How to Reduce Bigotry Against Bisexual Men

[spartca]

In a bunch of other threads we've discussed how society is hostile to men's bisexuality in particular.

I'd like to start a thread talking about what steps folks are taking out there to reduce bigotry against bisexual men?

I totally agree that knowing all the intricacies of how this bigotry operates can help us to create ways to counteract it. In this thread I'm hoping we can focus on the creative solutions rather than just bemoan the problem. Thanks! :)

[Long Duck Dong]

lol I don't try and change peoples opinions about bisexuality or their bigotry....

to me thats like trying to show the equality of all races to the white supremacists

what I do, is challenge people to look at their opinion and see if their opinion *holds water *

its a bit like the opinion that all gay men have anal sex...where is the proof that the opinion is supported by the facts.... lol just a quick look around and studies can be found that show that no all gays have anal sex....
but people don't like to face the fact that their opinion is flawed.... so they make the blanket statement to support their opinion

when i come across people that say that all gay men have sex, I ask if they class me as gay or bi......and correct them if they say I am gay......
then I break it down, yes I am bi ( actually I am pansexual )...I am celibate, no I do not sleep with anything that moves.... no I am not unique......etc etc
I then reverse the statement and say that all heterosexuals are exclusive in relationships and monogamous.... and point out to the person where they are not exclusive or monogamous, using the persons own life......

I then show them how our lives are near identical......and that yes gay man have anal sex, but so do hetero men....

if I am lucky, the person stops and questions their own logic and opinions....and it can balance out, other times people just get aggressive and nasty

thats why i always say, that you can change the laws, you can change peoples understanding, but you will never change the biased people.... they need their hate, to justify their existance....

[spartca]

So, sounds like you use the Socratic method to work through their position in a rational way: "Gee, so let me see if I understand what you're saying..."

Also, it sounds like you do a bit of psycho-sexual education to broaden their understanding of sexuality: "Actually, not all queer men have butt sex..."

Lastly, you show how we're all just people, no matter what we do in bed - building our commonality as human beings.

These seem like three really great methods to me!

Keep 'em coming, I love it! :)

[flexuality]

"A man convinced against his will.....is of the same opinion still."

You're talking about trying to 'change' what people think, feel and believe....and it is not possbile to do that for anyone else...hell, we have a hard enough time trying to do that for ourselves!

I don't think there are creative "solutions" for this as such.....it is a process and I believe that the first step in that process is to take the timber out of our OWN eye before trying to remove the splinter in someone else's.

Bisexuals can't even agree on a "definition" for bisexuality....how are we going to reduce society's bigotry against bisexual men if the bisexual community is at odds as to what a bisexual man is?

Some say it requires the physical acts to be considered bisexual....others say it requires just the attractions to both sexes.....some say if a man is married, he's not 'truly' bisexual.....and on and on it goes.

Personally I think that the bigotry that would be better to address, would be the bigotry against ALL sexuality.

We keep trying to "pigeon-hole" all these sexualities....it's kind of like trying to pigeon-hole personalities or fingerprints. Everyone is different and unique and while we all share commonalities in various respects we still understand and (hopefully) appreciate the differences.

In my opinion, sexuality is the same way. It is different and unique for each and every person even though we share common traits sometimes.

As long as how we express that sexuality is moral, legal and ethical and doesn't hurt anyone or become abusive, then maybe 'defending' the labels wouldn't be such a need.

[spartca]

Flex, I totally agree with you that a person really has to do the changing for themselves. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

However the Civil Rights movement illustrated how it's possible to change the social acceptance of bigotry, in that case bigotry towards African Americans. As it became less socially acceptable to be racist, then more and more people moved away from their racist beliefs. It's a long and uphill process for sure, but social change can and is accomplished with some hard work and planning.

Bigotry usually stems from ignorance, as Long Duck Dong pointed out. So exposing people to different ways of looking at things can be one way of breaking them out of their ignorance. Expanding their options, if you will.

As you suggest, sex-positivity is something we can practice in our contact with other folks that can help to expand people's consciousness around sexuality in general. That's a great suggestion, and one that I'm sure would be helpful in reducing bigotry! Another great example of building commonality on that "we're all human (and sexual!)" level.

At least up to a point. There are a lot of "sex-positive" groups I've been a part of that are very pro-sex, and yet continue to perpetuate bigotry and discrimination against bisexual men.

I've come to realize that unless there are queer men involved in the leadership of any sex-positive group, it runs the risk of perpetuating mainstream biases against queer men. Lots of swingers clubs for example, have "no male-male sex" rules.

I'd love it if we didn't need the labels, but until queer men are a group that's not categorically discriminated against, then I will continue to find the distinction useful to work against this discrimination.

So I'm all for sex-positivity that is categorically inclusive of queer men! Sounds like a really great thing to me - especially when considering the original question of how to reduce bigotry against bisexual men. :)

[the sacred night]

I volunteer with my university's LGBTQ reaource center and I'm active in the Gay/Straight Alliance. In both of these efforts, I try to maintain the visibility of bisexuals and transgender people because those groups are marginalized within the LGBTQ community. I make sure the language of our bylaws reflects this diversity, I make sure to be inclusive when I talk about who uses or can use the resource center, I make sure we have resources geared toward these groups' issues, etc. Overall I just don't let people forget that Bi and Trans people are part of the community too.

[spartca]

That's awesome! What a great way to reduce bigotry towards bisexuals within the queer community itself.

Question for you: Are there bisexual rap groups on your campus? Often I find that women have a women-only bi rap group, and then bi men are sort of lumped in with gay men. Kind of like a punctuation mark: "Gay and bi men." LOL

Anyways, I always felt out of place not having a specifically bi group to go to as a bi man at LGBTQQIAA etc. centers.

I know that for a lot of men who have been previously straight-identified, it can be pretty intimidating to go to a gay men's group, for two reasons:

First of all, there's a huge mountain of internalized homophobia to deal with that would best be handled differently than for your typical gay guy - since often bi men are still dating women. Things can be a little more complex there. Also this homophobia may prevent them from ever wanting to identify as "gay" per se. Plus a lot of the younger set are coming out now as "queer," "genderqueer," "genderfuck," "pansexual/omnisexual/mesexual/trysexual," etc. and not embracing either label of gay or bi. So they may never show up for this reason.

Second of all, my experience is that coming out as a bi man can be met with a whole crapload of resistance from gay men. Gays and lesbians can almost be worse than straight folks when it comes to policing monosexuality: "Who are you kidding girl - you're GAY, mmm-kay? Get over yourself and stop trying to pass as straight while you're sucking cock all over town."

That's why a mixed-gender bi group, a men-only bi group, or even a "queer and questioning" men's group would help to address that original question of "how to reduce bigotry towards bisexual *men*" specifically within the queer community itself.

Thanks for the great post, the sacred night! I've often thought about this very issue :)

[flexuality]

....LGBTQQIAA .....

Damn! That just keeps getting longer and longer!! LOL!! :eek:

Next thing ya know we'll have Superkalifragilisticexpialidociousuality!! And then the LGBTQQIAAKKEEJDNFOWLREOKEJSODJDKNFKJDSKCZPWHQ :bigrin:

[spartca]

An acquaintance of mine refers to us as the "giblets" - like the leftover parts from a turkey lol. I think that's why they don't use GBLT anymore! :rolleyes:

[DiamondDog]

Like long duck dong I also don't try and change people's opinions about bisexuality or their bigotry.

I let people ask any questions that they want to ask me and no question offends me or is taboo. I tell them that I don't claim to speak for all bisexuals but just myself and some of my friends that are bi, what I've experienced, and what I've had friends tell me about themselves with their experiences.

Like LDD I honestly don't care if someone thinks that I'm gay as I know what I am.

I get questions such as:

Who do you prefer, men or women?
Would you marry a man?
Do you like to kiss men?
What's it like kissing a man?
Ever have a 3 way?
What sort of 3 way would you like to have?
Can you be in a closed/exclusive/monogamous relationship?
Were you always this way?
Are you still bisexual?
What sort of porn do you like?
If you had to be on a desert island with only one person of one gender for the rest of your life, who would you pick and why?
Did you always know that you're this way?
If you don't do anal sex with men what types of sex do you do?
When was the last time you were with a woman sexually?
What's it like dating and having relationships with men?
What's it like dating and having relationships with women?
Does a vagina ever gross you out?
Who do you see yourself eventually settling down with, a man or a woman and why?
Do you relate more to the gay world or the heterosexual world?
Do you want a man and a woman all the time sexually?
Can you put your attractions to men and women into ratios or percents?
What are your sex dreams like?
Why do you like bondage and SM?
Why do you like leather?
Why do you like denim?
Why don't you find twinks or men who look like Ken dolls to be sexy?
How many men have you been with sexually?
How many women have you been with sexually?
What's the kinkiest thing you've ever done?
Do you fall in love with men?
Do you fall in love with women?
Are you a top, bottom, or versatile for oral and anal sex?
Are you a dom, sub, or switch for BDSM?
How often do you get tested for HIV and other STDs?
Have you ever done watersports or stuff with piss?
What type of men are you into?
What type of women are you into?
What turns you on about men and women?
What turns you off about men and women?
What's it like being sexually attracted to women?
Who have you dated/had more relationships with men or women?
What does a vagina taste like?
What does a penis taste like?
Do you swallow?
Why isn't swallowing safe?
What's your ultimate bi sex fantasy that involves both men and women?
Do you like men who are in touch with their feminine side, nelly boys, or men who like to camp it up and who you can tell are gay when they speak and rolls of chiffon come out of their mouth?
What sort of sex toys and BDSM equipment do you own?
What sort of sex acts do you like to do with men?
What sort of sex acts do you like to do with women?
Why do you like to masturbate with other men?
Isn't it gross having sex with a woman?
How do you feel about that study that the NY Times wrote an article on 2 years ago that said that bisexual men don't exist?
Do you want kids, if so does that have any influence on who you'll eventually settle down with as a partner?
How do your parents feel about you?
Do you tell men who you date that you're bi?
If you were to date a woman would you tell her about yourself?
How do you deal with wanting to be sexual with a woman when you're in a relationship with a man?
What if your attractions to women just dissapeared, never came back, and you suddenly became gay, how would you feel about that?
How promiscuious are you?
Does a vagina taste like fish, smell like fish?
Do women's bodies ever gross you out like they do to me?
When did you first know that you're like this?
Do you ever get flirted/cruised by heterosexual men?
Did you ever flirt/cruise a guy and it turns out that he's not gay/bi?
How can you tell if a guy is interested in you?
How good is your gaydar?
How do you define bisexuality?
How old were you when you first started noticing men in a sexual way, even if you didn't know that's what it was at the time?
Do you relate more to gay men or heterosexual men?
Why do you define oral sex and mutual jack off with men as being sex if straight men and women don't do this?
Would you ever fist a man or a woman?
Would you ever fuck a transsexual person?
Where are you on the Kinsey scale?
Did you like the Kinsey movie and feel that it represented bisexuality?
Are you out in the workplace?
Have you been out to bosses or in workplaces in the past?
Why do you like being tied up?
Why do you like spanking and being spanked by people?
Would you ever date/have a relationship with a heterosexual woman?
How do you feel about latin and black men who are on the "down low"?
Ever been to a bath house?
Ever been to an orgy?
Have you ever used meth?
Can gay men tell or read that you're bisexual?
Can you tell or read who is bisexual and who isn't?
How do you feel about the gay "community" or the idea that there even is such a thing?
If a bisexual bar/dance club opened up would you go to it?
What are gay bars/dance clubs like, is it true that they're full of mean shallow people, and there's an orgy of public sex going on like on the TV show "Queer as folk"?
Did you or would you ever have sex with an HIV+/Poz man or woman?
What's it like being bi?
Do you kiss or hold hands with men in public?
Are you 50/50 in your attractions?
Have you ever had sex with a person of the same gender and thought about the opposite gender?
Have you ever had sex with a person of the opposite gender and thought about the same gender?
Do you care if other people view you as being a homosexual or a gay man?
How do you feel about the term "straight acting"?
How is your sexuality fluid and why would you describe it as being that way?
Are you more sexual or romantic with one gender or the other?
What's gay sex like?
Do you still like women sexually?

Anyway those are some of the questions that I've been asked by friends, strangers or people who I meet in bars/on vacation, and family members and I'm not offended by any of them and I've answered all of them.

Want me to answer them? I wouldn't mind it as I've drank a lot of coffee this evening. :)

I've never really had any trouble with the gay/queer/glbt "community" not accepting me.

