Representation of the Bisexual and Transgender Communities

[Northerncalifornia]

Hello everyone I am Daniel and I am a gay individual hailing from Northern California. I would like to ask those of the bisexual community and transgender community how they would feel of major organization would consider dropping their representation of the bisexual and transgender persons? to focus more specifically on Gay and Lesbian issues. Would you support this? Do you not believe that those of the bisexual and transgeder communities have different beliefs and ideals that are not the same of gay and lesbians. I thank you for your opinions.

[Bluebiyou]

How I would consider?
If I understand what you mean, GLBT associations dropping the BT.
Pretty dumb, I think.
Like the factioning of religion, it is true there are different interests, but there are more similarities than differences.
In fact it is rather the antithesis of all our social objectives.
To do so would be to disavow every single bit of moral rational for society accepting gays.
All GLBT objectives embrace tolerance and acceptance of sexual differences (among consenting adult humans).
For Gays (of a GLBT association) to reject the BT is an intolerant act.
How can gays ask/demand sexual tolerance and act with intolerance?

That would be like NAACP to reject/deny mulatto members because they're half white. To hell with any moral precept by MLK Jr. (like "content of character").

I'm reminded of Cher's old tune from the 1970's, "Half Breed".
"Half Breed"

My father married a pure Cherokee
My mother's people were ashamed of me
The indians said I was white by law
The White Man always called me "Indian Squaw"

[CHORUS:]
Half-breed, that's all I ever heard
Half-breed, how I learned to hate the word
Half-breed, she's no good they warned
Both sides were against me since the day I was born

We never settled, went from town to town
When you're not welcome you don't hang around
The other children always laughed at me "Give her a feather, she's a Cherokee"

[Repeat Chorus]

We weren't accepted and I felt ashamed
Nineteen I left them, tell me who's to blame
My life since then has been from man to man
But I can't run away from what I am

[MarieDelta]

I do not support the breaking up of the GL from the BT. Yes we have many issues that are different, and no we don’t walk in lock-step with the gay and lesbian communities. But we do have many issues that are the same. One of the reasons many Gay and Lesbian folks get persecuted is because of their gender presentation. A bisexual is perceived as gay or lesbian the moment they arrive with their same sex partner. If a bisexual is partnered with a gay man or a lesbian woman they are perceived as gay or lesbian. Transgendered folks belong to all three communities, and oftentimes only find safety in the gay and lesbian communities.

In addition to split only makes us weaker, makes us less able to take on challenges. In many smaller communities, in this country and around the world, there may not be much of a queer community. We need to maintain that strength, for our safety and our political leverage.

We are part of the same community like it or not. Why should we, the queer society, imitate the straight society that has rejected us, by rejecting those who are different?

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/column/61238/a-clan-a-network-a-tribe-a-family/

[Bluebiyou]

Indeed,
Rather than GLBT, I'd label it BGLT, because gay, straight, lesbian, transgender are all subsets of ... bisexual.
The logic and psychology of this is rock solid.

Although sometimes I think GBLT would be great... but only because I love BLT sandwiches! :)

But for 'elitist' gays or lesbians who wish to push their own agenda, devoid of true morality, and freed of the fetters of others... how are they different from those straights they demonize?

[Northerncalifornia]

Hello again, Well I see your comments and thank you for those who have replied thus far, your argument inrigues me. It reminds me of a presentation given by a sociology professor whos overall theory I guess was that All human beings are indeed bi sexual. As a gay individual that is certainly not true in my book. I along with some other fellow gay and lesbian individuals are consdering starting a grass roots campain in California to drop representaiton of the bisexual and transgender individuals and promote other organizations that are already in exsistence for them. You do not agree that there should just be one organization geared towards the Gay and Lesbian community soely? Do you not believe that positive sergregation is a better way to go? I hope to hear back from you.

[void()]

Segregation in any form is negative in my humble view. We are all one race. You will do as you wish though. Just my :2cents:.

[pasco_lol_cpl]

You do not agree that there should just be one organization geared towards the Gay and Lesbian community soely? Do you not believe that positive sergregation is a better way to go? I hope to hear back from you.
No most of us do not agree with a balkanization policy. In this instance segregation would hurt, not help. This GL organization would be seen as exclusionary. One group would then put their own interests forward at the expense of others. I don't have any data, but some how I'm willing to bet that the proportion of the population that is bi, in the closet or not, may just be larger than the over all gay population. Would a GL group really want to alienate that political muscle?

[FalconAngel]

It is good that you are asking the B & T communities for their input.

Dropping the BT from the GLBT would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

We do share most of the same issues.
As a Bisexual I had to keep my sexuality to myself while I was in the military, just like the gay soldiers did, and straights tend to perceive Bi men only as Gay. as if we can only be one or the other. Most straights admit that women can be BI, but many still see it as only straight or gay, with no middle ground.

Because of that homophobia, there are no swingers clubs that we can go to and express our sexuality. Sure, Bi women are welcome there, but not Bi men. They don't want us there, just like they don't want gays and lesbians there.

It is that perception by a large part of the straight world that puts us together with you in the fight for sexual equality.
But since the gay/lesbian community has a large portion of people that, also, do not believe in Bisexuality, or are hetero/Biphobes, I am wondering if the proposed move, that you have mentioned, is not an effort by those people to minimalize our sexuality, just like the straights have done to both you and us.
If that is the reason, then you have become your own enemy.

To segregate us from this effort, you would be losing a large part of the people that have been helping in the struggle.

To use a famous quote from American history "If we do not hang together, then we shall surely hang separately."

When fighting for a cause, one needs all the help that they can get. In the Revolution, Congress passed a law that any slave that fought for a period of one year would be granted their freedom and be paid for their service. It got a lot of recruits for the cause.
Learn from that history. You remove us from the cause and we will just create our own group and leave you behind.
That would make things more difficult for both you and us. What many of the gay/lesbian community do not seem to understand is the fact that your struggle is our struggle, too.

At the beginning of the AIDS scare, it was Bisexuals that were blamed as the major cause of the disease being spread to the hetero community. They almost completely ignored all of the other factors, just to blame the Bisexuals.

The only reason to segregate us out of your organization is the same reason that you need the organization; the same reason that the straight community hates us both. Sexuality phobia. Many people in the straight and gay communities do not believe that we exist, which makes us, to them, non-entities.
How does that feel when people treat you like that? That's how we feel about it.

As I said before, you need all the help that you can get; particularly in this age of overzealous evangelical hatred of anything that is not straight and right wing Christian.
Segregate us and a lot of your support and allies evaporate like water in the desert, because we will focus on our own struggle and ignore yours.
That's just human nature.

[frenchvikki]

Hello again, Well I see your comments and thank you for those who have replied thus far, your argument inrigues me. It reminds me of a presentation given by a sociology professor whos overall theory I guess was that All human beings are indeed bi sexual. As a gay individual that is certainly not true in my book. I along with some other fellow gay and lesbian individuals are consdering starting a grass roots campain in California to drop representaiton of the bisexual and transgender individuals and promote other organizations that are already in exsistence for them. You do not agree that there should just be one organization geared towards the Gay and Lesbian community soely? Do you not believe that positive sergregation is a better way to go? I hope to hear back from you.

This is a preposterous proposition and if you go ahead with it and are successful there is little doubt you will weaken and weaken very seriously the GBLT movement. Those that are anti gay of any kind will love it and really go to town. It is the divide and rule principle, and the only thing here is that it is part of our own movement that is doing the dividing. If it takes off then the progress which has been made will have been set back very seriously. I am appalled and yet unsurprised by what you propose for we all know that there are many in the gay and lesbian communities which would gladly dump us and transgendered people and simply do not accept the fact that our sexuality is real and exists. We have enough pressure and bigotry already toward us from outside we dont want any more, especially from others who share with us so much, including may I add our beds and our bodies.

Segregation is never positive. Your reasonable sounding language in putting forward your idea has been rumbled and shows you up for the prejudiced and bigoted individual that you are.

[grayhound]

:2cents:

IMHO, I am on the line here. I am mostly streight, BUT, I am also Bi-curious. I can see the progress the GLBT is making, even tho it is slow in comming. I would think it in the best interest that GLBT stick together and not put BT to the side. It takes unity to get things to change. Devide and conqure, that is what I see starting to go on here. Like I said this is just my :2cents:

[Gemini25]

Hello again, Well I see your comments and thank you for those who have replied thus far, your argument inrigues me. It reminds me of a presentation given by a sociology professor whos overall theory I guess was that All human beings are indeed bi sexual. As a gay individual that is certainly not true in my book. I along with some other fellow gay and lesbian individuals are consdering starting a grass roots campain in California to drop representaiton of the bisexual and transgender individuals and promote other organizations that are already in exsistence for them. You do not agree that there should just be one organization geared towards the Gay and Lesbian community soely? Do you not believe that positive sergregation is a better way to go? I hope to hear back from you.

You know there has been a lot of different people saying that we are all are indeed bisexual lately, and I for one don't agree with that. I do believe that that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender are ALL biological and not a choice one would make for themselves. What I think the people who are saying we are all Bisexual are really saying is that there is no such thing as STRAIGHT, and those are the people they are trying to connect with. And that is something I tend to agree that there is no such thing as straight, because there is so many different shades of gray, and society has beaten us down into submission to where if we don't act like everyone else (straight), then what we believe in is wrong.

To start a grass roots campaigne to drop the BI and Trans part of the GLBT community in California or anywhere I think would be a great detrement to the GLBT community. It's my belief that the community is all ready devided too much the way it is. I live in Northern California, and it's interesting to me that the ladies don't want to even socialize with the men, and the men don't want to even socialize with the ladies. THEN on top of all that neither group want to accept that the Bisexual community even exists.

You mention that you would promote other organizations that are already in exsistence for us... PLEASE tell me who and where they are... I have been looking for a few years now for a BI group up here in the Sierra Foot Hills and surrounding areas and the only groups are in the Bay Area only, That's it no where else! So for you to say you are going to drop us, and then promote groups that are all ready here for us makes no sence. There is a tremindous amount of support especially in California right now for the Gay and Lesbian community, and I believe that the BI and Trans communities are a big part of that support, and you should accept us as people, and appreciate what we have, and can do for you. I'm not saying we are the end all be all for the GLBT community, but I do think we deserve more respect from the Gay and Lesbian community.

As for "Positive Sergregation "... there is NOTHING positive about sergregation. How is it possible that segregation is ever positive? It's just another way to keep people you don't understand, agree with, or accept out. Do you really think that the community here in Northern California is strong enough to turn their back on the BI and Trans part of their community? Think of all the GLBT businesses we help support along with the Gays and Lesbians. Would you really want us to take our support and dollars else where? As for one organization geared to gays and lesbian soely, don't you all ready have the Marriage Equaity, Equality California? And in Sacramento you have all ready taken the BI and Trans out of the GLBT center. And beside the groups I've all ready mention there are a ton of other groups that I know of that are geared to the Gays and Lesbians Soely. What more do you need, want, and or desire? Why do you want to exclude people who are part of the GLBT community, or maybe questioning their sexuality from being able to get their questions answered, experience the GLBT life style? Why is it that the Gay and Lesbian community hates us so much? Why can't we all just peacfully coexist? One for all, All for one! That has been one thing that has driven me crazy about the GLBT community up here.

If you want to talk more about this privatly feel free to IM me.

I'm stepping down off my soap box now.....:soapbox:

Michael:flag3:

[12voltman59]

I think that this proposal is an incredibly bad idea and for the life of me----cannot begin to fathom why such a thing is being proposed-----

The strides that "gay" people have made in recent years are not set in stone and there are plenty of people who have no qualms about not only wiping away those gains--but to also see that anyone not straight will ever be able to gain any of their natural rights due them as citizens of the United States.

I highly recommend against this--since this is something that is taking place in California--you no doubt have plenty of bi and trans people there that can form their own strong organizations but in most other places that is not the case---I hope the proposal doesn't fly there because if it does--- GLBT organizations in other places in the country might follow suit and those of out here in the hinterlands will be even more isolated and marginalized!!!!

Thanks guys-great fracking proposal ya got there!!!!

[gfofbiguy]

Do you not believe that positive sergregation is a better way to go? I hope to hear back from you.

Sheesh, does this ever sound "Nazi-istic" (for lack of a better word).....when is segregation EVER positive? What about the Civil Rights Movement back in the 50's/60's? Do you also believe that non-white/non-Caucasian people should be segregated as they were back then as well? With their own drinking fountains and bathrooms and schools, et cetera?

What happens to your GL group when either the Gays or the Lesbians want to "break apart" and form just a Gay Group or just a Lesbian Group - and say "won't that just be for the greater good? 'Do you not believe that positive segregation is a better way to go?'" What happens then?

[sammie19]

It saddened me to read of this stupid proposal. My partner is a gay woman and I am bisexual. Just how would splitting the LGBT movement move forward the rights of people like us? We have relationships with our own sex and many never stray from that relationship. Essentially then, people like me, a bisexual woman living with a lesbian and who is faithful to her partner lives as a lesbian.

I am no better or worse than any other person in our community, and my interests are best served by a unified LGBT movement under oe umbrella. I have identical worries and concerns about how the world views Meg and I as any gay couple be they male or female. Our interests are identical. To eliminate prejudice and obtain true equality for all irrespective of race, gender or sexual orientation. To do that we must do it together, no matter our sexuality or our gender. End the link and we raise the spectre of internicine warfare between gays and the rest of us.

And please, no one has made too much of the problems of Transgenderd people, who in so many ways are the most persecuted and abused of all of us within the LGBT movement. Just where do they fall within the bisexual community, for many are not bisexual but could probably be considered gay, and indeeed some even straight. Do we then condemn them to a lonely and even more isolated existence than they have now? The fact is you potentially split the moveemnt into three, not two, or even more if as in some cases, the various groups begin to break down into gender identification. How influential would we be then in changing how the world looks on us?

[12voltman59]

Folks--I just went and read the profile put up by this person-and guess what--there is not much there-----so maybe--this is yet one more manifestation of our recurring "friend"

If this person was legit and a member of an actual organization---he or she would have the stones to put that information regarding what organization and would state more clearly the rationale as to why they feel this way---so I am now circumspect on the legitmacy of this post.

If this is true--I will hand it to our "friend"--ya got me on this one!!

Touche!!!

[Papelucho]

Welcome to the forums! Your perspective is really important here, as there are not too many strictly homosexuals that post.

I think your organization is getting ahead of itself. Why would you want to drop people who are fighting the same inequalities as yourself? You talk as if you have all the resources you need at your fingertips, that there will be no problems along the way. It's a totally inappropriate time to be thinking that way; the leadership of your organization should adopt a philosophy of abundance...plenty of room for everyone.:2cents:

[Northerncalifornia]

Hello everyone again. Just to let you know I am Anthony D.E. Von Houten and I am a 22 year old junior college student in Northern California, I am also a gay individual. I am not apart of an organization. I am doing independent research along with 14 other individuals who are lesbian and gay to see how those of the bisexual and transgender communities would feel if their representaiton would be dropped from large and smaller organization to focuse more on just lesbian and gay individual..................

[Northerncalifornia]

We are trying to get much input from bi and trans individuals from online fourms, websites, college campuses gay alliances, etc. We are trying to get enough information and facts to see if we gain enough support to move ahead with this proposal to major GLBT organizations to possibly consider this "representation move". Do you not agree that each gay/lesbian bi and trans are each "distinct" in their own ways and would actually want "distinct" representation for their own causes/issues.

[cglfbiguy]

O.K. What part of divide and coquer do you not understand? We all have issues that are similar and breaking up of the organization(i.e. dumping the b&t part) would be detrimental to all.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Very true Blu. I understood that song wholeheartedly as a kid growing up, and understand the meaning more now than ever.
A person cannot run from what and Who they are, and should not have to Try, and shouldnt be forced Nor Asked to be other than what they Wish to be.
Dont know if that makes any sense this late, but there's my take on this.
Cat
T'salagi Cherokee Half-Breed.:paw::paw:.lol

[MarieDelta]

We do not want to seperate our forces.

I think you need to study your history to find out exactly why.

In addition there are many, many things that the communities have in common.

What makes you think that the bi and trans communities would welcome such a move?

Do you really understand why it is repugnant to many here?

Do your research - Look up "Stonewall" and "Comptons Cafeteria"

Look up Lynne Conway and Silvia Rivera, Brandon Teena, Gwen Araujo, Barry Winchell.

Give you an idea why we need to stick together?

Why is it that you want to split the groups? is it because you think it would be better for the Gays and Lesbians?

[diB4u]

Personally its an umbrella for a reason.

For me it falls under the same heading, for we all, regardless of sexualty and gender issues, all face bigitory and hatred and that is why we're together to fight pig ignorence.

In an ideal word we all should just accept each other for who we are... and not base things on our genders or who we like to kiss.


For me it will always be GLBT- for others its LBTG or BLGT or TLGB or any other versions of the same thing...

At the end of the day, we are all searching and seeking aceptance for who we are... Stand together, and stand strong.

:bigrin:

[bisexualman]

Your argument seems to suggest that BT is weighing you down and making it hard for you to make headway with your issues. I was a teacher for years. I only recently came out. During my time as a teacher I took a lot of flack for standing up to GBLT harrassment and persecution of students. I didn't do it because someone was bisexual and I wanted to protect them, I did it because the entire community is under attack. I have to also agree with some other comments: I do not like the idea that even with an already persecuted community, I am further removed from those who are like me in more ways than not. I have a foot in both worlds. As I say to people who criticize my sexual orientation as undecided, pick your favorite hand and now cut the other one off. Please reconsider your thinking. And for the sake of solid argument, state exactly what the issues are that are so much more Gay or Lesbian that they cannot be fought for side by side with Bisexuals and Transgenders. Are we the step children that embarass you? Do you buy into the rhetoric that says we aren't gay enough or hetero enough?
On a professional level, if you pull away from GBLT does that mean I should focus all my energy on just bisexuals and leave my Gay clients to find another therapist that just sees Gay clients? You have my claws out and my fur up but I am still listening.

[Northerncalifornia]

Thank you to all who replied your concerns will be brought fourth in session. Thank you.

[12voltman59]

I guess I have to apologize to northerncal----I guess he is legit--but some of the things of his post had the unfortunate aspect of starting to feel like our "drive by poster" who has vexed us these many months.

I am glad that whoever this person his--he learned that we have some strong feelings on the matter but I suspect that irrespective of our views on this---the proposal might go forward--if it does--I hope that the people who consider the motion do not approve it----I think it would be a most unfortunate move on the part of this organization if they pressed forward in this fashion.

[bisexualman]

Thank you to all who replied your concerns will be brought fourth in session. Thank you.

I still don't understand you yet. You present yourself in a very harsh manner, ask for opinions without being clear on your agenda, and then leave this message as if 20 replies represents the entire Bi and Transgender opinion. My fur is really up now. I don't know who precisely you represent but there needs to be a lot more discussion on an issue this serious.

[bisexualman]

Oh and one other point: I am not certain that you can speak so freely as if you represent the entire Gay and Lesbian community. I am already talking to those closest to me. None seem too happy.

[Lateralus]

Interesting topic. I say if you're gonna do it go all the way and drop the b, t, and l, considering that lesbian is just a term to describe gay women. Eventhough I'm bisexual (meaning I am sexually attracted to both sexes), I have a boyfriend. If someone at where ever I work were to find out and I was bashed or discriminated against because of it, would your organization not want to defend me because I'm technically not gay?

[frenchvikki]

No? What is this site if not a bisexual community? What is it if not a community of TG people? What is it if not a community of gay people? And straight? Wherever and however people of a kind, their sympathisers and supporters gather, it is their community.

[Doggie_Wood]

Indeed,

Although sometimes I think GBLT would be great... but only because I love BLT sandwiches! :)


Are you horny or hungry - or - both :tong:

:doggie:

[Northerncalifornia]

Good evening to all again, I apologize if it sounded as if I was "done" with this site. I am not. I was just trying to say thank you to those who posted thus far, and those concerns will be brought up at our next planning session. I see some have posted new ones.

FrenchVikki: "No? What is this site if not a bisexual community? What is it if not a community of TG people? What is it if not a community of gay people? And straight? Wherever and however people of a kind, their sympathisers and supporters gather, it is their community."

Very interesting FV, you do not consider yourself a "community" why not? Do you believe that there are "boundaries" around Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans orientations?

Question: Someone brought up in their opinion that there are those of the Gay/lesbian community who do wish to see bis/trans removed? Do you hear this often, or does anyone hear this often?

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?
How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?
During our research process we discovered that there was once a "Bisexual Center" in San Francisco, CA. during the late seventies early eighties. As we spoke with individuals from San Fran, Santa Clara, San Jose, and three other surrounding cities they did not speak highly of it. (We spoke to a total of 30 individuals who were mixed of men and women and all were gay, we did not inteview anyone who "identified" as Bi or trans). They actually mentioned what we found on the website http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/bicent.htm . During the centers years, they held a variety of workshops offering help on a variety of relationship matters. However, those we spoke with said they were "horrified, sickened, and other words. about finding out that they had workshops on "open relationships" and how to love a man and woman.

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

[Northerncalifornia]

Good evening to all again, I apologize if it sounded as if I was "done" with this site. I am not. I was just trying to say thank you to those who posted thus far, and those concerns will be brought up at our next planning session. I see some have posted new ones.

FrenchVikki: "No? What is this site if not a bisexual community? What is it if not a community of TG people? What is it if not a community of gay people? And straight? Wherever and however people of a kind, their sympathisers and supporters gather, it is their community."

Very interesting FV, you do not consider yourself a "community" why not? Do you believe that there are "boundaries" around Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans orientations?

Question: Someone brought up in their opinion that there are those of the Gay/lesbian community who do wish to see bis/trans removed? Do you hear this often, or does anyone hear this often?

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?
How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?
During our research process we discovered that there was once a "Bisexual Center" in San Francisco, CA. during the late seventies early eighties. As we spoke with individuals from San Fran, Santa Clara, San Jose, and three other surrounding cities they did not speak highly of it. (We spoke to a total of 30 individuals who were mixed of men and women and all were gay, we did not inteview anyone who "identified" as Bi or trans). They actually mentioned what we found on the website http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/bicent.htm . During the centers years, they held a variety of workshops offering help on a variety of relationship matters. However, those we spoke with said they were "horrified, sickened, and other words. about finding out that they had workshops on "open relationships" and how to love a man and woman.

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

[FalconAngel]

We are trying to get much input from bi and trans individuals from online fourms, websites, college campuses gay alliances, etc. We are trying to get enough information and facts to see if we gain enough support to move ahead with this proposal to major GLBT organizations to possibly consider this "representation move". Do you not agree that each gay/lesbian bi and trans are each "distinct" in their own ways and would actually want "distinct" representation for their own causes/issues.

As stated in our previous post, take a look at the history of this nation. When it was founded, our people were broken into many different groups with many individual needs.
Those needs were unified and put into one voice in the Declaration of Independence and later in the Constitution of the United States of America. You really should read them some time in order to understand what is being said here.

There is also our nation's motto: E pluribus unum; Out of many, one.

Yes, there are individual needs amongst each of the GLBT community, but when you begin to segregate, where does it end? You remove the BT out because the needs of them are somewhat different, then you have to remove the L from the GL community because the needs of Lesbians are somewhat different than the Gays and pretty soon, there is 3 different groups, each made up of different people who are former GLBT are now one Gay group, one Lesbian group and one group made up of Bi and Trans people.

Is that what you really want? To weaken the movement?

What you are proposing would do that in spades, to the detriment of all. So it isn't the brightest idea in the world.

[NumberSix]

I don't think I'll find all the right words to describe how ironic it is to have gay people judge bisexual people on their way of life.

Not only that, but gay people are trying to fight prejudice, rejection, and i don't know what else ... and now you ask what the Bi/Trans community would think about being rejected from the gay community? And you quote people who come off as highly prejudiced against bisexuals.

Doesn't make me like the gay community more, that's for damn sure.

[FalconAngel]

Good evening to all again, I apologize if it sounded as if I was "done" with this site. I am not. I was just trying to say thank you to those who posted thus far, and those concerns will be brought up at our next planning session. I see some have posted new ones.

FrenchVikki: "No? What is this site if not a bisexual community? What is it if not a community of TG people? What is it if not a community of gay people? And straight? Wherever and however people of a kind, their sympathisers and supporters gather, it is their community."

Very interesting FV, you do not consider yourself a "community" why not? Do you believe that there are "boundaries" around Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans orientations?

Question: Someone brought up in their opinion that there are those of the Gay/lesbian community who do wish to see bis/trans removed? Do you hear this often, or does anyone hear this often?

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?
How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?
During our research process we discovered that there was once a "Bisexual Center" in San Francisco, CA. during the late seventies early eighties. As we spoke with individuals from San Fran, Santa Clara, San Jose, and three other surrounding cities they did not speak highly of it. (We spoke to a total of 30 individuals who were mixed of men and women and all were gay, we did not inteview anyone who "identified" as Bi or trans). They actually mentioned what we found on the website http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/bicent.htm . During the centers years, they held a variety of workshops offering help on a variety of relationship matters. However, those we spoke with said they were "horrified, sickened, and other words. about finding out that they had workshops on "open relationships" and how to love a man and woman.

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

Here's where you have failed to pay attention:

Your quote and question regarding what FrenchVikki said are completely of the mark. FV said that we are part of the community. You need to re-read that again.

As far as the discrimination, many of us have experienced that discrimination. As far as myself, I have experience more hostility and discrimination from Gays and Lesbians that I ever experienced from straights.

The GL part of the community needs to learn tolerance and acceptance. One would think that, since they have experienced so much hostility, more of them would have learned more tolerance by now.

As far as the prejudicial statement that you quoted. It is a clear propaganda statement, based on the same type of prejudice that has been used on the Gay community for years. "they can't maintain relationships over long periods" has been used on us just as it has been on you.

Sure there are some that exemplify the statement, but there are plenty more that do not.

And that is not limited to the Bi community. It applies to the gay/Lesbian and straight communities as well.

Consider that.

[FalconAngel]

here's no such thing as a gay "community" or even a real gay "culture" and the same goes for bisexual/Transgender "communities".

There's no such thing as a real/true heterosexual "community" or a real heterosexual "culture" either.

What gets mistaken as a real gay/GLBT "community" is really just mass consumerism and politics.

It looks like our troll is back.

Light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

[IanBorthwick]

Hello everyone I am Daniel and I am a gay individual hailing from Northern California. I would like to ask those of the bisexual community and transgender community how they would feel of major organization would consider dropping their representation of the bisexual and transgender persons? to focus more specifically on Gay and Lesbian issues. Would you support this? Do you not believe that those of the bisexual and transgeder communities have different beliefs and ideals that are not the same of gay and lesbians. I thank you for your opinions.

Pardon me if this is going to sound a "bit" bitter, but you asking us is not going to make you change your minds already. They are, indeed, already made up. Here where I live the Pride Festivals already reflect this idea you are already running with. When I went to my first the GLBT acronym was proudly presented. Starting with my second and all further on, it was and now seems to remain Gay and Lesbian Pride. This I have seen in 4 cities, and the wave is spreading with extreme rapidity.

What you are essentially asking is if we mind that you are abandoning us for increased credibility in the Political Forum. As I have said many times prior in many threads, we will be sold out when we are no longer deemed crucial for pushing the "Monosexual" agenda. Indeed, your current patterns have shown that you will take the same trail that we've seen you walking along already to its final entity.

This final eventuality will entail turning your back on the B and T, adding to the already negative press to us moreso than you already have to ingratiate yourselves with the straights, fostering more bad blood to gain distance and stature, and at the end fostering or promoting studies or rationales that show Homosexuals and hertosexuals are as natural as sunshine where we are artificial and repugnant.

Indeed, Mary Cheney showed you all the way and you've hitched your wagon to that star.

Do what you like, we already know you will anyway. I for one won't miss you going as I have never felt one ounce of support from you, only continuous attacks at my very existance and outright animosity.

Since you asked, I have to add that at the least the last time I recall a group turning on allies like this was in Germany before World War 2...how Jewish Adolph hitler turned on the jews. So with that I bid you..

Auf Wiedersehen.

[Bluebiyou]

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?
How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?

During our research process we discovered that there was once a "Bisexual Center" in San Francisco, CA. during the late seventies early eighties. As we spoke with individuals from San Fran, Santa Clara, San Jose, and three other surrounding cities they did not speak highly of it. (We spoke to a total of 30 individuals who were mixed of men and women and all were gay, we did not inteview anyone who "identified" as Bi or trans). They actually mentioned what we found on the website
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/bicent.htm . During the centers years, they held a variety of workshops offering help on a variety of relationship matters. However, those we spoke with said they were "horrified, sickened, and other words. about finding out that they had workshops on "open relationships" and how to love a man and woman.

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

Discrimination? It's just the same. I've had vehicles sabotaged multiple times. I was even poisoned once. Accomplishments at work ignored or 'dissed'.

Regarding "the center's" success or approach, what does that have to do with anything? Let's try a different twist:
I knew of a gay small business that failed. It disgusted a lot of people; they only had bad things to say about it. Therefore, I categorically devalue all "those gay people".

Finally, Debbie T. is certainly entitled to her opinion. But, as a statement of morality, it fails any test of depth.
I suspect Debbie (and we bisexuals see this often in lesbian/gay) has trouble accepting intimacy with the opposite sex, reacts by categoric rejection of said intimacy, and cannot accept bisexuals because it involves acceptance of the very thing she rejects.
Most bisexuals I've spoken with agree about this. The psychological term is "reaction formation". Lesbians and gay men often deal with heterosexual feelings by demonizing the opposite sex/heterosexuality or picking some arbitrary 'morality measure' that keep them safe from having to approach openness.
The most pure gay man I ever met put it like this, "Sure, I could have sex with a woman, but it would be like fucking a sofa". The gay men with residual psychological issues usually have to "Ooooo, that's gross!" (as if a typical woman's vagina was nasty compared to a guy's rectum).
The semen from a man, the mucus from a vagina, saliva from anyone's mouth... Real sex is a dirty thing, lot's of bacteria, yeast, and diseases involved/possible. Avoid it and be celebate, or get over it and accept it. (I personally recommend 'safe' sex practices)

In conclusion, all the above bicker is moot to the real principle, here.
That is, unconditional tolerance (hopefully acceptance) of consentual adult sex. If two (or three) adults want to have sex, it's no matter what combination of male/female/trans/etc.
Proposing dividing the gay/lesbian agenda from Bi/Trans is counter to (what should be) our uniting principle.

[IanBorthwick]

We are trying to get much input from bi and trans individuals from online fourms, websites, college campuses gay alliances, etc. We are trying to get enough information and facts to see if we gain enough support to move ahead with this proposal to major GLBT organizations to possibly consider this "representation move". Do you not agree that each gay/lesbian bi and trans are each "distinct" in their own ways and would actually want "distinct" representation for their own causes/issues.


Actually all this is, no more no less, is attempting to push a rationale or creat one by which you can justify a split...as are the other quotes. As I said before, don't ask us since your mind is made up...just do it already. Nothign WE say will make you change your minds. The prejudicial smegma tossed our way is not uncommon, and shows a complete lack of empathy or willingness to think beyond your own needs.

[cglfbiguy]

Biphobia describes a fear or condemnation of bisexuality, usually based in a belief that only heterosexuality and homosexuality are genuine orientations and appropriate lifestyles. Bisexual persons may also be the target of homophobia from those who consider only heterosexuality appropriate. The reverse can also apply in that bisexual persons may be targets of heterophobia or discrimination by some homosexuals.

[darkeyes]

God.. sum peeps get rite up me nose!!! Met a lotta gays an lesbians like u..TF most r betta than that.. me included cos me a lesbian.. an can c nowt but disaster for the LGBT movement if yas decide 2 give Bi's an TG's the boot.. they r diff..but the same..cantya c that ya daft sod! We all get persecuted an u split em off an we get persecuted worse! Now wee bittie advice..drop the idea an don b such an arsehole!

[MarieDelta]

FrenchVikki: "No? What is this site if not a bisexual community? What is it if not a community of TG people? What is it if not a community of gay people? And straight? Wherever and however people of a kind, their sympathisers and supporters gather, it is their community."

Very interesting FV, you do not consider yourself a "community" why not? Do you believe that there are "boundaries" around Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans orientations?

Question: Someone brought up in their opinion that there are those of the Gay/lesbian community who do wish to see bis/trans removed? Do you hear this often, or does anyone hear this often?

Yeah, seen/ heard this a lot lately. Does the HRC ring a bell? As far as transsexuals/ transgender go I have heard folks say that they do not understand us, yet they have made little effort to do so.

I support the right to marry same sex individuals, why wouldnt I? Its simply a matter of common sense, it is what is right.





Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

Why does she care? Do we complain about the mens (and womens ) steam baths? Prostituition? We know that we arent the only ones in the world who have open realationships, the monosexuals have as well. Is it that we pursue both that bothers her? Get a grip! We cant see why anyone would close themselves off to 1/2 the population either, but y'all do it, who're we to judge?

So she is monogamous , so are some bisexuals (in fact a lot are) but then there are those who are not. So what?

[bisexualman]

Northern Californian- I am suspicious of you. My instincts tell me you are dangerous and are stirring up trouble. I will continue to join with the GBLT and I- (Did you even consider intersex? or are they too small to worry about?)- community. I will not be severed so easily from the people around me who already support me as I support them. You have made it clear that you have a private agenda you do not wish to share, with a group of people you choose not to identify. I will not tolerate the use of words to divide people and spread hate. I do not trust people who hide while spouting dogma. Your statements, quotations, and general rhetoric are full of fear and hate. I urge this group of people on this site to not answer this hate with hate but compassion and understanding. We need to stay united together. I will be watching what you do and I will always speak up for others because I remember that fateful speech- 'When everyone one is gone, who will stand up for me?' I stand firmly behind the GBLTI community and against anyone who tries to isolate us from each other to defeat each of us alone till there is no one left to stand up and say no.

[Gemini25]

Good evening to all again, I apologize if it sounded as if I was "done" with this site. I am not. I was just trying to say thank you to those who posted thus far, and those concerns will be brought up at our next planning session. I see some have posted new ones.

FrenchVikki: "No? What is this site if not a bisexual community? What is it if not a community of TG people? What is it if not a community of gay people? And straight? Wherever and however people of a kind, their sympathisers and supporters gather, it is their community."

Very interesting FV, you do not consider yourself a "community" why not? Do you believe that there are "boundaries" around Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans orientations?

Question: Someone brought up in their opinion that there are those of the Gay/lesbian community who do wish to see bis/trans removed? Do you hear this often, or does anyone hear this often?

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?
How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?
During our research process we discovered that there was once a "Bisexual Center" in San Francisco, CA. during the late seventies early eighties. As we spoke with individuals from San Fran, Santa Clara, San Jose, and three other surrounding cities they did not speak highly of it. (We spoke to a total of 30 individuals who were mixed of men and women and all were gay, we did not inteview anyone who "identified" as Bi or trans). They actually mentioned what we found on the website http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/bicent.htm . During the centers years, they held a variety of workshops offering help on a variety of relationship matters. However, those we spoke with said they were "horrified, sickened, and other words. about finding out that they had workshops on "open relationships" and how to love a man and woman.

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

What French Vikki was responding to was someone uneducated who was saying that there is no such thing as individual communities Gay, Lesbian, Straight, Bi, or Transgender. Which we all know is un true. There is the MAIN community GLBT, then with each initial there are Sub Communities. Everyone basically fighting for the same causes, moving in the same direction. But as my dear friend Rudy De La Mor puts it "We all just wack it a little differently".

I've been thinking about this every since I read it yesterday, and I think I came up with a really good analogy. I mean NO disrespect by this at all, it's just something I think everyone can think about and visualise a little better. Picture this, the civil rights movement, Whites Vs. Blacks. What do you think would have happened if the darker skined black people would have told the lighter skined black people that they were going to drop them from the cause because they were too light and didn't really know what it was like to be a black person? Do you think they would have progressed in the positive way they did? What held them all together was a common thread that helped them stand together in strength, and speak with one powerful voice for the betterment of the black community. Now segregated schools, drinking fountains, back of the bus, are just a page in history. They don't exist anymore because the entire community (dark skined, light skined) stood together in unity.

Now fast forward a few decades, and now it's the GLBT peoples struggle, and look at ALL the support the Gays and Lesbians have from the Bisexual and Transgender communities, and the Striaght supporters. We are all part of the struggle, we are all fighting for the same causes. But still yet there are Gays and Lesbians who want to silence our voices of support and outrage, and take away our basic rights to fight for the good of all involved in the GLBT community.

So I ask you Daniel, does that sound fare to you? Is this really something that you and your group really wants to happen? I know for a fact that the NAACP is part of the support of same sex marriage here in California, and they have a lot of influence in a lot of different areas. So then if you were to say you don't want to Bisexuals and the Transgenders to be part of the GLBT movement, then would you and your group be willing also to tell the NAACP thanks but no thanks we want to do this on our own? How stupid would that be?

I have experience first hand the discrimination from the Gay community not so much the Lesbian community. I've heard such hurtful things from people that are supposed to be my friends/family like "Bisexuals don't exist, I just need to make up my mind, I can't admit that I'm really gay, that I'm greedy, and so on" This from the group of people that I thought were my friends/family. How do you think make a person feel when they are told they don't exist? I know that there is some fear from the Gay community towards Bisexuals, which I don't understand. My EX is a perfect example. I've asked him I don't know how many times to just take a look at this web site, so he can see and get a better understanding of what the Bisexual community is, and how we think about things, what kind of support we have for one another. And you know the responce I get? "Why do I need to do that? I doesn't affect me." Now this is someone I have known and been with for over 20 years.... To just completely shut me out.. And now you want to do this to the entire Bisexual and Transgender community? Where do you get off? Do you know how hurtful, and disrespetful that is?

When you say the Bisexuals don't support gay marriage, where did you get that information? I'm sure there are some BI and Trans people who are a bit more closeted, and not willing to carry signs, and join demonstrations, BUT, those same people are also the ones that will show their support financially when needed. I for one support everything the Gay and Lesbian community stand for. I am a member of PFLAG in my area, I help with their booth at the Nevada Coutny fair, I support national coming out day, ect. So what is it that we aren't doing enough of for you?

You mention that there was a Bisexual Center in the Bay Area in the Late Seventies, Early Eighties and that people did not speak highly of it. Well you know it's not the 70's or 80's anymore, and a lot has changed since then. Look at the gay bath houses, hasn't there been a lot of changes there as well? So I really don't think you can use out dated information to try and make any kind of argument in 2008.

As for the Quote from the 44 year old lesbian,. how long ago was that statement made? Once again to make an educated argument you need to use current information. As for open relationships only in the BI community... Please..... I know a lot of Gay couples who are supposedly in committed relationships to one another, who have open relationships. Also in the straight community, there are open relationships, but they get away with it by calling themselves swingers. So does that make it all right?

So when you and your group gets back together, I would love to be invited to just sit in and listen to what you all have to say. Like I mentioned before I do live in Northern California, so it wouldn't be that much of a drive for me.

[csrakate]

I cannot understand why the OP even bothered to post that comment from Debbie T. unless he was looking to stir up something. What? There is no promiscuity in the gay world??? To attach the belief of one person to an entire group is misguided at best....but I think our OP is trying to pull the wool over our eyes with this entire research angle. I certainly don't think that posting inflammatory remarks against the bisexual community is going to accomplish anything.

[12voltman59]

Well--the troll did post his head in two different guises--both names already having been banned but unfortunately the posts were not deleted.

I am back and forth on the OP---I do find it odd still that the person did not put up any sort of contact info if he or she is with a legit group and also provide links to the org so we can see what they are about but we don't have that----so once again---I have my doubts about the legitmacy of this post and the OP.

[Northerncalifornia]

To all. I thank you for your posts thus far to my new posting. I would like to point out once again. I am Anthony D. VonHouten a 22 year old college student who hails from Stockton, California a city in northern california. I again, apologize if anything has been misconstrued. I am not hear to spread any hate or prejudice to those on this board. I serve on a 15 member committee which was formed by a private individual from Southern California, We do not have a name and are not an organization, we began our extensive research last October 2007 and will probably not be finished till next year. The members of our committee vary in age, sex, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, education etc. All members have nothing but the upmost respect to all individuals. Our major goal that was presented to us, was to see how those of the bisexual and transgender communites felt if their representation would be dropped from GLBT organizations. We conduct our research. create a "proposal of findings" then we are to present the findings to our "client"; inturn they will tell us our next step (if any is to be taken.). our "agenda" which has been mentioned is nothing but that-the goal mentioned above. We are just presenting you with the information we have gathered so far, it is not intended to be some "direct" insult to anyone of you, we just want your reactions to it, and if it has seemed like that I apologize.

[IanBorthwick]

To all. I thank you for your posts thus far to my new posting. I would like to point out once again. I am Anthony D. VonHouten a 22 year old college student who hails from Stockton, California a city in northern california. I again, apologize if anything has been misconstrued. I am not hear to spread any hate or prejudice to those on this board. I serve on a 15 member committee which was formed by a private individual from Southern California, We do not have a name and are not an organization, we began our extensive research last October 2007 and will probably not be finished till next year. The members of our committee vary in age, sex, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, education etc. All members have nothing but the upmost respect to all individuals. Our major goal that was presented to us, was to see how those of the bisexual and transgender communites felt if their representation would be dropped from GLBT organizations. We conduct our research. create a "proposal of findings" then we are to present the findings to our "client"; inturn they will tell us our next step (if any is to be taken.). our "agenda" which has been mentioned is nothing but that-the goal mentioned above. We are just presenting you with the information we have gathered so far, it is not intended to be some "direct" insult to anyone of you, we just want your reactions to it, and if it has seemed like that I apologize.

And I must reiterate: The very question you're asking, in the fashion you are asking it, the negative rhetoric and the pseudo-research you have presented indicate the following..

A) Your mixed ethnicity, blah blah blah, are all homosexuals gathered for this one task. Though not stated directly, it is implied..and therefore you share...

B) An agenda of divisiveness which is fostered BY you for a "client" whomever they are who is already, as I stated since I do live in Southern California, pushing for segregation.

C) Your flailings at "understandings" are backed with hype and slander which one can only point to as being the derigeur deuhmanizing of a politcal organization already working to an end NOT favorable to US.

D) And lastly, as evidence is showing, since this agenda is already IN motion what you are truly gathering is spot checking how upset we'll be when the rest realize we've already been given up as the sacrifical lamb to the politcal arena in order to improve YOUR credibility and standing.

We've suffered worse from the GL and the straight commumity, the religious right wing and done it right alongside you. I am not surprised anymore after the pseudo-scientific attacks on bisexuality in males..nor am I surprised anymore after all the stereotyping and negative characterizing on the LOGO channel of us. Same for all the nastiness passed in the GL centers around where I live..innocent gays go in without bias, come out with new physical revulsions to male bisexuals they did NOT have before. Magazine articles, internet forums run by gays enforcing a policy of bias and division, etc.

As Aesop taught us, a wolf doesn't need an excuse to slaughter the yearling lamb, but it DOES ease the small pangs in their conscience. So since you're going to do this, stop asking us. Crap or get off the toilet already.

[TaylorMade]

To all. I thank you for your posts thus far to my new posting. I would like to point out once again. I am Anthony D. VonHouten a 22 year old college student who hails from Stockton, California a city in northern california. I again, apologize if anything has been misconstrued. I am not hear to spread any hate or prejudice to those on this board. I serve on a 15 member committee which was formed by a private individual from Southern California, We do not have a name and are not an organization, we began our extensive research last October 2007 and will probably not be finished till next year. The members of our committee vary in age, sex, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, education etc. All members have nothing but the upmost respect to all individuals. Our major goal that was presented to us, was to see how those of the bisexual and transgender communites felt if their representation would be dropped from GLBT organizations. We conduct our research. create a "proposal of findings" then we are to present the findings to our "client"; inturn they will tell us our next step (if any is to be taken.). our "agenda" which has been mentioned is nothing but that-the goal mentioned above. We are just presenting you with the information we have gathered so far, it is not intended to be some "direct" insult to anyone of you, we just want your reactions to it, and if it has seemed like that I apologize.

Well, you have your answer. We don't want to be divided and think it would hurt us all in the long run. I think you have enough information for whatever research you want to undertake and present.

For now, I am taking you at your word and not considering you a troll. We've been burned by them so much that anything that upsets the apple cart is labeled as "Troll".

*Taylor*

[Delilah]

Is this committee in charge of the GLBT? GLBT is around the world. I don't think this committee is strong enough to split the organization.




To all. I thank you for your posts thus far to my new posting. I would like to point out once again. I am Anthony D. VonHouten a 22 year old college student who hails from Stockton, California a city in northern california. I again, apologize if anything has been misconstrued. I am not hear to spread any hate or prejudice to those on this board. I serve on a 15 member committee which was formed by a private individual from Southern California, We do not have a name and are not an organization, we began our extensive research last October 2007 and will probably not be finished till next year. The members of our committee vary in age, sex, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, education etc. All members have nothing but the upmost respect to all individuals. Our major goal that was presented to us, was to see how those of the bisexual and transgender communites felt if their representation would be dropped from GLBT organizations. We conduct our research. create a "proposal of findings" then we are to present the findings to our "client"; inturn they will tell us our next step (if any is to be taken.). our "agenda" which has been mentioned is nothing but that-the goal mentioned above. We are just presenting you with the information we have gathered so far, it is not intended to be some "direct" insult to anyone of you, we just want your reactions to it, and if it has seemed like that I apologize.

[sammie19]

You have a point Delilah, but we all know there are enough Gay people out there who have no time for us and that would love to have us kicked out of the GLBT movement. They may not have enough influence yet, but in time, and with an anti bi and tg campaign ongoing over the next few years who can say where it will lead. It is worrying and should be nipped in the bud now. No complacency should be our motto.

[MarieDelta]

If I were into conspiracy theories(which I am not)...

I might think "they" were trying to split up the LGBT communities becuase it would make it so much easier to suppress and then eliminate our voices.

I might think that "they" were also trying to make organizations like the HRC assume that they could not make significant adavances while being tethered to the BTQI. THose of us who "stick out." Who dont appear like a white M or F homosexual who appears like any other straight white couple.

Because we cant be accepted if we are different?

[void()]

I wish to further address these items, but must do so a a bit later. We've a storm coming in and I'd also prefer to think a little more on these conversational points.

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?

How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

[Bi-Zarro]

I've never known any out bisexual who doesn't support gay/lesbian marriage.

Debbie T. apparently thinks bisexuals are an ideological monolith. This is no more true than it is for anyone of any other sexual orientation.

She also conflates bisexuality and swinging, maybe even polyamory. Not the same things. (Yes, I know, the circles overlap. So?) If she thinks open relationships are wrong then she doesn't have to have one, no one's forcing her.

As far as monogamy goes -- it works for some people and doesn't work for others, regardless of sexual orientation. Certainly there are gay men and lesbians who aren't monogamous -- just as there are people across the LGBT spectrum who consider marriage to be "heteronormative" and therefore something to be opposed.

"They make sex seem dirty." It isn't, you mean? Sex is "clean"?

Debbie T. needs to get over herself.



I wish to further address these items, but must do so a a bit later. We've a storm coming in and I'd also prefer to think a little more on these conversational points.

Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?

How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

[void()]

All right, back to the discussion. In summary your opinion is merely that, your opinion. Mine is the same, my opinion. Hopefully that will be understood in the response below. I'm not flaming anyone. I am giving what was asked, an expression of view/s. This being an adult forum I'm going with the general rule of thumb that different views can meet, perhaps disagree and agree to disagree with courtesy and civility. This despite a nagging voice in my psyche sounding a troll klaxon. At any given, my replies are below.


Have anyone ever experienced discrminiation from members of their community?

Yes as is obviously supported by your own arguments and statements. It is clear an opinion or belief has already been preformed. That borders on being prejudicial. This clearly on the table then, you're asking for other opinions. Everyone is entitled to have opinions, sure. It is a shame that folks prejudge others but such is the same as it ever was.

And yes on a personal level. Have met a few gay men who posed a bit of interest in me. Once they discovered by my own admission I hit for both teams the interest waned or completely vanished. I've even bothered to ask why there was such a reversal. "Bisexuals are evil", is the basic gist of the replies.

How do you feel about those who say that bisexuals actually do not support (Openly/closed) Gay Marriage?


I think some folks ought to get their heads out of their asses. Personally I support open or closed same sex marriages. If two people love one another enough to commit to being partners, more power to them!


Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

Well, I'll not be taken seriously because of being involved in an open marriage. And if having open relationships is so wrong, then why did Alexander the Great have them? He enjoyed having male lovers and female lovers. Many other great names in history have also partaken of the evil bisexual and open relationship fruits. And even whole societies, you've but to look at the Spartans of ancient Greece.

I am monogamous to a wife that loves and understands. She also trusts me and desires that I be happy. As a woman she is only half of the human race. I can love and have sex with both halves and don't care a whit if the lover in bed is male or female. I care about the person not the trappings. Some nights I want to enjoy a guy, others a woman.

The only woman for me is my wife. If I could find the right, or as near right as you can get, guy then he'd be the only guy for me. Real promiscuous, huh?

Sex isn't dirty. It is something sacred between lovers. Obviously this Debbie was confused and blond. Otherwise she'd be out doing Dallas I'm sure. See how prejudice works? Isn't it fun to be labeled and excluded?

So you know, I've no opinion of Debbie. The opinion expressed is one that disagrees with her opinion. As I said, we're all entitled to our own. You asked for other views, although I'm not sure why. It's clear you've already settled your view/s, nothing anyone says or does may
alter them. No point arguing opinion.

Again merely my humble two pennies.

[Northerncalifornia]

Thank you again for your new responses. I can see from past and current posts, that all on here clearly do not support the dropping of representation. I would also like to thank again Bluebiyou for his message to me about the "troll" on this fourm website, and I again assure you that I am not he. I would like to address the post by member "Delilah" Is this committee in charge of the GLBT? GLBT is around the world. I don't think this committee is strong enough to split the organization" No this committee is in no way connected with any LGBT organizations at all anywhere, Thank you actually for asking or stating this, we are an indepent committee only, we have no control on anything, lol.

When asked about dropping the repsentation of those of the bi and transgender individuals:
Robert W. 21 of Santa Clara who identified himself as a gay individual stated: No I don't support this at all. We need unity for our people. (When we asked Robert if there was anything that bothered him about those of the bi and trans community he responded: "I have bi friends and I accept them like they accept me, there is nothing different about them from me. I personally dont know any people that are transgender, when I go to clubs or events I don't notice them.
I put Robert's quote on here to ask a question: It has been noted by some posters on here that even though those of the bi and trans who are not openly out there, still support issues affecting all of the GLBT.
How could bi and trans individuals be more invovled with GLBT organizations/ national or local? What can those of gay and lesbian community do to help bring out more bi and trans representation? Like events? anything like that at all?
Question 2: How do you feel about there being a lack of reprsentatives out there for bi and transgender individuals in the GLBT?

[void()]

Covens in local areas. If there were such I may be inclined to 'get out' a bit more. The Wiccan covens used 13 miles as a coven's domain. At Sabbats groups of covens from a broader area came together, possibly still do. Each coven was it's own ruling body and did its own thing on minor sabbats. But I doubt such a notion would take hold what, with 'terrorist cells' now also garnering suspicion.

"This is officer Bubba in BFE, looks like we gonna need Homeland. I just spotted a dozen or so folks wearing sheet robes going into the old bowling alley. They's up to sumpin no good I can tell, they's all grinning and chanting O Are Gee."

[BreeIsMe]

Clearly, as everyone has pointed out, there are many more similarities between the different groups than differences. This is what high school students find out when they travel to foreign countries or host a foreign exchange student = = that despite SUPERFICIAL differences, people (and this includes lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, pansexual, etc , etc, etc.) are more alike that they are given credit for. We are all human beings with the same basic needs and just because I may like chocolate and you like vanilla does not mean we should be in separate groups. Ultimately, we should all be part of the SAME group......the human race.


Bree

[mindfinding]

Well, all of the following are separate issues, so it makes sense that everyone would take care of their own yards. However, seeing as all issues are linked to sexuality, you may lose momentum and support from a laaaaarge amount of people.

It could be a good idea though. I'm all for it. The Bi's need their own movement in a sense. Their own representation. I'm no lesbian or gay, I'm something different. The modern movement is like saying people in wheel chairs have everything in common with people on crutches. The basic idea is the same, but not even close. (no disrespect intended to either crutched or wheeled peoples.)

[mindfinding]

yepper doodles

[Hephaestion]

Perhaps this entire thing is to get grass roots information for an assigment?

The quesitons posed are of a very naive nature and focus on the intitials GLBT as though the continuum in man has some mutually exclusive class (partition not hierarchy) structure.

Where in the continuum is a transvestite who does not wish to undergo body changing surgery but is committed to the opposite gender's lifestyle whatever that may be in concept - normal? By definition, normality has a spread according to the context of investigation.

As a practicing bisexual does one not practice homosexuality? Is such a person an honorary or actual homosexual (male or female). Are there degrees of homosexuality in the student's perceptions and are these based on proportion of time of practice or intensity of curiosity or combinations of these and other factors.

Whoever set the assignment needs to stop and think. This is the same kind of idiotic endeavour as measuring intelligence and then believing that such a groundless measure has a)validity and b)is fixed throughout life.

Truly a little learning is a dangeous thing.

[diB4u]

Hello everyone I am Daniel and I am a gay individual hailing from Northern California. I would like to ask those of the bisexual community and transgender community how they would feel of major organization would consider dropping their representation of the bisexual and transgender persons? to focus more specifically on Gay and Lesbian issues. Would you support this? Do you not believe that those of the bisexual and transgeder communities have different beliefs and ideals that are not the same of gay and lesbians. I thank you for your opinions.


I think that some posts have gotten ahead from the real question that was asked.

WE all have different beliefs and ethics, because that's is fundementally what makes us all unique and individual.

I am not an open bisexual, or even an open gay woman, infact, over the last few months, I've been debating what I am...


But the fact of the matter is, no I would'nt support any actions to segregate any notion of seperating GLBT or whatever you personally refer to it as.

I inpart actuarly agree with Hephaestion. Because lets face it people, sexuality is so vast who is right and who is wrong?


Shouldnt it then also include hetrosexuality as well?

As the original poster asked should Bisexuality be seperate... I respond with this, why?

What is bisexuality? Is it a thought? An action? Is once classed as bisexual if there actively seeking sex or a relatonship? And what if people only watch bisexual porn or gay porn? Then what?

For some individuals they need something to identify with... By seperating Bisexuality from Hetrosexuality and Homosexuality, this is a vey dangerous notion. Sexuality can not be cut off, be sectioned into a little box and be be labled this or that.

If you're an active bisexual person then at times you're also gay as well as straight.

What is normal? Because if someone has the answers please let me know.

I agree with what Hephaestion, a little learning is very dangerous and mostly based on illogical and incorrect facts.

For myself ideally its finding acceptance and love. Isn't that what every human being wants regardless of their gender and sexuality?

[FalconAngel]

It has been noted by some posters on here that even though those of the bi and trans who are not openly out there, still support issues affecting all of the GLBT.
How could bi and trans individuals be more invovled with GLBT organizations/ national or local?
What can those of gay and lesbian community do to help bring out more bi and trans representation?
Like events? anything like that at all?

Here's a start. Try to get more of your Biphobic members to learn the same tolerance toward us that they want to get from the straights.

Bi and Trans people have no representation because of those same Biphobics that think that we do not exist. Actively involve us.
Many of the leaders of the Gay/Les communities could, very easily, engage us to participate as a community at events if they only tried. Sadly, not only do they not try, but at some events, we are treated as a pariah more than an ally.

Many in the Gay community, like much of the straight community, treat us as if we do not exist, or worse, that we are just not deciding which side to bat for.

Try treating us as equals across the board and you would be surprised at the help that will come out of the woodwork.




Question 2: How do you feel about there being a lack of representatives out there for bi and transgender individuals in the GLBT?

There are few because of the treatment from the biphobics both in the straight community and in the Gay/Les community.

Again. treat us as equals and you will be surprised at what you get from the BI/TG communities.

[Long Duck Dong]

I have one question..... what has the LGBT done for me.... to change my life for the better

and the answer is nothing......

instead they have created headaches.....

I like to be treated for my illnesses and injuries, and as a person that didn't tell my doctor I was bisexual, I was treated normally....
now that he knows that I am bisexual, he has to advise me of my rights with each test, inform me of my rights as a bisexual, advise the hospital when i go for blood tests etc ( I am classed as a risk group for hiv / aids ) etc etc etc

in the work place, I would be one of the boys......
now I would have to advise him of my sexuality so he can ensure the workplace is advised about the rules of harassment and discrimination based on sexuality

if I wish to marry.... as a heterosexual...I could just marry
now as a bisexual I have to go to a court appointed representative to be informed about my rights as a bisexual and the laws of marriage in regards to make sure that I am choosing the right choice for me marriage / civil union

the list goes on

my right to privacy has gone out the window...and my right to fair and equal treatment is gone..... under the guise of ensuring I get fair and equal treatment.

to call myself bisexual is to call myself a higher than average risk factor for hiv / aids, a high risk factor for health workers, a 50% higher chance of needing a marriage counsellor / therapist etc etc etc

all in the name of LGBT rights

hey thanks for that...... I have gone from being a person to being a health risk, a uninformed person and a person that a issue for employers

so my answer to the original question, is I do not care if its LGBT, LG or LGT..... but whatdoes matter to me, is regaining my ability to lead a normal life without hearing about my rights which I had already for years

[darkeyes]

Read an reread this thread an summat keeps naggin way at me.. year or so bak ther wos sum 1 else who posted an kept cummin bak wiv stupid an irritatin supplementary questions like the OP ere. Cant memba is name an not got time 2 search bak rite now. Ne 1 memba who that wos? Jus this guy don haff remind me of 'im!

[Starra]

Debbie T. a 44 year old lesbian stated that "Bisexuals are not taken seriously because of their "belife" of having an open sexual relationship with a man and woman, some take it to far, I think having open relationhips are wrong. I know that not all bisexuals do it, but a majority probably do especially the younger generation of them, If the bisexual community would get together and try to address this with their people it would maybe make it better. Perhaps discuss having monogamus relationships and become more selfcontrolled when it comes to having a relationship with a man, or a woman. This is the only issue I really have with them, they make sex seem dirty. I have never thought of discounting them from our organizations, but they can make some improvements to their P.R.

Do you agree with her statement?

I would like to address this statement as a bisexual woman who is married and also has girlfriends. Debbie T. has basically used her own personal views on her choices to remain monogamous and expected everyone else to live by her choice. This is simply not fair. She makes some sweeping judgements too.

1/ Bisexuals are not taken seriously because they have open sexual relationships with both men and women?! What?! For a start, not all bisexuals do this. Many are completely monogamous. Secondly, this is not the only reason why bisexuals aren't taken seriously. Many of the reasons are simply because some people are ignorant to us and don't choose to be educated about our sexuality. Also there is the fact that 'celeb's such as Tila Tequila give the impression that we are greedy, arrogant sex fiends who will use our sexual beings to get anything we want, which is of course not representative of us at all.

2/ An open sexual relationship she says. What of love? Does she discount this? I do not 'have sex' with women. I have an honest loving relationship with a girlfriend. This is called polyamory. Maybe she should have looked it up before assuming something about it.

3/ Some take it too far? What exactly IS too far? And who gets to decide how far too far is? Another sweeping judgement on something she clearly doesn't really understand or care to learn about.

4/ She thinks open relationships are wrong. That's fair enough. For her. If she wouldn't want one or accept a woman into her life who wanted one, that's her prerogative. But to decide that they are wrong for everyone else is suggesting that her opinion is the only right way. Truly ridiculous.

5/ Especially the younger generation do it eh? I wonder how she knows this? I am 33, am i classed as the younger generation? I am in what she terms an 'open relationship', which i term as polyamorous. Via a bi women's forum i go to, i can list many many women into their 40's and 50's whom are in poly relationships. Another sweeping generalisation with no substance.

6/ So she thinks that the bisexual community should talk to 'their people' (i mean WTF!) and address this issue. So what she's saying is that all bisexuals should unite in their way of conducting relationships. Would she like another lesbian to tell her how sh should conduct her relationship? Or anyone for that matter. Relationships are personal to each individual, and how everyone chooses to conduct them is their business and theirs alone.

7/ Discuss 'self-control'. Like i lack control because i'm not leading a monogamous life? Has it occurred to her to consider that it is a choice made between the people involved in it? That it has nothing to do with lacking control and more to with a mutual agreement which is accepted and honest? Nope, she just thinks we lack self-control. By her suggestions, i should be sleeping with every woman i meet because i can't 'control' myself. Tch, disgusting bi-phobia.

8/ How do we make sex seem dirty? We're back to her assumption that poly relationships are about sex, which is certainly not the case. And even though i don't have meaningless sex, i have to say that no way of leading a life (whether it be swinging, threesomes, monogamy, polyamory etc etc) can be said to make sex dirty. Sex is what it is, whoever that person chooses to do it with, or how many people they do it with.

9/ She is right about one thing, we can make improvements to our PR. But perhaps she didn't consider PR the way i do. For example, i feel that a good PR for bisexuality is to argue against opinions like hers and educate others on what it is and means to be bisexual. We could also be a bit more vocal in our sexuality, because many of us remain discreet (especially those whom are in a heterosexual relationship).

10/ Debbie's views clearly show exactly WHY there might be any suggestion by the gay and lesbian community to separate the B and T from LGBT (UK version of identifying the community). Is it really about the idea that we have differing identities and them wanting us to branch out by ourselves? No i don't think so. It is their way of removing their association to us, because they are embarrassed of us. Why? Ignorance, intolerance and out and out prejudice. Simply put, they are bi-phobic. Interestingly, the majority of bi-phobia i have experienced has been from the gay and lesbian community. They tell me to "pick a side", say that we are "bi-now-gay-later", and make assumptions that we sleep around, spread diseases, lack commitment and control, do not respect their plight (very untrue) and possibly the worst form of phobia, that our sexuality simply does not exist at all.


So, on the topic of removing the B and T from LGBT, i'm sure have already worked out my view. :bipride:

[Northerncalifornia]

Hello to all;

This is Anthony D.E. Von Houten; I would like to start off by saying sorry for being late in response to the forum. I took ill. However, other developments occurred as well. Just this past week. I rescinded my position from this committee. When I took this position last year, I was intrigued by its purpose. But, for those of you who live in California, perhaps you have seen the new commercial for same sex marriage sponsored by the California Equality. When I saw this, I came to tears-afterwards; a strong "sick" feeling came over me. It was not the commercial, my reality shoot back to me of who I am and my work on this committee. I thought of all of those who are out there gay/lesbian/bi/tran/other identities, then I remembered some of the responses from the individual's on this forum. I never supported this proposed idea. I can't, how could I? I am ashamed of my work thus far; every one of you on this forum and all who are of this orientation and others are my equals and I have nothing but the utmost respect for each and every one of you. You are all apart of the struggle, if your support is open or out it doesn’t matter. You have made you feelings clear, and I would like to offer another final apology to all. I hope to build positive relationship with everyone. I thank you for your time/responses. I wish nothing but the best to all of you and hope to see you out there with us proudly side by side.
Always & Forever,
Anthony