are equal to men and what a woman is etc.

So lets get our society cameras out and take a snapshot of the sexuality bit of society.:rolleyes: Lets have a gander of how well the LGBT movement has informed society of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgendered.
With my camera, I can see that even a 5yo knows what a gay is and what homosexuality is. Society is VERY well informed of homosexuality and I doubt there are any who has never heard of it.
Bisexuality is a bit vague tho. Not many 5yo's knows what that is. Strangely, many adults don't have a clue either, and even bisexuals don't get to know about it until well into their teens and have to search for it. Sites like this one are put up to help them out.
The transgendered are not very well understood either. All in the LGBT pussyfoot around them coz we don't know how to refer to them etc and often insult them due to that.

So we can see how the LGBT has done a marvellous job of informing society about homosexuality at least.:rolleyes:
Well not really! There's a bit of confusion as to what homosexuality is and what a homosexual is. Apparently any same gender sexual act is homosexual: If a man sucks a cock, he is gay/homosexual. It doesn't matter what he does with women coz he'd be homosexual and in denial of it. That is 'known' from an early age in society.
THAT is also what the adult, intelligent homosexuals who are biphobic 'inform' others. If they are a minority, I'd reckon that they are a pretty powerful minority, as that passes down the line very well. It's also passes through to media where anything non-hetero is portrayed, and even causes many bi's to opt for the gay ID & 'born this way' belief despite not being gay.

NO! Not all gays are biphobic. Enough of them are tho, and if that's the minority, then shame on the majority. Shame on us all!
We should know better by now. The LGBT should have evolved by now.

[tenni]

darkeyes
My question was not about trans. Stayed focused on this bisexual site on the issue of bisexuality and GLBT organizations' Pride events (yes I have been to a Toronto Pride parade). The question is about what GLBT organizations have done to the benefit for bisexuals that has not benefited gays.

You do not seem to be able to provide one thing that this organization and Pride parades have provided to the benefit of bisexuals but not gays.

Why is it necessary to “turn the question on its head”? It is a direct question deserving a direct answer. To revert the issue by sending back a vague question about LBGT organizations achieved that was not a benefit of bisexuals is an side bar acknowledgement that NOTHING has been done to benefit bisexuals that did not also benefit gays. What the LGBT organizations do for same sex scenarios is of prime benefit for gays. How does same sex marriage benefit the bisexual in a cross gender relationship? If they want a “legal” closed loop relationship between three people same sex marriage does not provide legal rights to these people. Same sex marriage supports “coupledom” not bisexuality that exists beyond the monogamous couple relationship.

However, this still does not answer in the positive what GLBT organizations and all their Pride philosophy have done to the the benefit of bisexuals without also benefiting gays. Gay rights and gay philosophy have been at the core of the Pride BTLG movement for a very long time.

"So the gay community have held the reigns of power throughout history and have been the ones to oppress bisexuals?"
No, of course not throughout all of western history. Gays have been equally oppressed for the past few centuries at least. It could be argued more oppressed than bisexuals. Bisexuals could proudly show their interest in opposite gender as long as they did not also proudly show their interest in same gender and heaven forbid both genders at the same time!!! I get the impression that presently you find oppression "hot" and lean towards trans people as being the most oppressed and most deserving of your love and caring? That is fine and I would agree with much that you write about the oppressions of trans. The point of this thread is not about trans though. It is about bisexuals and whether they should boycott etc. Pride.

Today, however, within the BLTG organizations gays do seem to hold the reigns of power. I'm not convinced that they intended to oppress bisexuals but these organizations do put gay rights/issues above finding out what rights bisexuals need that gays do not. It can not be ignored that a segment of gays have strongly stated that bisexuality is false and merely a stopping spot to gaydom. It seems to still prejudice such Pride organizations from putting bisexual needs/rights ahead of gay needs/rights. Then again, the argument that bisexuals do not articulate their rights /needs clearly enough, how can poor little gays promote their rights? Lots of gays did not argue for same sex marriage and in fact opposed it as too similar to hetero monosexuals values and morality.

[Long Duck Dong]

honestly, its easier to teach a child about homosexuality and gay males than it is to teach them about bisexuality......

heterosexual, man likes / loves woman
homosexual, man likes / loves man
lesbian, woman likes / loves woman
bisexual, man / woman likes / loves woman and man but man / woman may like / love man / woman more than man / woman ( breaking it down to the simpliest but all encompassing terms for the differing attraction levels

how about marriage,
heterosexual man marries woman
homosexual, man marries man
lesbian, woman marries woman
bisexual, man / woman marries man / woman ....but man / woman may want to also marry man / woman and man / woman

couples...

heterosexual man and woman
homosexual, man and man
lesbian, woman and woman
bisexual, woman / man and woman / man and woman / man ( include man / man / man and woman / woman / woman )

we have the reality of sex acts..... if its male and female, its not a bisexual act, its a hetero act ( very little said about that ) if its two females, its not a bisexual act, its a lesbian act ( very lil said about that ) if its two guys its not a bisexual act its a gay act ( protest marches in 11 cities, numerous threads, accusations about trying to hide the * truth * )


the reality of sexuality for some people.... I am attracted to the opposite sex but ONLY attracted to the genitals of the same sex ( bisexual ) I am attracted to the opposite sex but I have a attraction to the same sex ( bisexual ) I am attracted to the opposite and same sex equally ( bisexual ).... I am attracted to opposite and same cisgender and also trans ( bisexual, actually its pansexual ) I am attracted to the opposite and same sex, trans, gender queer etc ( bisexual and stop it please... bisexual means attraction to the same ans opposite sex, if you call yourself pansexual / omnisexual / open sexual, its actually correct but you need to only use the incorrect term bisexual and forget the other VALID sexualities ) I am attracted to the opposite sex but I think about the same sex at times ( bisexual and you are GOING to want to fuck other people of the same gender later in life so call yourself bisexual....
( side note: I do not care about labels, a person can call themselves what they want and I will accept it )

what about commitment in relationships and marriage

heterosexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine
homosexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine
lesbian, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine
bisexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine.... no wait... what the hell are you thinking... you have no right to choose monogamy, if you do you are confirming, its your partners fault, society and religion are forcing you.......


it all sounds easy to talk about, but when it comes down to actually showing people about bisexuality, there is a very one sided and unbalanced view of bisexuality that is actually being pushed by people.... yet when it comes to twisted and unbalanced views of bisexuality... the heteros gays and lesbians are being blamed for it.....

the reality is that a lot of the time that the word gay is used, its not referring to people as gay... its referring to the nature of the couple, sex act, relationship.... and being read as gay = male homosexual....... and how many times has a person used the terms I feel more lesbian / gay when referring to their attraction to the same and opposite gender ? are we supposed to say I feel more bisexual today than I did yesturday... I had a strong bisexual draw to a woman but today its changed, now I have a strong bisexual draw to a man....

we often use terms to define a sexual act.... but when it comes to bisexuals, the rule book changes.....

hetero.... I had hetero sex with the wife / gf
homosexual I had gay sex with the husband / bf
lesbian I had gay / lesbian sex with the wife / gf
bisexual I had bisexual sex with the wife / gf then I went and had bisexual sex with a guy and then we had bisexual sex in a threesome.....


that in a nutshell is why teaching people about bisexuality is bloody near impossible and that is using issues that have come up in this site in regards to sharing about and talking about bisexuality and bisexuals to other people or the terms used in the media to refer to aspects of bisexuality....

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
My question was not about trans. Stayed focused on this bisexual site on the issue of bisexuality and GLBT organizations' Pride events (yes I have been to a Toronto Pride parade). The question is about what GLBT organizations have done to the benefit for bisexuals that has not benefited gays.

You do not seem to be able to provide one thing that this organization and Pride parades have provided to the benefit of bisexuals but not gays.

Why is it necessary to “turn the question on its head”? It is a direct question deserving a direct answer. To revert the issue by sending back a vague question about LBGT organizations achieved that was not a benefit of bisexuals is an side bar acknowledgement that NOTHING has been done to benefit bisexuals that did not also benefit gays. What the LGBT organizations do for same sex scenarios is of prime benefit for gays. How does same sex marriage benefit the bisexual in a cross gender relationship? If they want a “legal” closed loop relationship between three people same sex marriage does not provide legal rights to these people. Same sex marriage supports “coupledom” not bisexuality that exists beyond the monogamous couple relationship.

However, this still does not answer in the positive what GLBT organizations and all their Pride philosophy have done to the the benefit of bisexuals without also benefiting gays. Gay rights and gay philosophy have been at the core of the Pride BTLG movement for a very long time.

"So the gay community have held the reigns of power throughout history and have been the ones to oppress bisexuals?"
No, of course not throughout all of western history. Gays have been equally oppressed for the past few centuries at least. It could be argued more oppressed than bisexuals. Bisexuals could proudly show their interest in opposite gender as long as they did not also proudly show their interest in same gender and heaven forbid both genders at the same time!!! I get the impression that presently you find oppression "hot" and lean towards trans people as being the most oppressed and most deserving of your love and caring? That is fine and I would agree with much that you write about the oppressions of trans. The point of this thread is not about trans though. It is about bisexuals and whether they should boycott etc. Pride.

Today, however, within the BLTG organizations gays do seem to hold the reigns of power. I'm not convinced that they intended to oppress bisexuals but these organizations do put gay rights/issues above finding out what rights bisexuals need that gays do not. It can not be ignored that a segment of gays have strongly stated that bisexuality is false and merely a stopping spot to gaydom. It seems to still prejudice such Pride organizations from putting bisexual needs/rights ahead of gay needs/rights. Then again, the argument that bisexuals do not articulate their rights /needs clearly enough, how can poor little gays promote their rights? Lots of gays did not argue for same sex marriage and in fact opposed it as too similar to hetero monosexuals values and morality. Is it possible for the lgbt to do something for bisexuals and not for gays? That is very questionable.. we both desire our own gender.. many of us have sex with our own gender.. we both have the right if not the inclination to do the same in respect of the opposite gender. Every success of the last half century has benefited both sexualities equally has it not?

The things of which u speak as being bisexual aspirations alone are they simply for bisexuals? Do they not equally apply to gay and heterosexual or are we to be debarred from entering the kind of relationships u mention? Are heterosexuals? Not to mention Transgender, some of whom will be bi, some gay and some heterosexual...? Same sex marriage or opposite sex marriage does not necessarily embrace coupledom.. many gay and lesbian people would marry more than one other person if it was legalised.. although most would not.. as indeed I think would be the case with most bisexuals whatever their gender; and trans too.. I can only answer ur question in accord with the answer I believe can be given.. I am not avoiding the question at all. U get the answer as the answer exists in my mind.. it is not me who dismisses the aspirations of another sexuality and who wishes to deprive them of rights, Tenni... nor is it the gay and lesbian communities.. individually some are as u and others claim. But not the communities as a whole..

I have not lost sight of the purpose of the question as u seem to think.. it is not about trans peeps, but transpeeps are a consideration among many others...we cannot decide to boycott something or not without discussing whether or not there are good and valid reasons for that boycott... until those are answered to the satisfaction of all or otherwise how can we make an informed decision?

Many bisexual people argued against same sex marriage and some on this site too if memory serves me correctly... Many heterosexual people argue that opposite gender marriage should not be for one reason or other.. so don't try that one on me.. it just doesn't wash... are those who argued against marriage, same or opposite sex in any community the majority? No they are not.. so ur statement is spurious as a reason to boycott anything... do most gays deny that bisexuality exists and feel that bisexuals have no place in the lgbt? No they don't... do most bisexuals loathe gays and wish to fuck off into the ether and do their own thing? I don't believe so but there are times when I seriously wonder... many heterosexuals loathe both gay and bisexual people.. and trans too.. but neither does the majority of of either community wish 2 discriminate against us.

[tenni]

“Is it possible for the lgbt to do something for bisexuals and not for gays? That is very questionable.. :"


darkeyes
I think is we stop with the above statement , it is clear that Pride and GLBT organizations do bisexuals little good except when it comes to same gender relationships in a monosexual rather than bisexual manner. If you show the side of you that gays comprehend they will support you. If you show your side of you that heterosexual monosesxuals comprehend, they will support you. If you show your bisexual self, neither will comprehend and support you. If bisexuals do not articulate their needs nothing will change. Bi invisibility will continue in GLBT organizations.

The rest of your comments seem to be apples and oranges discussion. Bringing in trans is being apples (bisexual or sexual ) compared to oranges(gender issues (transgender vs CSI gender).

side bar..intersting that auto correct changed transgender to transponder...duh..lol :(

[Gearbox]

we have the reality of sex acts..... if its male and female, its not a bisexual act, its a hetero act ( very little said about that ) if its two females, its not a bisexual act, its a lesbian act ( very lil said about that ) if its two guys its not a bisexual act its a gay act ( protest marches in 11 cities, numerous threads, accusations about trying to hide the * truth * )
There are no heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual acts. There are only sexual acts that no sexuality has claim to. Lets teach those 'children' actual reality.;)
For one who protests labels so eagerly, yet also leans to the Pansexual view................how does this skip your mind?
One Gay Parade too many?


bisexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine.... no wait... what the hell are you thinking... you have no right to choose monogamy, if you do you are confirming, its your partners fault, society and religion are forcing you.......
Really? There are people forcing you be non-monog? Are they called Gin & Tonic? Or maybe it's Tequila?
If you really are being forced into non-monog sex acts by a bisexual, please phone the police at once! "No!" means "NO!", lets not forget.:rolleyes:


it all sounds easy to talk about, but when it comes down to actually showing people about bisexuality, there is a very one sided and unbalanced view of bisexuality that is actually being pushed by people.... yet when it comes to twisted and unbalanced views of bisexuality... the heteros gays and lesbians are being blamed for it.....
It's NOT easy to talk about it when you use amazingly vague descriptions like that, yet still expect people to know what your talking about.
So what are these gays & lesbians being falsely accused of, and what is the 'one sided unbalanced view' of bisexuality you are talking about?


that in a nutshell is why teaching people about bisexuality is bloody near impossible and that is using issues that have come up in this site in regards to sharing about and talking about bisexuality and bisexuals to other people or the terms used in the media to refer to aspects of bisexuality....
Lets just have a big old Gay Parade and forget about that bi thingymajig nonsense?:rolleyes:

[tenni]

Gear post 63 is hilarious :bibounce::bowdown:

Gays to the left...hop....hop...hop

Gays to the right.......hop......hop........hop

There all better..those pesky bisexuals.

"one too many gay parades"...lol

[darkeyes]

“Is it possible for the lgbt to do something for bisexuals and not for gays? That is very questionable.. :"


darkeyes
I think is we stop with the above statement , it is clear that Pride and GLBT organizations do bisexuals little good except when it comes to same gender relationships in a monosexual rather than bisexual manner. If you show the side of you that gays comprehend they will support you. If you show your side of you that heterosexual monosesxuals comprehend, they will support you. If you show your bisexual self, neither will comprehend and support you. If bisexuals do not articulate their needs nothing will change. Bi invisibility will continue in GLBT organizations.

The rest of your comments seem to be apples and oranges discussion. Bringing in trans is being apples (bisexual or sexual ) compared to oranges(gender issues (transgender vs CSI gender).

side bar..intersting that auto correct changed transgender to transponder...duh..lol :(Nothing of the kind is clear at all.. it is how u wish it to be, but often what we wish for cannot be.. both gay and heterosexual, the less bigoted kind are perfectly capable of comprehending the kinds of things u wish for.. for God's sake.. many of them think and wish for the same within the context of their own sexuality.. the things that u claim for bisexuals are easily transposed to what u would call a monosexual environment and many whom u call monosexuals aspire to this end.. not the majority I accept by a long long way but then do the majority of bisexuals? But to say they cannot comprehend it? Good grief man.. they may not agree with closed loop relationships and multi-person marriages but they are more than able to comprehend them ok. Not all bisexuals would accept those same aspirations.. so it isn't all one way.

That bisexuals should articulate their needs I agree with completely.. not all gays or lesbians are able to do that, and neither are all heterosexuals or all of anyone else.. nothing u have said changes my mind 1 jot.. I am still of the opinion that as a loose grouping, the lgbt is by far the best way forward for us all.. individually each queer group is weakened greatly if we all go our own way, and we are also weakened greatly if one sexuality decides to call it a day and do its own thing.. and bisexuals would be weakened as much as any.. maybe I am wrong. The proof of the pudding is if the lgbt does break up into its constituent parts (whatever those may be) or if a part of it decides to go off and do whatever it is it wants to do....

I too appreciated Gear's reply to Duckie.. I too found it funny for it was well thought out, had a point and some of it I could even agree with.. I am able to laff at meself and me own kind... however I think ur response was once again unpleasant and unnecessary, contemptuous and dismissive and showed a lack of respect for people with whom u do not agree.. it showed a contempt for the gay and lesbian community which would be fitting in a British National party circular.. it displayed a very marked homophobia...

[Long Duck Dong]

well gear...... they are the same issues that have arisen in the site and have involved you, me, fran and tenni.......

most of them are the stance of you, tenni or both or others in the site........

1) a bisexual man having sex, is a bisexual act, not a gay act ( tenni )
2) monogamy is wrong ( you and tenni )
and they are the only two you really addressed....and yes, its all a big joke when somebody else points it all out and apparently its a sexuality point of view.... so does that make you and tenni, pansexual since you both have the anti monogamy stance ?

so how do you teach a 5 year old about sexuality and bisexuals, gear ? well as a parent I thought you would have taken that a bit more seriously and actually posted about how you would do it since you brought it up

have I explained sexuality to kids, yes.... I have posted about how my sister and I have dealt with that in the past.....and for me, its normally a case of saying that I can love their mother and father in the same way that their mother and father love each other.... because it gives the kid something tangible to relate to....... and when it comes to sharing with kids about issues and arguments like what is going on in this thread.... its not the sexuality that is the issue, its the attitude and the opinion of the person and that is why anybody can be rude and nasty....and anybody can be nice and respectful and thats why we should not judge people according to their sexuality, race or gender.......

as for bisexuals being visible well LGBT parade can be seen by children as well as adults and by being visible, the kids can see that bisexuals are real people..... and without a pride parade, they are not going to see us..... so we have the option to not go and not be visible or go and be invisible, so there is more to a choice of not going to a pride parade than a petty issue with SOME gay and lesbian people.... so we are responsible for our own visibility when it comes to being visible bisexuals......

[tenni]

darkeyes

I guess that you are too young to remember the "bunny hop"..a dance move....hands on the waist of the person in front of you and obediently hopping. (gr 7 Phys Ed class dance intro) in this case showing moving to the right with three hops and moving to the left with three hops takes you back to where you started...I hope that you are bunny phobic? or practise bunny hop erasure..lol Bunnies every where will know that fran is not bunny phobic...honest bunnies. :yikes2:

[darkeyes]

darkeyes

I guess that you are too young to remember the "bunny hop"..a dance move....hands on the waist of the person in front of you and obediently hopping. (gr 7 Phys Ed class dance intro) in this case showing moving to the right with three hops and moving to the left with three hops takes you back to where you started...I hope that you are bunny phobic? or practise bunny hop erasure..lol Bunnies every where will know that fran is not bunny phobic...honest bunnies. :yikes2:
.. am very fond of bunnies... bunny stew is very nice... and I find them for the most part cute... even had a bunny costume for fancy dress.. however it attracted quite the wrong kind of hunter so it had to go:eek2:...

.. yep.. am far 2 young...and nope... the Bunny Hop is not summat we ever did up here in PE.. the Hokey Cokey at Primary and Scottish Country dancing at High School.. and if that sounds grim.. it is more grim than it sounds wen u have to do it:yikes2:... and in almost 2 decades.. norra lot has changed... howeva.. 1ce away from a school environment.. and on a drunken Hogmanay or a Ceilidh or such like.. the Dashing White Sergeant can b fun cos the hair is down an no 1 gives a hoot and they all just do their own thing falling over ther own an otha peeps feet...:cutelaugh Mairi's Wedding is fun at such times, but the Gay Gordon is not as it sounds.. it is also a dance that is almost impossible to have fun wiv wether ur sozzed or not:eek2:...

[Gearbox]

1) a bisexual man having sex, is a bisexual act, not a gay act ( tenni )
2) monogamy is wrong ( you and tenni )
and they are the only two you really addressed....and yes, its all a big joke when somebody else points it all out and apparently its a sexuality point of view.... so does that make you and tenni, pansexual since you both have the anti monogamy stance ?
Although there are members with multiple accounts, I'm not one of them and I'm not Tennii. Very few in the world will agree on every detail of every thing, and that is usually a good thing. It gets things aired and checked. Things that go unchecked are usually not as good as we think, or even not thought about at all. I happen to like those things.:tongue:
1a - One day I was sucking on a gf's clitoris and noticed how it was like sucking a tiny penis. Was that a hetero, homo or bi sex act?
1b - Sometimes while fucking a man, I imagine him to be a woman (and visa versa). What does that make the act?
1c - If I get stuck in a lift with a man, is that a homosexual act? No sex, but it's two men.
1d - If I have a solo wank watching lesbian porn, is that a homo, bi, hetero or lesbian sex act?
1e - If I marry a man, would that be a homosexual marriage?
1f - Was I having a 3some in 1b?
1g - does the mind count for nothing and the physical count for all?

2. Tenni & I have an anti-monogamy stance? I have yet to meet or talk to one homosexual male who as either cheated on their partner or has been cheated on by their partner. There is plenty of that going on with hetero's too. Yet you point out that bisexuals in particular have an anti-monog stance?:rolleyes:
What SOME bisexuals do is point out a reason to opt out of monog. YES that is often objected to, but it's a reason no other can give.
You can chose monogamy for yourself. Not for anybody else!
It's a Human Nature stance, not a Pansexual or non-monog one.


so how do you teach a 5 year old about sexuality and bisexuals, gear ? well as a parent I thought you would have taken that a bit more seriously and actually posted about how you would do it since you brought it up
I was referring to 5yo's picking up the concept of 'gay' from social awareness, not directly from parental tuition. Ask a 5yo what 'gay' is and they'll most prob tell you some some idea of it. It is that ingrained into society. In one way it is a good thing. But IMO it is also a bad thing: Children are being taught that there is a separation of sexuality, that it is rigid and unwavering - Gay & Straight. That they must eventually ID as one thing or another etc.
Bisexuality and fluidity is not something they will encounter from social awareness. In puberty most will naturally explore it......but won't learn that it IS natural to be fluid unless they do their own research. Research that will be highly attacked by many homosexuals.
If they happen to be gay.....BINGO!:rolleyes:


have I explained sexuality to kids, yes.... I have posted about how my sister and I have dealt with that in the past.....and for me, its normally a case of saying that I can love their mother and father in the same way that their mother and father love each other.... because it gives the kid something tangible to relate to....... and when it comes to sharing with kids about issues and arguments like what is going on in this thread.... its not the sexuality that is the issue, its the attitude and the opinion of the person and that is why anybody can be rude and nasty....and anybody can be nice and respectful and thats why we should not judge people according to their sexuality, race or gender.......
My daughter is lucky to have a bisexual female cousin she calls Auntie, and a gay male friend she calls Uncle.....and of course a bi dad.lol
No she didn't need telling what same gender partnerships were at 5yo. BUT I have explained that SHE has a choice to love whoever and whatever she likes when she is older.
When it comes to being nasty, I don't give a toss what their sexuality is. They can march around claiming this & that until they are blue in the teeth. If they talk shit, they talk shit! If they feel like throwing a stone or two at a bisexual, they will get a stone or seven back.
That is what I teach my daughter - if you throw stones, you'd better make sure that you're without sin first.:rolleyes:


as for bisexuals being visible well LGBT parade can be seen by children as well as adults and by being visible, the kids can see that bisexuals are real people..... and without a pride parade, they are not going to see us..... so we have the option to not go and not be visible or go and be invisible, so there is more to a choice of not going to a pride parade than a petty issue with SOME gay and lesbian people.... so we are responsible for our own visibility when it comes to being visible bisexuals......
No you got it wrong there! It's BISEXUALITY that is made invisible, not the bisexuals themselves. We are everywhere, but so are the gay bi-erasers.
If bisexuality is to be visible, then some of us need to get real and tackle the gay bigots. Not make excuses and blame bi's for it coz they don't ALL want to march in some parade.
The LGBT needs a good overhaul. It's embarrassing to have a sexuality based movement with such a poor view of sexuality. That is why there are so many gays spouting utter tripe about bi's.

[jamieknyc]

At least in New York, they have greatly toned down the flaming behavior. The parade organizers decided several years ago that muscle boys dancing around in g-strings and dykes-on-bikes was not the image that gay organizations wanted to project.

Some friends of mine who are active in LGBT organization politics do tell me that bisexuals get the short end of the stick. One organizer even went so far as to compile a report card to major LGBT organizations, grading them according to their responsiveness to bi interests.

[tenni]

“2) monogamy is wrong ( you and tenni )”

This has nothing to do with boycotting Pride events.
(usual illogical off topic BS from the above poster :)


Monogamy is not wrong. It is not necessarily right either. That is a heteromormative mononsexual, morality value. Personal choice that is not the best relationship style for bisexuals imo.


Bi Invisibility has nothing to do with marching in Pride parades. It is systemic avoidance, ignoring removing reference to bisexuality.
When is the last time that these Pride GL organizations corrected the comments in the media about a married (to a woman) man being caught having sex in washrooms as bisexual instead of gay? NEVER? Yet, the possibility of a married man (to a woman) is far greater to be a bisexual than gay if he also has sex with another man.

*I suspect that most bisexuals don't want these religious fundamentalist two faced characters connected to bisexuality though.

An argument that if bisexuals march with gays it raises their acceptance may be at the core of this thread though. The vast majority of bisexuals will not march with gays in a Pride parades. Clearly, marching in Pride events is not seen as of any benefit to bisexuals for a variety of reasons.

One point of this thread is why? Since bisexuality has been proven to be the largest group on non heterosexuals, clearly, most bisexuals do not adhere to gay political philosophy including marching down a street beside near naked gay men/women(in Toronto completely naked men except for shoes on), men in drag, dykes on bikes with bare breasts etc. Pride events do not meet the needs of bisexuals. Another factor is that many bisexuals do not identify strongly enough with bisexuality. Many bisexuals prefer to be invisible as far as using gay political strategies of the 70's etc.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

To each their own. Maybe if there were a Bi and About movement, or a Bi and Proud celebration put into place, more people would be more lenient to Gay Pride. But more folks are afraid to say anything or admit that they Are indeed Bi. So until there is more Bi awareness and public celebrations, why put down those who Arent afraid to show who they are?
I think we need some more Rodney King-isims in the world..."Cant we just all get along??"
My humble 2 cents worth.
Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

well gear, there are a lot of people in the site with out multiple accounts, some have them for multiple reasons... I am not one of them either

as I said, the things I pointed out, were barely addressed.... but they have been the basis of a number of discussions in the site and barely addressed by you.....instead they were basically brushed off, instead of the aspects being addressed which was the majority of the issues are ones that revolve around bisexual men.......

there is nothing wrong with a anti monogamy stance, but its the stance around other aspects that can show where a persons true stance lays.......


as for bi visibility ( the aspect of bisexuals not being visible ) NOT the aspect of people ignoring the existence of bisexuals ( which is what is being used in the thread as a weapon against the gay and lesbian community _...... the fact remains that unless bisexuals themselves, make themselves visible, they are invisible......

and in that respect, in NZ where I live, the people that put themselves out there as the people that lead the bisexual community of NZ, actually ignore the majority of bisexuals in NZ as a lost cause and not worthy of acknowledgement..... UNLESS the rest of the bisexuals in NZ can be used as a cash cow or for acknowledgement of the group at the top of the north island that portray themselves as the head of the bisexual community....... yet its the LGBT community that acknowledge us more and offer support and help.........

if we were not visible and vocal in the public, we may as well sit in the closet in NZ, but we are not doing that....we are being responsible for representing and maintaining a on going bi visible for the top of the south island, we are making ourselves visible as a beacon and stand out because we do not have the support and help of the top of the north island bisexual community which is bigger and portray themselves to be the voice of bisexuality......

yes we have people that refuse to walk in a pride parade because they are anti the LGBT movement, they are also some of the people that are vocal about bi visibility ( both aspects ) and how we are being rendered invisible...... yet they are the ones that are refusing to be visible..... so I have first hand experience when it comes to talking about being bi visible in the community and in public.....and first hand experience with the bi community that do not care about helping, supporting and making sure that the bi community is visible.....

I am not going to ask what you are going to do about raising the visibility of the bi community because you have already answered......

I know what I am going to do, how and where, I know the people that are going to oppose me and the bisexual community, oppose the LGBT community, because they have been doing it and they will continue to do it.... but majority of them will not take the bull by the horns and start a bi group and start to being about the changes they want to see, they will not stand up publicly and say what they have to say because each time that has happened, they have stormed out of meetings and groups because they can not answer what they are going to do to help make the bisexual community more visible, most of the time they just yell and scream about who they blame for it not being possible and not once do they look in the mirror and say that if they were visible and vocal with their voice, they would be seen and heard.....they would be VISIBLE as a BISEXUAL PERSON......

[Gearbox]

as I said, the things I pointed out, were barely addressed.... but they have been the basis of a number of discussions in the site and barely addressed by you.....instead they were basically brushed off, instead of the aspects being addressed which was the majority of the issues are ones that revolve around bisexual men.......
And what ARE these 'things' that you don't address that you say I didn't address.....exactly? I addressed you being vague, and am doing it again!:tongue:

there is nothing wrong with a anti monogamy stance, but its the stance around other aspects that can show where a persons true stance lays.......
Oh I know that sunshine. However many shoes a person claims to wear, they're always more comfy in one.


as for bi visibility ( the aspect of bisexuals not being visible ) NOT the aspect of people ignoring the existence of bisexuals ( which is what is being used in the thread as a weapon against the gay and lesbian community _...... the fact remains that unless bisexuals themselves, make themselves visible, they are invisible.....as for bi visibility ( the aspect of bisexuals not being visible ) NOT the aspect of people ignoring the existence of bisexuals ( which is what is being used in the thread as a weapon against the gay and lesbian community _...... the fact remains that unless bisexuals themselves, make themselves visible, they are invisible......
No. The visibility of Bisexuality is the issue of the thread, and the 'weapon' being used here is the 'closet'......by YOU!;)
It makes no difference if a 1000 bi's marched the street in a parade, if it's the sexuality that is being attacked by the gay community....not the people.
It's on a par with a 1000 Napoleon's in a Napoleon Parade. Nice parade.......but they're not really Napoleon.


and in that respect, in NZ where I live, the people that put themselves out there as the people that lead the bisexual community of NZ, actually ignore the majority of bisexuals in NZ as a lost cause and not worthy of acknowledgement..... UNLESS the rest of the bisexuals in NZ can be used as a cash cow or for acknowledgement of the group at the top of the north island that portray themselves as the head of the bisexual community....... yet its the LGBT community that acknowledge us more and offer support and help........
'Put themselves out there' as in 'OUT'. Seems like you are worthless if not 'OUT' in NZ. Another feat of utter shitiness by the LGBT. Bravo!:rolleyes:


if we were not visible and vocal in the public, we may as well sit in the closet in NZ, but we are not doing that....we are being responsible for representing and maintaining a on going bi visible for the top of the south island, we are making ourselves visible as a beacon and stand out because we do not have the support and help of the top of the north island bisexual community which is bigger and portray themselves to be the voice of bisexuality......
So ....be 'OUT' or STFU you mean?

yes we have people that refuse to walk in a pride parade because they are anti the LGBT movement, they are also some of the people that are vocal about bi visibility ( both aspects ) and how we are being rendered invisible...... yet they are the ones that are refusing to be visible..... so I have first hand experience when it comes to talking about being bi visible in the community and in public.....and first hand experience with the bi community that do not care about helping, supporting and making sure that the bi community is visible.....
Oh yes.....be 'OUT' or STFU and take the shite the 'OUT' members of the LGBT throw at you. Very clear of you.

I am not going to ask what you are going to do about raising the visibility of the bi community because you have already answered......
I actually did tell you, in a way. But I don't think you got that right either.lol


I know what I am going to do, how and where, I know the people that are going to oppose me and the bisexual community, oppose the LGBT community, because they have been doing it and they will continue to do it.... but majority of them will not take the bull by the horns and start a bi group and start to being about the changes they want to see, they will not stand up publicly and say what they have to say because each time that has happened, they have stormed out of meetings and groups because they can not answer what they are going to do to help make the bisexual community more visible, most of the time they just yell and scream about who they blame for it not being possible and not once do they look in the mirror and say that if they were visible and vocal with their voice, they would be seen and heard.....they would be VISIBLE as a BISEXUAL PERSON......
Oh yes...you're going to attack the closeted bi's as usual.;) If they don't do the 'OUT' thing, they are not worthy.
I wonder if you treat closeted gays & lesbians the same? I doubt it!
But of course there isn't a faction of the LGBT that denies homosexuality. NOBODY would be so utterly vindictive enough to prey on their choice to be closeted. They'd be respected, and the deniers treated as the bigoted homophobes they are!
I think you need to listen to bi's before they storm out of the room. Also read this thread better.

[tenni]

Language is an interesting tool. Why someone would chose words such as "bi visibility" and "bi invisibility" when there are official words (Bi Invisibility /bi erasure) is a bit of a mystery. Is the person attempting to layer and confuse the meanings?

True is the fact that bisexuals chose not to be as public about their sexuality as gays. (see how words may be used hopefully clearer). I don't think that there are any weapons being used against gays. There are statements about the benefits of taking part in Pride events or not. Some/most of these Pride events focus on marching with a banner. It has helped gays. Gays seem to have less reason not to march than bisexuals.(or more reasons to march. Some gays can not pass as hetero if they try) Are bisexuals "proud" like gays about their sexuality enough to march? It does not seem so as the numbers do not show it.

Why slur bisexuals about being in a closet(gay language) if a bisexual choses not to parade? Will bisexuals advocate for their rights like gays with methods not involving "pride" events? Time will tell but I would not put money on it.

[Long Duck Dong]

couple of things....

its the BI community of the top of the north island that refuse to acknowledge us if we serve no financial or political gain for them. its the LGBT community that are helping us with getting a LBGT group to the pride.... thats the COMBINED gay, lesbian, bi and trans network, NOT the BI network that work with gay, lesbian and trans groups... you got them confused......
there is two very seperate groups there... one is about community and is getting things moving, the other is all about themselves and doing nothing other than putting up opposition to progress........

Being visible is not always about being out..... its possible to walk in the middle of a pride parade and be closeted and visible, but unless anybody knows that you are bisexual, you are just one of the crowd......... so it still comes back to the bisexual community and individuals....

they can be out and clearly visible, saying we are here, we are bisexual.....

they can be closeted and visible in the crowd, but nobody is going to know that they are not gay / lesbian / trans / bi / straight.....etc....

they can be out and not at the pride parade but active in helping others to go....

they can be closeted and not going at all........

it only takes one person to carry the banner for the BI... they can all be closeted or out and proud.....only one person needs to show why they are there and who they represent, in order to have more of a voice and a presence than all of the people who were not there as a way of making a stand

at the end of the day, that is the persons choice..... so its not about bashing the closeted people at all.....and thats not what I am doing as even a closeted person can boost the bi presence at a pride parade why those that are ok and happy with being out and proud, can tackle the meetings and the critics, so everybody has their place....... but if we do not go to the pride parades, then its not the gays and lesbians that have effectively shut us down, its ourselves by not going......

not every body in a protest march or a pride parade, needs to have a name or a face, but they have the presence that makes up the numbers and as long as ONE person is carry the banner saying that is what that group represents, then it becomes known why they are there.... and I would rather have 100 closeted people at a pride parade with one person carrying a banner than 100 of them sitting at home in a thread posting hell no, we won't go...............

most of the unsung heroes of the fight for equality, same sex marriage and rights, will never have their names mentioned.... but in pics of the marches, they are the ones that made the difference between one person marching and 100k people marching...... most of our opponents are the unsung opponents, we do not know how they are because it was not their names we saw in their protest marches, it was the number of people there that we saw and heard about......

so you can try and make a difference by not going to a pride parade.... and I will try and make a difference by helping send close to 20 people to one and we will see who makes the bigger difference

[Gearbox]

so you can try and make a difference by not going to a pride parade.... and I will try and make a difference by helping send close to 20 people to one and we will see who makes the bigger difference
So after the 'If your are not out, you are shite' Parade, and bisexuality is still invisible, erased and confused for a phobia of 'out gay'.....what then?
How do you propose to tackle the the erasure of a sexuality from within the LGBT, where many are opposed to its visibility?

[Long Duck Dong]

simply and honestly ??? I am going to continue the work I do outside of the site with the LGBT groups .......and leave you and others to continue your war against the Gays and Lesbians..... and monosexuals and monogamy.... and guns.... and .... I can not remember the rest.....

how do I propose that people stop the erasure of a sexuality..... for a start, give them bisexual.com back and go create your own site for your issues with the gays and lesbians..... or the bisexuals may go create or find their own communities and sites where the borderline hate speech is not welcome.... and if they leave the site, well you can not blame the gays and lesbians for your behievour can you

[tenni]

So after the 'If your are not out, you are shite' Parade, and bisexuality is still invisible, erased and confused for a phobia of 'out gay'.....what then?
How do you propose to tackle the the erasure of a sexuality from within the LGBT, where many are opposed to its visibility?

Response
"I am going to continue the work I do outside of the site with the LGBT groups"

Missing in the response 78 is what the poster actually is doing to fight Bi Invisibility within GL organizations. It would seem to me that I have read some suggestions.

1/ Since bisexuals are the largest non heterosexual group, the Boards of Umbrella organizations like GLBT organizations need a clear large(majority) number of bisexuals sitting on the Board as part of the bylaws and constitutions of such organizations.
2/ These Board have within their education and advocacy policies ideas of pointing out the positive roles that bisexuals have played in history, make public statements when the media reports inaccuracies about bisexuals, advocate for more inclusion of positive images of bisexuals in movies, television and documentary etc.
3/ Insure that education and support workshops etc. provide services to meet the needs of bisexuals that are unique to bisexuals rather than fit in with "gay" workshop etc. needs.

Ask the poster how many of these three changes that he is working on? How many has he been successful on changing?

[Gearbox]

simply and honestly ??? I am going to continue the work I do outside of the site with the LGBT groups .......and leave you and others to continue your war against the Gays and Lesbians..... and monosexuals and monogamy.... and guns.... and .... I can not remember the rest.....
You've already pointed out your failings with bisexuals, your lack of communication, understanding of them and also your contempt for the closeted bi. But you'll just carry on doing what you're doing. This is the apathy towards bisexuality in the LGBT that the thread is about.:bigrin:
As you can not seem to accept that there are many gays & lesbians who ARE just as bad as hetero homophobes, it isn't surprising you claim there's a 'war' against them all. Monogamy & guns?:rolleyes: You want me to pinpoint why YOU should not be allowed a gun....again?


how do I propose that people stop the erasure of a sexuality..... for a start, give them bisexual.com back and go create your own site for your issues with the gays and lesbians..... or the bisexuals may go create or find their own communities and sites where the borderline hate speech is not welcome.... and if they leave the site, well you can not blame the gays and lesbians for your behievour can you
This is typical LGBT Gay Reich spiel - if you don't join us, you're against us! There is no discussion, no debate, no acceptance, no admittance and certainly no calling a gay bigot a 'bigot' coz that is homophobic.:rolleyes:
Your utter bollocks written here on a public forum, can and will be read by and contested or agreed to by anybody who thinks it's worth the wear & tear on their finger pads. Same goes for me & ALL!
As the LGBT is NOT above any criticisms either, same goes for that too. If you don't like it, tough luck!;)

[darkeyes]

Sometimes, Duckie, u seem to misunderstand what the site is about.. it is about peeps who have cares and concerns about their sexuality and who have something to say about themselves, their sexuality and those of other sexualities as well as the world at large..... and both tenni, for all the fact he makes me gnash me teeth at times, and Gear who makes me wanna forget I am a pacifist at others, have much to say and a lot to offer.. u may or may not agree but it is not ur place to tell anyone to fuck off and go elsewhere so "they"can have "their" site back... who are "they"? People who agree with u generally? And detest Gear and tenni? I doubt this site ever was what u or any of us wished for exactly... and I've been a member since a few weeks at most after it fired up....

..and guns? Well... guns are used to kill and lots of bisexuals and gay people are killed by them.. and not a few even use them to kill... I think guns is a very suitable subject for people to discuss on this or any other site which discusses human social issues.. it's a while since we discussed guns... and a while since we discussed war and capital punishment and world peace, and the environment and climate change, and conservation.and capitalism and bankers and the economy and feminism and rape and the many other issues we have discussed over the years and which of course shouldn't b discussed cos they don't affect bisexuals... ur not copping alzheimers or some otha form of dementia are ya to forget so much? ;) Lucky u have a national health service.... summat else of course we shouldn't discuss...

Personally I'd rather gnash me teeth and get really agitated (and honestly, I do both.. a lot) than stop peeps discussing such issues even if as I do, I loathe what is said, how it is said, and on occasion even the people who happen to say it.. I would rather listen to or read the most awful reactionary crap than have the gall to try and stop people saying what they think and what they believe.. and babes.. so should u and so should every other member of this site who believes in freedom of speech.. but some people claim to be in favour of our liberties and make a mint out of it.. while becoming very rich as they do everything in their power to stop those with whom they disagree having anything of the kind...

It happens I think both tenni and Gear are very wrong in what they say and how they think about Pride and they arent as right as they think they are about the lgbt or gays and lesbians...... so I get worked up and agitated.. but many bisexuals think as they... and many do not attend pride and will not for they have many of the same beliefs and reasons both Gear and tenni have... it is a genuine concern for the entire lgbt.. and serpently for every gay and lesbian since we are accused of things which whether there is justice in them or not we must address.. I may get hot under the collar but I am not offended.. maybe about tenni's flippancy a day or two ago and what I perceive as a homophobic comment which is not to say that I believe him to be homophobic.. but in general no I'm not offended... if we are to progress as a movement we must discuss these issues and the concerns of any lesbian, gay, bi or transperson.. indeed of str8 peeps who may or may not support us.. but principally those who are gay or bi or lesbian or trans... for it is they in whose interests we are supposedly fighting:)..

[tenni]

darkeyes
You generally are a very tolerant and intelligent poster. I raised three issues in post 79 that are a need and benefit to bisexuals. Your thoughts?

I was reading the Toronto LGBTQ1 or whatever organization's mission and vision and a few of its programmes. To its benefit it does not lock bisexuals formally out and the vision statements refer to on going needs of the community. This community is so diverse with all the letters, an issue is can it effectively offer programmes that suit the bisexual (in particular but non LG may also question it).

What I found was a programme meeting for GLBTQ1(whatever) that are over 50. Statements refer
"The Older LGBT Program provides people with opportunities to make deeper connections with their peers by socializing and learning through special events, guest speakers and promoting related community resources. The Older LGBT Program offers a weekly Monday drop-in with programming for older LGBT people in our community. Everyone is invited, regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation. Monday Drop-In times: 1:00pm to 4:00pm"

Realistically can bisexual peers include not just people in an age group but a sexual orientation and gender identity or do Bisexual men have different issues even from bisexual women..let alone a transwoman? The commonality is age for creating this group. The assumption is that there is sufficient connection and sexuality or gender issues do not create a problem. A married bisexual man who has just discovered his sexuality will identify with a trans man? They might have commonality and offer support but effectively?

To add to this the co ordinator is also the trans co ordinator. I know staffing issues make it necessary to multi task and the woman may be a wonderful and skilled person but in all honesty, I think that such groups end up serving no one effectively.

How many such organizations exist in Britain attempting to be all things to all sexualities and gender identity peeps that really are succeeding enough to march in a parade of pride? I'm sure that they try but married to a woman bisexual men are not going to be comfortable with someone(maybe a transwoman) telling him that he needs to come out of the closet like she did etc.

[Long Duck Dong]

Sometimes, Duckie, u seem to misunderstand what the site is about.. it is about peeps who have cares and concerns about their sexuality and who have something to say about themselves, their sexuality and those of other sexualities as well as the world at large..... and both tenni, for all the fact he makes me gnash me teeth at times, and Gear who makes me wanna forget I am a pacifist at others, have much to say and a lot to offer.. u may or may not agree but it is not ur place to tell anyone to fuck off and go elsewhere so "they"can have "their" site back... who are "they"? People who agree with u generally? And detest Gear and tenni? I doubt this site ever was what u or any of us wished for exactly... and I've been a member since a few weeks at most after it fired up....

I am not telling anybody to leave..... I suggested they make their own site.... there is a difference.......

its in line with what I have posted I have been doing outside of the site........ working with people to help create groups for people to meet, network, get help, support and advice..... there are a line I will not cross tho, I will not use bisexual.com to advertise the groups ( the reason for that, is actually because a lot of them have been here or heard about it and some of the members are people that have been run off or made to feel so unwelcome and judged in the site that some have left in tears... 17 bisexuals belong to one group I belong to and they have all been hounded from the site by the same person )

it would make no sense to me to advertise NZ LGBT groups in a site where there is very few NZ members and there is a strong anti LGBT sentiment.....so any advertising and sharing is done in sites where there is less of a negative reaction as that also means less of a platform for anti LGBT people to use for their own personal agenda.......

yes bisexual.com is a place for us to talk, discuss, share and debate, tho some people tend to view it as a place where they make the rules, not drew, therefore they decide who is wanted and welcome here or not, not drew and that has have a negative impact on the site..... hence why I have suggested that people create their own sites so they can make the rules around who is welcome and belongs and is bisexual enuf to have a opinion.....because the very people they want to be in this site, are the people that are leaving and going to other sites.... that is impacting on the bisexual site community and hurting the bisexual community as a whole........

so no, I am not saying that gearbox should leave at all..... thats another line I will not cross.... tho its been crossed with me a few times....... I help create groups, sites etc outside of this site and remain a member here..... I see no reason why that should apply any differently to gearbox or any other member........

[Long Duck Dong]

now.... what have I been up to.......

helped set up 4 LGBT sites, one failed because it was immediately trolled and hit with a DDOS attack......

helped set up the LGBT hunters and trampers group ( NZ wide with 14 sub groups, is open to non LGBT as well, to gain firearms, hunting and tramping experience, also has some active search and rescue members in the groups, was responsible for a recent op where they found a lost tramper )

helped create the local LGBT business group ( shared ownership of a loan company to ensure that LGBT have equal access to funding and loans, 3 LGBT B&B, one caravan park and a bar amongst other ventures ) group later splintered over division with the bisexual part of the group because of issues where the bisexual community would not support the bisexual only nights at the bar, they wanted to be in with the LGT nights..... the patrons wishes were respected, that led to bitching over how there was lil offered for the bisexual people, the group splintered, it is now reforming as a LGBT group again with new bisexual partners, the bar was sold as a ongoing concern to a lesbian and gay group, the LGBT nights ended.......

helped create the local unified schools teen LGBT support group, it runs outside of the schools using a youth club premises, all inclusive, was removed from the school premises after issues with a gay adult member of the group, using the group as a meat market........

helped set up and operate the LGBT gamers groups ( now linked with 37 groups around the world with websites and links to major games and support from the game owners and devs.....)

helped set up and create funding for the local LGBT community to get people to pride parades, groups, festivals and events.....

helped set up 7 local LGBT and L, G, B groups.... most of the LGBT and B groups have failed.... banning 4 people ( 3 bisexuals and one gay ) from the groups has seen a change in the * life * of the groups increase, as a end was put to the constant anti gay and lesbian stances... most of the meetings are now in private homes, ( one bisexual was arrested for vandalism and destruction of property at a local function center so the LGBT have lost the use and access to it )

provided funding for the local indoor cricket, netball, laser strike, and paint ball LGBT team, they occasionally have a sexuality versus sexuality tournament with hetero teams.....

looking at a combined fetish / LGBT coffee group and judging support for it..... not much support or interest unless its run as a hook up group, most of the fetish people do not want a hook up group....

helped to set up, fund and advice with the top of the south LGBT network which helps with counseling, support and information and event sharing for the top of the south, also includes assistance with funding, traveling, accommodation and works in with the loan centre that the local LGBT business group originally brought .....and it also is the LGBT mental illness and disability and elderly network and support

all of them are run as LGBT and L, G, B and T groups, so they have the combined support of each other but also their own sub groups where there is enough people to make it viable...... and the response has been very positive and up lifting, some of the groups have been featured in NZ interest shows such as radio and tv shows ( both current affairs and community interests ) and featured in some NZ magazines..... some groups have done the same around the world....and are gaining interest from other interested groups......

yes there are the nay sayers that are trying to say that we are doing it all wrong or we are not addressing the right areas or concerns or not addressing bisexuals and their needs... OUR answer to that is... * there is a opening for YOU to something then since YOU see the need and YOU want something done about it, we are doing our own thing *...... and yes I do expect the same thing to happen in this thread..... and the answer will be the same..... YOU go deal with it because I do not live in your country, I do not watch your tv, I do not go to your groups and I do not involve myself in changing your countries laws........I am doing what I can in my country for the community around me that I live in...

[Kissed by an Angel]

...I heard a rumour, LDD...

Do not try and make out you are innocent either.

Somebody who shall remain nameless, approached the NZ LGBT HQ with a vision of connecting the halves of NZ together. This would have the Top of the South community acting as the Southern LGBT network Hub to create a New Zealand network with access to services and information, events and organizations across NZ for the LGBT.

The story goes that the NZ LGBT HQ decided YES, and that the Top of the South group would come under the umbrella of the NZ LGBT HQ. The HQ run the media, website and the LGBT HQ. LGBT visibility events such as the Mr Gay NZ, Queens on the Quay, Big gay out are used as a means to make the NZ LGBT visible. All of this happens in Auckland at the top of the north island.
Funding that the Top of the South received, would be sent to HQ, any government funding and resources would go to HQ, HQ would decide what Top of the South needed as funding and services. Surplus funding would be retained by HQ for other LGBT ventures

The Top of the South group is a pool of community and privately owned resources and assets, capable of providing funding for services and community groups with a community / families first approach. A real cash cow for HQ

LDD told them to go fuck themselves and shove their LGBT network up their ass.

So the story goes......

And what is this I hear about Overwatch attending a pride parade in NZ ?

[Long Duck Dong]

ROFLMAO..... NO thats not what happened......

what did happen is that after a show on TV, we were contacted by the crew in auckland about joining them and becoming a extension of them..... I said I want to know more about what they have in mind..... because I had some very clear ideas that I wanted to see.... there was meetings and discussions, they laid out what they wanted which was

They handle any funding by government and official channels and decide where and when it is used......

We advertise thru their services such as the GNA, pink triangle, pink news etc etc....and we get discounted costs for the advertising...

requests for LGBT services and resources go thru them so they could ensure the needs of the LGBT community were meant.....

we set about setting up a cruise bar for nelson so that people have a place to hook up rather than rabbit island......
etc

my reaction was no fucking way......

they would not get control over funding because of the issues they had with their own funding and how they were using more many for the parades than they were using for LGBT community groups......what they did with their funding in auckland was up to them, but they would not use us as a way of getting extra money that we may never see......

we had our own advertising network, it cost us 1/3 of what it would cost us to advertise using their limited coverage sites and newspapers .... and I think the pink triangle went bankrupt.....

their * help * with LGBT services was not needed ( we had 3 independent LGBT counsellors and a psychologist ) etc, nelson lost their services because of the way auckland ran it.... and cut it off when they decided there was not a need for it.. and it was all run by the DHB

cruise bars ? nelson had 3, CHCH had a few, nelsons ones all went broke, chch lost a few then the earthquake fucked the rest..... we said we could provide trained bar staff but we would not do the cruise bar scene and as for rabbit island..... they have a short memory of how the locals threatened to start arresting the gay and bi guys that were having public sex out there and they wanted rabbit island ( a family pack ) turned into a gay cruising area....... there was no way in hell we were going to be involved in that place, specially with the police following up reports of gay and bi guys have public sex in front of kids......

I said that if the Top of the South wanted to unite with NZ LGBT, I was out...... we were never good enuf for them in the past and they were not offering us anything to further the support of the LGBT in my area.....most of the LGBT business group agreed, a lot of the LGBT groups agreed......

thats basically what happened.... it was not all me and my decision.....


Overwatch.... yeah they were at the pride parade 2014 and representing all NZ LGBT people......we supported them but as a low key aspect, no names mentioned type of thing.....

[Gearbox]

I am not telling anybody to leave..... I suggested they make their own site.... there is a difference.......
What you actually do is try to alienate me. Lets not pretend you are some Saintly moralistic avenger of the people.:rolleyes:
The anti-monog and anti-gun statements of yours was to incite the monog and American weapon owners to join you in your slurring of me. Also, your claims that 17 bisexuals have left the site in protest, was an attempt to incite Drew to think of me as a bad member here too.
This is a purely manipulative and deceptive manner you use to deal with ONE bisexual who doesn't see you as you wish. No surprise that the bisexuals who meet you in person, walk out on you.

So why is it that you don't dare address the issue of the thread about biphobia in the LGBT, yet are only too eager to slate bisexuals here?

BTW....due to your propaganda bollocks that makes me out to be some gay, lesbian & monogamist hater...
Last night I was with a biphobic, bi-erasing gay monogamist. There were no guns and wars going on. In fact there was chocs, nibbles, a bit of alcohol and a lovely evening of passion and lovemaking. That's not unusual.:rolleyes: Not quite the distorted image you'd like people to believe tho.
He was still a biphobic, bi-erasing monogamist when he left in the morn....but that's 'visibility' for you.

[darkeyes]

Response
"I am going to continue the work I do outside of the site with the LGBT groups"

Missing in the response 78 is what the poster actually is doing to fight Bi Invisibility within GL organizations. It would seem to me that I have read some suggestions.

1/ Since bisexuals are the largest non heterosexual group, the Boards of Umbrella organizations like GLBT organizations need a clear large(majority) number of bisexuals sitting on the Board as part of the bylaws and constitutions of such organizations.
2/ These Board have within their education and advocacy policies ideas of pointing out the positive roles that bisexuals have played in history, make public statements when the media reports inaccuracies about bisexuals, advocate for more inclusion of positive images of bisexuals in movies, television and documentary etc.
3/ Insure that education and support workshops etc. provide services to meet the needs of bisexuals that are unique to bisexuals rather than fit in with "gay" workshop etc. needs.

Ask the poster how many of these three changes that he is working on? How many has he been successful on changing?My response to ur poser.. I agree that probably, although that is as yet unproven, bisexuals are the most numerous of the queer sexualities.. probably, but we do not know for sure.. so what u suggest is that we remove power and authority from what u perceive is presently in error the dominant group, the gay and lesbian bloc, and give that power and authority within the lgbt to the bisexual.. a straight swap. wise move? Even if it was proven it would not be a wise move... for we see just how much resentment exists when there is perceived to be a power bloc of overwhelming power and representation... that resentment exists now even although no one knows for sure whether bisexual or gay are the larger grouping.. democracy, which is what we are discussing, within the lgbt is a far more complex issue than u seem to realise... where an overwhelmingly powerful grouping exists in any structure, democratic or otherwise the minority groupings will resent the power of the overwhelming majority.. the UK is a case in point. Arguably the break up of the Soviet Union was another... it would be an unwise move to simply reverse the relative position of gay and bisexual groups within the lgbt... a fairer and more equitable division of responsibility must be found which is responsive to the desires and aspirations of all sexualities and groups within the lgbt..

I concur with ur second point although I would say that this should be done for all groupings within the lgbt.. there are attempts at it now but these are patchy and I will accept that the greatest success has been with the gay and lesbian grouping, even although I think these are 2 separate groupings for gender is something else that the lgbt has to take account of... and similarly in respect of ur 3rd point, the needs of all irrespective of sexuality has to be catered for, but there are good reasons why within the lgbt that a division of education and support for gay, lesbian, bisexual (man and woman) and trans(man and woman) can be justified allthough neither should be absolute.. there will always be a need for unified education and support structures..... because we must ensure that the unity of the lgbt is maintained.. it is hardly perfect now or we wouldn't have this discussion.. but however good or bad it is, we should always consider ways of improving it to meet the needs of all...

[tenni]

At least in New York........
Some friends of mine who are active in LGBT organization politics do tell me that bisexuals get the short end of the stick. One organizer even went so far as to compile a report card to major LGBT organizations, grading them according to their responsiveness to bi interests.

darkeyes
I think that Jamie has made a very valid point and disclosure about the inequality of treatment of bisexuals in New York LGBT organizations. I missed this. Did you also?

darkeyes
The issue about the largest group of non heterosexuals is fairly clear that it is bisexuals. Several reports, including the San Francisco Human Rights commission of Bi Invisibility state that bisexual numbers are far greater than gays. The exact number is unclear due to the difficulty in counting bisexuals but it is clear that they are the largest group.

The issue of control is at the root of the issues in the San Francisco report. It accused the GLBT organizations of not providing proper services to bisexuals based on the concept that bisexuals are the largest group. The reason why there has not been a greater outcry of injustice is due to the nature of bisexuals. Many just want to blend in with the hetero monosexuals. The issue of “being out” like gays to fight for your rights is not being done by bisexuals.

As far as gay invisibility, the LGBT have done a good job at fighting this. Therefore, I don’t understand your point about it being done for all sexualities. So far, gays in control of money in the GLBT hierarchy have not done much if anything about Bi Invisibility. It is not about equality. It is about injustice and failure of these organizations fighting against Bi Invisibility.

As far as point 3 about workshop and services, I provided an example from Toronto GLBT organization known as 519(Church st) about a programme for 50+ people. They place them in one group and do not consider that bisexuals (for one) have aging issues that are different from gays. This is again at the crux of criticism about the umbrella. It applies strategies based on gays and expects bisexuals (and trans) to fit in. In this case, trans may have a better chance since the co ordinator is the trans co ordinator for the organization. I wonder if there is such a thing as a bisexual co ordinator? (the largest group) I know that 519 under the bisexual network has come to terms that bisexual men do not attend meetings at the 519 and needed a meeting place separate from 519 if they were going to be helped accept their bisexuality. The peer counselling group meets several blocks away in a more neutral medical building. So, 519 may be failing 50+ bisexuals but reacted to the demand /need for bimen to meet elsewhere. (there are mixed bisexual groups meet and bi women are comfortable meeting at 519 which is seen by the public as a gay place.

[Long Duck Dong]

gearbox...... you seriously need to chill....

the 17 people ? most of them have stated in the site who they have the issue with and its definately not you..... drew knows who the person is, some of them sent him a message telling him that they were leaving and why, others posted in threads saying the persons name and why......

unite the pro monogamy and american gun and weapon owners against you ? why ? they have had their say and moved on.... if they had anything more to say to you, they would say it....

as for who you want to have sex with.... dude, I really do not want to know and nor do I care..... I hope you enjoy..... but the saying, make love, not war, does come to mind

[Gearbox]

gearbox...... you seriously need to chill....

the 17 people ? most of them have stated in the site who they have the issue with and its definately not you..... drew knows who the person is, some of them sent him a message telling him that they were leaving and why, others posted in threads saying the persons name and why......

unite the pro monogamy and american gun and weapon owners against you ? why ? they have had their say and moved on.... if they had anything more to say to you, they would say it....

as for who you want to have sex with.... dude, I really do not want to know and nor do I care..... I hope you enjoy..... but the saying, make love, not war, does come to mind
I expect you do that coz it's in your nature to resort to underhanded tactics when you just can't resolve anything civily. It's also obviously your nature to be dismissive of blame. Yet you wonder why you have such failings with LGBT people, especially the bisexuals?

No gun totting American has left the site due to me. That's another tactic to deflect people having a good look at you. It's very silly!
As for my dealings with the biphobic gays, you either don't understand it, or you just don't want to. 'War' isn't what you'd have it be IMO.

[Gearbox]

Why would you want to be around someone like that, let alone have sex with them?
It's akin to having sex with someone that's homophobic or racist.
Coz I don't judge a person for their opinions, but judge their opinions by their beliefs. We all have those, and we'd be daft to not explore them IMO.
Wouldn't you prefer to know what causes a homophobic, biphobic, racist etc belief than just ignore those who cling to them?


Making love? LOL! The guy was a hook up.
Just coz you can't do that, doesn't mean that nobody can.;)

[Long Duck Dong]

lol ok gearbox.... well its been fun....but the thought that you are going to keep posting your sex life as a example of how you deal with biphobic gay guys, has me rolling my eyes...... maybe it works for you and tenni I have no idea.... but I would rather not read about your sex life so I am going to leave you to go play bi phobia bedroom battles.... and yeah... I am hitting the ignore button ......

play safe, be safe......

[darkeyes]

As best I am able to tell, tenni.. what u intend is to replace what u believe to be one much too dominant group by another... nothing u have said tells me that u have thought any of it through since it seems to be by what u have said that u are unable to see that even established successful groups will require education and support, and it is all too possible the erasure and invisibility of other groups becomes a fact as bisexuals flex their muscles once they have become the dominant sexuality within the lgbt and activities of the other now lesser groupings wither on the vine....... I don't intend to say any more on this thread.. I just leave it with u to mull it over and consider how we safeguard the rights and and aspirations of what have become de facto lesser and less influential groups? As best I can tell what u want is the boot to be on the other foot assuming that the gay and lesbian communities have it on the opposite.:eek2:.

[Gearbox]

lol ok gearbox.... well its been fun....but the thought that you are going to keep posting your sex life as a example of how you deal with biphobic gay guys, has me rolling my eyes...... maybe it works for you and tenni I have no idea.... but I would rather not read about your sex life so I am going to leave you to go play bi phobia bedroom battles.... and yeah... I am hitting the ignore button ......

play safe, be safe......
You are buggering off coz you don't have the balls to look at yourself, or the courage to be looked at....cartoon dog.:rolleyes:
Good luck looking down on those with a sexlife. Very appropriate of you.lol

[tenni]

darkeyes
I see in part your point. Democratically, the majority of an LGBT organization should represent bisexuals. An often maximum for a Board of non profits is 12. That would mean that democratically there would be seven bisexuals, one gay man, one lesbian, one transgendered and two other categories whether different sexualities, lawyers, city representative etc.


This seems fair by democratic standards but life gets complicated. Would seven bisexuals step forward? It might be better to state that bisexuals would represent five to seven board members. The question is how close is any representation of bisexuals on GLBT organizations boards by the bylaws or constitution? Some have said that bylaws do not indicate such bylaws or any reference to mandatory representations of bisexuals on these boards. The representation of bisexuals on GLBT organization's boards was a reccommendation of the San Francisco report.

[Gearbox]

Who says I can't hook up? Or that I haven't in the past?
Nobody did.

I did some in the past a few times but it is not my thing, and I don't like it. That's entirely different than 'You can't do that'.
........making love to them?

If you want to have meaningless casual sex or hook ups with all the biphobic gay men in the UK go for it. Nobody's stopping you if this is what you want to do for some strange reason.
Oh thanks.:rolleyes:

You do not have to have sex with a bigot to find out why they are bigoted.
Yes I know I don't. I have sex with them coz it's really nice.

Plus people who are homophobic, racist, biphobic, etc. do not even realize this about themselves and will just deny it if you tell them about it.
That's often true! There's always a cause tho. They are not 'born that way'......pun intended.lol

There's no sense in figuring out why these people are bigoted as it's their issue or problem and you personally are not going to change them.
Nope, I personally am not likely to change anybody biphobic etc. I have tried that until I'm blue in the face. It just doesn't register.:thumbu:
Doesn't mean I should shun them, or not take an interest in the reasons for it tho. I think it's fascinating.YAY!

[Gearbox]

No. I did a few hook ups in the past but did not enjoy them as much. Learn how to read and actually comprehend what you are reading. So you do not make yourself look even more foolish.
This is what you said - "Making love? LOL! The guy was a hook up.". And this was my reply - "Just coz you can't do that, doesn't mean that nobody can.;)"
That little two sentence convo was about you questioning making love to a hookup. Not ever having a hookup. Don't get a kindle!:tongue:

However, there are some people who are into sleeping with the enemy (bigots), and therefore acting as though it's OK for them to be biphobic/bigoted, or excusing it just because they want to hook up. You're one of them.
OMFG I'm in West Side Story.:bigrin: Well it kinda worked for the jets & the Sharks......so yu neva know!lol

[newlynymphos]

Well, Giovanni is a special kind of asshole! I just ignore him now!

[tenni]

Thanks Drew

newlynympho
He was a troll who has used other names such as drugstore cowboy, top fucker etc. Drew seems to have put him in cooling off and removed his posts . There is an unhealthy method to this or trolls like him. You are correct to try to ignore him if you recognize his post style. Gear clearly knew who he was and even called him by one of his other names....Gear's such a tease..like playing with fire eh Gear?

[jamieknyc]

darkeyes
I see in part your point. Democratically, the majority of an LGBT organization should represent bisexuals. An often maximum for a Board of non profits is 12. That would mean that democratically there would be seven bisexuals, one gay man, one lesbian, one transgendered and two other categories whether different sexualities, lawyers, city representative etc.


This seems fair by democratic standards but life gets complicated. Would seven bisexuals step forward? It might be better to state that bisexuals would represent five to seven board members. The question is how close is any representation of bisexuals on GLBT organizations boards by the bylaws or constitution? Some have said that bylaws do not indicate such bylaws or any reference to mandatory representations of bisexuals on these boards. The representation of bisexuals on GLBT organization's boards was a reccommendation of the San Francisco report.
Here in New York there is a certain amount of bad blood between the LGBT Center and the two bisexual groups that use its facilities. Even at the front desk, they react with a certain amount of distaste when you ask for the bisexual events.

[newlynymphos]

Thanks Drew

newlynympho
He was a troll who has used other names such as drugstore cowboy, top fucker etc. Drew seems to have put him in cooling off and removed his posts . There is an unhealthy method to this or trolls like him. You are correct to try to ignore him if you recognize his post style. Gear clearly knew who he was and even called him by one of his other names....Gear's such a tease..like playing with fire eh Gear?

I figured as such. I'm just not so quick on the uptake! Took me several posts and bitching at him to realize I may as well bang my head against a wall!

[Coastocoast]

Yea when you see 30+ mostly offensive posts on the first day he joined it is a little suspicious. My immediate thought it to post "Their back" but I just shut up. I am afraid the repeats by this guy has not made Drew's job easy as you do not want to bounce every guy that posts a lot / posts annoying things. Who knows what kicks are gotten by some people but apparently it fills some desire on their part.

[void()]

Some people simply do not want to know everyone else's sexuality. And
some of those do not care, it does not matter to them. What is private,
is private.

I do not feel a need to know Oscar Wilde was bisexual, or homosexual. He
was a good writer and that's enough. His sexuality, lack of it really is
of no concern to me.

This is where I find myself when asked if I'm "out". Those whom need
know, know. Those whom either don't need, nor do not want to know,
don't.

For me, it returns to dignity and respect. Apologies if this is seen as
fear or "hiding in a closet". I merely see no need to be "more out".

If I were, would it solve anything? I doubt it. Would it serve a purpose
aside from raising some hackles? Again, doubt it.

Boycott the "parade" or not? I have to remain indifferent either way.
Not been to one, see no pressing need to be. Just my two cents, fwiw.

[tenni]

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/4577777-pike-no-parade-but-pride-is-there/


Here is a newspaper columnist commenting on Pride events in a city that is in the shadow of Toronto. Toronto is holding the World Pride events this year. Hamilton is not having a parade due to lack of funds and lack of people with energy according to this report. Going to the website mentioned in the article and in the article itself, it seems that the events and language used is about the most visibly marginalized (queer disabled event, trans swim etc.) The use of the word “Queer” is everywhere. No where is the word bisexual that I found.

This shows me that these events are insensitive to bisexuals. These events are for those who adopt the “gay” language agenda when they use the word “queer”. You need to adopt the gay language if you are a bisexual otherwise you do not count. You need to stand up and be proud to be referred to as queer or you are not real seems to be the undertone.

This particular city’s GLBTQ organization has suffered under conflict for years but I doubt that the conflict was created by bisexuals. I heard rumours but the personality etc. conflicts but don’t know the details. There still seems to be two or three organizations claiming to serve GLBTQ but it seems clear that bi sensitivity is ignored. Most bisexuals will not go anywhere near these organizations unless the bisexual has acclimatized themselves to the gay dominant culture.

[void()]

This shows me that these events are insensitive to
bisexuals. These events are for those who adopt the “gay” language
agenda when they use the word “queer”. You need to adopt the gay
language if you are a bisexual otherwise you do not count. You need to
stand up and be proud to be referred to as queer or you are not real
seems to be the undertone.

Everyone can have their own opinion. Ultimately it comes to each
individual. Each needs to realize, opinion is simply that, opinion.

It is subjective and belongs to another. Why be remorseful, distruaght
over something beyond your control? Apologies, I'll control my opinion
and the facts I know.

Fact, bisexuals exists. Fact, I identify as bisexual. Opinion, I am a
confident and proud person with every right to respect, love and honor
myself.

The last could be a fact. We each are entitled to do as it states, be as
it states. So what if some Joe Dumbfuck wants to say you don't exist?

I could as easily say Joe Dumbfuck doesn't exist. Who is correct, who is
in error, who can say? If this "Truth" is too obvious, too blunt, well
it is what is.

[tenni]

"Why be remorseful, distraught over something beyond your control?"

I agree there is no point being remorseful. There is a point in standing up or being vocal about injustice. The question is whether bisexuals tend to do anything about the injustices. The gay philosophy seems to be to stand united to oppose repression etc. from the mainstream. GLBT organizations do seem to tend to stand up for the most visible of minorities. The issues (for me) is are the needs of bisexuals identical to gays, trans, people of colour, disabled non heterosexuals? Do these groups not have needs that are not able to be meet by holding one meeting for all and expecting the needs of what the GLBT see as the parts?

[void()]

"Why be remorseful, distraught over something beyond
your control?"

I agree there is no point being remorseful. There is a point in standing
up or being vocal about injustice. The question is whether bisexuals
tend to do anything about the injustices.

Still what one may see as injust, another may see as just. And I am
not saying it is just. Yet when all that humanity does is in direct
opposition of the natural order, what is left of True justice for any
one of us?

To paraphrase a bit, I think it is much to do about nothing. I return to
the question about bisexual porn. What is it? Is it porn with a bisexual
woman/man and a couple, or is it a two of same gender and then opposing
gender, all six?

Sex is sex and as a bisexual I enjoy nearly any porn, when taken by mood
to watch it. I have no preference regarding the porn. Seems akin to no
preference to lovers beded.

That relates to an issue of "binding together to fight against the dread
cause of injustice", because for me at least both seem trivial. These
issues are non-issues, simply because some fool corprate advertising
exec with no truck in the quandry has decided to make them issues. Gee,
can you smell the injustice there? :)

[newlynymphos]

Well, I attended the Brainerd, MN LGBTQ Pride picnic. I wore my 12" mini kilt, a very short 1/2 shirt, some sexy sandals, and my Pride belly jewelry :) Very bi friendly event :) My wife and I were even invited to some other events and parties with the largely gay groups :) Very nice experience :) Was receiving compliments on my attire and tattoos all day! Probably go again next year too :)

[Ebonybifemme7]

​Very good thread.

[tenni]

Well, I attended the Brainerd, MN LGBTQ Pride picnic. I wore my 12" mini kilt, a very short 1/2 shirt, some sexy sandals, and my Pride belly jewelry :) Very bi friendly event :) My wife and I were even invited to some other events and parties with the largely gay groups :) Very nice experience :) Was receiving compliments on my attire and tattoos all day! Probably go again next year too :)

Glad that you enjoyed yourself!

You seem to feel comfortable and felt validated.

Why did you see the event as bi friendly?

[newlynymphos]

Glad that you enjoyed yourself!

You seem to feel comfortable and felt validated.

Why did you see the event as bi friendly?

Everyone there that I talked to knew I was married to a woman, even though I wore a fairly feminine outfit (which got compliments from both sexes!), and there was a strong bi-presence there (one of my sex buddies helps head a bi-sex organization). If I'm not translating what I experienced there into words well, sorry. But as a bi guy, I felt very at ease there :)

[tenni]

Thanks for the post newlynymphos and I don’t see any need to feel the need to say sorry. Based on what you wrote, you felt accepted for your non conforming individualism. You were complimented for having the strength to express yourself and your gender individualism. Whether a bisexual man with less individualistic tendencies would feel as comfortable is unknown. I wonder if people would walk up and compliment a bisexual man in a business suit or jeans and a t shirt?

[newlynymphos]

Don't know, but I am bit of an odd duck, and seem to fit in better among other "outcasts" than i do among traditionally "normal" and more conservative people :)

[tenni]

hmm Is it the outcast individualism aspect that they were complimenting more rather than the bisexuality then?

Do these Pride events promote outcast individualism more than sexuality? Deviating from the social norm in attire and behaviour has become more important to celebrate? Although I respect your right to be an individual, I would hope not. Would you have felt as happy if no one commented on your attire but quietly accepted your right to wear what makes you happy? (chatting in a friendly manner but not one word about what you were wearing?)

[newlynymphos]

hmm Is it the outcast individualism aspect that they were complimenting more rather than the bisexuality then?Do these Pride events promote outcast individualism more than sexuality? Deviating from the social norm in attire and behaviour has become more important to celebrate? Although I respect your right to be an individual, I would hope not. Would you have felt as happy if no one commented on your attire but quietly accepted your right to wear what makes you happy? (chatting in a friendly manner but not one word about what you were wearing?)I do believe I would've left there with the same positive note no matter my attire. This event just allowed me to feel very comfortable wearing whatever I wanted :) Admittedly, I was the most risque dressed person there (yet with some class too :) ), yet didn't feel the least bit uncomfortable :) I like the attention, so I grab it when and where I can :)

[void()]

I do believe I would've left there with the
same positive note no matter my attire. This event just allowed me to
feel very comfortable wearing whatever I wanted Admittedly, I was the
most risque dressed person there (yet with some class too ), yet didn't
feel the least bit uncomfortable I like the attention, so I grab it when
and where I can

All in, it sounds as though you had great time. :) Would hope most such
events are equally as pleasant. Good hearing of your visit being so
enjoyable.

Come whisper more sweet words in my ear about these happy events, we may
convience that stick in the mud me to enjoin them. ;) Or we might not.
Nonetheless I would not mind hearing more over tea, in seclusion.

People always talk. :) Not saying I would close the door fully on
an event. Merely have difficulty seeing a need. That was until you
mentioned being at ease, with many people. I'll go tuck my fishing pole
away, now. ;)

[djones]

To reiterate the original point of this thread :


The Pride organizers - certainly here in NYC - are often dismissive to or outright excluding Bisexuals.


Fighting to be a part of the so called LGBT community only to face discrimination, Biphobia, erasure, etc. from within that group is counter productive to standing up for ourselves.


It seems the best way to stand for ourselves is to stand by ourselves - if those standing with us are not supporting, or are undermining, we are standing in the wrong place.


Not participating in pride is not about hiding and being silent as some have implied, it is about the opposite - not being silenced and made invisible by the rainbow that would rather we didn't exist. Boycotting is about being visible and speaking on our own.


A few things to add :


Boycotting Pride and the "LGBT" in general is not the same as fighting it or starting a war with it. It is simply saying "You don't represent me, so, thank you, but I'm moving on."


The concept that Bisexuals need a defined community is somewhat misrepresenting the situation in that Bisexuals are being judged on having a community and culture by a standard that does not really apply to us. Somehow, we are supposed to have a flag, a parade, dance clubs, etc. because the other sexualities that are not hetero have them. Frankly, the Bi flag is the product of following that mentality - and it is garishly ugly !


To answer a few assertions and questions :


Yes, I have participated in Pride events in the past (even drove a float in the Long Beach CA pride parade a few years back).


No, I am not afraid, ashamed, or embarrassed about my sexuality simply because I won't participate in Pride.


Yes, I have worked at promoting a Bisexual culture outside of the LGBT centre - for a period, I was one of the organizers of BiFi which produced social mixers aimed at Bisexuals in NYC - had a few fun events, but time and resources have taken their toll (but we aren't giving up on it !).


Yes, Bisexuals do have our own day of celebration - the awkwardly named Celebrate Bisexuality Day which is 23 September. If we didn't spend all our time and resources helping the pride people throw their party, we might have something saved up to get our own party on the map.


In short, Bisexuals can create whatever community or culture we need to without being measured by having a flag or a parade or whatever - by ignoring false standards. But we won't get there if we spend our time following leaders that don't want us for anything other than our numbers and financial support.


So, as is often the case, the original premise of this thread has meandered around a bit from the original course - and I wouldn't be too surprised if it was hijacked by design courtesy of a poster or two that seem to hi jack most threads. Sure, conversations take twists and turns, but diversion from topic and distortion of other's statements is not the natural course of conversation. I hope we can keep this conversation going in a broader sense as we really need to stand up for ourselves and show the world that we are not just a letter in an ever growing group of letters which has become the brand of ghettoized sexuality.

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree with you on a lot of these areas, Djones..... running LGBT groups or L.G.B.T groups takes a lot of time and resources..... its not a simple case of lets have a group and the group is created...... and there are always going to be people that are going to tell you that they know better than you how to do things.... but hey NYC is not where I live and what works here, may not work there......

the work that I and others have been doing, is not based around creating bi groups so that bisexuality is visible, its about providing the community / groups that are asked for by people that would use them.... otherwise its like creating a knitting group for wrestlers.....

yes, pride parades, the groups that we send, represent our community ( LGBT and L.G.B.T because THEY want to go and represent us as a community and their own pride in their sexuality ) it seems to be a hollow gesture to send people there that do not want to go for any reason other than bitch about how they are not represented by other groups....or have people bitch about how we should be represented when they are not representing us, themselves....... we do have people complain about the fact that there is no celebrate bisexuality day events in my area and our answer is simply there is not the numbers to make it work, previous attempts have cost us in excess of $20K and shutting down the main streets in town for a parade for 10 people is not something the council would say yes to..... so a day at the local park is more in line with what the community want, and the right to come along as supporters, friends and allies of the bisexual community ( something we said yes to as it gives numbers )

the flag ? yeah the lgbt community here have chosen to use their own patchwork flag made up of a lot of different patches that represent their community, rather than just their sexuality.... its created a bit of a backlash from some people over the idea that we are just lumping everybody in together..... but thats what the community wanted.... they want their sexuality represented but also the fact that they love other people that have different sexualities, races, cultures and interests..... even the bi community here are not really that hot on the bisexuality flag because to them, its not something that represents them as bisexuals so their flag is one of the rainbow with interlocking rings surrounding one large ring

[elian]

I think that if there is any forum for bisexual people to show their voice it would be during Pride .. have a bisexual float or booth with a very prominent sign, "Yes, WE DO EXIST" or some such thing - hand out purple and blue wristbands or big hoop earrings or whatever..

I guess I just sort of have a live and let live philosophy for sexuality and whole host of other things, as long as behavior isn't obssessive or very blatantly damaging to self or others..

Maybe even better - put up a sign - "Free Hugs!" - - hand out purple and blue wristbands or big hoop earrings or whatever..

..well yes, I suppose they could be big enough to be used for cock rings too, but that really wasn't what I was thinking of at first..

[elian]

..actually I sort of like LDDs idea of promoting pride in sexuality in general - the idea that most folks here in the US giggle like they are in the 6th grade at the mention of the word PEENIS is just funny. these are all parts that most people have seen before.. It's a shame that most folks think of sexuality from what they see in marketing..which is incredibly unrealistic.

[djones]

I think that if there is any forum for bisexual people to show their voice it would be during Pride .. have a bisexual float or booth with a very prominent sign, "Yes, WE DO EXIST" or some such thing - hand out purple and blue wristbands or big hoop earrings or whatever..

I guess I just sort of have a live and let live philosophy for sexuality and whole host of other things, as long as behavior isn't obssessive or very blatantly damaging to self or others..

Maybe even better - put up a sign - "Free Hugs!" - - hand out purple and blue wristbands or big hoop earrings or whatever..

..well yes, I suppose they could be big enough to be used for cock rings too, but that really wasn't what I was thinking of at first..

Again, the pride parade as a forum is counter productive. It's a fight and a struggle to get adequate representation within this forum only to be given the short end of the stick. That energy can be put to better use outside of the pride movement.

Know that the pride organizers in NYC chose a gay man, a lesbian, and a trans individual as marshals to represent the LG'B'T community in the parade this year. No effort was made to include Bi representation. This is the MO of the leadership of the LG'B'T centre and pride organizers in NYC. Why fight to be a part of a party that doesn't want us !?! Fight for our own voice, not to be a mouthpiece for those that would prefer we did not exist !

[tenni]

Thanks djones


You raise some worthwhile points.


“Boycotting Pride and the "LGBT" in general is not the same as fighting it or starting a war with it”

This is a good philosophical approach but I am uncertain that you have articulated standing alone will function. The issue of Bisexuals needing a defined community with symbols that the gay community have created is an interesting question. Bisexuals have September 23. On this bisexual web page rarely is there a thread about this day. Why is that in your view djones?

The issue of adhering to values and symbols that gay people have created to define bisexuals is a valid point. Yet, some posters do not acknowledge Bi Invisibility when presented in a documentary. They are more interested in bullying of gays and trans to reflect and empathize on than whether the silence coming from bisexuals is due to apathy or repression of self.

It is an interesting point that New York has representatives of all but bisexuals as parade marshals. In Toronto, I don't think that they identify the sexuality of parade marshals.

[elian]

A friend of mine saved a special insert in the New York Times that she was reading - it had a full article with the actual word "bisexual" on the cover of the article on the front page. First time I had ever really seen"bisexual" advertised prominently in anything but a swingers catalog..let alone any mainstream media.

[Long Duck Dong]

Again, the pride parade as a forum is counter productive. It's a fight and a struggle to get adequate representation within this forum only to be given the short end of the stick. That energy can be put to better use outside of the pride movement.

Know that the pride organizers in NYC chose a gay man, a lesbian, and a trans individual as marshals to represent the LG'B'T community in the parade this year. No effort was made to include Bi representation. This is the MO of the leadership of the LG'B'T centre and pride organizers in NYC. Why fight to be a part of a party that doesn't want us !?! Fight for our own voice, not to be a mouthpiece for those that would prefer we did not exist !

and who would represent and speak for us in a way that would not come across as a person that is actually supporting their own agenda,...... who would stand up and represent bisexuality as something that can encompass a sexuality that can have many aspects, many ways of being but one common trait, we are attracted to both genders......

maybe the bisexual community do not care who is standing on a podium... maybe the bisexual community want to go to a pride parade and represent themselves and bisexuality without all the drama and BS that is going on with the LGBT people that they have nothing to do with...... and if you want to start a war with the NYC LGBT group that run the pride parade, you go for it..... a lot of bisexuals will not back you up because they are not interested........its not that you are doing anything wrong.. its just that this is your fight and they do not want to be involved in it, any more than they want to be involved in some members constant rants about the lesbians and gays, monosexuals, etc etc etc....

the ability to represent bisexuality and bisexuals is not restricted to a person on a podium.... if you feel that we need a person on a podium, in order to be represented, then you are missing the fact that bisexuality is represented by the people that walk in the pride parade under their own banner that says, we live, love and embrace with acceptance and tolerance..... and they are more visible as representives of bisexuality because they can be talked with, hugged, kissed and loved.....

[void()]

the ability to represent bisexuality and bisexuals is not restricted to a person on a podium....

*gently nudges LDD from the shadows behind him, whispers* "There you are doing that thinking stuff again. Dag nab it hon, how many times they tell us both thinking ain't for us? Ah, now hush. We be alright." *fades back into shadows with a gentle chuckle, accidently on purpose leaves a wooden mug of rum on a nearby table*

[Gearbox]

and if you want to start a war with the NYC LGBT group that run the pride parade, you go for it..... a lot of bisexuals will not back you up because they are not interested........its not that you are doing anything wrong.. its just that this is your fight and they do not want to be involved in it, any more than they want to be involved in some members constant rants about the lesbians and gays, monosexuals, etc etc etc....
Ho hum! When somebody rants about lesbians and gays, that is coz lesbians and gays are not a special breed that are above criticism, and they CAN be just as bad as any homophobic bigot you'd care to mention.
Strangely, some don't like that pointed out, yet love to slur bi's whenever the chance arises.:rolleyes:

How comes you don't call the whole Pride event a 'war', but label any bi's attempt at doing the exact same thing a 'war'?
And where exactly do you get your 'most bisexuals' claim from?


the ability to represent bisexuality and bisexuals is not restricted to a person on a podium.... if you feel that we need a person on a podium, in order to be represented, then you are missing the fact that bisexuality is represented by the people that walk in the pride parade under their own banner that says, we live, love and embrace with acceptance and tolerance..... and they are more visible as representives of bisexuality because they can be talked with, hugged, kissed and loved.....
If any of that had an iota of truth in it, this thread wouldn't have got past the first post.
Obviously, marching in a LGBT Pride Parade aka 'GAY Parade', doesn't do much if anything to quash the bigotry within the LGBT. Being dismissive of it, doesn't help either. But I expect it gets you a hug & kiss from them at the Pink Flamingo bar, lucky you.:tongue:

[darkeyes]

Obviously, marching in a LGBT Pride Parade aka 'GAY Parade', doesn't do much if anything to quash the bigotry within the LGBT.
Actually it can and does quite often.. gays, lessies, trans men and women and bi men and women, and indeed many str8 men and women for that matter go on Pride parades and attend other pride events... they attend, they meet, they talk, they bloody well argue 2, but that's how it goes in moren just Pride, but remarkably often ther is a meeting of minds and getting to kno one or more of whom we r most critical, intolerant, suspicious and dismissive often leads to tolerance, understanding and acceptance.. have seen it it, lived it and preached it (in a kinda nice athiestic non priestly way).. it isn't easy ver often, and in fact is more usually fucking hard, but it happens and happens moren u and some otha peeps give credit... so I can accept much of wot u say Gear, even in the whole of ur post.. but sometimes about some things u do talk such tosh:eek2:... fostering peace, luff, tolerance, compassion and understanding, Gear, can be and is the hardest thing in the world.. wich is wy so ver few really care about achieving it and think they r better and more right than ne 1 else.... as evidenced by the sheer volume of conflict wich exists in this planet of wich this is but a small, minuscule, almost imperceptible part in the great scheme of human relationships:(......

[void()]

If any of that had an iota of truth in it, this
[thread wouldn't have got past the first post.

Well, this part rang true in my perception.


the ability to represent bisexuality and
bisexuals is not restricted to a person on a podium....

And it rang true as in saying to represent X does not require Y to be X,
or even empathize or care about X.

There are often cases for example where rich Anglo-Saxon i.e. whites
whom "slum" it and take stands for poor African-Americans, i.e. blacks.
The point being those shouting & causing a roar over an issue are not
even affected by said issue. They might be doing it for reputation,
money, sport, genuine concern.

Often, difficult to sort it all. Litmus test being to follow the money,
usually. To me, a sexual orientation does not seem to imply a capitalist
branded commodity, nor are people a commodity or a "resource". If the
great Ones of Power cannot objectify, commodity bisexuality make, earn
no profit they. And that is a scary prospect for them. It opens a big
door.

Shepard: "Look the bisexuals are not falling in line here, being part of
the commodity of the flock."

Foreman: "Well shit, if others see them doing it ... oh no! Boss! Boss,
we got trouble!"

We prove out that human beings are not to be trifled with as
commodities, stock, chattel. We do this the same as the act of living is
indeed a pure action, an act without being a reaction. This is important
for psychological reasons, it disproves Wundt (http://is.gd/9Yu3Lk)'s theory about human
beings warranting authoritarian "control".

This means we do not need the bullshit tyranny we live under. We can
return to being in harmony with nature, entropy. We no longer need to
create order out of chaos, and realize that "the divine", "providence",
"nature", "God" all fancy it being chaos out of order.

But then again, I'm a raving nutter. Best to cover your ears round me.;):2cents:

[Long Duck Dong]

hugs void....... I know we have to be careful, its the people like us that united the LGBT community at stonewall and look at what happened there...... I know that we are supposed to play * follow the leader * and fight back against the evil gay and lesbian empire using our secret jedi mind tricks and holding something long and firm in our hands..... but I am not sure how its going to work if if Darth lesbian and Sith gay man do not want us there, so we do not go to the parade...... it may be some secret tactic.... maybe at stonewall we all should have disappeared in silence and shown the evil crusaders how much of a force we are to be reckoned with, by being no where to be seen......

maybe a top secret meeting of the bisexual community at the local bathhouse or something with the secret cock jerk instead of the handshake......

pssst, void.... I have a insane idea.... how about we all get together for a dinner.... and invite our * gasp * non bisexual friends and spouses * and sit around and laugh, joke, giggle, pull faces... have a few drinks...... who knows, maybe it will catch on and more people may consider that to be a good and fun idea... then we can roll down the main street in town, roaring drunk and hug and kiss each other...... maybe grab a few bystanders and pull them in with us..... and have so much fun that we plan to do it next year...... tho it is a crazy idea I know and heaven forbid people may realise that we are bisexual and loving it... and that its ok to be bisexual and love it..... and they may join us next year.......

sorry, I got carried away in the moment a bit.... it seemed like a good idea...... maybe it may have worked...... but I know, we are supposed to support our own community first, not our friends, lovers, spouses, allies and the other people in our lives that make life worth living, and shun the people from the other communities because they are not us, therefore they are against us.......

no..... no... not doing it....

void, I love you, I like your wife, I think your straight next door next is hot, I want you to meet my heteroflexible partner, my lesbian / bi sister and her lesbian lover, my gay best friend, my gay flatmate....... I wanna party like its 2014, not not 1968, the year before stonewall..... where is the main street in town......

[void()]

where is the main street in town......

Round these parts it'd be state route 33. Though now due to all the hubbub of 911 EMS operations it's called something else.

A get together sounds like a great idea sometime. If we aren't wanted somewhere, plenty of world we can live in otherwise, least for now, still. Give them another 50 years, we'll all be fracked though. "Gotta get that natural gas to 'place the oil, doncha know?" *chuckling at humanity's futility* We never learn.

[Gearbox]

Actually it can and does quite often.. gays, lessies, trans men and women and bi men and women, and indeed many str8 men and women for that matter go on Pride parades and attend other pride events... they attend, they meet, they talk, they bloody well argue 2, but that's how it goes in moren just Pride, but remarkably often ther is a meeting of minds and getting to kno one or more of whom we r most critical, intolerant, suspicious and dismissive often leads to tolerance,
I don't think there is one single gay or lesbian going to Pride with any doubt that they will be Pride'ing with those who are tolerant of homosexuality. It's a different story for a bisexual.:rolleyes: They have no doubt that there will be non-acceptance. You'd think that in 2014 that no bisexual would would need to convince any member of LGBT that bigotry isn't very good. Or that these Pride events are supposed to be about acceptance.
Whatever the nice non-bigoted gays & lesbians have learned, they didn't learn it from any bisexual convincing them in a 'meeting of minds'. IMO they are just not taken by the spiel of those who are non-accepting, and just don't want to accept bisexuality.
NOT bisexuals themselves! But bisexuality.

I may be going to Swansea Pride in August, and wave my little bi-flag of defiance, chanting "Come and have a go if you think you're smart enuf!".:tongue: I just might do a float with a re-inaction of Hets kicking me out of one closet, and gays throwing me into another.lol It will be fantastic, and very tastefully done too.:bounce:

[void()]

I may be going to Swansea Pride in August, and wave my little bi-flag of defiance, chanting "Come and have a go if you think you're smart enuf!".:tongue:

ROFLMAO & PML Damn Cheshire spirit rallying there LOL Or maybe just universal Rascal. ROFLMAO Good on ya though. :)

[Gearbox]

ROFLMAO & PML Damn Cheshire spirit rallying there LOL Or maybe just universal Rascal. ROFLMAO Good on ya though. :)
I know better than to think I could make a difference. But could still have a laugh as I go about it.:bigrin: To have the most drama themed float would be a tribute to sarcasm at it's finest. Could put the likes of Dustin Hoffman and Merrill streep to shame! And after the latter's performance in Mamamia, she damn well should be ashamed.:rolleyes: