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12voltman59
Nov 24, 2008, 7:39 AM
Waking up this morning-----the news is talking about the imminent collapse of Citibank, one of the world's largest financial companies, and the decision by the Treasury to extend them a "bailout" to the tune of about $350 billion.

You do have to wonder---where and when will this all end???

It seems that instead of anything getting better-----the hole just gets deeper and deeper.

They get talking about "when is the other shoe going to drop?" I thought the metaphorical person we were talking about was a two footed being----now it seems this "person" is some sort of hydra monster with many, many feet.

We have the pending wholesale collapse of the US auto industry----something that if it does happen-----that is thought too scary to even contemplate----I know it does for me and my family----my parents own a company that is a second tier supplier of parts that are made for direct line suppliers of assemblies for the auto, light and heavy truck, railroad locomotive and railcar manufacturers--all industries in deep, deep do-do now!

If the US car makers go down (at least GM and Chrysler are in danger of going)---at least going into bankruptcy proceedings--something that in terms of seeing to the necessary retooling those companies do need to do----it will be a disaster for the rest of us who supply them----they don't have to pay their suppliers along the supply chain at least for a time ---and guess what folks--if they don't pay us little guys out here---we can go maybe six months at best--then we are alll GONE!!

Actually--many of the little guys who supply the auto industry are in not that bad of shape-its just that we do operate on a thin edge--it is the big main line, first tier of auto suppliers like Delphi and Dana Holdings that will be gone--they are all companies that have been in trouble for some time.

When the auto companies would emerge out of bankruptcy proceedings----those in Congress who wanted this will have won that battle only to have lost the war because there won't be anyone left to supply them the parts they need to run those auto plants--unless of course they give all of us a big bailout too--but I doubt that--we are just the little "mom and pop" pisants that don't get on the radar of the crowd in Washington---

If all of our little supply companies go down--those companies represent many, many jobs in many, many places all over America, Canada and other countries--many of those workers are at a point in life--the probability they will find another job of any consequence is pretty damn low in better times--and in this current situation---pretty much going to be nil.

If many of the little companies go down--those people no longer go eat in mom and pop cafes--they don't buy new cars or houses----they start cutting their own hair at home with a set of clippers bought at Wal-Mart and not go to the barber shop or "hair stylist" shops----I could go on--

The fact is--the "multiplier effect" of the auto industry is simply incredible--it is something like a ratio of ten to one--for each job lost directly at one of the big three---you lose at least ten jobs in the greater and wider economy----

I hear that one US Senator talk on the taking head shows---Richard Shelby of Tennessee----in one way he is right--the auto industry has made a whole series of mistakes that need to be rectified, so he thinks that bankruptcy is just fine and the best way for that to happen--on the one hand---I agreee if the times were different---but with things as they are now----to risk all of those second and third tier suppliers with a period of time the auto companies don't have to pay what they owe---now is not the time for that!!!

He may be correct on the surface of things--but with at least GM and Chrysler going into bankruptcy--that will be a disaster for so many people----

The auto industry does need a bailout----but not without some very big strings attached---and it does seem that there are those in Congress who are looking to put such proper conditions in place in order for the automakers to get their bailout.

Actually--the nature of the bailout would somehow best be used to supply credit to those who want to buy a car----because with the current credit lock up---even people with great credit are having a hard time getting auto loans----of course---the other problem is--if you think you are going to lose your job----you don't want to take out a big note---and that is wise----

We do need some sort of major stimulus program to get the economy moving again--because that is the crux of the current situation--those in Congress want to bash the automakers for their past sins----not help them with the current problem. They conflate the two situations.

That is another point---many of the little companies out here----we have good credit ratings, pay our bills and such--and we have great relationships with our banks---banks that are not in trouble because they acted prudently--but--they are finding it difficult to get credit themselves--so they can't lend us those various short term loans and lines of credit that is part and parcel to doing business----so---if we come to a crunch time--one incident can set us off down a negative spiral that only ends in our crashing hard to the ground!!

I do like to try to be optimistic about things--but I dare say folks----there is not much to be optimistic about at present---it is the uncertainty of what we face----we know we are going to go through some hard times---the question is---how bad is it going to be and for how long will it last???

Stay tuned---I am sure we still have "other shoes to be dropped!"

Sorry to be on such a downer!! :(:(

void()
Nov 24, 2008, 9:10 AM
Please do not refer to this as definitive, as I am not completely abreast of all issues pertaining. However, recently there was mention the company I work for was going to seek out chapter 11 bankruptcy. They already cut out 375 salaried employees via lay off or sending them back to the line. Next up was the chapter 11 according to the last I heard.

Our company processes out chicken for major high end customers. Some of those customers include McDonalds, KFC, Wal-Mart, Publix, Appleby's, TGIF and so on. We deal with retailers not end user customers. The plant where I help process does extremely well, listed in the top ten of the nation and possibly the world. Our night shift crew kicks ass.

Everyone in the plant understands something I take as being 'Cheshire' mentality. "Never walk alone, always hang together." Each person does their fair share and then some. An example would be me on Friday night. One fellow was at another station doing that part, he needed to go to the bathroom. He hollered at a guy beside me, and he pointed to the guy. I took his place and let him go to the bathroom.

When he returned, I moved down the line and took the place of a lady. "Bano, momma?" She went and returned a few minutes later. It was no trouble for me, nor 'the line'. The fellow up at my position can process it as well, if not a little better than me. He was fine and saw what I was doing, nodded approval. Once I returned to my position, he took off for the bathroom. Upon his return I went for a quick drink of water. The line kept moving.

Bear in mind a few things. I do not speak enough Espanol to be comfortable engaging in conversation. Some of the Hispanic people are the same with English. Not all of them hail from Mexico, some are from Honduras, Cuba, and other various places. Recently I was asked if I was from the United States, in all seriousness. They thought me from Russia. It was not much of a surprise for them to learn I have gitano or gypsy in my blood. "Yes my family stole horses, my wife's stole ships, they were pirates."

Another thing to keep in mind, despite the communication obstructions, we do manage to remain in the top ten percent of all poultry processors. This I think is what our new 'Boss' will expect of all of us here in the U.S.. We must learn to work together as a whole. You see someone who needs help, step up and offer a hand if you can. Especially take care to help the elderly and children, both deserve that courtesy.

Remember, we are a United people aiming for a common goal. No matter how dark the road ahead looks we can shine through it if we but dare.

darkeyes
Nov 24, 2008, 10:01 AM
*Sings happily 2 'ersel at capitalism's crisis an how they toodle long so willingly for state handouts an help 2 save ther greedy fat arses an scrawny lil necks...*:bigrin:

*Changes tune 2 summat lil less cheery as she thinksa capitalism's usual opinion a state hand outs an help 2 million's a ordinaire peeps wen they in deep poop...*:rolleyes:

*Changes 2 rite morbid lil tune wen she thinksa jus who is gonna end up still bein condemned as parasites an loafers an ne'er-do-wells durin' an afta capitalism is bailed outa its bollok mess...*:eek:

*Sound a wailin' heard as she realises jus who is gonna suffa far an way mos badly as captalism's crisis lurches from bad to 2 worse fore it gets dug outa its own poop...*:(

_Joe_
Nov 24, 2008, 10:23 AM
Whatever you do, never say "Things can't get any worse"


That's a red carpet for something worse to walk in on.

FalconAngel
Nov 24, 2008, 2:07 PM
Whatever you do, never say "Things can't get any worse"


That's a red carpet for something worse to walk in on.

Very true.

It's equal to "This ship is so safe that even God cannot sink it". We all know what happened there.

MissyMissy
Nov 24, 2008, 2:10 PM
hmm. i screwed up my life and it was not intentional. am i eligible for this bailout?(being sarcastic here)

chook
Nov 24, 2008, 2:20 PM
Ain't greed just fucking dandy :bowdown:



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

MaybeSayMaybe
Nov 24, 2008, 10:58 PM
The big three made big mistakes last Wednesday, and so did Nancy Pelosi and her buddies when they pulled the rug out from under them. The markets reacted very violently, and that got the attention of congress. On Thursday, Congress made that silly whitepaper announcement and the markets sold off again.

If the big three go under there are the immediate problems of pension checks, unemployment payments, etc. That's bad. The markets don't like the idea of another $100B owed by the big three to banks going up in smoke. On top of that, the entire manufacturing sector in this country, already on the edge as mentioned above, would start to unravel. Machine tool companies, then a spillover into aircraft, then high tech.

A real fucking disaster if Congress keeps throwing lit matches around in a gunpowder factory like they did last week. But it's politics - some of these people have foreign-owned assembly plants in their districts.

They will cough up the $25B now that the markets sliced through the Oct lows and destroyed another trillion or so of value. And the big three will keep stumbling. This is turning into a replay of British Leyland. There is a way out of this mess, but it will take time and some smart moves. Smart moves are not what we are seeing. So cross your fingers and pray that our leaders smarten up.

wolfcamp
Nov 25, 2008, 12:46 AM
The big three should consolidate. Ford Dodge Chevrolet. Call them Fudge-ole.

Seriously (well not really) this bail out thing sounds like kindergarden. First one kindergardener comes up to the teacher and says, I hurt my finger, I need a bandaid. Then suddenly 3 more are standing there saying, We hurt our fingers. We need bandaids too.

ghytifrdnr
Nov 25, 2008, 1:54 AM
Does anyone here remember that Chrysler Corp. had to be bailed out by the feds back in the eighties? How many of us will get not one do-over, but two?

AFTER9
Nov 26, 2008, 8:24 AM
Now would seem to be an opportune time to kill two birds with one stone so to speak. If we are bailing out these companies we should be realizing some benefits from it beyond propping up the economy and saving jobs.
One example may be getting some of the older more polluting cars, SUVs and trucks off our highways. Another may be building buses to improve our inadequate public transportation system.
An idea may be a we're both in this together type partnership. A let's get back to work and build the future type mindset. Don't think of only what will keep these companies afloat but more like a bridge that gets them where they need to be.

Seperate from my previous thought is just a gripe about the face these companies are presenting. Just turn on any NFL game and you get bombarded with these "Be more manly by purchasing these tough trucks" the kind that will tow pallets of bricks up mountainsides in a blizzard. The kind that cost 40k and get 8mpg. Whats up with that? Just looking down my block I can see at least half a dozen such vehicles and I doubt that more than one owner of them has a legitimate reason to have such a large vehicle.

FalconAngel
Nov 26, 2008, 10:56 AM
hmm. i screwed up my life and it was not intentional. am i eligible for this bailout?(being sarcastic here)

No, you are not. Had it been your fault, THEN you would be eligible for the bailout.

Oh, you also need to have CEO's with golden parachutes that need protecting while the rest of the company sinks.

FalconAngel
Nov 26, 2008, 11:05 AM
......"Be more manly by purchasing these tough trucks" the kind that will tow pallets of bricks up mountainsides in a blizzard. The kind that cost 40k and get 8mpg. Whats up with that? Just looking down my block I can see at least half a dozen such vehicles and I doubt that more than one owner of them has a legitimate reason to have such a large vehicle.

It could be worse.

I have a former boss who had to have a Hummer (8mpg highway), and when gas prices jumped, he complained about how much it took to fill his tank.

The saddest part is that he lives in the town of Wellington (overpriced homes and Palm Beach County's "horse town" - lots of stables and such). Because the roads are hard-packed unpaved surface, he says that no other vehicle will handle it.
And he's a former Marine.
I have to wonder how he would have survived in the days when lots of roads were not paved and they had no Hummers to drive. More important than that, how does he ride his Harley to work if only his Hummer can handle the roads?
My folks seemed to handle it okay with their cars, when I was a kid.

jem_is_bi
Nov 26, 2008, 11:19 PM
Ain't greed just fucking dandy :bowdown:



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

Greed is ok, but only if there are strick rules that keep it from causing problems. Otherwise, you get what we now have now.
We need rules of what is fair and what is not fair that cannot be circumvented. Only then, will people rise to the top of the corporations and government who excel within rules that protect the greater good of all society. Otherwise, we will continue to get mostly those that know a lot about self-enrichment but little or nothing about what they are entrusted to do for their company or society.

jem_is_bi
Nov 26, 2008, 11:39 PM
No, you are not. Had it been your fault, THEN you would be eligible for the bailout.

Oh, you also need to have CEO's with golden parachutes that need protecting while the rest of the company sinks.

You need to be in banking. Those that run our country and many others lose sleep and shed many tears over their bank friends (and campaign donors) plight. But, I am not sure if you claim to be a Nigerian banker that you will qualify for a bailout because they have not stole enough money over the Internet. Further, maybe because they do have some morals, they have not been willing to share some of their scammed money with those that we elected to provide proper oversight.

12voltman59
Nov 26, 2008, 11:54 PM
This current economic meltdown is not just something happening only in the US and the UK--nearly every country in the world is being affected by it in some fashion----it does go to show that the world is a very much more interconnected place than it was in the past.

A ripple in one place can be a tsunami in another in terms of the economy and such----

It really is amazing at just how wide spread this situation is----

parkerbi
Nov 27, 2008, 4:02 AM
Whatever you do, never say "Things can't get any worse"


That's a red carpet for something worse to walk in on.

YES!!!!!!

DiamondDog
Nov 29, 2008, 2:44 AM
They can get a lot worse. We're not there yet. Ask people who lived through the great depression.

jem_is_bi
Nov 30, 2008, 1:40 AM
They can get a lot worse. We're not there yet. Ask people who lived through the great depression.

That is a very real possibility. But, I hope we are able to avoid that level of worldwide misery and world war that was so soon to follow.

Hephaestion
Nov 30, 2008, 6:32 AM
And so the myth of the ever expanding economy is now exposed. It was expanded artifically by 'globalisation' while at the same time localising the repositories of wealth (feelgood factor for cheap goods from abroad while belssing the entrepeneurs is one aspect) When money stops flowing then that's when the pain starts, hence the great national governement initiated projects of yesteryear to relieve situations.

Yes it can get worse, especially in those countries / associations where primary production and manufacture are not prominent. However, the last thing that is needed there is intensive agriculture and continuation of the throw away society. Instead economies should be adjusted towards maintenance societies with an ecocolgy conscience.

That frames the real challenge which has has yet to be dealt with. The overpopulation of the world which is now begining to bite, albeit gently. The real trick there will be how to stop the demanded biological crash and turn it into a gentle descent for all of mankind. We are past the natural resource replenishment point for any single generation. Reminder here that mankind is the biggest pest species that this planet endures.

In the meanwhile, how does one deal with escaping population migrations with any humanity? The accusation that cannot be avoided is that all governments have been avoiding the situation by passing the problem on to succeeeding generations. It is pyramid selling by any other name.

On a lighter note, I was amused this weekend by a sketch on the BBC's "Now show" where a robotic terminator comes back from the future to eliminate the present 'Chancelor of the Exchequer' for putting all of the future generations into unspeakable debt. Obviously the sketch was UK centric but worldy poignant.

'SNAFU' gains another airing

12voltman59
Nov 30, 2008, 6:21 PM
You do have to wonder---it seems that each week we learn of yet one more financial organziation of major size that is in trouble--since I wrote the OP----Citigroup came out that it was basically bust and it needed a major bailout---we are still waiting to see what is going to be done about the Detroit Three automakers---I do predict--they will recieve some form of "bailout."

Let us just hope that we have gotten past the worst of the problems and can move the problems through the system and get things going again.

It does seem that we do have a major convergence of many things in society at this time--it had almost seemed that major terrorist actions were going down--now we have the nearly four-day seige of Mumbai---let us hope that is not going to be the new model for Islamic terrorist actions.

It is pretty damn hard to defend places like tourist hotels, train stations, residential neighborhoods and even hospitals from attacks by terrorists of this type.

This attack was a bit scarier in nature than the 9/11 attack since other than some good planning and well done execution--it is relatively easy and cheap to do attacks like what took place in this incident in contrast to a sophisticated one to hijack passenger planes and turn them into guided missiles.

This attack can serve as a model for all classes of disaffected and pissed off people in places anywhere in the world and not much can be done to stop it if they are at all competent and don't do something stupid to get caught while they ramp up to do the dastardly deed.