MH17.. a sick world...

[darkeyes]

This is sick.. I have never doubted my pacifism as being right.. and when I see this I am reinforced in that view 100fold.. wen I c wot is happening in Gaza too and elsewhere but this is really stomach wrenching.. even by the barbaric standards of humanity this takes the biscuit... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-joep-lange-among-up-to-100-aids-researchers-and-activists-on-board-flight-mh17-9613821.html

[nerdjack]

Even by the low standards of the Independent this is an incredibly absurd article. The 'cure' for aids doesn't rest with anyone person. Thousands of scientists are involved in the research, they all work in teams and they all share data.

So no, a cure for aids was not lost on flight MH17.

[darkeyes]

I dont deny much of that.. but can u say that for sure? Who can tell what was in the mind of any one scientist on that aircraft? U cant any more than I.. and that one scientiost may well have been the catalyst which set off those other thousands of scientists to find that cure... however.. while it is part of me point.. me main point was the barbarism of shooting down an unarmed aircraft whoever was responsible... if we consider Gaza which is also a very barbaric situation, while I may not agree with Israeli actions and think them awful, if we take warring as a way to settle disputes between nations (which I do not), a case can at least be made however weak and tenuous for it to bomb and invade Gaza.. I fail to see any justification whatsoever for shooting down a civilian airliner in circumstances such as has happened to MH17.. whether ther is any link to the other Malaysian airliner which disappeared no one knows as yet.. it may be unlikely but it isn't impossible.. time may tell..
As for the low standards of the Independent... it isn't my favourite newspaper, but it does have higher standards and greater integrity than most rags around the planet and all but one rag in the UK... but that is a value judgement and much, although not all depends on one's political viewpoint.. u and others may think differently if u so wish. I'm not fussed..

[void()]

Sick world indeed. Journalists can no longer do journalism, even would that they dare.


http://youtu.be/022aQy5b2wQ

[Long Duck Dong]

I am not going to defend the shooting down of a civilian aircraft but I am going to make a couple of points

1) if a person is using line of sight, its pretty hard to tell the difference between a military and civilian aircraft at 10,000 meters distance ( even trained soldiers can make mistakes )..... its easier to read a news report and be sickened and disgusted and question why it happened and who in their right mind, would do something like that.....

2) why was the area declared safe when it was known that people were firing missiles at aircraft.... that reads to me like a bureaucratic decision

thats based around military experience and understanding and not excusing what happened but explaining how it may have happened....

[darkeyes]

Don't think I have not been asking those questions, Duckie... and I kno others in better places than I will b... not 2 sure how close to an answer they or we will get however. Sound of peeps covering their tracks is deafening.. so don't b so fucking snide... and I put it to ya.. if peeps cant ID a potential target, I wud argue that in itself is a fucking valid reason not 2 have stupid insane things like wars and for peeps not 2 have access 2 things wich bring down aeroplanes... ther r of course otha reasons wy we shudnt... like human life being a bit more important than a little (or even large) piece of ground and serpently more important that any fucking cause! Even ne of me own.. wich is anotha reason I am a pacifist..... will b at close on 10000 metres mesel in a few hours.. I hope and trust our flight will b ID'd corrently... wudnt like 2 b case of mistaken ID after all.. dusn't matter how we die.. we r dead...

[Long Duck Dong]

a lot of people are asking the same questions, fran and it is looking like and more like the reason that plane was flying over the area, was simply to save the company, money.....

yeah... maybe human life is important.... part of the reason why Israel is trying to stop the militants and their rockets, after a crease fire failed because the militants made it clear they are not going to stop firing rockets into Israel..... tho I am watching with interest, the people protesting against Israel for trying to stop the rocket attacks..... it comes across as if its ok to fire rockets at people that wanted a crease fire, but not ok for people to say we are going to stop them firing rockets at us because they are not interested in a crease fire.... and notice that I am not going into who did what to who, when and why..... just the simple facts of people that are against the fighting, taking the side of the people that refuse to stop fighting.

[theartofcontrol]

As long a the psychotic of the world are more inclined to seek leadership in both business and politics our problems will continue. That's not changing soon. This is another example of the many innocent deaths happening world wide as we let them lead.

[tenni]

In Canada, the reports stated that the plane was flying above 33, 000 feet which is considered outside of the banned flight area. The banned flight area was up to 30, 000 feet due to the Russian supported fighters activity. This route was a commonly used route. Prior to the shooting down, the Russians had been avoiding the Easter Ukraine flight route for days. Questions are asked how much the Russian air traffic controllers knew and why only the Russian planes were avoiding the route.

There were two other planes flying this route. One was in the same direction as the downed plane but a couple of miles away while the third plane was flying in the opposite direction as the downed plane and again a few miles away. I forget the nationalities of those airlines.

Questions are raised about why this route was not closed after a Ukranian military plane was shot down around 30, 000 feet. It should have been clear that sophisticated rockets were in the hands of the rebels.

My thoughts are that Putin will escape prosecution just as George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have avoided being charged with war crimes due to being leaders of a powerful countries. The shooting down of a commercial plane by the US over Iran in the 80's led to no convictions or even charges either. Apparently, five commercial flights have been shot down since the 1970's.

I don't know why I feel such sadness for these deaths but I do. Maybe as dark eyes suggest it is the possibility that this could happen to any air traveller. The damage to the bodies in some cases is horrific. This is the third day that the bodies remain on the site without refrigeration. Today, body bags are being shown though. One reporter reported being shown a lower torso and was visibly shaken as he was on air. The lack of co operation in the area is disturbing. I'm sure though that the average Ukranian living in the area are disturbed. Even the rebels individually seem concerned but are ignorant of retrieval procedures and seem poorly educated(dragging bodies around on the ground)

[darkeyes]

.. sometimes, Duckie, those who refuse to stop fighting have right on their side and those who wish the end of that fighting wrong.. that is not to say that the fighting and violence is right, but it is to say that the cause often is...

[Long Duck Dong]

to me, that can be a compromise of belief..... but it is really no different to the way I see things... war is a tragic and painful reminder that sometimes we have to fight wars in order to have the peace that people talk about and wish we could have.....

war is often the same, one side is fighting to take control over a area and impose their ideals and rules on others... the other side is fighting to preserve their own way of life and to be left in peace..... the same fight, is fought on a daily basis, from who has the right to smoke and who has the right to stop them smoking, to who has the right to make the rules in a relationship and marriage.... and if I may be so bold, its actually civilian life that has the higher cost in lives lost and personal cost

Peace is a illusion that only exists in situations where nobody stops us doing what ever we want to do and does not try and stop us......and as long as we can not see the full effect of our decisions and the impact on the people around us, we will never understand how we do not create peace and harmony, we just create a reason for others to fight back....

its why I do not fight for peace or believe in it... only that it may be possible to be content with the fact that I may make ripples in the pond of humanity while others make the waves that swamp boats.....

MH17 is something that should have not happened but it did.... and rather than want to hug those that are left behind to hurt and miss people.... we go looking for heads to roll..... will we never learn ?

[darkeyes]

Ahhh.... the military man who does not believe in fighting for his cause even when losing and facing the inevitable.. that doesn't tie in with my memory of things u have said in the past, but no matter. War is no such thing as u claim it to be.. we have to do no such thing:eek2: We fight wars for the benefit of those who have power and who are the elite of nation or group or indeed capital.. for their aggrandisement.. or to gain that power for other elites. It has nothing to do with giving people the peace to be able to talk about and wish for peace.. save of course for the elites that rule us to have the peace to do whatever they like with us or some other often far away people and their resources.. wars are fought for the few of that elite not for any defence of our sacred way of life or the benefit of the masses..

..and war is often as u say it is.. and in respect of the Palestinians of Gaza and the west bank, of those still in Israel..just who is imposing what on whom:confused:

Peace, true peace is at present an illusion ur right... but it is a dream most of us have and it is achievable.. it is not about stopping us all from doing our own thing.. true peace is about humanity co-operating and living together in common cause by compromise, tolerance, understanding and compassion.. of no single group dominating but all people working together to make a better world for all. I don't disagree with ur analysis of the difficulties of achieving peace and harmony.. it is only by working together that we can ever hope to achieve the harmony and understanding and make the necessary compromises for our species to make true peace with itself, its kind and the world about it..

Many believe the dream of peace is impossible.. ur not alone. But once people believed the electric light, radio and television were impossible, flying or going to the moon, sending man made objects out of our solar system and many other impossibilities.. yet they were achieved... achieving peace is so much harder than any of these yet not impossible... I just cannot bring myself to believe in that as an impossibility...

..and finally in respect of MH17.. of course we would all love to hug those who have lost loved ones on that aircraft.. yet what greater hug could there be than bringing those responsible to book, making them face up to their responsibility and realising that the world will not tolerate such barbarity and insanity? That actions have consequences and they are not always nice and to our liking... it is not a matter of revenge although there are those who will see it in those terms..., it is matter of making sure that as far as we are able, we create the conditions in this world where no-one will do any such thing again.. and should it ever do so, that there will be consequences... heads should roll wherever there is responsibility whether those heads are politicians, airline executives, air traffic controllers, soldiers or rebels and lessons learned...justice should be gained for the victims and their families.. that is the greatest hug of all....

[Long Duck Dong]

yes, fran, I know about your understanding of war... and the way you have tried to paint people according to your understanding of how they think rather than acknowledging that many vets do not think that way at all..... so why fight with you over your lack of understanding.... I would rather just sit quietly and let other people roll their eyes at you.....

I am not sure what is more amusing... your lack of understanding about why military people do what they do, or your belief that we do not know why we do what we do

[void()]

Here let everyone spread this as fertilizer instead of any further bull dung.


http://youtu.be/sd0SN0ID_xU

Seems to make damn good sense. Think I'll refuse taking sides as well.

After all if "they" decide to have a war, what happens when no one shows up to fight it?

We are all one family. Gear sort of prodded at me with a question in another thread.

His query was what bisexuals would or could stand for if indeed we stood. Well, let

us stand for unconditional love and not label it anything beyond love. Let us stand for

refusing to justify murder for any cause and call murderers what murders are, monsters.

Let bisexuals stand to be shields and swords against monsters using love as both shield

and sword. And no, I'm not the "ring leader", the "martyr", the "messiah" or any sort of

that crap. I am just a guy who is tired of the bull dung of schism, tired of blood flooding

the world for ten cent causes what are only worth two cents to begin with. I am tired

of violence, hate winning, tired of darkness. I choose to light a candle. "They" call for

war? Fine, let them call all they want. Sorry I have gone deaf to "them". Let us ALL have unity

instead. What is to fear in that? Let us ALL realize we ALL have and continue to contribute to

the world going to shit. Let us ALL begin to try fixing it using ideas from ALL of us. Let us give total

freedom to ALL of us. Lets us ALL own ALL of the world but none of it. If you don't get it it yet, let

us adopt the policy that ALL IS ONE, ONE IS ALL.

[darkeyes]

I sit here in me m8s garden under tree in shade.. its peaceful quiet only some cows for company in field at the back.. and I think wot a wonderful, beautiful world.. and I think of how it is messed up by conflict after conflict because u and people like u buy into the propaganda that ur masters give ya.. it may well be me who lives deluded about why human beings have to keep slaughtering each other... but I very much doubt it... I know the delusions people live with and the lies they die for.. in a week or two we will commemorate the 100th anniversary of one of the worst of all conflicts where 15 millions lost their lives dying for King and country... the first word of that very term should tell us something of just who people die for....

I am not a pacifist for no reason.. pacifism is seared into my family because of the hell my ancestors a century ago went through a century ago... it is seared into us because of our family history.. my father was raised in a pit village in the Kingdom of Fife.. between 1914 and 1918 that small village of less than 600 souls lost 50 men dead and missing on the fields of France and far more wounded or maimed.. my father's own family alone lost 7 of that number dead and a further 2 have never been found... and bad as that was, my family were by no means the worst affected... not all the survivors of that war from that small village became pacifist but even those who did not, knew on whose behalf that war was really fought and why... and their descendants know just as well in the modern era.. not all of my family became pacifist either although after 1945 that number jumped somewhat... our understanding of why war is not as urs even those of my family who are not pacifist... they know for whom and why they really fight and die... they may fight for themselves or in defence of family.. but they know that the major reason they fight and die is in defence of those who rule over us and to further their interests...

U believe me to have no understanding and that's ok... but I would argue I have more understanding than u think .. that it is a different understanding from ur own I cant deny and am glad of it... but it is an understanding that I hold to dearly.. I'd rather have my understanding than what I consider to be ur delusions..

[WebothBbi]

And the recent news stating the rebels have both looted the wreckage, but also took the bodies from the team sent to recover and investigate the wreckage, possibly in hopes to ransom them off to the families and/or their countries of origin? That hits a level of depravity that I didn't think I'd ever see or hear of in this lifetime. Oh those poor families of the dead. First their massive losses and now to have their dead loved ones desecrated like this? It sickens me

[darkeyes]

There are so many stories published in the media and on the web, and told on box and radio about MH17 it is difficult to distinguish truth from fiction.. but it serpently leaves nasty taste in the mouth and a nasty smell in the nostrils.. 1 thing is certain.. we r being lied through the teeth to and not just by Russians and rebels... the British and American govts are so used to lying through theirs we just don't know when if ever they tell us truth.. and that comes from the men at the very top of both governments.. as it has throughout my lifetime.. except wen we had a woman at the top... and she cud tell porkies as well as ne man wiv nary a bat of the eye:eek2:...

[dm330]

I read an article about this yesterday, but a comment struck a nerve with me. The comment referred to a former politician named R. Budd Dwyer, and I'm not sure why, maybe it was because of the fact/fiction fiasco going on with this particular story. Curiosity got me as to who this Budd Dwyer person was, so I Googled his name. Rather than read about him first, I chose to watch a youtube video of his final speech. It hit me pretty hard that this man pulled a gun out and shot himself at the end of his speech and that youtube actually allows the end of the footage to be published. It's a little off topic, I know, but it does illustrate what a sick world this can be. I believe most of the sickness comes from our political leaders and media who feed into this garbage on a daily basis.

[void()]

I read an article about this yesterday, but a comment struck a nerve with me. The comment referred to a former politician named R. Budd Dwyer, and I'm not sure why, maybe it was because of the fact/fiction fiasco going on with this particular story. Curiosity got me as to who this Budd Dwyer person was, so I Googled his name. Rather than read about him first, I chose to watch a youtube video of his final speech. It hit me pretty hard that this man pulled a gun out and shot himself at the end of his speech and that youtube actually allows the end of the footage to be published. It's a little off topic, I know, but it does illustrate what a sick world this can be. I believe most of the sickness comes from our political leaders and media who feed into this garbage on a daily basis.

Know it may sound/seem a bit simplified & do not merely take my opinion/belief for
it as gospel. Research out what I'm going to suggest. Think you will find like me and
a growing number, if we abolish money and come together as one family, a lot can be
made right/better/equitable for all.

Here's a quick quote for you from someone who was likely a polymath.


The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said
"This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that
man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars,
and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one
have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch,
and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you
are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to
us all, and the earth itself to nobody. — Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
Discourse on Inequality, 1754

Yet we still insist upon private property to this day. And this
furthers the cause of money, which in turn furthers coveting,
greed, fake scarcity, war.

Do not misunderstand me. I believe everyone should have access
to what they need, when they need it. Let us imagine a situation
though. Suppose your neighbor had this really hot car. You saw it
and thought you ought to have one like it. Well, if all cars were a
freely available resource to all, would you even bother thinking
about how to fleece, steal your neighbors car?

Probably not. You would probably go get a car for yourself as
they are all free for everyone. You might also be less likely to
beat up the guy with the trendy new shirt to take it from him.
You could go see a doctor and not be afraid of losing your
house. Of course, there is a minor catch.

You and everyone over say the age of eighteen are required
to contribute twenty hours a month to your local community.
You can go down to the bakery and help bake bread, pies. You
might go help wire up a house for a new neighbor. They might
find you being the doctor for an afternoon. Just do something
for five hours each week which helps out in the community.
You choose, you always choose. You volunteer.

The only compulsory aspect is twenty hours a month in
service/labor to the community. For that you get free housing,
clothing, electric, food, medical & dental/vision, access to
all community goods and services freely.

Without money there is no need of coveting, no toe hold for
greed or corruption. No status beyond merit, no merit save
realizing equity. No needless suicides.

Like I said it is simple. It is even idealistic. Nonetheless, go
check it out yourself. Or, simply ignore it. And realize while
responding to you, I am speaking everyone in general. No
offense is intended in doing that.