I actually feel more out of place in the bisexual "community" than in gay/queer spaces or BDSM/kink spaces where the sexual orientation labels don't matter.

I went to a bi group discussion meeting and felt out of place since it was REALLY cliquey, cruisy, very small, way too political for my tastes, a bit too label obsessed, and people were rather rude. I was talking to one guy and in the middle of our conversation he just left without a word or saying excuse me let me talk to him for a second, and started talking to some other guy about digital cameras without answering my question that I'd just asked him.

It was obvious that most of the people were there to hook up, find sex partners, or had slept in the past with other members of the group as they talked openly about it. I wasn't there to do that, and I felt like telling them "Well so you slept with him, her, or both people, so what? Why are you telling a complete stranger this?". No, it wasn't an orgy club and I thought that it was OK if you wanted to talk about bisexuality with other bisexuals but I don't really need that in my life at this point and I just went there to meet new people, and found that I had little in common with them besides our sexuality. A good friend of mine also went to the meeting and felt the same way that I did. We didn't understand why it was so cruisy and why this one guy our age was REALLY cruisy and we felt like if people were just there to hook up that they should have just went to a bar or went online.

Lots of gay men who I've met and became friends with tell me how they're happy that I'm out and honest about things (besides my sexuality) as they meet a lot of gay men who are plain flakes and just straight up lie. Like one guy I met at a leather event asked me out to dinner and I wasn't interested in dating him so I just said thanks for the offer and I'm sorry but I usually don't date someone that fast when I just meet them; but we can be friends. He thanked me for being honest as he meets lots of men who would just lie and say sure and then never give him a call or return a call to him.

The only time was when an older guy I met on vacation told me to 'Pick a side and stay with it' but then he kept buying me drinks trying to pick me up and kissed me. He didn't seem to understand certain things like the idea of being called queer and how it's not a slur and I asked him if he was out at work since he worked at a school and he thought I asked him if he was out of work or on vacation.

Or this other guy I met in a bar while on vacation told me how he believed in bisexuality in women but not in men and I told him about my dreams and he just said how he didn't have sex dreams like I do that involve both genders.

Again I don't hold these men at fault for their opinions as they were A LOT older and both came out as being gay after being married for like 30+ years and having kids at like age 45 or at that stage of life.

I don't care if those men don't understand me as it doesn't really matter to me, and the people who matter my friends and family understand me and that's all I care about. I met a bisexual woman the same night the older guy told me to 'pick a side and stick with it' and we just talked about how a lot of older people don't always understand bisexuality.

Gay/lesbian/bi/trans people were even accepting of me and very supportive when I was just coming to terms with my sexuality and I was confused about being myself when I identified with other orientation labels, was in sort of a limbo, and the terms I'd use to describe myself were all other words for bisexual such as fluid, queer, pansexual, trysexual, and the whole me/mysexual thing.

[flexuality]

DiamondDog,

that's a hell of a lot of questions!

I would be interested to hear your answer to this one:
Can you tell or read who is bisexual and who isn't? (and how?)

btw....love that avatar pic! lol! :tong:

[spartca]

DiamondDog, I also find that once people meet me, a Real Live Bisexual Man, the monsters they had imagined tend to go away.

Being out, honest, and open about my bisexuality is a great way to counter the bigotry some people hold about bisexual men.

Thanks for your great post! :)

[Solomon]

frankly, other people's ignorance isn't my problem

[DiamondDog]

DiamondDog,

that's a hell of a lot of questions!

I would be interested to hear your answer to this one:
Can you tell or read who is bisexual and who isn't? (and how?)

btw....love that avatar pic! lol! :tong:

As far as being able to tell if someone's bi or not I have no idea how I can do that except that it has something to do with reading body language and reading people.

It's happened so many times that there's no way it's a coincidence and I've had other gay and bisexual people read me as being bisexual.

It goes beyond cruising and flirting and seeing if the person has a wedding ring on as that doesn't mean anything anymore.

Thanks I like that pic too!

[DiamondDog]

DiamondDog, I also find that once people meet me, a Real Live Bisexual Man, the monsters they had imagined tend to go away.

Being out, honest, and open about my bisexuality is a great way to counter the bigotry some people hold about bisexual men.

Thanks for your great post! :)

You're welcome!

OK I forgot some questions.

These happen to be kind of the funniest ones and it was kind of embarassing to answer them at seperate times, but I did it anyway.

Are you a top or a bottom? Are you the male role during sex or the female role?

What will you do if you're not into anal sex? Why would someone want something inside themselves like that?

My mom actually asked those questions to me and I kept in mind that mostly all of the gay men that she knows are either hardcore bottoms or hardcore tops, in that they're not into being versatile at all even for oral sex.

They're into the strict oldschool mentality that the top in the relationship is the man who is the sole bread winner for the household while the bottom isn't and that the bottom man in their relationship would never feel comfortable taking on a role like that in their relationship.

Also the men she knows who are in strict top/bottom relationships are this way when it comes to oral sex too, and they're SO strict of a closed/exclusive and monogamous relationship that they joke about being even more stable than most heterosexuals in married relationships are.

That sort of relationship may be seen by many as being a power play, a power dynamic, or unfair but that's the type of relationship that both people want and what suits them best.

Kind of like the strict lesbian stone butch/high femme relationship dynamics, if you've heard of that or read any pulp lesbian novels like Frankie Hucklenbroich's over the top fictional book called "A crystal diary".

I just told her how I wasn't either role and how I don't go by those roles/labels.

I said how nobody does a "female" role during sex like this even if they are a hardcore bottom since it's two men having sex and not a man and a woman.

I said how even if my hardcore bottom friends who see everything in the top/bottom dichotomy say that I'd be a top, I still don't go by that label/role, and I said how I'd be a switch for doing BDSM.

I also told her how there are TONS of things that two men can do that don't involve anal sex, and how not everyone that is gay or bi does anal sex, and how anal sex is far from necessary for myself and lots of other men.

I didn't go into details since that'd be well, really weird but I told her she should ask our gay friends all the things that two men can do together, and that she should ask our hardcore bottom friend why he loves being the receptive partner during anal sex.

[spartca]

DiamondDog, that so funny you mention your mom. My mom kind of went through an evolution:

-"It's ok to be gay, you know."
-"You have to choose!"
-"Does this mean you have sex with children and animals?"

And she was a clinical psychologist before retiring! Jeesh.

[spartca]

I would be interested to hear your answer to this one:
Can you tell or read who is bisexual and who isn't? (and how?)


Wow Flex that seems like a really great start to a new thread! ;)

[TaylorMade]

These are all great suggestions, but I think personal input is always nice, It was kinda cultural, with fear of the "down-low" man and all. I had to deal with two stereotypes:

1)Bisexual Men as disease vectors

2)Bisexual men are not manly

The first one was the hardest one...then I remember getting to know some rather tawdry sort of guys... who were straight. Somebody was always worried they'd caught SOMETHING from their latest conquest.

The second was easier. I can't figure out when it changed (insert 300 refrence here), but all gradually, after chatting with and talking to soldiers, dads, athletes, and traditional "manly" men that happened to love men and women, I could no longer shut these people out of my dating pool.

Not sure about black guys, though... asthetics'n alla't.
(For those of you about to be offended... I'm black.)

*Taylor*

[jedinudist]

In a bunch of other threads we've discussed how society is hostile to men's bisexuality in particular.

I'd like to start a thread talking about what steps folks are taking out there to reduce bigotry against bisexual men?

I totally agree that knowing all the intricacies of how this bigotry operates can help us to create ways to counteract it. In this thread I'm hoping we can focus on the creative solutions rather than just bemoan the problem. Thanks! :)


The Steps I am Taking...

I don't hide my orientation anymore, but I don't go around shoving it in people's faces.

I just live my life day to day, trying to be a better man each day, being nicer to people, being honest, and helping others when I can.

I show them that I am a regular guy, a nice guy, and that I don't fit into any one's preconceived notions of what a Bisexual Man is.

By just being me, and not playing into the stereotypes, I am slowly tearing down some of the things that lent themselves to the ignorant bigotry in the first place. I'm not promiscuous, I'm not "on the prowl", I don't "act gay" (I don't "act" anything), etc.

People are forced to see me as ME, not their idea of what a Bisexual Man must be - and that tears down the type of ignorance that breeds hate and bigotry.

At least I hope it does...

[DiamondDog]

I've had other bisexuals tell me things like "Oh you're not bisexual, you're one of those gay men that decides to flirt or experiment with bisexuality".

Anyone else have this happen?

[Azrael]

This is something I'm particularly pissed about today. I am a bisexual. With this in mind, I've come to accept many fucked up things about "the reality we're stuck with" as I've heard it described. I was an attic rat (A/C installer) for two years, working with all kinds of people, some open minded, most not. I've also been an apprentice at the local trade school, where I've remained closeted for most of this time except for with the one girl in the class. My first year of school was purely professional, but this second year most of the people in the class sit around gay bashing like there's no fucking tomorrow. I'm sick of it and so is my friend. Here's where I found myself. Do I stand up and tell them I don't appreciate this shit identifying myself in the process and make my existance more of a headache, or do I just try to laugh it off, when this shithead is interrogating me like, that shit's disgusting, you think that's ok? Breathe deeply, feel my blood start to boil and wonder how long I'm going to put up with this shit. This outdated alpha male jackoff mentality of suck my dick and make me a sandwich (these guys in my class are pretty sexist as well) bullshit. Naturally in practically the same breath these same guys are trying to tell me that it's not fucked up or morally wrong if girls do it, to which I replied "When is gay sex not gay sex?". I'm so fucking frustrated. Why did I have to be mechanically inclined? Oh well, best foot forward. Blaring punk music and holding hands, citizens defy the puritanical regime :bigrin:

[TaylorMade]

Tell them that girls who like girls usually don't usually do threesomes with jackasses like them.

:bigrin:

Other than that, I have nothing.

*Taylor*

[Azrael]

Actually, I did :bigrin:

[TaylorMade]

Actually, I did :bigrin:

Good man.

^ 5.


*Taylor*

[spartca]

More great suggestions, love it! :)

[Solomon]

the only avenue that i can suggest that would work well would be a billion dollar advertising budget, and networking advertising as well

as i recall that is at least part of what the Civil Rights movement utilized to enhance mainstream awareness and thinking

[spartca]

You're right - at some point BiNetUSA was formed for just this reason. They did a lot of PR, resulting in cover stories on major publications such as Newsweek and incorporation into the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force mission, a very influential political action group in Washington.

While things have slowed down a bit, there is still quite a bit of organizing and activism going on at the national and internatinal levels. Why, just this past summer I enjoyed the 9th International Conference on Bisexuality in Toronto, Canada. What a great conference! Check it out at www.9icb.org

[Solomon]

great! when's the next one?

[spartca]

I think they alternate the international conferences with the regional ones... so there should be a North American conference coming up soon... I heard a rumor it was going to be in Mexico City. More news as it becomes available!

[spartca]

If you click on Events above, all the bi conference info is already compiled there:

http://main.bisexual.com/index.php?do=events

Looks like they're planning the 10th International Conference on Bisexuality for 2008 in Rhode Island! :)

[bearisbare]

I think they alternate the international conferences with the regional ones... so there should be a North American conference coming up soon... I heard a rumor it was going to be in Mexico City. More news as it becomes available!

I'd love to be able to help confirm something like that, but unfortunately it couldn't pull together for Mexico City to host a conference anytime between 2007 and 2009. I don't know of an Americas bisexual conference in the foreseeable future.

[bearisbare]

If you click on Events above, all the bi conference info is already compiled there:

http://main.bisexual.com/index.php?do=events

Looks like they're planning the 10th International Conference on Bisexuality for 2008 in Rhode Island! :)

Yep, it's July 24-27, 2008, planned for the University of Rhode Island in Kingston, R.I., USA.

Every bisexual conference, whether small and localized or larger and international, relies on the help of volunteers interested in making it happen. At the 9ICB, I was the only male on the organizing committee, and although it did feel good to have other men shake my hand and thank me for my involvement, it would have been nice to have some other men alongside as well. I do encourage other men to feel free to get involved in events like bi conferences as well as any local discussion/support groups, wherever you may live. I moderate a YahooGroup for the 10ICB and if you would like to leave me a private message, if you're interested in subscribing, I can give you all the details.

[Curmudgeon]

Though it has been over thirty years since I was coming out to myself as bisexual (after many years of sex with both men and women), I still remember calling the gay hot line in San Jose and being told the there was not such thing as bisexual. :male: