America and guns

[tatooedpunk]

Sorry to get all righteous but what is it with (not all i know!) americans and guns. Just read a story in my local rag an EIGHT year old boy is in police custody charged with premeditated murder after shooting dead his father and another man. For gods sake why are guns available to buy in wall mart and does "the right to bear arms" not belong to a bygone age

[FalconAngel]

It isn't the guns so much as the lack of responsibility on the parent for allowing his weapon to be accessible to a child. The child doesn't know better, but the adult does.

The whole reason that we allow guns so freely in the US is because of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, which reads thus;

"Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The idea behind the Militia was to have men ready to come to the defense of their homes and nation in a moment's notice. What we used to call the "Minute Men" became, over time, the National Guard.

But the core idea is also that a well armed population would also be a deterrent to the development of a totalitarian government taking over.

To get the best understanding, you would really need to look at all of the issues that caused the War of Independence and the men that wrote our Constitution.

[TrimBeardHairyBod]

Hi Punk

We're all victims of our history, I'm afraid. The Americans could equally well ask us why we tolerate an upper house where membership is by appointment or heredity rather than by election.

[innaminka]

The issue - "guns" is past aruing.
there will never be any form of gun control in the US.
What it boils down to is responsibility and there seems to be a core mentality amongst many that it should be open slather.

Only in the US

[Hephaestion]

Regrettably Charlton Heston's phraseology of "it aint guns that kill people, it's people that kill people" rings true.

In the UK we have an epidemic of blade attacks and murders. The appaling thing is that there is knowledge that the attack is recorded (big brother does an awful lot of watching) and the culprits are nearly always caught.

Something is going wrong with the education of the young. Certainly violence appears glorified whatever the method and with few repercussions. There is a lack of understanding that someone can bleed to death very quickly with a blade or that organs can be damaged by ischaemia.

As for guns, one ER / Casualty Dept documentary showed a gun fight participant ending up as a victim (lucky to be alive) who expressed surprise that after the intial shock, it hurt like hell being wounded and that he was going to be permanently incapacitated - he was famiiar with 'noble and tranquil' film scenes where a sticking plaster dressing meant that you could carry on as normal after a quick drink and certainly appear in another film. The idea of necrotised peripheral tissue is never in the mind

So the question must be 'why did the 8 year old kill?' From reports, there were head wounds and the gun used was .22 calibre which would be legal with few restrictions even in the UK and would have necessitated a fairly close range shot. Is he a genuine bad'un like the Bulger murderers or a victim himself in desparation.

[Realist]

Thank you, Falcon Angel, that was well-put!

Twice in my 68 years, a handgun saved my life and/or property, because I was trained to handle and use one with responsibility.

One attack was an attempted car-jacking and the other one was an attempted robbery. Each attack was so violent and unexpected that I'm surprised I survived. However, having a licensed weapon and knowing how to use it prevented disaster. Luckily, I did not have to actually shoot anyone, because the mere sight of a hand gun was sufficient to cause the perp to lose interest and change his priorities.

If I had called the police and waited until they showed up, I would certainly be dead, or at least robbed and possibly hurt. (That's a moot question, anyway...both occurred before cell phones)

I'm reminded of a Florida state legislator who, years ago, was a vehement gun control advocate. His home was invaded and his family was in danger.

Did he call the police and cower in fear, while he hoped they'd get there in time to save him? No, contrary to his emotional gun control tirades in the government halls, heaven forbid, he chose to use a hand gun to defend himself! What was a gun control advocate doing with a hand gun, anyway?

My point being; any responsible, law-abiding citizen has the right to protect himself and his family. We are actually too lenient, in my opinion, with the thugs who wield firearms in the commission of crimes.

I don't want to be on a band wagon for any reason, but there are good arguments for responsible gun use.

I don't know the circumstances behind the child killing those people, but he certainly should not have had access to firearms, especially if he was unstable, and/or had anger management problems. If he took the weapons from the person he killed, that person certainly paid a terrible price for his poor security!

If the kid hadn't gotten a handgun and, if he was violent enough to kill, there's always knives, baseball bats and 2 by 4s. If you really want to do mischief and are bent on it, there's other ways to carry it out.

[FalconAngel]

The issue - "guns" is past aruing.
there will never be any form of gun control in the US.
What it boils down to is responsibility and there seems to be a core mentality amongst many that it should be open slather.

Only in the US

open slaughter, only in the US?

Have you been to the Middle East at all in the past 40 years?

[chook]

open slaughter, only in the US?

Have you been to the Middle East at all in the past 40 years?

I think you'll find that there's a big difference between slather and slaughter falcon.....:)



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[FalconAngel]

I think you'll find that there's a big difference between slather and slaughter falcon.....:)



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

Considering the definition of the word, my original statement still stands. Civilians fire off rounds into the air over there for every reason under the sun......in addition to all of the shooting of and at each other, Europeans and Americans.

Here in the States, not including the backwoods areas, we have laws against that sort of thing and actually enforce them

[texasman6172003]

It isn't the guns so much as the lack of responsibility on the parent for allowing his weapon to be accessible to a child. The child doesn't know better, but the adult does.

The whole reason that we allow guns so freely in the US is because of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, which reads thus;

"Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The idea behind the Militia was to have men ready to come to the defense of their homes and nation in a moment's notice. What we used to call the "Minute Men" became, over time, the National Guard.

But the core idea is also that a well armed population would also be a deterrent to the development of a totalitarian government taking over.

To get the best understanding, you would really need to look at all of the issues that caused the War of Independence and the men that wrote our Constitution.

Dont allways agree with your opinoins FalconAngel,though i agree yur both HOTT.. Butt thank you for posting this,Others sometimes need to be reminded why we have the right to bear arms..Butt to me the most important reason is The Totalitarian reason as stated above. Again Thank you..

[chook]

Considering the definition of the word, my original statement still stands. Civilians fire off rounds into the air over there for every reason under the sun......in addition to all of the shooting of and at each other, Europeans and Americans.

Here in the States, not including the backwoods areas, we have laws against that sort of thing and actually enforce them

I know what you are saying but here in Australia we have some of the most stringent and ridiculous gun laws of anywhere in the world, our previous government disarmed law abiding licenced people from owning certain types of firearms like pump action shotguns and semi automatic weapons but I can still buy a pump action .308, that's just one of the laws. I am a law abiding rifle owning and licenced person with a passion for my sport and as far as the middle east goes if their governments cant control the actions of its citizens I cant see how any one else bring them into line.

But I do strongly believe that American gun laws need a dirty big shake up and I'm sure this can be done without too much damage to the constituion...just my :2cents:

Cheers Chook

[darkeyes]

Dont allways agree with your opinoins FalconAngel,though i agree yur both HOTT.. Butt thank you for posting this,Others sometimes need to be reminded why we have the right to bear arms..Butt to me the most important reason is The Totalitarian reason as stated above. Again Thank you..

Trubble Texie hun, wiv armin the peeps jus in case they mite havta oppose totalitarianism or even jus a govt ya don like 2 much.. is that haff a ya will b on ur side..an haffa ya will b on thers... a rite gud ole recipe for slaughter.. ya jus need 2 read these pages 2 c how polarised opinion is 2 c that... so do not an neva hav accepted that argument...

Used 2 shoot..wos tot by me dad.. stooped afta me shot didn kill a poor lil creature.. its suffrin made me c how shitty guns r... me dad stopped afta Dunblane an its craziness... alms ne thin can b used as a weapon 2 attack an defend.. 2 kill or maim.. jeez..me silk scarves an bras.. an kno its daft 2 ban everythin that can b used as a weapon... but leavin guns in the hands a the genral populace is sheer nuts... every few months the US suffers summat like an worse wot happened 2 16 primary school kids an a teacher at Dunblane.. an absolutely nowt has been learned..cept that guns r dangerous things in the rite hands, neva mind the rong 1's....

[void()]

I carry a pocket knife to work. It is a tool which may be useful to me. Some could use a pocket knife to maim or kill another person.

The computer I use to type this message is a tool also. It can be used to log into a military installation and launch nuclear weapons as well as typing this message.

Let me clarify here. I have no intention of 'bringing the rain' or otherwise accessing military or government sites for maliciousness, or killing, maiming anyone with my pocket knife. I am merely illustrating a point. There are a variety of uses for any tool.

Yes the issue resolves to personal responsibility. Yes it is difficult to pass judgment on who is deem, who is responsible enough or not to use whatever tool for beneficial purposes, much less decide those purposes.

I defer to common sense but that appears to be lax to wane in the face of unyielding stupidity. Yes tools may cause tragedy, on the other side of the coin they may prevent it.

Keep coming back to an expression me and the wife share. "Live right, eat right, exercise right, pray right, work right, do it all right ... die anyway." We have just decided what is right for us is enjoying our time as we 'pass through' as best we can and not worry too much about suiting others definition/s of right.

"You can please some, some of the time but never all, all of the time. So, please yourself and be content in that."

Bah, philosophy and ethic before 10 AM! Damn you all to the hell I don't believe in! <grins and laughs> Sorry if I haven't all the answers, or appear cynical and asinine. That isn't the intent.

"Why do you laugh? This is a life and death matter!" The farmer said to the samurai who were joking and laughing as they traveled into his town to defend it against bandits.

"We laugh because it is always a life and death matter."

[bhg08054]

Sorry to get all righteous but what is it with (not all i know!) americans and guns. Just read a story in my local rag an EIGHT year old boy is in police custody charged with premeditated murder after shooting dead his father and another man. For gods sake why are guns available to buy in wall mart and does "the right to bear arms" not belong to a bygone age

Listen, I am sick and tired of you self righteous SUBJECTS OF THE KING/QUEEN trying to tell us CITIZENS of the United States that we should follow your subjugation into near slave-hood to the state.

Perhaps you have forgotten your history, but we beat your ass TWICE in to get away from that subjugation.

And when the Germans overran Europe TWICE in the 20th century, it was US who bailed your ass out. You weren't so self righteous about our guns when you were collecting them up for your home defense program, since you didn't have any of your own.


AND WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH BISEXUALITY?

[izzfan]

I have very mixed views about the subject of gun control. I mean, we have stupidly strict gun laws in the UK (eg: all handguns banned since 1996/7... even our olympic target shooters have to train abroad although I think they may be allowed to train on MOD property for the 2012 olympics - the only firearms [not counting airguns/BB guns] people can own in the UK are double-barreled shotguns, some pump action/automatic shotguns with a magazine capacity of no more than 3 shells and bolt-action rifles and that's after quite a strict licensing procedure). The thing about gun laws is that only law-abiding people follow them. I mean, look at how many criminals in the UK use handguns.

Then again, saying that... beacuse there isn't an abundance of guns in the UK, we haven't had any school shootings for years (apart from Dunblane), there are less deaths from firearms-related accidents etc....

However, I watched "Bowling for Columbine" a few years ago and I remember that apparently Canada has similar rates of gun ownership to the US but far lower murder rates. So I don't think that guns are wholly to blame. Not sure what is to blame though ? (I remember the film saying something about a higher fear of crime in the US)

As for self-defence. I believe that people should have the right to arm themselves if they feel that they are at risk of muggings, assault etc... but I would argue that they should legalise pepper sprays, tasers etc.. for civilian use in the UK but maybe not concealed carry firearms (or knives for that matter....).

Then again, if someone broke into my house and I had a gun, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I felt like my life was in danger. Maybe they should legalise firearms (inc.handguns) for home defence and target shooting/ hunting but not for concealed carry in public.

It's a complicated issue...

(oh, as for the point about gun ownership preventing totalitarianism. I think I have to agree on that one. )

[FalconAngel]

I know what you are saying but here in Australia we have some of the most stringent and ridiculous gun laws of anywhere in the world, our previous government disarmed law abiding licenced people from owning certain types of firearms like pump action shotguns and semi automatic weapons but I can still buy a pump action .308, that's just one of the laws. I am a law abiding rifle owning and licenced person with a passion for my sport and as far as the middle east goes if their governments cant control the actions of its citizens I cant see how any one else bring them into line.

But I do strongly believe that American gun laws need a dirty big shake up and I'm sure this can be done without too much damage to the constituion...just my :2cents:

Cheers Chook

Australia's big problem is that it has too much British influence in that respect.
Here in the US, there was an effort by the NRA to interconnect the database of felons in such a way as to prevent folks that have felony criminal records and other such restricted status from purchasing guns. The plan was to allow regular citizens to legally own legitimate weapons and to keep them out of the hands of the bad guys.

The problem with the excessive gun control laws is that more than 97% of gun related crimes are committed using guns that were either stolen or obtained on the black market. So all of the gun control laws have only disarmed the public and allowed the bad guys to get armed easier.

As a veteran, I consider gun control to be the ability to responsibly use the weapon, not restricting ownership excessively.

[darkeyes]

Listen, I am sick and tired of you self righteous SUBJECTS OF THE KING/QUEEN trying to tell us CITIZENS of the United States that we should follow your subjugation into near slave-hood to the state.

Perhaps you have forgotten your history, but we beat your ass TWICE in to get away from that subjugation.

And when the Germans overran Europe TWICE in the 20th century, it was US who bailed your ass out. You weren't so self righteous about our guns when you were collecting them up for your home defense program, since you didn't have any of your own.


AND WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH BISEXUALITY?It isn't a case of being self-righteous, and I am sorry if you think it is. It is a simple case of concern for our fellow human beings. We live in very different societies and have very different cultures when it comes to firearms. I can understand why some, even people here wish to have firearms for what they say is self defence, against assailant or state. I just do not accept either premise as a justifiable reason for owning guns. I am a person who wishes no harm to any, yet am aware from personal experience how unpredictable I can be with a rush of blood to the head. It is something I try to keep under control but not always with 100% success.

We are, as human beings, subject to such fits of unpredictability, and these can produce serious, often fatal effects. I know that we cannot entirely eliminate the worst effects of temperament, but we should as far as we can remove from temptation the tools which most seriously endanger others from our unpredictabilities. We must also remove the ability of the criminal fraternity to have access to firearms. I know this is a bit of a case of living in "cloud cuckoo land", but because we are unable to eliminate an evil entirely should not mean we take no steps in an attempt to crush it. Less availability, and certainly less easy availability of firearms is but one such weapon. Many much less dangerous things than firearms are outlawed, yet in the main this is accepted and understood. However if it is ever to happen, like so much in life, changing a gun culture involves a sea change in opinion, with much hard work and education, and a greater social awareness of the destruction and harm guns do.

Weare as societies supposed to be assemblies of human beings meant to be co-operating for the good of all. While my belief, and the belief of others is for much more stringent gun control, it is just one small, yet important thing which we as human beings should be considering. There are much more important things, yet because we as believers in gun control whether we live in the US or not have a strong held view does not make us self-righteous, nor are those who disagree necessarily gung ho shoot 'em up types. They are two valid sides of an argument which will not be resolved quickly. I hold my view because I care.. many on the other side of the argument care equally as me. the world is a very dangerous place.. I happen to believe that large scale ownership of firearms in the general population makes it more dangerous.

So I am uninterested in whether you are sick and tired of me and others trying to tell you what you can and can't do. As it happens I am not. I am trying to be part of a reasonable debate, not as a subject of the Crown, and certainly not as a slave. Arguably, in the UK we have as much freedom as you do. I have opposed the monarchy all my adult life, as do many others. We have that freedom. For all our so called slavishness to monarchy in this country very few are as respectful to the Crown as you lot are to the office of President. Your society was constructed substantially out of rights fought for not by Americans, but by English, Scots, Welsh and Irish people here, not in the Americas, long before your nation won its independence. Many died in that war fighting on your side because of their belief in freedom. Many have died in the name of freedom ever since and no doubt many will die in future. We are anything but slaves, but we are indepently minded stubborn peoples who have fought for, in our own different ways, liberty and freedom every bit as much as the people of the United States.

I will not enter into a debate about World War 2, except to say that essentially the British people saved their own skins in 1940. That the US eventually came to our aid is something the British will never forget and will forever be thankful, and that it was because of American involvement and the sacrifice of thousands of American lives, that the war was finally won as quickly as it was is a fact and there can be no denial of that fact. Regarding 1918 I suggest you read a little more. There can be no doubt of the important role the US played and I do not wish to minimise it, but American involvement did not save the European arse there either, although the large numbers of American troops which flooded onto the lines in late 1918 helped win it.

Finally just a small correction. You did not "whup" the British arse in two wars. Sure you did in the war on independence, but the war of 1812-15 was considered a draw. Throughout the time of that war, Britain had a much more important war to fight against another dicator. Unless you mean the war of the pig. You did sort of win that one.

..and what does it have to do with bisexuality? Well.. bisexuals and gays have been known to die as easily as anyone else by gunshot wounds.. and we are like many other people in society.. free-minded and have the right to speak.

[tatooedpunk]

Thank you fran,
Put much more elequently than i would have

[chook]

Good on ya Fran, its a pity a lot more people didn't study their history a little bit better, and to clear up a little matter of who runs what....here in Australia the queen might be the head of state but she sure as shit hasn't got anything to do with the governing of this country and we don't jump through hoops or do backflips because she is the queen either...most Aussies have had a gutfull of the monarchy and cant wait to become a republic......I hope that's cleared up a few myths.

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[curious44]

FalconAngel, Thanks for carrying the pro-gun banner on this thread. You're doing a fine job. As a firm believer in the strict interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and in full agreement with the recent SCOTUS decision in the Heller case I appreciate it.
"An armed population is made up of citizens, an unarmed population is made up of subjects"
"Never trust a politician who doesn't trust me with my freedom"
"When a criminal commits a crime with a gun,why do the politicians always try to take guns away from everybody that had nothing to do with the crime?
"Those who turn their guns into plowshares will plow for those who didn't"
I swore in my profile to not discuss issues other than sexuality due to the unusually large amount of political opinionating on this site but this is one thread I couldn't ignore.

[Bluebiyou]

A lot more people are killed in usa by automobiles than by guns.
Yet there's no amendment guaranteeing citizen's right to a Saab.
If we wanted to prevent human death, dismemberment, and injury, we should ban automotive traffic.
I, however subscribe to the phrase 'Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms should be a convenience store at the corner, not a department of the government.'
Yet, of course, in bad neighborhoods guns can be widespread bad things.
But to point to one 8 year old out of a population of 300,000,000 killing two people and saying that's a case for gun ban/control.
The kid's father even consulted other adults over the age of teaching a child how to use a gun. 8 is a little young, but not altogether unreasonable. Are there rats/squirels/varmits that are a continuous threat to the family livihood? Then 8 is not altogether too young (a little extreme, 12 is better; a BB gun would usually be better suited for a child of 8). If the kid lived on a ranch, then 8 would be about right and 12 would be a little late. It's clear there was a unique problem with this child. The vast majority of kids that grow up with guns learn safety and respect.
If on the other hand, you live in an urban area, worse a ghetto, then it's easy to issue a blanket statement of guns being evil.

[FalconAngel]

Blue brings up a very important point in the gun control issue.

In urban areas, there is no reason for a child of 8, or even twelve to learn about the use of and have access to firearms. However, in areas where there is game and dangerous predators, it is very reasonable.

Another factor in the issue is parental maturity. If the parent is a runaway gun "nut", then there is a lot of reasons to not allow a child in his/her care to have access to weapons of that nature.

Now, in a case where the parent is a stable individual and has had proper firearms training, the case that made the news would not likely happen.

Fact is that most gun owners are folks, like me, who like to go out to the range and plink, or are the type that go hunting once or twice a year, or are collectors. Those are the types of people that will use appropriate restraint and a higher degree of discretion when considering firearms instruction with a minor. There is also the discipline to safely handle the weapons that comes into play. I certainly wouldn't teach a completely undisciplined "wild child" with any weapons training of any kind.

Now, as we can figure out for ourselves, our founding fathers may have never imagined the firepower and advances in firearms that have occurred over the past 240 years, but the 2nd amendment can still be upheld, even with reasonable gun control measures.

Unfortunately, what some consider reasonable are excessive and what others call reasonable are not strict enough.

The key, as in anything, is an acceptable medium.

[Randypan]

I am all for a certain level of gun control. Who need grenade launchers? Rocket launchers? Hay, they are nothing but bigger guns. And then there are assault rifles. No one but a collector has any use for them and if you are a gun collector I believe there should be a strict application policy in place. But for hand guns, shotguns and most rifles, what is wrong with an application with a background check and a waiting period? The idea here is control, not removal. I am trained in the use of several different firearms, and I am very good at it. But I also know that if you are attacked and you do not have your weapon in your hand it will do you no good. You can have a full arsenal and it will be nothing more than a pile of scrap, so why have it in the first place? Do you seriously think that the government is gonna come and get you? If they were going to do that, you would never see them coming. I am all for the Right to bear arms, but there comes a point where it becomes a bit insane. Yes more people are killed every year by car accidents than guns, but very few of those deaths were intentional. And for the kid who accidental kills someone else with daddy's gun, the media needs to stop attacking the guns and go after the parents who did not control that gun and the media/video games that teach that death is no big thing...just push reset and all is forgiven. Sorry if I seem to straddle the fence here. I have no problems with guns or the people who own them, I just want to see better controls, enforcement of the current controls and stricter penalties for lack of personal responsibility.

[curious44]

Randypan,
We're not talking about grenade launchers or rockets. We are talking about conventional firearms, including full auto machine guns. To the best of my knowledge a legally owned machine gun hasn't been used in a crime in decades and, yes, there are many states in this country where it is legal to own a machine gun. And people do enjoy getting together and firing full auto weapons. Look at the annual shoot at Knob Creek in KY for an example.
You also use the catchy "assault weapons" term, a name made up by anti-gun pols and their media lap dogs. I love to ask people, "what is an assault weapon?" when they talk negatively about them. I've yet to get an intelligent answer. I usually get something like, "guns that can cut down trees" or as the owner of a local diner responded recently when I asked him, "BRRRRRTTTT! as he made the sound of a machine gun. I told him I would like a more intelligent answer. He walked away.
You say you have firearm training so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know the difference between semi and full auto. Why do you say only collectors should be allowed to own them? How does an AR-15 differ from a Ruger Mini 14. Both semi-auto, both .223 cal, both have detachable mags. Yet during the "assault weapons" silliness that was allowed to sunset an AR-15 was an "assault weapon" but a Mini 14 wasn't. A generic Norinco AK 47 was classified as an "assault weapon". Take the action out of the military stock, put it in a "sporterized" stock and you're legal. It's still the same firearm. These are but two examples. It should also be noted that there was no significant changes in the types of weapons used in crime before the ban, during the ban or after the ban sun setted. The only thing that changed was the price of "assault weapons" and high cap mags. Under that ridiculous law an "assault weapon" was defined as any firearm with no more than two of the following features: detachable mag, threaded barrel, bayonet lug,collapsible stock or pistol grip. It's amusing that the SKS is not considered an "assault weapon" even though it's a weapon designed for military use. BTW, the SKS is very popular as a deer hunting rifle in WI.
I'll also add that I have relatives who live in rural areas and their kids are already getting familiar with firearms at a very early age. One of them is 13 and is allowed to hunt on his own on their land. I had the pleasure of giving him a beat up 20 ga two years ago. He refinished the stock and gave it a coat of cold bluing. It looks damn good, considering the work was done by an 8th grader. He got a turkey with it this spring and a doe with it last fall. He's proud of that gun.
Alright, that's enough of this! As Rodney King said, "Can't we all just suck each other's cocks?" or something like that.

[Hephaestion]

"...Knob Creek in KY..." unfortunate assemblage of words.

.

[FalconAngel]

............there are many states in this country where it is legal to own a machine gun.

You can legally own a machine gun in every state of the nation, but there is a very expensive and long process of paperwork and investigation by the BATF, FBI and other federal agencies for getting that license AND it is limited only to those who fall in a very small class of collectors.

Same with historic artillery pieces and breach-loaded replicas of historic artillery. We happen to know one of the short list of artillery operators that may legally handle and fire artillery on national park property.

Most folks do not want to know all of the hoops to have to jump through to get the special licenses for either of those situations.

[fairbankswingers]

Sorry to get all righteous but what is it with (not all i know!) americans and guns. Just read a story in my local rag an EIGHT year old boy is in police custody charged with premeditated murder after shooting dead his father and another man. For gods sake why are guns available to buy in wall mart and does "the right to bear arms" not belong to a bygone age

You live in the UK why not try worring about the problems in the UK not my country...I dont worry myself with your issues, nor do I try and put my values on your nation...besides a gun ban is just want the brits would want as then the 2 wars you all started agaist us here would have went better for your side, but then once again you would most likly be speaking german too... :rolleyes:

"There can be no doubt of the important role the US played and I do not wish to minimise it, but American involvement did not save the European arse there either, although the large numbers of American troops which flooded onto the lines in late 1918 helped win it."
And so once again both WWI and WWII someone forgot where most of the ammo and weapons came from and who was suppling your foks with food and other stuff prior to us providing combat troops...you forget the majority of ammo came from the united states, you forget that we provided ALOT of the food stuffs to feed your people, you forget we provided for the MAJORITY of your defence since the end of WWII so you all could spend less...how many US COmbat troops have been stationed in Europe since 1945 for YOUR defence with very little to no thanks it seems...

Hate to tell you folks over in europe, but us Americans do not like to be told what to do and we do not like queens and kings...Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said "A government who is not afraid of thier subjects will always over step thier authority, a government who is afaid of thier subject will rule smartly" not exact, but close quote...point is you folks have no way to defend agaist the taking over of your country by your government or worse...we can and will defend our rights...you folks just dont get the fact that there are people in this world that will not live like the rest of us and will kill all to make the world readyt for "allah" and such...never mind there are still gun deaths iin the UK - by criminals with weapons that are banned...wow think they really care about your gun laws??? I spent 21 years in the military, am now a police officer...I use my firearms as tools...I have 2 full safes of firearms in my house, my kids all like shooting sports, no issues here...and my kids have never went to school to kill people, those kids noramlly come from homes that have other major issues in them

[chook]

Fuck me stupid!!!!........this forum just goes from the sublime to the ridiculous.


Chook :bigrin:

[boca.openminded]

I totally agree with the statement ""it aint guns that kill people, it's people that kill people"

I grew up with guns in my house all my life and 1) my father kept most of them locked up and 2) he taught me how dangerous guns are and not to be used as toys.

Not knowing the complete story but if a underaged kid gets drunk at home the parents are responsible. Why wouldn't the same be true with this 8 yr old?

It is not that easy to purchase a gun today. There is a waiting period and a backround check. The waiting period is because many people act out of anger but by the time the waiting period is over they forgot what made them so angry in the first place.

When you read / hear about people getting killed most of those guns are purchased illegally. No matter what laws are out there it will not stop the purchase of illegal guns.

I recently went to a gun show and it kind of freaked me out. Their was every type of gun for sale. I do not understand why someone would want to purchase a semi-automatic machine gun. Its not like it will be used for hunting. I know they say its more for show and will only be used (if ever) at a shooting range. It still freaked me out.

There are so many stupid people in this world. These people should not breed, have guns, or drive (because a car can be used as a weapon too). There are also honest / good people out there but we do not hear about them because they are the ones that know the difference between right & wrong.

I do strongly believe that we have the right to bear arms. Maybe a criminal would think twice before entering a house if he (even for a minute) believes they might have a gun.

my 2 cents...

[eddy10]

In a perfect world there would certainly be a need for weapons for defense.

But, hey folks, there are some really bad people out there. We have a right, no an obligation, to protect ourselves, our loved ones and others to weak (or stupid) to defend themselves from those predators.

I will willingly give up my guns when the bad guys all go away. Fat chance of that happening. Therefore, "from my cold dead hands."

[curious44]

I'm pleasantly surprised by all the pro freedom members here.

Hephaestion: I was referring to the Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, Kentucky. Therefore "Knob Creek in KY". Subjects of the Queen can disagree with our beloved Constitution but you will have to do better than that.

Chook: Thank you for sharing your equally intelligent thoughts on the subject.

[fairbankswingers]

I'm pleasantly surprised by all the pro freedom members here.

Hephaestion: I was referring to the Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, Kentucky. Therefore "Knob Creek in KY". Subjects of the Queen can disagree with our beloved Constitution but you will have to do better than that.

Chook: Thank you for sharing your equally intelligent thoughts on the subject.

I might have went off some, however it is becuase I hate people who demand freedom for thier beleifs, but yet want to restrict mine...example is gay marrage (I support it) but yet feel it is in thier right to say we should not do what we want...guns have never killed anyone...people have killed each other since stones were used to do the dirty deed...people will always find a way to kill each other, anger and hate is in our DNA and will alway be there...I want to be able to defend myself and my family...and if you dont agree with them, then by all means dont own them...

[AFTER9]

I happen to be a very close neighbor of an outdoor sportsman org. that has a gun range. I've had no problems at all with the gun range. Doesn't bother me one bit. They let us fish in their pond and have even invited us to dinners and parties they've had. Good neighbors for the most part.
The only thing they've done to bother me was reckless pickup truck driving(almost ran me over on my bicycle) also dogs running loose (dobermans no less).
So I'm firmly in the camp that human behavior not the guns are the problem.
However I think that we need to realize the a wild west type glamorization of guns can be extremely dangerous. Like most things the answer seems to lie somewhere in the middle. I guess if it was up to me the burden would be on the gun owner. No I don't think we should take away your guns BUT you show that you're not up to the hugew responsibility of having one I have no problem with them being taken away.

[GalacticiaActual]

Let's take all the guns away from the law abiding citizens, and let the criminals have their way.

Locks on doors keep the honest people out.

Blanket gun control targets law abiding citizens, not criminals.

If you want something bad enough, anything's possible.

The right to keep and bear arms does not include an inheritable right to murder with said weapon.

Individual thoughts translate into around 6,602,224,175 points of view.
Aren't we all lucky to be able to express them freely here.

DUH.

[void()]

The ever eloquent man from Oz named chook penned --- "Fuck me stupid!!!!"

I have indeed been fucked stupid. It is great medicine to face the daily grind. Love being fucked stupid. :)

[darkeyes]

You live in the UK why not try worring about the problems in the UK not my country...I dont worry myself with your issues, nor do I try and put my values on your nation...besides a gun ban is just want the brits would want as then the 2 wars you all started agaist us here would have went better for your side, but then once again you would most likly be speaking german too... :rolleyes:

"There can be no doubt of the important role the US played and I do not wish to minimise it, but American involvement did not save the European arse there either, although the large numbers of American troops which flooded onto the lines in late 1918 helped win it."
And so once again both WWI and WWII someone forgot where most of the ammo and weapons came from and who was suppling your foks with food and other stuff prior to us providing combat troops...you forget the majority of ammo came from the united states, you forget that we provided ALOT of the food stuffs to feed your people, you forget we provided for the MAJORITY of your defence since the end of WWII so you all could spend less...how many US COmbat troops have been stationed in Europe since 1945 for YOUR defence with very little to no thanks it seems...

Hate to tell you folks over in europe, but us Americans do not like to be told what to do and we do not like queens and kings...Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said "A government who is not afraid of thier subjects will always over step thier authority, a government who is afaid of thier subject will rule smartly" not exact, but close quote...point is you folks have no way to defend agaist the taking over of your country by your government or worse...we can and will defend our rights...you folks just dont get the fact that there are people in this world that will not live like the rest of us and will kill all to make the world readyt for "allah" and such...never mind there are still gun deaths iin the UK - by criminals with weapons that are banned...wow think they really care about your gun laws??? I spent 21 years in the military, am now a police officer...I use my firearms as tools...I have 2 full safes of firearms in my house, my kids all like shooting sports, no issues here...and my kids have never went to school to kill people, those kids noramlly come from homes that have other major issues in them

What it must feel like to be the saviours of the world and yet so insecure... to tolerate and understand so much... be so sure of omnipotence.. and yet know so little..

[darkeyes]

The ever eloquent man from Oz named chook penned --- "Fuck me stupid!!!!"

I have indeed been fucked stupid. It is great medicine to face the daily grind. Love being fucked stupid. :)
Ta Voidie for the lil lite relief... muah..:tong:

[izzfan]

Fairbankswingers, I don;t think it's a particulalry bad thing for us UK people to discuss this topic. I mean, guns and gun control is an issue that affects most countries - if you read my previous post then you will know that I am actually in support of a relaxation of the UK's incredibly strict gun and self-defence laws.

As for the whole WW1+2 thing, no-one is criticising the American troops who helped us and we are thankful for it. However, this discussion is about about gun ownership for civilian rather than for military use.

Of course there are criminals in the UK who use guns, just like there are criminals in America and virtually every other country who use guns. I mean, in the UK, even the police aren't routinely armed (we do have a specialist section of armed police though but it is a small percentage of the UK police force) because (amongst other things) gun crime isn't as much of an issue over here as it is in the US. However, the use of guns by criminals in the UK is a lot less frequent than it is in the US mainly because there are just less guns in circulation in this country for criminals to steal (eg: they have to smuggle them in from abroad or convert blank-firing guns).

As I said in my previous post, I believe that people should be allowed to own handguns, rifles etc.. for home defence, target shooting and hunting but not for concealed carry in public. However, I do think that they should legalise pepper sprays, tasers etc... for concealed carry in the UK (provided that there are appropriate background checks, as with firearms) for self-defence. However, if we had US gun laws in the UK I personally wouldn't own a gun as it would probably scare the hell out of me. Despite this, I still find guns interesting on a technical level but the only time I have ever fired a gun was when I went clay-pidgeon shooting a couple of years ago.

As for the whole issue of an armed population preventing tyranny, I have to agree on that point. The UK government had introduced so much unnecessary, authoritarian and just downright scary legislation in the past decade.

[Ninnian]

I grew up in a home with guns- no they were never locked. They Were in a cabinet,and my Dad did show us gun safety when we were very young, including what would happen to a watermelon ("About as hard as your head, wouldnt you say,kids?") at close range as well as farther ranges. We had a healthy respect and never-ever touched them . My father , mother and brother hunted for food. We never hunted for trophies.

But what I have to think , besides some of teh other wonderful points ? Im a Black belted martial artist. I have been taught self defense which includes teh ability to kill . Would I?.. Yes. Would I try every avenue I could to NOT do so ? Definetly. Would some of you have my hands, feet, elbows and knees amputated becuase I have that ability? eeeek.. mabye I shouldnt ask! :eek:
The thing is- Learning to Use any art (even guncraft) comes with responsibility. I could maim with a carrot...... whose up for outlawing vegitation, step on up! ;) Besides.. why waste perfectly good caritinoids? mmmmm!

Nin

[fairbankswingers]

What it must feel like to be the saviours of the world and yet so insecure... to tolerate and understand so much... be so sure of omnipotence.. and yet know so little..

No, we just did not get distroyed when you ran place as in India...they went to the peace way with you all and look how they got bent over...we took the gun route with you all and look how we turned out...the problem is you all have very little freedoms and as such you just dont know how to speak your mind without fear of big brother coming after you...how does it feel to be walking downtown and holding your lovers hand talking privately - well not really becuase a government agent can listen in on everything...enjoy your "freedom" and so called "crime free becuase we got rid of guns" life you all have...

[fairbankswingers]

As for the whole issue of an armed population preventing tyranny, I have to agree on that point. The UK government had introduced so much unnecessary, authoritarian and just downright scary legislation in the past decade.

This is our main point when we say we want the freedom to own guns...we took this route becuase of UK rule turning on us...my comment on India is becuase how bad it turned out for them...I love the UK and have served in Afganistan with UK troops and have never hated anyone, however, I hate it when the world belives they must single out the United States and our ways, and say how bad we are, but yet we provide more in military support as well as humanitarian support to the world then any other country, and at times more then all other countries combined...it is like everyone wants to point fingers at us on how bad we are, but yet forget everything good we have done since the war of 1812...

[_Joe_]

We have nothing on the gun usage with kids in Somolia though...those kids scare me.

[Randypan]

Randypan,
I'll also add that I have relatives who live in rural areas and their kids are already getting familiar with firearms at a very early age. One of them is 13 and is allowed to hunt on his own on their land. I had the pleasure of giving him a beat up 20 ga two years ago. He refinished the stock and gave it a coat of cold bluing. It looks damn good, considering the work was done by an 8th grader. He got a turkey with it this spring and a doe with it last fall. He's proud of that gun.
Alright, that's enough of this! As Rodney King said, "Can't we all just suck each other's cocks?" or something like that.

When I say "assault" I do mean fully automatic.

And as to giving guns to kids in rural areas, I have no problem with that at all since their parents usually talke full responsibility for training them and keeping them safe.

[Bluebiyou]

An attempt at comparative science.
If all of Europe had 'right to bare arms' prior to WWII.
The death camps with Jews, Jehovah's Witness, and gays would have been... more difficult to fill with armed populace. Jews would have been armed to the teeth and willing to use. Jehovah's Witness... would still have died due to morals against killing. Gays would have put up a good fight. Political opponents would have been gathered more by surprise and thus less armed.
German military progress would have been less fast/more limited. 'La Resistance' would have been much better armed, making NAZI occupation of other countries as expensive as current occupation of Iraq... thus much less available military to use for conquest... not even to mention the much more likely assassination of Hitler by a German.
Let's say a net saving of 6 million lives...
Now 100 years of 'right to bear arms' cassualties of murder and accident in Europe... 2000 deaths per year average? 2000 deaths per year x 100 years = 200,000 deaths vs. 6 million just from WWII.
even if Europeans are just a bunch of murderous Vikings and the deaths per year were 20,000 per year... it would still take 300 years of American style gunslinging to equal the carnage that would have been saved 1938 - 1945.
The numbers support widespread gun ownership in Europe.
More dangerous on a day-to-day basis but much much much less on the periodic European wars.

[darkeyes]

An attempt at comparative science.
If all of Europe had 'right to bare arms' prior to WWII.
The death camps with Jews, Jehovah's Witness, and gays would have been... more difficult to fill with armed populace. Jews would have been armed to the teeth and willing to use. Jehovah's Witness... would still have died due to morals against killing. Gays would have put up a good fight. Political opponents would have been gathered more by surprise and thus less armed.
German military progress would have been less fast/more limited. 'La Resistance' would have been much better armed, making NAZI occupation of other countries as expensive as current occupation of Iraq... thus much less available military to use for conquest... not even to mention the much more likely assassination of Hitler by a German.
Let's say a net saving of 6 million lives...
Now 100 years of 'right to bear arms' cassualties of murder and accident in Europe... 2000 deaths per year average? 2000 deaths per year x 100 years = 200,000 deaths vs. 6 million just from WWII.
even if Europeans are just a bunch of murderous Vikings and the deaths per year were 20,000 per year... it would still take 300 years of American style gunslinging to equal the carnage that would have been saved 1938 - 1945.
The numbers support widespread gun ownership in Europe.
More dangerous on a day-to-day basis but much much much less on the periodic European wars.Bare arms hun Blue?? *laffs* Bout as accurate an perceptive as the resta the bollox ya droned on bout ther... *laffs gain*:tong:

[izzfan]

Fairbankswingers, I think you have a good point about the US getting a bad press internationally. I've never actually been to America so I guess I can't really compare the reality to what we hear about in the press. I suppose it is the same with any country, the negative stories tend to sell more papers than the positive ones.

I suppose the other thing about how many people from outside the US view America is to do with politics. I mean, George Bush was probably one of the worst world leaders in recent years and a lot of people probably have a negative view of the US because of Bush. When Obama becomes president it will do a lot of good for America's reputation internationally (provided he can live up to the high expectations many people have about him).

As for the whole guns in America thing, I mean there are some idiots who misuse guns and there are people who use them to commit crime but they are the ones the world tends to hear about in the press rather than the millions of Americans who are law-abiding and responsible gun owners.

[ihavapa]

So many replies so many ideas, yes each and everyone of you are correct, at least in your own way of thinking, this is what has made the USA what it is and will be, we all have our own right to our own opinion, I am a gun rights believer, guns are tools nothing more nothing less, in the hands of the right person they can be a wonderful recreational and sporting tool, but in the hands of the wrong person deadly and very dangerous. Just as an automobile , a train, or as we all know too well in this country an airliner, but I see no one trying to restrict their usage. Just remember Ted Kennedy's cars have killed more people than any gun I own. Education and understanding on both sides is what is needed not fanaticism, look at the middle east the Jewish State and all the Arab states and the hatred there it is mostly religious fanaticism. Over doing anything is a bad thing, eating , drinking, drug use, and damn it sex too. Maybe cooler heads will prevail.:2cents:

[Annika L]

No, we just did not get distroyed when you ran place as in India...they went to the peace way with you all and look how they got bent over...we took the gun route with you all and look how we turned out...the problem is you all have very little freedoms and as such you just dont know how to speak your mind without fear of big brother coming after you...how does it feel to be walking downtown and holding your lovers hand talking privately - well not really becuase a government agent can listen in on everything...enjoy your "freedom" and so called "crime free becuase we got rid of guns" life you all have...

Am I missing an important piece of history, or didn't India gain its own sovereignty without a bloody war for independence (i.e., without use of guns)?

Am I missing an important bit of reality, or don't we live in the country where warrantless wiretaps were approved by an elected president?

Am I missing an important point of grammar, or didn't the OP ask a question, rather than tell us what to do?

"And look how we turned out"? Arrogant, self-righteous, defensive, ignorant of history and grammar, and increasingly bankrupt both ethically and financially? If our stance on guns is responsible for how we turned out, that makes a pretty good argument for gun control.

[darkeyes]

No, we just did not get distroyed when you ran place as in India...they went to the peace way with you all and look how they got bent over...we took the gun route with you all and look how we turned out...the problem is you all have very little freedoms and as such you just dont know how to speak your mind without fear of big brother coming after you...how does it feel to be walking downtown and holding your lovers hand talking privately - well not really becuase a government agent can listen in on everything...enjoy your "freedom" and so called "crime free becuase we got rid of guns" life you all have...Lukky me didn notice this las nite hun..orya wudda got the methaphorical head rippin off... if u think me an othas like me hav no freedoms try an liv ere.. thinkya will soon find we r as free as u 2 say, b an do much as we like.. Annika is rite...ya knos nowt an r both ignorant an arrogant...ur country..or mine..aint the only places in the world werya hav those freedoms.. ther r lotsa them.. an lotsa them don even hav English as a 1st language... an lotsa them don need or wont guns 2 lead happy decent an free lives.. an lemme ask this ofya..r ya that free ya liv in a country wer ya can get hitched 2 that luffer ya mention..if that luffer is of the same sex?? We can..an lotsa otha non american non gun luffin peeps... so grow up an stop talkin clap trap..

[tatooedpunk]

You live in the UK why not try worring about the problems in the UK not my country...I dont worry myself with your issues, nor do I try and put my values on your nation...besides a gun ban is just want the brits would want as then the 2 wars you all started agaist us here would have went better for your side, but then once again you would most likly be speaking german too... :rolleyes:

"There can be no doubt of the important role the US played and I do not wish to minimise it, but American involvement did not save the European arse there either, although the large numbers of American troops which flooded onto the lines in late 1918 helped win it."
And so once again both WWI and WWII someone forgot where most of the ammo and weapons came from and who was suppling your foks with food and other stuff prior to us providing combat troops...you forget the majority of ammo came from the united states, you forget that we provided ALOT of the food stuffs to feed your people, you forget we provided for the MAJORITY of your defence since the end of WWII so you all could spend less...how many US COmbat troops have been stationed in Europe since 1945 for YOUR defence with very little to no thanks it seems...

Hate to tell you folks over in europe, but us Americans do not like to be told what to do and we do not like queens and kings...Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said "A government who is not afraid of thier subjects will always over step thier authority, a government who is afaid of thier subject will rule smartly" not exact, but close quote...point is you folks have no way to defend agaist the taking over of your country by your government or worse...we can and will defend our rights...you folks just dont get the fact that there are people in this world that will not live like the rest of us and will kill all to make the world readyt for "allah" and such...never mind there are still gun deaths iin the UK - by criminals with weapons that are banned...wow think they really care about your gun laws??? I spent 21 years in the military, am now a police officer...I use my firearms as tools...I have 2 full safes of firearms in my house, my kids all like shooting sports, no issues here...and my kids have never went to school to kill people, those kids noramlly come from homes that have other major issues in them

OH MY GOD!

My point origionally was about the availabilty and irresponsible use of guns and how an Eight year old got their hands on and used a fiearm.
You on the other hand seem to have an all out war with anyone who wants to take,by your own admission,your many weapons from you.
Gun crime in the UK is miniscule compared to the US (granted we have a fifth of your population.
Oh yeah and dragging us into Iraq was in our defence!

[chulainn2]

Sorry to get all righteous but what is it with (not all i know!) americans and guns. Just read a story in my local rag an EIGHT year old boy is in police custody charged with premeditated murder after shooting dead his father and another man. For gods sake why are guns available to buy in wall mart and does "the right to bear arms" not belong to a bygone age

I prefer not to be a sheep and there are background checks on anyone buying a NEW gun in the USA, be it wherever, your smack at Walmart is irrelevant.
Not that I have shopped there but it does not matter where the gun was purchased.

Punk, unlike the totally safe and secure UK, in the US, when seconds count the police are always minutes away. I'll keep my guns thank you very much.
Oh and btw, i have many guns over many years and i have never shot a person, go figure.

[LadyOfTheLake]

Sorry to get all righteous but what is it with (not all i know!) americans and guns. Just read a story in my local rag an EIGHT year old boy is in police custody charged with premeditated murder after shooting dead his father and another man. For gods sake why are guns available to buy in wall mart and does "the right to bear arms" not belong to a bygone age

I suppose that I am more afraid of people with automobiles than I am of people with guns. Thus far, no one has ever tried to kill me with a gun, but nearly everyday, I get the distinct impression that people in automobiles are very definitely trying to kill me.

[Sourdough]

I carry a gun everyday, it is a part of me, and no one knows I have it till it is needed. I carry concealed, and I live in a state that has a "Right to carry" law. Most people living here carry, it's a way of life. The only time I am with out my gun is when I am flying or going into a bank where we are not supposed to take it. My gun has saved my life and the lives of others many times. I have shot and killed two Grizzly Bears, five Black Bears, numerous rabid foxes, and several snakes. I also have shot two robbers in grocery stores where I was shopping. One of them was holding a gun on my little brother when I shot him. I have also shot one home invader that broke into my house. My tiny wife has also shot a home invader, hers survived.

A gun is nothing more than a tool. A gun is not dangerous, it's the person behind it that is to be feared. It is a great equalizer for the weak. An armed society is a polite society.

Now that said, the second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms to protect ourselves. From people as well as the government.

[izzfan]

Sourdough, you have a good point about a gun being an "equilizer for the weak" but I have to disagree with your comment that an "armed society is a polite society", politeness should not require everyone to fear each other.

Glad to hear that your gun has saved your life though. In the UK we have pretty crap self-defence laws that seem to favour criminals. As for home defence in the UK, there was a well-known court case a few years back where a farmer (Tony Martin?) was jailed for shooting an intruder (however, that may be to do with the fact that he shot the unarmed intruder in the back with an unlicensed shotgun). I don't think I would agree with all of the American self-defence laws but I do believe that you should be allowed to use lethal force if you feel your life/the lives of others are at risk.

Also I can see how a lot of guns would be useful in a rural area (eg: Alaska) but I think in cities etc.. less guns are necessary.

[Bluebiyou]

Sourdough, you have a good point about a gun being an "equilizer for the weak" but I have to disagree with your comment that an "armed society is a polite society", politeness should not require everyone to fear each other.

Glad to hear that your gun has saved your life though. In the UK we have pretty crap self-defence laws that seem to favour criminals. As for home defence in the UK, there was a well-known court case a few years back where a farmer (Tony Martin?) was jailed for shooting an intruder (however, that may be to do with the fact that he shot the unarmed intruder in the back with an unlicensed shotgun). I don't think I would agree with all of the American self-defence laws but I do believe that you should be allowed to use lethal force if you feel your life/the lives of others are at risk.

Also I can see how a lot of guns would be useful in a rural area (eg: Alaska) but I think in cities etc.. less guns are necessary.

Yeah, it is a difference of opinion. The opinion is very strong here in usa. Truthfully, the majority of gun crime I know of is (and I know I'm going to get hell for this), black on black (mostly gang or drug related) followed by domestic dispute (black or white).
I feel sorry for the Japanese guy a few years ago who entered the wrong house for a party in Texas. A calm and submissive demeanor might have helped him, but once you walk into someone's house in the usa... especially Texas... you'd better know them; or cow/retreat immediately if a threat is perceived by owner. It's just our culture.

[Hephaestion]

I'm pleasantly surprised by all the pro freedom members here.

Hephaestion: I was referring to the Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, Kentucky. Therefore "Knob Creek in KY". Subjects of the Queen can disagree with our beloved Constitution but you will have to do better than that.

Chook: Thank you for sharing your equally intelligent thoughts on the subject.

Oh Dear - divided by a common language
Knob = penis
Creek usually flow in curved recesses
KY - commmon water based lube
It was a patheic joke Currious44 in a bisexual communications area not a slur on US gun culture - sorry 'US Constitution'.

On a serious point. Everyone here seems to have focussed on the gun and the right to its ownership. I still want to know why this particular child shot and killed two people. I think that I know roughly how.

The Bulger murder that I refered to earlier on was of two lads ca 11 yrs old who lured away, tortured, and murdered a 3 yr old. There was another young murderer called Mary Bell I think ca 10 yrs old invovled in something similar. All 3 of these people have since been deemed fit to re-enter society under heavily disguised identities. This was something which divided opinion here in the UK. I wonder what the analysis and outcome will be of the 8 year old in this saga.

[fairbankswingers]

OH MY GOD!

Oh yeah and dragging us into Iraq was in our defence!

Oh, ok...we see...we ask for your help in a war and you all want to run...or at least your type, beucase I met alot of fine UK men and women who fought next to me to kill those who want to behead anyone who does not think or pray like them..you all think hitler hated gays...think about the muslim extremist...and to add we never ran from your country's request for help in wars of the 20th centry, but yet you all seem to want to run when we get attacked...as for the comment about BHO being the one who will help us - ya, whatever, wait until 2012 when he is being run out for ruining the country and attempting to take freedoms away...another reason to remain armed is to ensurte our leaders dont get stupid and attempt to run over our rights...see, that is the major differance in us...we stand up when we are wronged..

[Bluebiyou]

Oh Dear - divided by a common language
Knob = penis
Creek usually flow in curved recesses
KY - commmon water based lube
It was a patheic joke Currious44 in a bisexual communications area not a slur on US gun culture - sorry 'US Constitution'.

On a serious point. Everyone here seems to have focussed on the gun and the right to its ownership. I still want to know why this particular child shot and killed two people. I think that I know roughly how.

The Bulger murder that I refered to earlier on was of two lads ca 11 yrs old who lured away, tortured, and murdered a 3 yr old. There was another young murderer called Mary Bell I think ca 10 yrs old invovled in something similar. All 3 of these people have since been deemed fit to re-enter society under heavily disguised identities. This was something which divided opinion here in the UK. I wonder what the analysis and outcome will be of the 8 year old in this saga.
There will always be abuse of power. Even in sociopathic young. Granted, sociopaths (including children sociopaths) with guns are more dangerous than sociopaths without guns. It is the quiet power/collective strength of normal folk with guns that is the virtue of mass gun ownership.
There are many examples of sociopaths with guns. This is not surprising, but is often used by media for shock effect... shock effect increases viewership/readership and thus media profitability. The media has to earn a living like the rest of us, right? The End.
Serious question.... if the masses of Russia during Stalin/Lenin rise/reign had weapons... every household, would the net socialist murder rate have been 60 million? How about socialist China? How about facist Italy or Germany?
Compare that with the accidental and intentional death rate of widespread gun ownership.
In spite of Fran's 'bollocks' remark earlier, the numbers of the last 200... hell, 300, g** damn... choose your number greater than 60... years, conclusively demand common gun ownership (greater than 1/2 the population).
Europe is simply waiting for the next war... whoever the hell it starts with and is between. Millions upon millions will die... and it would be millions less if everyone was armed and trained.
BUT, the day-to-day perception would be...
OH MY GOD!!!!! Some 8 year old killed two adults in USA! on some day of some month of some year...
I say, "Kill the little bastard!"
He's a sociopath. He shot one adult, and rather than being horrified, and dropping his weapon, he skillfully killed another. Shoot him. Feed him to the chickens, coyotes... ants, whatever. He's one of the lost. If he grew up, he'd simply kill/harm others. Sociopaths do this kind of thing. It's fun for them. It's hard for the rest of us to relate to. Someone who... sees a conscience as some 'limitation' most folks 'choose'.
Sociopaths in power... Khadafy... Hussein... (W) Bush... Clinton... Stalin... Hitler... Mao... and perhaps Peron and Francisco Franco; certainly many others refined and unrefined. These folks will climb to power regardless of cost to human life. A lie and the truth are nonsensical differentiations. Human life has only value as an asset.
THIS IS WHY WE MUST GLOBALLY ADOPT THE 'RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS'.
There will be skirmishes between individuals and peoples... this 'right' will come at a cost... a continuous cost... "Oh, did you hear the latest? Some child or adult killed 1-15, 30 adults or other children!!! Isn't that shocking and newsworthy? Let's focus on their pain and take steps so this will never happen again".
But somehow Mao's purges never come into this gun hating equation.
Somehow Lenin and Stalin's genocide to, and sustainment of, power never come into this gun hating equation.
Somehow Hitler's genocide to power never comes into this gun hating equation.
Somehow we focus on 1 - 20 individual deaths (and they are tragic, no questioning that) and ignore the more than 100 million deaths in the past 100 years alone... for a short term gain. We are truly... vastly... a very short sighted and stupid species.

[darkeyes]

Oh, ok...we see...we ask for your help in a war and you all want to run...or at least your type, beucase I met alot of fine UK men and women who fought next to me to kill those who want to behead anyone who does not think or pray like them..you all think hitler hated gays...think about the muslim extremist...and to add we never ran from your country's request for help in wars of the 20th centry, but yet you all seem to want to run when we get attacked...as for the comment about BHO being the one who will help us - ya, whatever, wait until 2012 when he is being run out for ruining the country and attempting to take freedoms away...another reason to remain armed is to ensurte our leaders dont get stupid and attempt to run over our rights...see, that is the major differance in us...we stand up when we are wronged..
Pompous ass..

[Bluebiyou]

....BUT I can also see why British folks disagree. Our American 'founding fathers' were wary of how influencable and wishy washy 'the masses' or 'public opinion' could be so that's why the electoral college was created... So more educated and trained minds could override the easily swayable populace.
And so Europeans should deny guns from the easily swayable populace and trust in the governments.
...after all, it's worked so well for the past 1000 years... especially since the begining of the Napolean efforts.

[Hephaestion]

Bit OTT Blue. All I did was ask a question.

Asking questions and getting testable answers is how mankind has progressed to understand the world and so acquire the ability to make informed decisions. When we ask questions of each other and explore points of view, we tend to call that democratic debate. But for democratic debate to work, you have to heed the content of the other person's argumnt and not break into uppercase double emboldened guns blazing rants.

The world looks to the USA for moral leadership and correct practice. Dwelling on true history and outcomes is unwise as there are no clear cut issues in such an arena. History is a continuum and we are all shades of grey in this.

Back to the issue that started this. I and many other sensible people care why a child who should be enjoying life reacts by killing. The method of killing is almost irrelevant apart from the leverage / ability that a gun bestows upon a person. Was it desparation or malevolence? Even if the little s**t turns out to be evil personified, we need to understand that to be the case and learn from it.

There was a relatively recent film called 'crash' portraying in a didactic way the soup of life in the USA.

Warm regards
Heph

[darkeyes]

....BUT I can also see why British folks disagree. Our American 'founding fathers' were wary of how influencable and wishy washy 'the masses' or 'public opinion' could be so that's why the electoral college was created... So more educated and trained minds could override the easily swayable populace.
And so Europeans should deny guns from the easily swayable populace and trust in the governments.
...after all, it's worked so well for the past 1000 years... especially since the begining of the Napolean efforts.Has worked kinda Blue..no moren that... better at sumtimes than othas.. sumtimes not at all.. but in this day an age... trust govts?? Not on ur Nelly... ther r otha ways 2 skin a cat than guns.. an alla u lot so worried bout the blade practice lotsa folk ere seem 2 b gettin..a knife eitha..

[darkeyes]

Back to the issue that started this. I and many other sensible people care why a child who should be enjoying life reacts by killing. The method of killing is almost irrelevant apart from the leverage / ability that a gun bestows upon a person. Was it desparation or malevolence? Even if the little s**t turns out to be evil personified, we need to understand that to be the case and learn from it.


Warm regards
HephJus 1 teensy weensy argument for not havin capital punishment.. o dear..has me opened notha can a worms??? Silly me..:bigrin:

[Bluebiyou]

Ah, you'd have to do a comprehensive study of the 8 year old. I certainly knew evil 8 year olds when I was that age, although I lean towards the belief that sociopaths are nearly always made, not born.
But I think shooting one man in the head, then shooting the other, pretty clearly sums it up. Any normal kid with a conscience would have dropped the gun after hitting the first man.
It's valid that there's a possiblility both these men have abused this kid and he thought he had no other way out.
And the whole 'American gun idea prevents wars' loses some steam and credibility when one considers the war between the Confederacy and the United States (1860 - 1865). But clearly, many Americans still believe strongly in the idea. :)

[curious44]

This discussion illustrates how passionate people are on the firearms issue. This thread started 11-8. It's been going on for almost a week, getting several comments every day. I wonder how many threads stay as active as this one for similar time periods. It seems to me that about 3 days or so is about it for a thread to stay this active. Others may go for a few days, then may lie dormant for a while and then get a few more comments.
I'm pleased that most of the posts expressed a pro freedom viewpoint, especially the ones from U.S. citizens. It's especially pleasing when considering that firearms are hardly the main reason people visit this site.
Fire WORKS in the bedroom maybe, but not fire ARMS. :)

[frenchvikki]

This discussion illustrates how passionate people are on the firearms issue. This thread started 11-8. It's been going on for almost a week, getting several comments every day. I wonder how many threads stay as active as this one for similar time periods. It seems to me that about 3 days or so is about it for a thread to stay this active. Others may go for a few days, then may lie dormant for a while and then get a few more comments.
I'm pleased that most of the posts expressed a pro freedom viewpoint, especially the ones from U.S. citizens. It's especially pleasing when considering that firearms are hardly the main reason people visit this site.
Fire WORKS in the bedroom maybe, but not fire ARMS. :)I think it depends on where you live and the culture with within which you are raised. We do not have an overtly pro gun culture and I am glad of that. Most of those who post on this site are American therefore it is natural that American values are expressed as they are to some extent overpowering those views and opinions of people from other countries. What is a little disheartening is the lack of understanding for the opinions those from other countries which many Americans appear to have.

To a great degree it appears that this site, and American opinions reflects the way America as a nation looks upon and treats the world. With some disdain and often not a little contempt. In my country we have a saying 'Here's tae us, Wha's like us, damn few, They're a' deid'. Sometimes it is used as a toast by men just as a toast like 'Cheers!' but sometimes by those who actually who believe us to be just a little bit better than anyone else. There is a flavour of that that in so much of what many Americans on this site write. It is as if those of us from other lands have values and opinions which are somehow lesser meaning nothing, and that our way of life and values are inferior because American values are the only ones which matter.

Geroge W Bush was, and is fond of talking about freedom. Freedom on America's terms, or at least of his vision of what is American values. It both demeaned the United States and devalued the very word he espoused. Ordinary Americans often use the word in exactly the same way as Bush and to the same effect on this site as well as elsewhere. What is freedom to one, is not necessarily freedom to a neighbour. Because of Bush and the way the word 'freedom' has been so loosely bandied about, many of us from other countries cringe when hearing it spoken with an American accent. Because of what we see as often heavy handed and unsavoury actions by the US the meaning of the word is devalued, and so many other people around the world simply do not believe that America any longer stands for the kind of freedom it once did.

On the issue of guns and gun control, with freedom goes discipline and responsibility. Most people who own guns are disciplined and responsible in their use, but too many are not, but while I would argue for greater control it is up to those who live in each country what they decide to do.

There are strong feelings on both sides of the argument, but the many in the 'freedom' lobby in America are much too full of certainty and contempt for any who demur from their opinions. This debate reflects much of what is the prevailing American sentiment and contempt for non American values. It brings out much that is most base in American certainty.

It is unsurprising then, that so many of us from other countries are suspicious of the United States, and to some extent react with contempt of our own.

We should always exchange opinions across borders for that should increase understanding and hopefully reduce suspicion between cultures. In that exchange we should accept that people in different countries are different from one another with different traditions, cultures and values. Such exchanges should take account of that, and we should always debate issues such as guns and gun control with respect.

[chulainn2]

Frenchvikki, you can be 'suspicious' of the US all you wish. But is it not ironic that when a global tragedy happens i.e. some island in the Indian Ocean gets hit with a tidal wave, the rest of the world turns to the US and our people's hard earned money to pay the lion share, and mostly to countries that would rather spit on us than say hello.
Im tired of our money and my country being pissed on and then expected to be the blank check providers.

[_Joe_]

You know...

this is where Drew needs to hurry up and make more than one forum for all this.

One normal bi talk forum, one political forum, one hahafunny forum. you know.

[frenchvikki]

Frenchvikki, you can be 'suspicious' of the US all you wish. But is it not ironic that when a global tragedy happens i.e. some island in the Indian Ocean gets hit with a tidal wave, the rest of the world turns to the US and our people's hard earned money to pay the lion share, and mostly to countries that would rather spit on us than say hello.
Im tired of our money and my country being pissed on and then expected to be the blank check providers.Chulainn 2, Have you ever thought, whether it is by perception or design something is wrong, and that their may be reasons why people harbour suspicion of the US? Much is only perception I agree, but not all by any stretch of the imagination.

When disasters strike, the US is often quickest off the mark and provides the largest share of assistance. Not always by any means. Many countries provide what assistance they can afford, but always from resources much less than the USA has. It is their taxpayers who pay usually from much more slender paypackets and much higher tax rates and much more frugal economic resources.

Do not forget either that when natural disasters strike in the US many countries rush to your aid and provide assistance for your people. It is not a one way street by any means, although by the very nature of disaster, your country will certainly provide more aid than it ever receives over the course of time. Sometimes countries who are not friendly to the US do this.

It is true that the US is not as popular as it would like to be. This is not all down to the greed or hatred other nations have for the US. It is down to the actions of the US governments over the course of time. There is an element of envy also by other countries - envy of wealth, influence, power and success. Even a dislike of unfettered free enterprise. However these cannot entirely answer why so much of the world dislikes or is suspicious of the US. Some of your greatest friends have gnashed their teeth at repeated refusals of American governments to fully involve itself with proper dialogue on many issues. It is not only those who would be your enemies who are concerned about the way the US conducts itself internationally.

I understand people like yourself getting upset about others taking large sums out of your nations wealth and then turning round with apparent ingratitude and as you say, spitting in your face. There are those here who feel exactly the same way about what our country does in the way of foreign aid and disaster relief. Some of it is because people do not believe we should do anything except for our own and that is a disgraceful attitude. Our world is too small and our problems too great to ignore our neighbours when they are in trouble.

We should not provide relief and aid and demand thanks. Nations should provide it as good neighbours and for no other reason. If the only reason we provide such aid and relief is to win a popularity contest then I for one would not be able to show my face for the shame it brought upon my country.

My original point remains valid. That many of the views expressed on this site by Americans reflect the worst of America as expounded by Bush. Many have expressed nothing but contempt for other countries and their values whoever they are and believe that they are in some way inferior. Not all think this, and the election victory by Obama and the democrats I hope will serve to show the world that most Americans do not believe that. I believe that the victory alone shows that most Americans do not believe that. However it will take some while into an Obama Presidency to show that America has truly changed its spots. It will not be an easy thing for him to do, and it will not be easy for those who harbour suspicion of America to lose that suspicion easily either. We must just hope that between them, it can be done.

[DiamondDog]

You know...

this is where Drew needs to hurry up and make more than one forum for all this.

One normal bi talk forum, one political forum, one hahafunny forum. you know.

yeah people have suggested that in the past but it has yet to happen.

[curious44]

Frenchvikki, you can be 'suspicious' of the US all you wish. But is it not ironic that when a global tragedy happens i.e. some island in the Indian Ocean gets hit with a tidal wave, the rest of the world turns to the US and our people's hard earned money to pay the lion share, and mostly to countries that would rather spit on us than say hello.
Im tired of our money and my country being pissed on and then expected to be the blank check providers.

chulainn2,
You got it right. I always say, "No 'victim' status for me. As a healthy, gainfully employed, white male all I ever get is the bill for this stuff."

[darkeyes]

Fire WORKS in the bedroom maybe, but not fire ARMS. :)

Dunno bout u hun..but me arms serve as a very useful aid 2 get the fire goin in the bedroom...:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

chulainn2,
You got it right. I always say, "No 'victim' status for me. As a healthy, gainfully employed, white male all I ever get is the bill for this stuff."

Ther a reason 2 include the "white" bit???

[darkeyes]

You know...

this is where Drew needs to hurry up and make more than one forum for all this.

One normal bi talk forum, one political forum, one hahafunny forum. you know.

Much more fun this way Joe.. mazin how threads take on a life a ther own an move off in all sortsa tangents.. wud happen howeva ya set up Forums... Drew knos that..'mazin how everythin wen it cums down 2 it turns out 2 b linked...

[Bluebiyou]

To a great degree it appears that this site, and American opinions reflects the way America as a nation looks upon and treats the world...
Geroge W Bush was, and is fond of talking about freedom... heavy handed and unsavoury actions by the US the meaning of the word is devalued, and so many other people around the world simply do not believe that America any longer stands for the kind of freedom it once did.

On the issue of guns and gun control, with freedom goes discipline and responsibility... it is up to those who live in each country what they decide to do.

It is unsurprising then, that so many of us from other countries are suspicious of the United States, and to some extent react with contempt of our own.

America has watched the world disintegrate and rebuild (Europe twice in the past 100 years). What would have been a usa exercise similar to Iraq... in 1938 against Hitler... or in 1935 against Japan would have saved the world untold misery. We would have been derided more than we've been derided recently about the middle east, and we would have been right in spite of the contempt of the rest of the world.
Until the mideast is drained of oil, it will be a waring hotspot; usa involvement or not.
The USA post war method of rebuilding Japan and Germany worked beyond our wildest dreams. Negotiating and subsidizing N.Korea in 1995 failed to stop them from developing nukes. Does the world fear Japanese or German imperialism? And the proposition of USA imperialism... does Japan or Germany get it's orders from USA? Now, does the world fear N.Korea nukes, or Iran nukes?
W Bush may be an idiot, but he's not a complete idiot.
Global politics is complex. USA would have been nearly powerless to stop Stalin or Mao (by the time it became evident of their power and direction), and therefore in hindsight, foolish to try (well, that's over 100 million people down the drain). We must stop the new 'little Hitlers' whenever we can, before they are able to spiral the situation.

Regarding guns, yes, your statement about responsibility holds true. If someone uses a gun in a crime in the usa, they are punished threefold. If they kill someone, they face life in prison or death penalty. Even our tiny kids know that.

[goldenfinger]

It's been a while since I dropped in here, but been reading it often.
I have some questions for the pro-gun people.
1. Do you feel OK with knowing, that for you to have your right to have guns, some innocent people will die. Maybe one day it will be one of your family. Take all the school shootings and now this.(I blame Hollywood)
2. Who has the right to interpret the two words" bare, or bear arms, as some say, don't know which is right, as to mean "guns". These words was written over two hundred years ago when a gun was a front-loaded flint gun.The words could not have meant more then weapons available at that time. What will those words mean tomorrow, when today's guns is nothing but a pussycat.
If my interpretations of your Constitution is right, you should be allowed to carry a weapon of any size, as there is no mentions of any kind of weapon in the Constitution, as far as I know, but if there is, maybe someone will update me. I also believe the law can not overwrite the Constitution. Again, right me if I'm wrong. Does the Constitution say anything about who can and who can not carry weapons. ( I know they do it all the time, when it suit them)
There is an old saying, fear breeds fear.

Since the new gun laws came in to effect a few years ago here in Australia, there has been a sharp decrease in the numbers of family related murders, which account for almost 90 % or more, of all murders, much as in the US and other places. So is seems the biggest treads comes from your own family or friends.
Most criminals seems to shoot each other.
So, where will we be tomorrow. Who can look another two hundred years into the future and see what kind of gun will be under their beds.
Please think about tomorrow.
My:2cents:

[Bluebiyou]

Goldenfinger, your fears are absolutely based in fact.
An armed population will have an increased rate of crime and gun related harm over an unarmed population. Innocent people will die.
My assertion is:
project over a longer span of time.
Include war into the equation. 100s to 1000s of times the 'innocent people' will die.
A totally disarmed Australian population... how long will it be until China wants to make an omelet out of that egg? 25 years? 50 years? 75 years? Maybe it will be a hundred years. But the eventuality... the certainty... of hostile invasion of Australia by some Asian entity only increases with each passing year.
The best insurance for survivability of the largest percentage of the population is to be continuously armed.
Violence has 'solved' the most major world conflicts; it is the nature of mankind. The death of every democracy so far has been relaxation/division of military.
The right to vote is a wonderful thing, in theory. Don't forget that China has elections. Socialist Russia had elections, lot of good it did them.
There is much hope for the United States of Europe. Together, accepting their differences, they would/will be strong. Maybe they can sponsor quashing 'little Hitlers' while the USA whines... "you're just so self righteous".
Why are people whining about removing Sadam Hussein from power? Was he such a good guy? Shouldn't we stick around in Iraq until the society stabilizes? Isn't that the right thing to do?
...and Good Lord, I'm-a-jihadin is plotting Iran's course to nukes using N. Korea's method as a template!
#2 is a good question... anti gun biased people will use any definition, any individual situation to further 'regulate' (limit/reduce) gun ownership. Such as a single instance of two adults being killed by an 8 year old should somehow affect the gun standards we've been going by... that's seems to work for 99.999% of the 300million population? Yet there is a practical limit of fire power for an individual. If an emotionally/mentally ill individual 'plays sane' long enough to gather firepower, what should be the limit to that person's destructive capability? We should have background checks (got it). Cooling down period, I think that's everywhere. Automatic weapon capability (fully automatic) limited to more stringent credentials/license. Explosive license (dynamite) limited to demonstration of need and history. Farmers sometime do need dynamite to blow tree stumps/rocks to expand/improve fields. But I think this is even more limited today. Fertilizer and diesel... we can work on that but there'll always be (in)/organic explosive alternatives.

[_Joe_]

Much more fun this way Joe.. mazin how threads take on a life a ther own an move off in all sortsa tangents.. wud happen howeva ya set up Forums... Drew knos that..'mazin how everythin wen it cums down 2 it turns out 2 b linked...

Fun? FUN ?

Step 1 : Read about cum on food. Sorta tingly feeling.
Step 2 : Read about Creampies. Ok I'm horny.
Step 3 : Read about Politics. Oh crap I'm soft.
Step 4 : Read about US vs World. Oh fuck I want to tie knives to hamsters and set them loose upon the world....

[Bluebiyou]

...
Step 4 : Read about US vs World. Oh fuck I want to tie knives to hamsters and set them loose upon the world....

I prefer sharks with "lasers" attached to their heads.

Mmmmpf! Hampsters with knives! I like that!

[_Joe_]

Best enjoyed with friends!

[Bluebiyou]

I think this beats the gay masochistic 'gerbiling' any day!

[Bluebiyou]

By the way, goldenfinger,
regarding personal ownership of arms, ask some of your fellow countrymen. Ask survivors of WWII. Ask any of the 6 Australian survivors of the Sandakan Death March, or survivors of the Burma Railroad. Ask them their opinion of 'right to bear arms'.
Then ask yourself why people who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.

[darkeyes]

By the way, goldenfinger,
regarding personal ownership of arms, ask some of your fellow countrymen. Ask survivors of WWII. Ask any of the 6 Australian survivors of the Sandakan Death March, or survivors of the Burma Railroad. Ask them their opinion of 'right to bear arms'.
Then ask yourself why people who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.Blue..ya ramblin on like ya been hittin 2 much plonk or puffin way on 2 much notty smokey.. will respond 2 ya haff cut haff stoned drivels but not tonite..cos am off out for sum lite relief an giggles... but will catch up wivya an letcha hav it wiv both barrels (metaphorically speakin of course!!!)

Now sit in corner an try an not getchasel inta more trubble!!!:tong: Don worry me luffly..won forgetcha.. tee hee:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

God blue..ya dus talk sum rite ole tosh..leastya accept that wot ya call an armed population means more crime an more peeps dyin cosa that crime.. all the rest is jus tosh.. wot an armed population an more crime dus is desensitise the population 2 violence..spesh wer the pro gun lobby is so strong an influential the sensa power peeps get from holdin a firin a gun is awesome..awesome as in scary.. its drummed in its ya rite.. its also the rite a peeps not 2 b put in the position 2 b gunned down... anya don giv peeps that rite by havin haff or woteva the population is, carryin an reddy 2 use... mistakes happen we all kno that.. peeps r gunned down because a misunderstandins..by police an citizens alike..peeps r gunned down cosa insanity an lotsa otha reason a wich is nowt 2 do wiv protectin the innocent..

.. me undastands wy ya constitution sez wot it dus an wy the rites exist..am not convinced that the authors eva intended it 2 create such a bloody gr8 hoohah or 2 give peeps the rite 2 hav woteva weapons they like jus 2 uphold summat that wos drafted ova 200 years ago.. circumstances hav changed so much in that time that its time for 'merica 2 consider wetha it is relevant or rite in its present form.

...by havin an "armed population" tho Blue..ya don make war less likely.. nor do ya make ya country ne safer from invasion.. on the contrary ya make that country more likely 2 war, an ne country wich mite take the humph wivya will build inta the equation increased an more nasty ways a killin ur side...cos 2 ovacum they hav no choice... yas fond a talkin bout Nazi Germany an ya jus look at history an wer Germany knew the only way 2 defeat the US wos by bein first 2 develop Nuclear weapons delivered by systems wich we all kno bout 2 day... it will in short make war more bloody an more likely..cos peeps r desensitised by livin in a gun culture..an that desensitivity will make em more bloodthirsty an reddy 2 do almos ne thin 2 achieve ther end.. in the case a the US rite now no 1 can take ya on an beatya..least not onya home soil.. but that won always b the case...no top dog stays top dog foreva...100 years or so ago the UK wos top dog.. an even wen its empire wos dissolvin in fronta its eyes it refused 2 believe it... for a century no 1 wiv ne sense wud dream a takin it on least not on its home patch.. as Britain weakened an as it became a softer touch, lil places decided it wos time 2 hav a lil pay bak...an a cuppla rite big 1's an all... in time that may yet happen 2 the US...wen they day cums..a century or 2 or 5 or howeva many... how the US acts an treats otha peeps will determine how it is treated by those countries who supplant it militarily an economically...

Wen we r kids, our parents forget a lot bout how they treated us..they also forget that we grow up an sumtimes..if treated ratha badly wetha in our imagination or reality.. ther is pay bak.. an so taken 2 the international stage so it is wiv nations... an sumtimes that pay bak can b a bitch...wiv tragic consequences...

Personal violence is the lowest common demonator..left unchecked it will poison a person, all that they touch, an ultimately society an humanity as a whole... ther r otha ways a protectin ourselvs otha than firearms.. or knives..or baseball bats... each in its way dehumanises us by desensitisin us..the more it happens an the more we c.. the more our society an world is likely 2 war...

Ya knos bout me pacifism Blue.. am an absolute pacifist an in the words a JC me prefers 2 turn the otha cheek no matta wot.. but am human..wiv human emotions an feelins.. am not infallible an hav reacted badly on the spur a the moment an made things worse than they need othawise hav been... such is the reaction of nations..large an small... an such is the creation of misery wich need neva hav been all ova the planet.. affectin all of us.. it starts small Blue..an works its poisonous way up..until everythin is contaminated...

Now wile me has that pacifism, me also knos that humanity is a long way off a bein mature enufff or reddy 2 hav a truly pacifist world...we r all flawed.. but me has me dream..an that in time we will get ther.. 2 change attitudes we mus act small an build up... gr8er gun control is a small price 2 pay for an eventual boon of peace 2 humanity... it won b in my lifetime or for many lifetimes afta.. but me believes in it wiv a pash an wan summat betta for our world..ALL of our world... than the endless cycle a violence misery an war... wot u say an believe is so diff not only in essence but in the dream. ur way encourages an maintains wot is now.. it in no way makes ne concession that sum day..ther mite jus b summat betta..

Kissie..muah!!!:bigrin:

[Bluebiyou]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
I would walk the path hand in hand with Fran.
The path to peace, pacifism, and unarmed love for all.
Except I understand the nature of mankind.
1-4% of all men and women are sociopaths.
Some of these sociopaths find their way to the very top of the social ladder.
President, Prime Minister...
Some remain at the bottom... the scum, the violent hateful we grow up with that go right into and rule the prison system (8 year olds that shoot 2 adults?). Sociopathy is perfectly suited to rule and reign in a prison system.
The oddballs/celebrities... Manson,Ted Bundy, Ed Guin, KBTM, Jack the Ripper, many, many, many, many, many, many, many others less famous.
They will always be among us in every tier of society.
Wearing lies like clothing.
Pretending hard... to the extent of their art... to be 'one of the sheep'.
Indeed, that is usually (indeed nearly) the only way to the top... having no scruples... just not getting caught... and portraying... whatever is needed to be portrayed... patriotic... humanist... loyal... profitable...
Which ladder are you climbing?
There are some, true to the faith, that climb... and accidentally make it.
Tom Jefferson was one.
There were many others.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Napolean, Vlad,... many, many, many, others were clearly from the 'other side'.
They are a percentage part of humanity... whatever rules we set up, they will (at least at some good percentage) avoid detection of violation... with disregard of other things...
This is my thesis.

[goldenfinger]

I can not imagine what it is like to live with such fear as you do, but asking most Australians, and they totally agree with the tough gun laws. You know, in other things we say "if it saves one life, it's worth it", but not here.
I'm surprised that only one has commented on my questions, is it really that hard.
Just had a look at the Constitution 2nd amendment, right to bear arms. No mention of what kind of arms. Arms does not spell gun in any way. Some note said you can have a gun, but not a atomic bomb. Now, that was NEVER written by the founding fathers of the Constitution, so someone has been tinkling with the Constitution against the Constitution. So much for the Constitution. The Constitution does not say either that the unstable or sick does not have the right to defend themself. Again, interfering with the Constitution.
I wonder if you could get two expert on the Constitution to agree on what the Constitution really was ment to mean. The truth is, nobody knows. Time for a change. No constitution should have a life span of more then 50 years in todays world.
Well, I found another :2cents:

[DiamondDog]

Goldenfinger, your fears are absolutely based in fact.
An armed population will have an increased rate of crime and gun related harm over an unarmed population. Innocent people will die.
My assertion is:
project over a longer span of time.
Include war into the equation. 100s to 1000s of times the 'innocent people' will die.
A totally disarmed Australian population... how long will it be until China wants to make an omelet out of that egg? 25 years? 50 years? 75 years? Maybe it will be a hundred years. But the eventuality... the certainty... of hostile invasion of Australia by some Asian entity only increases with each passing year.
The best insurance for survivability of the largest percentage of the population is to be continuously armed.
Violence has 'solved' the most major world conflicts; it is the nature of mankind. The death of every democracy so far has been relaxation/division of military.
The right to vote is a wonderful thing, in theory. Don't forget that China has elections. Socialist Russia had elections, lot of good it did them.
There is much hope for the United States of Europe. Together, accepting their differences, they would/will be strong. Maybe they can sponsor quashing 'little Hitlers' while the USA whines... "you're just so self righteous".
Why are people whining about removing Sadam Hussein from power? Was he such a good guy? Shouldn't we stick around in Iraq until the society stabilizes? Isn't that the right thing to do?
...and Good Lord, I'm-a-jihadin is plotting Iran's course to nukes using N. Korea's method as a template!
#2 is a good question... anti gun biased people will use any definition, any individual situation to further 'regulate' (limit/reduce) gun ownership. Such as a single instance of two adults being killed by an 8 year old should somehow affect the gun standards we've been going by... that's seems to work for 99.999% of the 300million population? Yet there is a practical limit of fire power for an individual. If an emotionally/mentally ill individual 'plays sane' long enough to gather firepower, what should be the limit to that person's destructive capability? We should have background checks (got it). Cooling down period, I think that's everywhere. Automatic weapon capability (fully automatic) limited to more stringent credentials/license. Explosive license (dynamite) limited to demonstration of need and history. Farmers sometime do need dynamite to blow tree stumps/rocks to expand/improve fields. But I think this is even more limited today. Fertilizer and diesel... we can work on that but there'll always be (in)/organic explosive alternatives.

Agreed.

Even if guns are banned/outlawed people will just find a way to get them anyway or the sociopaths you wrote about will just kill people with other weapons.

Don't believe me? Look at www.dailyrotten.com and look at all the weird ways people die/get killed.

[DiamondDog]

Blue-I watched a disturbing/scary documentary about Jonestown, the socialist Rev. Jim Jones/Peoples Temple, and the people who escaped from Jonestown the other night and it made me feel physically sick/sad, and I went to bed early but I didn't have any nightmares.

[darkeyes]

Agreed.

Even if guns are banned/outlawed people will just find a way to get them anyway or the sociopaths you wrote about will just kill people with other weapons.

Don't believe me? Look at www.dailyrotten.com and look at all the weird ways people die/get killed.
...an that means ya sit on ya hands an do sod all bout it like dus it??? Jus make it easy for 'em.. rite.. thats progress.. glad me 'ere an not ova ther ne ways...

[DiamondDog]

...an that means ya sit on ya hands an do sod all bout it like dus it??? Jus make it easy for 'em.. rite.. thats progress.. glad me 'ere an not ova ther ne ways...

I didn't say that we should do nothing Fran. Face reality, the UK has plenty of sociopaths too. ;) Just own up to it, you don't like the United States or the majority of Americans.

[chook]

I can not imagine what it is like to live with such fear as you do, but asking most Australians, and they totally agree with the tough gun laws. You know, in other things we say "if it saves one life, it's worth it", but not here.
I'm surprised that only one has commented on my questions, is it really that hard.
Just had a look at the Constitution 2nd amendment, right to bear arms. No mention of what kind of arms. Arms does not spell gun in any way. Some note said you can have a gun, but not a atomic bomb. Now, that was NEVER written by the founding fathers of the Constitution, so someone has been tinkling with the Constitution against the Constitution. So much for the Constitution. The Constitution does not say either that the unstable or sick does not have the right to defend themself. Again, interfering with the Constitution.
I wonder if you could get two expert on the Constitution to agree on what the Constitution really was ment to mean. The truth is, nobody knows. Time for a change. No constitution should have a life span of more then 50 years in todays world.
Well, I found another :2cents:

I gotta say Goldfinger, you either dont read the news or you have been living under a rock for a few years, with the introduction of Howards "tough new gun laws" all he managed to do was to disarm law abiding citizens and now the crims are having a field day using any weapon the choose.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'm 53 and when I was a kid most crims used either a sawn off shotgun or a cut down 22 to ply their trade and they mainly dealt between themselves. Since Johnnys "tough new gun laws" I dont know if you have noticed or not but hand gun crime in this country has tripled and they are easier to obtain than a legitimate rifle.
I've been in the shooting sports all my life and I own 8 firearms and I even used to have pistols, but due to the knee jerk reaction of a so called leader that hated firearms my sport and that of many others has been turned on its head.
Quite frankly I really dont care about Americas constitution or the second amendment, what worries me is what goes on in my country. Now Goldfinger our so called "tough new gun laws" were introduced when that maniac went crazy at Port Arthur killing 35 innocent people, why wasnt there an inquiry as to how that fucking idiot managed to get all that ammunition and an AR15 that was handed into the Victorian police during a gun amnesty in that state?? How could it have possibly ended up in his hands when it should have been destroyed?
On that note, with police stations getting sprayed with automatic bullets and the drive by shootings and all the people who have died and been injured by semi auto handguns since the Port Arthur killings......I ask you how in hell do you think that Australia was made safer by John Howards "tough new gun laws"

Cheers Chook :bigrin:


BTW I havent mentioned on the increase in stabbings and knife related crime since all this bullshit came about on purpose.

[DiamondDog]

I gotta say Goldfinger, you either dont read the news or you have been living under a rock for a few years, with the introduction of Howards "tough new gun laws" all he managed to do was to disarm law abiding citizens and now the crims are having a field day using any weapon the choose.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'm 53 and when I was a kid most crims used either a sawn off shotgun or a cut down 22 to ply their trade and they mainly dealt between themselves. Since Johnnys "tough new gun laws" I dont know if you have noticed or not but hand gun crime in this country has tripled and they are easier to obtain than a legitimate rifle.
I've been in the shooting sports all my life and I own 8 firearms and I even used to have pistols, but due to the knee jerk reaction of a so called leader that hated firearms my sport and that of many others has been turned on its head.
Quite frankly I really dont care about Americas constitution or the second amendment, what worries me is what goes on in my country. Now Goldfinger our so called "tough new gun laws" were introduced when that maniac went crazy at Port Arthur killing 35 innocent people, why wasnt there an inquiry as to how that fucking idiot managed to get all that ammunition and an AR15 that was handed into the Victorian police during a gun amnesty in that state?? How could it have possibly ended up in his hands when it should have been destroyed?
On that note, with police stations getting sprayed with automatic bullets and the drive by shootings and all the people who have died and been injured by semi auto handguns since the Port Arthur killings......I ask you how in hell do you think that Australia was made safer by John Howards "tough new gun laws"

Cheers Chook :bigrin:


BTW I havent mentioned on the increase in stabbings and knife related crime since all this bullshit came about on purpose.

So what happened in Porth Arthur? Also what are Australia's gun laws now and what were they like before?

[chook]

So what happened in Porth Arthur? Also what are Australia's gun laws now and what were they like before?

Too much to go into....google it, look up a guy called Martin Bryant and look up our gun laws as well.


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

:( Sumhow me jus don believe those who r pro gun eva wanna change ther society.. can talk till me blue (blue..tee hee..gerrit it??:bigrin: o well nev mind..;))in the face but those who like ther "rite 2 bear arms" r jus so deeply entrenched, it wudn matta wot ne 1 sed or wot evidence wos put up.. they wud stay as they r like dinosaurs tryin 2 bat away an asteroid wiv a ping pong bat...

Sum peeps jus don wanna try an make the social changes, an try an educate an change attitudes an at least try an make the kinda society wer the sortsa slaughters wich go on year afta year afta year no longa happen.. :( Well on ur heads b it.. keepya dangerous toys..jus hope ya belief in ya gun rites neva cum bak 2 haunt yas...

[aheatseeker]

if somebody doesnt like gun or weapons or wants them, then they dont have to have them. but dont infringe on my second amendment right. every country who enacted gun control laws ended up with higher crime and murder rates. every country that committed genocide on its own people were started with gun registration and gun and weapons control laws.
why does one call a policeman? because he has a GUN. otherwise you dont need him. do you call him over for tea? no unless he is your relative.
so everybody keep opinions to yourselves and just follow the laws and dont change them. this country is going down the tubes by changing everything. most of the old ways were better.

[chook]

if somebody doesnt like gun or weapons or wants them, then they dont have to have them. but dont infringe on my second amendment right. every country who enacted gun control laws ended up with higher crime and murder rates. every country that committed genocide on its own people were started with gun registration and gun and weapons control laws.
why does one call a policeman? because he has a GUN. otherwise you dont need him. do you call him over for tea? no unless he is your relative.
so everybody keep opinions to yourselves and just follow the laws and dont change them. this country is going down the tubes by changing everything. most of the old ways were better.

They are going to change your laws weather you like it or not, and they'll do it so your beloved second amendment will not be affected...you just wait and see, it happened here,and dont forget your NRA is not government.

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[goldenfinger]

I gotta say Goldfinger, you either dont read the news or you have been living under a rock for a few years, with the introduction of Howards "tough new gun laws" all he managed to do was to disarm law abiding citizens and now the crims are having a field day using any weapon the choose.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'm 53 and when I was a kid most crims used either a sawn off shotgun or a cut down 22 to ply their trade and they mainly dealt between themselves. Since Johnnys "tough new gun laws" I dont know if you have noticed or not but hand gun crime in this country has tripled and they are easier to obtain than a legitimate rifle.
I've been in the shooting sports all my life and I own 8 firearms and I even used to have pistols, but due to the knee jerk reaction of a so called leader that hated firearms my sport and that of many others has been turned on its head.
Quite frankly I really dont care about Americas constitution or the second amendment, what worries me is what goes on in my country. Now Goldfinger our so called "tough new gun laws" were introduced when that maniac went crazy at Port Arthur killing 35 innocent people, why wasnt there an inquiry as to how that fucking idiot managed to get all that ammunition and an AR15 that was handed into the Victorian police during a gun amnesty in that state?? How could it have possibly ended up in his hands when it should have been destroyed?
On that note, with police stations getting sprayed with automatic bullets and the drive by shootings and all the people who have died and been injured by semi auto handguns since the Port Arthur killings......I ask you how in hell do you think that Australia was made safer by John Howards "tough new gun laws"

Cheers Chook :bigrin:


BTW I havent mentioned on the increase in stabbings and knife related crime since all this bullshit came about on purpose.

Chook, you got one thing totally wrong, the hand/buy back came AFTER PA, not before, so there was NO reason why he should hand in his gun. Maybe you live in Melbourne, I don't. But as I said and you also said, chrims are busy killing themself, and most people murdered are done so by people they know, family and friends, and this hold true everywhere. Guess who was a law abiding citizen and gun license holder, the nut in Finland who just hours AFTER police talked to him and deemed him fit to hold a gun, shot 6 of his friends and then himself. Blame will bring no one back.
Most of the family killings are done by law abiding citizens.....Till something clicks. The increase in knife attack by young people is a culture of worth-less
gangs who have nothing but RAP shit in their head. Past on from America.
Isn't funny how it is the pro gun people who feel fearful and the rest of us live with peace of mind.
As I said before, what will tomorrows guns be like. When children ask,"what is a bullet, there will be no bullets, but some kind of rays we can't even begin to imagine today.
Pass the popcorn.

[chook]

Chook, you got one thing totally wrong, the hand/buy back came AFTER PA, not before, so there was NO reason why he should hand in his gun. Maybe you live in Melbourne, I don't. But as I said and you also said, chrims are busy killing themself, and most people murdered are done so by people they know, family and friends, and this hold true everywhere. Guess who was a law abiding citizen and gun license holder, the nut in Finland who just hours AFTER police talked to him and deemed him fit to hold a gun, shot 6 of his friends and then himself. Blame will bring no one back.
Most of the family killings are done by law abiding citizens.....Till something clicks. The increase in knife attack by young people is a culture of worth-less
gangs who have nothing but RAP shit in their head. Past on from America.
Isn't funny how it is the pro gun people who feel fearful and the rest of us live with peace of mind.
As I said before, what will tomorrows guns be like. When children ask,"what is a bullet, there will be no bullets, but some kind of rays we can't even begin to imagine today.
Pass the popcorn.

I strongly sugest for you to read what I wrote again and this time please take your time, and then tell me who got what arse about face and you still didnt answer my question.....in what way did the buyback make Australia a safer place??????? and btw I live in NSW ......and please dont insult me with a whole lot of bullshit.

Cheers Chook :bigrin: