Obama: Race a Factor? Wow Big Surprise...

[darkeyes]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/22/race.politics/index.html

Wasnt too surprised to read this. No doubt Hilary would have had similar figures for sexism had it been she who had won the Democratic nomination... Racism then alive and well.. when will we ever learn that "A Man's A Man For A' That??"

Seems many Americans would rather risk a woman as no 2 than a black man as top dog... which black guy would McCain have chosen had Hilary won? Or would he have needed to? Would Sarah still be in the frozen wilderness political and geographical? All interesting but irrelevant.. we wait for November with bated breath...

[HighEnergy]

It amazes me that folks would rather vote based on colour than issues or facts. My sister has been in an interracial marriage for 26 years and told me a couple of weeks ago that in other elections where a candidate was black, say for senator or mayor, there is a 10% difference in what folks say to pollsters, and what they do behind the curtain. Even if they say they'll vote for a black person, they change their mind behind the curtain.

I know there are some who truly believe in their "third party choices" but this time around the stakes are too high to support them. We'll end up with McSame and a third round for Bush policies.

Anyway, here's something heartening. Watch the video. For these staunchly conservative folks, including George Will to be so negative about McCain is fantastic. "John McCain showed his personality this week and made some of us fearful."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/21/abc-panel-tears-into-mcca_n_128055.html

[Sarasvati]

The choice you Americans make in November is crucially relevant to the rest of us outside your borders. In the ever changing uncertainties of the new world order the actions of the American government will impact on us all. The axis is shifting away from the West - it mustn't be allowed to.

As far as I can tell Obama's idea of change is mostly based on race. His policies seem to be old fashioned tax and spend. On Iraq, you can pull out your troops and leave Iran all powerful in the region and the Iraqi people to rot. The hatred that large parts of the world has for America will not disappear. All choices have potentially disastrous consequences. Obama will have to confront them. Will he do any better than his predecessor?

I thank it is a heavy burden for the black community for so much emphasis to be placed on Obama's racial origin.

I fear Obama could become like George Bush in America or Tony Blair in Britain, ultimately detested by the people who voted them in.

If that were to happen it shouldn't be allowed to reflect on the black community - but that's how a failure of Obama's administration may be taken.

The support for Obama should not be based on detestation of George Bush and McCain or on his racial background but solely on his policies.

There seems nothing new or visionary in those, as far as I can see anyway.

Obama has come across to me as a great showman but, if he is in office next year, the show will have to end and the difficult choices confronted head on. Failure to do this will be costly to us all.

Tony Blair spun and posed his way through his tenure as our PM in the UK - and now we've all got to pay for the dubious privilege.

I hope Obama soon gives a sign that he is something more than a cabaret artist.

[12voltman59]

The choice you Americans make in November is crucially relevant to the rest of us outside your borders. In the ever changing uncertainties of the new world order the actions of the American government will impact on us all. The axis is shifting away from the West - it mustn't be allowed to.

As far as I can tell Obama's idea of change is mostly based on race. His policies seem to be old fashioned tax and spend. On Iraq, you can pull out your troops and leave Iran all powerful in the region and the Iraqi people to rot. The hatred that large parts of the world has for America will not disappear. All choices have potentially disastrous consequences. Obama will have to confront them. Will he do any better than his predecessor?

I thank it is a heavy burden for the black community for so much emphasis to be placed on Obama's racial origin.

I fear Obama could become like George Bush in America or Tony Blair in Britain, ultimately detested by the people who voted them in.

If that were to happen it shouldn't be allowed to reflect on the black community - but that's how a failure of Obama's administration may be taken.

The support for Obama should not be based on detestation of George Bush and McCain or on his racial background but solely on his policies.

There seems nothing new or visionary in those, as far as I can see anyway.

Obama has come across to me as a great showman but, if he is in office next year, the show will have to end and the difficult choices confronted head on. Failure to do this will be costly to us all.

Tony Blair spun and posed his way through his tenure as our PM in the UK - and now we've all got to pay for the dubious privilege.

I hope Obama soon gives a sign that he is something more than a cabaret artist.

Do you think that John McCain is really going to be any better?? He is sort of a flip side of the coin---and God help us if McCain gets into office, he dies and Sarah Palin becomes president!!!

Someone dissed me in a post saying that Obama will get eaten up by Putin (Putin is the puppet master in a newly aggressive Russia)--but do you think that SARAH can stand her ground with the likes of a former KGB agent??

Get real!!!

And lets face it---like it or not--the Republicans have been running things the past eight years--even with a year and a half or so of Demorcratic leadership in the House and Senate--the Republicans still have enough numbers that they served as obstructionists--and along with ineffective leadership from Pelosi and Reed--the Dems were pretty hapless.

The thing is for me----the Republicans have been running things for eight years and they, as good as their myth making machine is in having it that they are so good at running two things--wars and the economy----they have totally FUCKED UP both of those things royally!!!!

So in the time honored way of American politics, I say:

"THROW DA BUMS OOUUUUTTTT!!!!

Going back to the topic of this thread----race has always played a role in American, presidential electoral politics since the time of the founding of the republic---why should this election be any different???

[jamieknyc]

One thing that is not easy to explain to you guys from the UK and other non-Americans:

The huge majority of people who support Obama are white, and a large part of the reason for it is that Obama plays into white people's psychology. In the eyes of white voters, Obama's blackness is sufficiently denatured (raised by his white mother in a lily-white suburb, while the father, who was an African from Africa and not an American black, left his mother when he was an infant and went back to Kenya) to be free of association with the 'angry black' image that most whites have of American blacks. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard some white person say "Obama is whiter than I am" I could pay for you guys to come over here from the UK to see for yourselves.

[darkeyes]

One thing that is not easy to explain to you guys from the UK and other non-Americans:

The huge majority of people who support Obama are white, and a large part of the reason for it is that Obama plays into white people's psychology. In the eyes of white voters, Obama's blackness is sufficiently denatured (raised by his white mother in a lily-white suburb, while the father, who was an African from Africa and not an American black, left his mother when he was an infant and went back to Kenya) to be free of association with the 'angry black' image that most whites have of American blacks. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard some white person say "Obama is whiter than I am" I could pay for you guys to come over here from the UK to see for yourselves.A reasonable thing to say Jamie, since if he didnt have a large white vote he could never be elected.. but racists dont care what a person's upbringing is..they are simply fixed on the colour of the skin and his or her heritage...

[12voltman59]

Jaime--I am not supporting Barak Obama because he is black---even though I think it is a good thing if he gets elected in spite of the fact he is black---I am voting for him---because for the most part----he represents my values, policies, the "direction I want this country to go" and all of that----Obama was not my first choice for the Democratic nominee for president, neither was Hillary--but Obama picked my man as he Veep choice--so for me--all the better!!!! That Barak chose Biden as his running mate and John McCain chose who he did as his choice---only served to totally "seal the deal" for me!!!! Barak Obama is getting my vote, without any question or equivocation now!!!

And going back to what I said above--only those the most hooked on the Republican Kool Aide cannot think that Republican rule these past eight years has been anything but a major train wreck----so just like in times past---it is axiomatic in politics---that those who ran an economy that went very sour get their asses booted---the Republicans had their chance at running things and they fucked it up royally!!

Its time for 'em to go!!!!!

[darkeyes]

I dont care about the colour of a persons skin, or their gender, certainly not their sexuality when casting my vote in an election.. nor care I for any of those things when casting my vote for a party in a general election.. what matters to me is policy and principle, and a vision of society I can understand and accept as being closest to my own. For that reason Votlie me luff u have kind of restored my faith in why at least many people vote.. not against something or someone, but positively in favour of something..

Since I was a 14 I have been actively involved in the politics of the Labour Party in my country.. before in a sort of unofficial sense as my parents were and are active members. Its history and its principles, its ideals and its defence of ordinary people have been instilled in me all my life. My membership of Labour has not been an easy and always tranquil relationship..especially since the inception of the Blair leadership after the death of John Smith in 1994 and his transformation of Labour from a socialist party into an increasingly wishy washy unprincipled and decidedly unsocialist organisation packed with middle class "worthies" and increasingly alienating and ignoring its historical base... the working classes and underprivileged, the poor and sick and those least able to defend themselves. Assuredly it has always had a considerable middle class support, and this support has always been extremely influential, often to the detriment of the less well off, and of the ideals and principles upon which it was founded. Today however that middle class support is not merely support and influence but domination.

To its credit, the Blair government did many fine and laudable things, but for all that few of its achievements furthered my idea of what a society should be, for it also entrenched the nation with right wing often "Thatcherite" philosophies, certainly in the economic sphere. The UK, while it is a more compassionate and arguably fair land in which to live than it was prior to Blair's premiership, remains in essence locked into those bankrupt philosphies. Gordon Brown has had the misfortune of a swiftly deteriorating world economic situation and I fear his government will pay the electoral price for something which was not entirely of its own making and Browns wish to return Labour some way at least to its historical roots will never be realised. Such is the strength of the Blairrite wing of the party I doubt whether it can be even in the best of times...

In the wings awaits Mr Smoothie, a shiny faced, brylcremed quite ghastly Tory politician who is anathema to everything I believe in and who will further the interests not of the people of this country but of vested interest and the rich. He will return the UK to the politics of fear and undo as much as he can of everything good which has been done over the last 12 years. The UK will once again become a xenophobic rather unpleasant place in which to live, and where privilege and class will count for much more than even it does today.

Now what you may ask has any of this to do with Obama, McCain and the US elections? Should McCain win, then I have no doubt whatsoever the Tories and Mr Smoothie will win here in 2010, and our politics will mirror to a great extent those of the US. To me that is scary. However should Obama win, and is at least successful in his first term, this gives me hope that this country may just avoid the tribulation of electing a right wing government of intolerance and privilege, since to some degree the close links between the Democratic Party of the US and the Labour Party here will enable a partial British basking in the sun of Obama. This will not guarantee a defeat of Conservatism here, but provides those of us who are anti Tory some hope that it can be achieved.

Of course there are many other reasons why I hope Obama wins, reasons of a wish for peace in the world, a better and more fair economic way for all nations, more concern and action over the climate and the environment to name but a few... if he does get elected I only hope he lives, at least in part, up to expectations and is not the great disappointment I fear he may just prove to be. For now he is hope, but hopes often wither and die... my fingers are well and truly crossed...

I end this little tome with a regret..a regret that finally I am no longer a part of what was once a great party of change. After half a lifetime spent arguing within it for real progress to achieve what it has historically stood for, and arguing against the Blairite vision (which remains predominant) of New Labour I am done with it. It is not the party I grew up in and with for it no longer believes in and stands for the same things I do. Its vision for my country, the British people and the world are now far too radically different. Politically I am now a stateless person for there currently exists no party to which I can give the same allegiance and conviction I once gave to Labour. My fear is that in my lifetime there never shall be...but I am keeping my eyes peeled.. and hope springs eternal..

[Falke]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/22/race.politics/index.html

Wasnt too surprised to read this. No doubt Hilary would have had similar figures for sexism had it been she who had won the Democratic nomination... Racism then alive and well.. when will we ever learn that "A Man's A Man For A' That??"


Agreed. Like or dislike someone for who they are, not for their appearance. I was very disappointed any of this came into play this election year.

[vittoria]

Agreed. Like or dislike someone for who they are, not for their appearance. I was very disappointed any of this came into play this election year.

Why be disappointed... its the Amurikan way after all :tong:

From the days of "Birth of a Nation" til now, in the words of the Talking Heads (band) "same as it ever was... same as it ever was"

[Sarasvati]

Of course there are many other reasons why I hope Obama wins, reasons of a wish for peace in the world, a better and more fair economic way for all nations, more concern and action over the climate and the environment to name but a few... if he does get elected I only hope he lives, at least in part, up to expectations and is not the great disappointment I fear he may just prove to be. For now he is hope, but hopes often wither and die... my fingers are well and truly crossed...

I end this little tome with a regret..a regret that finally I am no longer a part of what was once a great party of change. After half a lifetime spent arguing within it for real progress to achieve what it has historically stood for, and arguing against the Blairite vision (which remains predominant) of New Labour I am done with it. It is not the party I grew up in and with for it no longer believes in and stands for the same things I do. Its vision for my country, the British people and the world are now far too radically different. Politically I am now a stateless person for there currently exists no party to which I can give the same allegiance and conviction I once gave to Labour. My fear is that in my lifetime there never shall be...but I am keeping my eyes peeled.. and hope springs eternal..

Why on earth do you think Obama is interested in such things as world peace, fair economics or the environment? His job is the same as that of Bush or McCain - to keep Americans at the top of the pile.

Do you not have Scargill's Socialist Labour or Galloway's Respect party to choose from DE?

In my view, the methods of socialism achieve the opposite to the aims. If a socialist utopia was possible it would have already occurred as so many people desire its ideals. The fact that no socialist utopia has ever existed proves that it is impossible.

Human societies are naturally pyramidal, unless they are nomadic or in a state of collapse. The socialist aspiration has resulted in Napoleon, Stalin, Mao and Castro. High principles rapidly give way to over authoritarianism on a grand scale, individual freedoms are crushed and new classes associated with the army and the police force rise in influence.

In the English speaking world we have inherited something much better than that - liberal democracy maintained by capitalism.

Defend it with your heart and soul.

If Obama fails to do that, we will all suffer the consequences.

[azirish]

You are aware that every terrorist entity has endorsed our "muslim" candidate are you? Are you also aware that Obama is is not only close but in very in a "puppett" mode for his racist "rev" Jeraimiah Wright...are you "aware" of that. Let's not even mention the "revs" close love for the "great" Louis Farahan are you "aware" of that also? Are you a "self loathing" Jew or a "self loathing" "white devil" as Obama or Oprah, or "Rev" Wright would call "us"? Think about it some more.




Do you think that John McCain is really going to be any better?? He is sort of a flip side of the coin---and God help us if McCain gets into office, he dies and Sarah Palin becomes president!!!

Someone dissed me in a post saying that Obama will get eaten up by Putin (Putin is the puppet master in a newly aggressive Russia)--but do you think that SARAH can stand her ground with the likes of a former KGB agent??

Get real!!!

And lets face it---like it or not--the Republicans have been running things the past eight years--even with a year and a half or so of Demorcratic leadership in the House and Senate--the Republicans still have enough numbers that they served as obstructionists--and along with ineffective leadership from Pelosi and Reed--the Dems were pretty hapless.

The thing is for me----the Republicans have been running things for eight years and they, as good as their myth making machine is in having it that they are so good at running two things--wars and the economy----they have totally FUCKED UP both of those things royally!!!!

So in the time honored way of American politics, I say:

"THROW DA BUMS OOUUUUTTTT!!!!

Going back to the topic of this thread----race has always played a role in American, presidential electoral politics since the time of the founding of the republic---why should this election be any different???

[darkeyes]

Why on earth do you think Obama is interested in such things as world peace, fair economics or the environment? His job is the same as that of Bush or McCain - to keep Americans at the top of the pile.

Do you not have Scargill's Socialist Labour or Galloway's Respect party to choose from DE?

In my view, the methods of socialism achieve the opposite to the aims. If a socialist utopia was possible it would have already occurred as so many people desire its ideals. The fact that no socialist utopia has ever existed proves that it is impossible.

Human societies are naturally pyramidal, unless they are nomadic or in a state of collapse. The socialist aspiration has resulted in Napoleon, Stalin, Mao and Castro. High principles rapidly give way to over authoritarianism on a grand scale, individual freedoms are crushed and new classes associated with the army and the police force rise in influence.

In the English speaking world we have inherited something much better than that - liberal democracy maintained by capitalism.You dont half disappoint me S me luff... your questions and arguments are spurious and rather tedious and silly. I expected better of you.

I am not a fool.. and know exactly why any American President is elected.. but Obama is a hope.. and I hope from him for more compassion and less agressiveness than from his predecessor.. for greater international cooperation and understanding toward other nations, more action on climate change and the environment, greater conservation and many other things. I know I am likely to be disappointed in much, possibly all of what he actually does, but without hope there can only be resignation and despair.. I believe it is possible for the head of the richest and most powerful nation on earth to do good, and to help the world become a better place for us all..the leaders of every nation on earth have that responsibility and mostly they all let us down.. but every so often there arises someone who exceeds the hope they bring... Obama may or may not.. I am as dubious as any on that score... but I hope..and who knows..maybe he will...

Regarding Scargill and Galloways parties...the answer is no and no.. and in Scotland neither does the SSP attract my interest..even if any of them did I would still not jump over to any of them without taking stock... that could be a bit like jumping out of the frying pan.. and I like to think about what I am doing before actually doing it..

..and the statement about socialism never being possible and having been proven not to be feasible is fallacious... we simply do not know... a few hundred years ago few would believe we could have any other form of government save the divine right of kings to rule.. a civil war put paid to that in the 17th century.. the fact is we do not know what humankind can devise or make work.. and provide people the freedom they deserve.. if we have centuries or millenia of human existence yet to come.. we wont recognise much of how the people of the times govern themselves or are governed... we dont know..I just happen to believe.. they may even think up something even superior to anything yet considered and perfected it...and if u think liberal democracy allied to capitalism is the best we can come up with, then I pity your lack of imagination and ambition for our species... in a few hundred years it will be but a distant memory written up in history books just as every other form of government of the past is written up in those of today...

Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it...:tong:

[vitt&cho]

You are aware that every terrorist entity has endorsed our "muslim" candidate are you? Are you also aware that Obama is is not only close but in very in a "puppett" mode for his racist "rev" Jeraimiah Wright...are you "aware" of that. Let's not even mention the "revs" close love for the "great" Louis Farahan are you "aware" of that also? Are you a "self loathing" Jew or a "self loathing" "white devil" as Obama or Oprah, or "Rev" Wright would call "us"? Think about it some more.

Yeah yeah yeah... we know, Barack Obama( who happens to be a cousin of GW Bush BTW)'s middle name is "Hussein" so that makes him a muslim...(wouldnt that make bush a muslim by marriage?!? :eek2: you know "once you go black...." ;) ...are Amurikans skeered that "they'll never go back"?!?:eek2: )

My middle name is "Elisha"... that makes me Hebrew.:rolleyes: bwaaah hahahaha! :cutelaugh

O yeah, and here's something interesting...
We know you're literate, but in case you havent noticed, no where is it written ( other than by Rush Limbaugh and other GOPeeps) that Barack Obama is "muslim"--(OMG!!! THE MAN WITH THE SCARY NAME THAT IS ALMOST LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!) And what about Palin's church? I suppose you support her drive to rid all of us bisexual/gay/lesbian/transgendereds off of the face of the planet because "Gawd sed so" since it seems that many on her support her and her ilk that hate us OPENLY... and while I'm STILL trying to Google(tm) where the hell Oprah called "Caucasian" people (not TRUE Caucasians, if you look it up) "white devils"... Umm.. personally I thought about it...

and I am glad that my Irish great grandparents brought us up with some sense and brains about race and ideological garbage... not like the Southern Irishmen who made up the "KU Klux Klan" (LOOK IT UP... the book is titled "Notre Dame versus the Klan"--- its EXCELLENT) which it appears, in almost every post, you vernerate.

On that note, I'll just roll over and go back to sleep.. and wonder what a good Irishman like John Fitzgerald Kennedy (et al) would think about your "words of wisdom" (Let it Be... for goodness sake!)

[DiamondDog]

What if Obama doesn't win?

[vittoria]

Would anybody care? I know I really dont. Its interesting trivia at this point in the "game"

[DiamondDog]

I actually don't like either of the major two candidates but Obama does seem like the lesser of two evils.

I've seen people on other boards posting tons of stuff about Nader and just why people should vote for him and that's the last thing we need again.

[darkeyes]

You are aware that every terrorist entity has endorsed our "muslim" candidate are you? Are you also aware that Obama is is not only close but in very in a "puppett" mode for his racist "rev" Jeraimiah Wright...are you "aware" of that. Let's not even mention the "revs" close love for the "great" Louis Farahan are you "aware" of that also? Are you a "self loathing" Jew or a "self loathing" "white devil" as Obama or Oprah, or "Rev" Wright would call "us"? Think about it some more.

*grabs the bar of carbolic.. washes Azirish's mouth out... rolls eyes and wonders if he thinks at all...*

Yes sir... bigotry seems 2 b alive an well...:(

[Sarasvati]

You dont half disappoint me S me luff... your questions and arguments are spurious and rather tedious and silly. I expected better of you.

I am not a fool.. and know exactly why any American President is elected.. but Obama is a hope.. and I hope from him for more compassion and less agressiveness than from his predecessor.. for greater international cooperation and understanding toward other nations, more action on climate change and the environment, greater conservation and many other things. I know I am likely to be disappointed in much, possibly all of what he actually does, but without hope there can only be resignation and despair.. I believe it is possible for the head of the richest and most powerful nation on earth to do good, and to help the world become a better place for us all..the leaders of every nation on earth have that responsibility and mostly they all let us down.. but every so often there arises someone who exceeds the hope they bring... Obama may or may not.. I am as dubious as any on that score... but I hope..and who knows..maybe he will...

Regarding Scargill and Galloways parties...the answer is no and no.. and in Scotland neither does the SSP attract my interest..even if any of them did I would still not jump over to any of them without taking stock... that could be a bit like jumping out of the frying pan.. and I like to think about what I am doing before actually doing it..

..and the statement about socialism never being possible and having been proven not to be feasible is fallacious... we simply do not know... a few hundred years ago few would believe we could have any other form of government save the divine right of kings to rule.. a civil war put paid to that in the 17th century.. the fact is we do not know what humankind can devise or make work.. and provide people the freedom they deserve.. if we have centuries or millenia of human existence yet to come.. we wont recognise much of how the people of the times govern themselves or are governed... we dont know..I just happen to believe.. they may even think up something even superior to anything yet considered and perfected it...and if u think liberal democracy allied to capitalism is the best we can come up with, then I pity your lack of imagination and ambition for our species... in a few hundred years it will be but a distant memory written up in history books just as every other form of government of the past is written up in those of today...

Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it...:tong:

Drawing on a great big hookah I delight in the culture that fosters such sweet naivety.

[darkeyes]

Drawing on a great big hookah I delight in the culture that fosters such sweet naivety.

Naive huh? So S me luffly..ya has the sight an kno wot the future holds.. God life mus b borin wenya knos wots cummin..;)

[Sarasvati]

Naive huh? So S me luffly..ya has the sight an kno wot the future holds.. God life mus b borin wenya knos wots cummin..;)

You are reflecting your own position, as evidenced by many of your posts, rather than mine.

[darkeyes]

You are reflecting your own position, as evidenced by many of your posts, rather than mine.Notha spurious an daft post S hun...course wot me rites reflects me own position..wudn b so arrogant as 2 assume urs or ne 1 elses..

[12voltman59]

I have Azrish on ignore so I didn't know what he said--till someone shared it's content with me and man---WHAT IN THE HECK IS THAT DUUUUUDDDDEEE SMOKIN' OR DRINKIN"--I don't want to take it--but I sure would like to be his dealer--that is some strong shhhhittt mannn!!!!

Where did he get that stuff about Obama?? Out of his ass???? I don't even think that Fat Man Rush has even gone that far, nor has Ann T-Girl Coulter (no offense to our T-gals on here), Laura Ingraham or even Michelle Malkin have gone that far--maybe G. Gordon Liddy or Michael Savage----they are some pretty well whacked out and scary MoFos!!!

Man----these rightwing nut freaks really got to be smokin's some major whacky tobacki to come up with stuff that freaked out!!!!

And if Obama wins--we are probably fucked a bit--but if McCain and SARAH win---we are really FUCKED!!!!

"It's the end of the world as we know it---it's the end of the world as we know it ---it's the end of the world as we know it---and I feeeelll fine!!!!!"

[Sarasvati]

wudn b so arrogant as 2 assume urs or ne 1 elses..

That is what you did. Don't be so afraid of your mirror.

[gfofbiguy]

:eek:

[darkeyes]

That is what you did. Don't be so afraid of your mirror.
Wud ya care 2 elaborate on that statement??? Neva been afraid of the mirror... genrally likes wot me c's....

[Sarasvati]

Wud ya care 2 elaborate on that statement??? Neva been afraid of the mirror... genrally likes wot me c's....

Came on to the thread with the intention of erasing my previous post - our squabble was becoming too strung out.

Anyhow my comment was a metaphor - not to be taken literally. That should be transparently clear. It's just a way of suggesting to you to reread your own words. It, of course, refers nothing to your visual appearance as I have no idea of your appearance and wouldn't comment on such if I did.

Very often people attribute to others characteristics which they themselves display. I just thought you were giving examples of that which I wanted to highlight.

Please notice that you responded to my original post in this thread with personal insults to me. I don't mind that myself. But I think that if you choose that policy you can not complain if the recipient of those insults is antagonised.

Nevertheless I think we should let this go now. And I accept you have won this discussion with me. I am chastened by the experience.

Whatever you think of me I still have tremendous belief and admiration for the uniquely special person you are.

Perhaps some time you would be willing to enter into a more thorough discusion on the subject of socialism with me.

Best wishes

[vittoria]

too strung out.



'ludes, man.... 'ludes :cutelaugh

[someguy00]

There are going to be a lot of people who vote for Obama just because he is black. Am I the only one that thinks that's just as racist as not voting for him just because he's black?

[darkeyes]

Came on to the thread with the intention of erasing my previous post - our squabble was becoming too strung out.

Anyhow my comment was a metaphor - not to be taken literally. That should be transparently clear. It's just a way of suggesting to you to reread your own words. It, of course, refers nothing to your visual appearance as I have no idea of your appearance and wouldn't comment on such if I did.

Very often people attribute to others characteristics which they themselves display. I just thought you were giving examples of that which I wanted to highlight.

Please notice that you responded to my original post in this thread with personal insults to me. I don't mind that myself. But I think that if you choose that policy you can not complain if the recipient of those insults is antagonised.

Nevertheless I think we should let this go now. And I accept you have won this discussion with me. I am chastened by the experience.

Whatever you think of me I still have tremendous belief and admiration for the uniquely special person you are.

Perhaps some time you would be willing to enter into a more thorough discusion on the subject of socialism with me.

Best wishes
S at no time wos me insultin ya... mayb got a lil tetchy wiv what me saw wos u talkin nonsense, but its a tendency wich sumtimes breaks out in a bad bouta sarcasm an p***takin.. that me wos disappointed in ya arguments and questions wos self evident, but thats no reason 2 fall out wiv peeps.. its not bout winnin or losin S..its bout debatin, arguin, informin an stretchin minds..makin peeps think... in places like forums thats all we can do.. the reel world is wot mattas, an if we influence jus 1 person by our words in places like this then its all worth wile.. then gain..a gud barney is always worth wile..:bigrin:

Ne ways.. kissie an make up ya silly sod..don take things personally cos they wernt meant that way..

An bout lookin in the mirror?? Wosn talkin bout me personal appearance eitha as it happens... though can c readin bak wy ya mite think me wos...

Muah and hav big huggle:tong:

[Sarasvati]

S at no time wos me insultin ya... mayb got a lil tetchy wiv what me saw wos u talkin nonsense, but its a tendency wich sumtimes breaks out in a bad bouta sarcasm an p***takin.. that me wos disappointed in ya arguments and questions wos self evident, but thats no reason 2 fall out wiv peeps.. its not bout winnin or losin S..its bout debatin, arguin, informin an stretchin minds..makin peeps think... in places like forums thats all we can do.. the reel world is wot mattas, an if we influence jus 1 person by our words in places like this then its all worth wile.. then gain..a gud barney is always worth wile..:bigrin:

Ne ways.. kissie an make up ya silly sod..don take things personally cos they wernt meant that way..

An bout lookin in the mirror?? Wosn talkin bout me personal appearance eitha as it happens... though can c readin bak wy ya mite think me wos...

Muah and hav big huggle:tong:

But the truth is your arguments were much better than mine. I have had no choice but to accept that I had been talking balderdash.

What a silly sod I've been. Thank you for showing me DE.

Good luck fair friend

[fairbankswingers]

Racism is human nature, and it even exisits in Europe...Nazi party is alive and well there as well...anti muslim activity in Paris, so it is not just an American problem...as for this years race sexism is also being shown from the other side so not one group is better then the other...all sides are saying and doing what they can to win...even if it means blaming "race"

[darkeyes]

Racism is human nature, and it even exisits in Europe...Nazi party is alive and well there as well...anti muslim activity in Paris, so it is not just an American problem...as for this years race sexism is also being shown from the other side so not one group is better then the other...all sides are saying and doing what they can to win...even if it means blaming "race"

Racism is a learned thing .. it is not natural.. if you have half a dozen sub school age kids in a playgroup, say, chinese, european, arab, jewish, chinese, latino and Maori (ok 7) they would get along quite happily and laugh play and shed tears along with each other.. they dont care about the differences in their skin, their eyes or anything else.. they care for their playmates.. it is when they are exposed to the wider world, and have greater contact with adults that their tolerances and intolerances begin to be formed.. they learn from their parents, and the world about them.. we teach our children our values in an effort to make them into the kind of human beings we wish them to be.. some teach them bigotry.. too many teach them bigotry..

[vittoria]

There are going to be a lot of people who vote for Obama just because he is black. Am I the only one that thinks that's just as racist as not voting for him just because he's black?


People are so worried about color coordination... and they arent even fashionistas!!! :tong:

At this point, there's only one race on this planet that I'm concerned about: the human race.


I'm voting for Leonard Nimoy because he played a Vulcan on television. Completely logical :cutelaugh

Better yet... I'm putting Stephen Colbert back on the ballot. At least he addresses us (as in the entire UnTIED States) as "nation"! :)

[jamieknyc]

Jaime--I am not supporting Barak Obama because he is black---even though I think it is a good thing if he gets elected in spite of the fact he is black---I am voting for him---because for the most part----he represents my values, policies, the "direction I want this country to go" and all of that----Obama was not my first choice for the Democratic nominee for president, neither was Hillary--but Obama picked my man as he Veep choice--so for me--all the better!!!! That Barak chose Biden as his running mate and John McCain chose who he did as his choice---only served to totally "seal the deal" for me!!!! Barak Obama is getting my vote, without any question or equivocation now!!!

And going back to what I said above--only those the most hooked on the Republican Kool Aide cannot think that Republican rule these past eight years has been anything but a major train wreck----so just like in times past---it is axiomatic in politics---that those who ran an economy that went very sour get their asses booted---the Republicans had their chance at running things and they fucked it up royally!!

Its time for 'em to go!!!!!

You do realize that all of the talk about 'change' is just campaign rhetoric, and that a week after Obama is inaugurated it will be back to business as usual in Washington?

[fairbankswingers]

Racism is a learned thing .. it is not natural.. if you have half a dozen sub school age kids in a playgroup, say, chinese, european, arab, jewish, chinese, latino and Maori (ok 7) they would get along quite happily and laugh play and shed tears along with each other.. they dont care about the differences in their skin, their eyes or anything else.. they care for their playmates.. it is when they are exposed to the wider world, and have greater contact with adults that their tolerances and intolerances begin to be formed.. they learn from their parents, and the world about them.. we teach our children our values in an effort to make them into the kind of human beings we wish them to be.. some teach them bigotry.. too many teach them bigotry..
My point was you were attempting to say we as americans are racist...I was attempting to bring the problems from through-out the world to include London up...how many Irishmen can find good work in downtown london? I was stationed there a few years ago...racism exisits in EVERY CULTURE....that was my point

[darkeyes]

My point was you were attempting to say we as americans are racist...I was attempting to bring the problems from through-out the world to include London up...how many Irishmen can find good work in downtown london? I was stationed there a few years ago...racism exisits in EVERY CULTURE....that was my point

Sweetheart, I have never intended to claim that Americans alone are racist.. every nation has its racists as does every ethnic group.. this country has more than its fair share of racist arseholes, but the US like every other country and every ethnic group also has its decent people who are that majority who hate racism as the odious evil that it is... I started the thread because it is topical and important to me and I think to others, not to do down Americans as a group or as a nation..

[Sarasvati]

My point was you were attempting to say we as americans are racist...I was attempting to bring the problems from through-out the world to include London up...how many Irishmen can find good work in downtown london? I was stationed there a few years ago...racism exisits in EVERY CULTURE....that was my point

I don't think either DE or I would suggest that Britain doesn't have its own problem with racism. We are commenting on the American situation, not because it is worse than anywhere else, but because race is a topical focal point in your current presidential campaigns.

Nevertheless I would like to defend London as quite possibly the most racially diverse and racially harmonious city in the world, and yet we also still have serious racial problems. But the trend among most of us is utterly opposed to racism.

Archetypal Britons now are people such as Lewis Hamilton and Theo Walcott -we are no longer a homogenously white people.

Foreign detractors accuse our sports teams of relying on non Britons forgetting the fact that such people absolutely are every bit as British as anyone else.

While we may not have a black candidate running for Prime Minister I am quite certain my countrymen would jump at the chance to have a black Prime Minister.

We have a black man, John Sentamu, as Archbishop of York, the 2nd highest office in the Church of England. He is extremely popular.

[darkeyes]

how many Irishmen can find good work in downtown london? lots..and in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and all the other towns and cities of the UK.. that is not to say that there is not an element of anti Irish feeling within certain parts of the British community there is, especially in the west of Scotland, but that is more to do with the religious divide as has to do with an ethnic thing, but mostly the Irish are welcomed as valuable and important addition to the multiculturalism that is the UK.. there is probably more anti English feeling in Scotland however than there is anti Irish, as there is in Wales, and Northern Ireland, and in England there are large tracts of the English native community who dont like any of their Celtic neighbours.. equally in the Irish Republic there are certain less than enlightened people who dont like the English or the Scots too much, and have no time for their protestant Northern Irish countrymen...and vice versa..

So we all have our problems do we not?? But most of us take each other for what we are..which is that we are a' Jock Tamsons bairns...:bigrin:... and that is right and just...

[MissyMissy]

i just dont get any of it. i dont see the man as black or white. he is mixed. i am of mixed "races" too. i dont see him as a "black" hero. or anyones hero. just as a man trying to become president. and on tv they always bring that up , that his mommy is white his daddy black. i want to see a man who is smart, knows what he is doing blah blah blah. and i actually dont like any of em but have to choose one. who? i am not sure. cause i dont care for mccain or obabma ect. but so far obama is winning in my head. even if i dont care for any of em.

[vittoria]

i just dont get any of it. i dont see the man as black or white. he is mixed. i am of mixed "races" too. i dont see him as a "black" hero. or anyones hero. just as a man trying to become president. and on tv they always bring that up , that his mommy is white his daddy black. i want to see a man who is smart, knows what he is doing blah blah blah. and i actually dont like any of em but have to choose one. who? i am not sure. cause i dont care for mccain or obabma ect. but so far obama is winning in my head. even if i dont care for any of em.


because this country's mentality is "breeding" based.
use farming language for a moment...

its all about stud, breeding, stock (funny how many interesting definitions you have for "stocks" and "bonds" :eek2: ). the topic is STILL the "ultimate taboo" in this horrid place, because it has been so ingrained in the populace that its so wrong...

for example, look up the history of Australia... interesting stuff!

[darkeyes]

There is but one race.. and its about time everyone got on accepted that fact...

[hydropop]

You are aware that every terrorist entity has endorsed our "muslim" candidate are you? Are you also aware that Obama is is not only close but in very in a "puppett" mode for his racist "rev" Jeraimiah Wright...are you "aware" of that. Let's not even mention the "revs" close love for the "great" Louis Farahan are you "aware" of that also? Are you a "self loathing" Jew or a "self loathing" "white devil" as Obama or Oprah, or "Rev" Wright would call "us"? Think about it some more.



Well put , I dont think anyone remembers any of that.

[allbimyself]

Well put , I dont think anyone remembers any of that.Well put? It wasn't even literate! And don't worry, none of the hate mongers that believe this will ever forget it.

[fairbankswingers]

lots..and in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and all the other towns and cities of the UK.. that is not to say that there is not an element of anti Irish feeling within certain parts of the British community there is, especially in the west of Scotland, but that is more to do with the religious divide as has to do with an ethnic thing, but mostly the Irish are welcomed as valuable and important addition to the multiculturalism that is the UK.. there is probably more anti English feeling in Scotland however than there is anti Irish, as there is in Wales, and Northern Ireland, and in England there are large tracts of the English native community who dont like any of their Celtic neighbours.. equally in the Irish Republic there are certain less than enlightened people who dont like the English or the Scots too much, and have no time for their protestant Northern Irish countrymen...and vice versa..

So we all have our problems do we not?? But most of us take each other for what we are..which is that we are a' Jock Tamsons bairns...:bigrin:... and that is right and just...

Trust me whan I say this...I am retired USAF...I spent the majority of my enlistment overseas becuase I love the world and the differant cultures...I never judge anyone on just thier apperance, I will tell you I could care less if you are from whereever or whorship whomever...I will say being bisexual in the ,ilitary was hard...VERY hard but that is for another time...I was only attmepting to say we ALL as a human race PREJUDGE folks, it is how we act towards those PREJUDGES...:)

[12voltman59]

You do realize that all of the talk about 'change' is just campaign rhetoric, and that a week after Obama is inaugurated it will be back to business as usual in Washington?

Jaime---I have been doing things with politicians for nearly 30 years now and know--that most of what they say in politican campaigns is so much hooey--

To me--it is enough of a change that the presidency of George W. Bush is over and I sure as hell don't want a subsequent presidential adminstration to folllow in the same basic path as the Bush administration---to get rid of Bush and his policies is good of enough of a change for me----John McCain--for all practical purposes is simply the third Bush term--my god-eight years of George W. Bush is going to take the next 50 or so years at least to set right-if it can be---we don't need four more years of this crap!!

Change for me is closing the book on the Bush/Cheney Adminstration and not having John McCain follow along in the same fashion--that is change that is more than enough!!!

[azirish]

*grabs the bar of carbolic.. washes Azirish's mouth out... rolls eyes and wonders if he thinks at all...*

Yes sir... bigotry seems 2 b alive an well...:(

Yes, anyone who dares to say ANYTHING about our mesiah is racist!!!! Yes, blacks who vote for him only because he is black...aren't racist but anyone who choses to vote for neither is?

[darkeyes]

Yes, anyone who dares to say ANYTHING about our mesiah is racist!!!! Yes, blacks who vote for him only because he is black...aren't racist but anyone who choses to vote for neither is?

Hun 1 thing u have to realise.. from my point of view Obama is no saviour... cant even vote for that matter but for all the fact I am not American if elected he will have a lot to say how my world develops and prospers or otherwise..same for McCain for that matter... so I have a right to express a view..from MY point of view he is just the best on offer in a land far away of which I know a bit who will affect a world about which I know a lot more...

However.. when I say he is not a saviour, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. He is at best damage limitation, with McCain should he win being damage in the extreme.. Obama is in my eyes a right wing politician who shares little of my ideals and none of my vision for the world..he is not a socialist, not an idealist and I would rather you had someone I believed was more in line with my own beliefs.. I defend him because he is merely the best of a bad bunch.. not because he is black green pink, a martian or anything else. I criticise you because your language is that of the intolerant arseholes who bring so much misunderstanding, bigotry and misery to the world, because you are unable to argue coherently on policy in any way which is remotely comprehensible to any reasonably intelligent human being. The kind of language you have used is beneath any human being who has any compassion, dignity and common decency. You use emotive hysterical personal attack because you have not yet learned to do joined up writing in a political sense. Come to think of it, you have yet to learn your ah bi ke...

When the day comes I need to attack Obama or any American President, or any British PM, it will not be by use of the language of the idiot. It will at no time involve the use of any language which can be construed as racist or bigotted in any way... it will be by critique and analysis of his activities and by trying to explain what he has done wrong and why and extrapolating my own view of what should be done. In short..it will be on his policy.. not on anything else.

Once you have graduated from the creche and come off your political nappies, maybe then I will listen to what you have to say and give it credence.. until then I suggest you take up reading and try and learn something about the world and its inhabitants before you open your gob and let your belly rumble...

[anon092708]

What a bunch of crap.

How come there are no polls showing "minority" racial attitudes towards "whites?" I know for a *fact* that with "African" Americans, a *lot* more than 40% would have negative racial attitudes towards "whites." But, nobody does those polls.

Why is it that 90%+ of "African" Americans are voting for Obama, versus about 50%/50% for "whites"?

Nobody asks that question. I'm the only one who has balls enough to ask such a simple question, despite the answer. Let alone the media, who wouldn't be caught dead doing that.

[Sarasvati]

Hun 1 thing u have to realise.. from my point of view Obama is no saviour... cant even vote for that matter but for all the fact I am not American if elected he will have a lot to say how my world develops and prospers or otherwise..same for McCain for that matter... so I have a right to express a view..from MY point of view he is just the best on offer in a land far away of which I know a bit who will affect a world about which I know a lot more...

However.. when I say he is not a saviour, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. He is at best damage limitation, with McCain should he win being damage in the extreme.. Obama is in my eyes a right wing politician who shares little of my ideals and none of my vision for the world..he is not a socialist, not an idealist and I would rather you had someone I believed was more in line with my own beliefs.. I defend him because he is merely the best of a bad bunch.. not because he is black green pink, a martian or anything else. I criticise you because your language is that of the intolerant arseholes who bring so much misunderstanding, bigotry and misery to the world, because you are unable to argue coherently on policy in any way which is remotely comprehensible to any reasonably intelligent human being. The kind of language you have used is beneath any human being who has any compassion, dignity and common decency. You use emotive hysterical personal attack because you have not yet learned to do joined up writing in a political sense. Come to think of it, you have yet to learn your ah bi ke...

When the day comes I need to attack Obama or any American President, or any British PM, it will not be by use of the language of the idiot. It will at no time involve the use of any language which can be construed as racist or bigotted in any way... it will be by critique and analysis of his activities and by trying to explain what he has done wrong and why and extrapolating my own view of what should be done. In short..it will be on his policy.. not on anything else.

Once you have graduated from the creche and come off your political nappies, maybe then I will listen to what you have to say and give it credence.. until then I suggest you take up reading and try and learn something about the world and its inhabitants before you open your gob and let your belly rumble...

DE I think you may have misread Azirish. I can't see the bigotry you observe in him. He seems only to have posted up a number of question marks about some of those who are backing Obama. It is not unreasonable for a contributor here to do so.

There is a very understandable anger of African Americans towards the white American establishment considering the appalling history of slavery and segregation (please folks, I am aware us British have such a history of our own).

But the way to express that anger is not to join vengeful organisations that seek to undermine and assault America (like those lead by Farrakan) but to embrace its great strengths and accomplishments (eg., liberty, democracy, science, commerce, culture, the arts) and pursue with vigour new avenues for even more.

The USA has been demonised in the modern world across the globe. I say thank God for the USA, thank God that America has been the superpower and not the Soviet Union, or China, or the Nazis or the Japanese or, God forbid, the Saudis.

Be bold, be positive, be bright - don't surrender to defeatism.

[vittoria]

To quote MissyMissy's post...

(and I apply this only to us as bisexuals on this site and the conversation(s) that appear above)..

It appears to me, that even the hated can hate.:(

Theres multiple meanings in that.

[vitt&cho]

Yes, anyone who dares to say ANYTHING about our mesiah is racist!!!! Yes, blacks who vote for him only because he is black...aren't racist but anyone who choses to vote for neither is?



What a bunch of crap.

How come there are no polls showing "minority" racial attitudes towards "whites?" I know for a *fact* that with "African" Americans, a *lot* more than 40% would have negative racial attitudes towards "whites." But, nobody does those polls.

Why is it that 90%+ of "African" Americans are voting for Obama, versus about 50%/50% for "whites"?

Nobody asks that question. I'm the only one who has balls enough to ask such a simple question, despite the answer. Let alone the media, who wouldn't be caught dead doing that.










Um, why bitch?

It seems you dont like "blacks" (as you call them) anyway... so why do you care who they vote for? I mean really, if you dont like someone that damn bad, why invite them to your party? LMAO!

And, here's some funny food for thought..

Most "blacks" are Democrats anyway... it would make sense for them to vote for the party they are accustomed to.. just like everyone else..

IMHO, my :2cents: and facts

[BronzeBobby]

This is nonsense. Race is not a factor at all. Currently Obama is 8 points ahead in the Gallup poll and doing better than John Kerry 4 years ago. If anything being black has helped him because he's locked up the entire African American vote and now he's getting 2/3 of the Latino vote, which is more than Kerry won.

Having said that, I am voting for McCain because Obama is an inexperienced, posturing, unintelligent poser. I have no idea why everyone carries on about his intelligence when half the crap he says strikes me as wrong or dishonest. The other half seems heavily edited and focus-grouped.


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/22/race.politics/index.html

Wasnt too surprised to read this. No doubt Hilary would have had similar figures for sexism had it been she who had won the Democratic nomination... Racism then alive and well.. when will we ever learn that "A Man's A Man For A' That??"

Seems many Americans would rather risk a woman as no 2 than a black man as top dog... which black guy would McCain have chosen had Hilary won? Or would he have needed to? Would Sarah still be in the frozen wilderness political and geographical? All interesting but irrelevant.. we wait for November with bated breath...

[Sarasvati]

To quote MissyMissy's post...

(and I apply this only to us as bisexuals on this site and the conversation(s) that appear above)..

It appears to me, that even the hated can hate.:(

Theres multiple meanings in that.

This means nothing at all

[darkeyes]

DE I think you may have misread Azirish. I can't see the bigotry you observe in him. He seems only to have posted up a number of question marks about some of those who are backing Obama. It is not unreasonable for a contributor here to do so.

There is a very understandable anger of African Americans towards the white American establishment considering the appalling history of slavery and segregation (please folks, I am aware us British have such a history of our own).

But the way to express that anger is not to join vengeful organisations that seek to undermine and assault America (like those lead by Farrakan) but to embrace its great strengths and accomplishments (eg., liberty, democracy, science, commerce, culture, the arts) and pursue with vigour new avenues for even more.

The USA has been demonised in the modern world across the globe. I say thank God for the USA, thank God that America has been the superpower and not the Soviet Union, or China, or the Nazis or the Japanese or, God forbid, the Saudis.

Be bold, be positive, be bright - don't surrender to defeatism.

Uhuh.. u reckon?? U will note I have not accused him of being a racist..I have accused him of using the language of the intolerant..and he has by slur and innuendo.. if he genuinely has questions he wants answered let him ask them in a manner which is coherent and sensible, and not by inference that of the headless chicken..

I do not share your glowing view of the US S.. nor do I condemn it out of hand .. I do criticise its faults as I see them and its mistakes, as I do those of our own country.. if it has been demonised accross the globe that demonisation is of its own making with of course a little help from those who are not its friends.. as the British did when it was the worlds superpower, and Spain and Rome and others before them. It is greedy, selfish and will truck no serious challenge to that power and refuses to accept the rights of other nations to develop their own systems of politics.. it is neither democratic or free as it would have us believe.. neither is the UK or any other nation of the so called free world and in that it is certainly not the worst offender.. it is however the most powerful and influential.. of course it has done great things in the world. It has also done great harm. My hope is that Obama tips the balance toward doing greater good for the world than the propensity of Bush who has certainly been responsible for greater harm outweighing any good it has achieved..

[darkeyes]

This is nonsense. Race is not a factor at all. Currently Obama is 8 points ahead in the Gallup poll and doing better than John Kerry 4 years ago. If anything being black has helped him because he's locked up the entire African American vote and now he's getting 2/3 of the Latino vote, which is more than Kerry won.

Having said that, I am voting for McCain because Obama is an inexperienced, posturing, unintelligent poser. I have no idea why everyone carries on about his intelligence when half the crap he says strikes me as wrong or dishonest. The other half seems heavily edited and focus-grouped.

Dont be daft Bobby.. of course race plays a part..every election is different from the one before and are not entirely comparable..

I wont comment on your statements about Obama and McCain expect to say this..whenever I look at McCain and his body language, he reminds me so much of old video footage of ancient Soviet leaders of the 1970's and 80s who looked like they had been embalmed.. the only difference I can make out is that I know he can speak and understand his words such as they are..

I trust if he wins the US wont keep wheeling his corpse out to kid us on should he die in office..

U see?? We can all attack people based on nothing but our observation from afar..

[vittoria]

Even MORE proof that race shouldnt play a part in this election...
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/28/real-time-with-bill-maher-new-rules-look-beyond-the-candidates-skin-color/

he is absolutely right... we ALL should look pass the candidates skin color!

[azirish]

For the record, I'm not impressed with either Obama or McCain. Politics are politics...say anything do the opposite. The meaning of my previous post was to point out the obvious "double standard" for race-based politics. Neither has enough policies which I would support enough to vote for either of them. I call them "blacks" because they refer to others as "whites" and "hispanics" "asians" etc. no geographic indentity needed. (ie German, Americans, Russian Americans, Chinese Americans, Brazilian Americans etc, etc.) They simply refer to them as "whites" "asians" etc. Only do they mainstreme take a different tone and refer to "blacks" as "African Americans" why no geographic identity given to other groups?






Um, why bitch?

It seems you dont like "blacks" (as you call them) anyway... so why do you care who they vote for? I mean really, if you dont like someone that damn bad, why invite them to your party? LMAO!

And, here's some funny food for thought..

Most "blacks" are Democrats anyway... it would make sense for them to vote for the party they are accustomed to.. just like everyone else..

IMHO, my :2cents: and facts

[hydropop]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0924082obama1a.gif

Obama is just as bad as the neocons like Bush and Palin but he just hides it better! ;)

All you are is a rasist , and a idiot. I dont think you know a thing about anyoneor anything. It shows in the emials you sent to me , and others.

You need to look inside of you before you start throwing stones.

LOOSER

[vittoria]

ROFLMMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

:cutelaugh
:cutelaugh
:cutelaugh