Praising God

[AdamKadmon43]

I think that the thing that most annoys me about religious beliefs is that it, in some aspects, it causes people to completely and totally lose their sensibilities.

In a state of total amazement, I watch people praising their god for having spared them, or saved them from from some catastrophic disaster that he could have easily prevented from happening in the first damn place. One would think that a god who could create a Universe with about 100 billion galaxies (each containing about 100 billion solar systems) could certainly prevent an earthquake.

And then you see people screaming "baby killers" at people who have abortions. And doing so in the name of a god who has managed to kill more babies than abortion could possibly ever hope to do. It is estimated that about one million children a year in Africa die from malaria. Who knows how many die from other diseases and malnutrition. Children all over the world die every day as a result of starvation and earthquakes and Tsunamis, and hurricanes and floods. And they die in the most horrible manner. And they are not just fetuses who may or may not feel anything..... they are viable human beings that definately feel pain and suffering.

And then you have people who strap bombs to themselves and blow up everything around them in the name of their god. (Here comes the "not all that many" excuse)

The god of christianity and Islam and Judism may be deserving of fear. But that monstrosity is certainly not deserving of love or worship or praise.

All that having been said...... I feel much better now.

[Long Duck Dong]

its the way you understand religion that is the key........

its a bit like blaming G bush for the acts of the taliban etc


I am not a christian, I make that clear..... just in case people confuse what I am about to say

to blame a god for events and happenings around the world, is a way of removing personal responsibility and culpability

we can talk about the deaths of people from a tsunami and blame god.... but who built the houses by the sea side ??? god or the people....

we can talk about the deaths of people by tornados and blame god.... but who still build the houses in tornado alley??? god or the people

we can talk about the needless numbers of deaths in africa and other places, but who has the kids, and what religion is opposing the use of birth control...??? god or the people


now you have to stop and look at the fact, that people do things in the name of god, and we blame them for their misguided beliefs.... and that people blame god for nature..... but nature is a ongoing part of the planet we live in......

maybe we should attack god for volcano eruptions that add more to land mass without causing deaths.....
maybe we should attack god for the bush fires that burn off 100's of acres and trigger regrowth and new growth....
maybe we should attack god for the torrential rains that help the rain forests grow.....

sighs, the simple fact of the matter is that man kind likes to blame any one and any thing other than themselves for things that happen......
a bit like the nz goverment that wanted to oppose a tax on farting cows for fucking the ozone.....

hey we even like to blame our partners for the fact that we can not fuck everything that moves......

but back to the OP statement of its gods fault..... to that I have one answer actually...... prove that god is responsible for things.... cos its fucking easy to blame god for something.... and not ourselves.... and we do have enuf scientific knowledge to know a few things like :

1 ) if you fuck people, they can have kids and kids need food

2 ) tidal waves / tsunamis can happen, you increase the risk by building villages, towns and cities by the shores....

3) hurricanes and tornados are common in some places.... if you build cities in areas where they are common, the chances that one will fuck up your world, is more likely....

4) 2 nukes dropped on japan..... on what flight was god the pilot

[AdamKadmon43]

you have managed to totally miss my point.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well said Adam.

Then you have Pagans and Wiccan people who claim that they are worshipping old archaic Gods/goddesses when they are really practicing a modern day religion and their gods and goddesses which do not exist will not help them at all no matter how many bullshit spells or rituals they do that are pointless and just as bad as the rituals of Christianity that they say that they are above and so not like that religion when they are.

cumsloppyhole.... please tell me what i beleive in ..... since I am wiccan in belief... since you claim to know more about my beliefs than I do.....
and please to no use google to copy and paste the BS from google that has NOTHING to do with my wiccan beleifs at all

[Long Duck Dong]

you have managed to totally miss my point.

what that you wanna attack religion ???? no I got that loud and clear, I thought I would rise the level of this thread above that of a bitch fit / troll thread

[AdamKadmon43]

Well said Adam.

Then you have Pagans and Wiccan people who claim that they are worshipping old archaic Gods/goddesses when they are really practicing a modern day religion and their gods and goddesses which do not exist will not help them at all no matter how many bullshit spells or rituals they do that are pointless and just as bad as the rituals of Christianity that they say that they are above and so not like that religion when they are.

I think that you are quite correct......."Mythology " is what we call other peoples' religion.

And if it is really old.. it must be good.... and true.

[AdamKadmon43]

what that you wanna attack religion ???? no I got that loud and clear, I thought I would rise the level of this thread above that of a bitch fit / troll thread

If you can not grasp the fact that religion as practiced is, for the most part, totally irrational, then I suppose that our basic philosophical presuppositions are so diametrically opposed as to preclude any further discussion.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

To each in his/her own beliefs. Everyone is different. Deal wif it.
Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

If you can not grasp the fact that religion as practiced is, for the most part, totally irrational, then I suppose that our basic philosophical presuppositions are so diametrically opposed as to preclude any further discussion.

irrational by whose perception......

war is irrational in the eyes of a pacifist..... does that make all armed services personal evil and sick people ????

[Canticle]

To each in his/her own beliefs. Everyone is different. Deal wif it.
Cat

Well said Cat. What we should be concentrating on in the brief time we are allotted upon this planet, is how to live as good a life as possible and not waste it, when there is so much we can give, even in the smallest of ways.

We should follow those two commandments which Jesus gave us and follow them, nor because we may be Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Wiccan, Zoroastrian etc etc....but because those two commandments are all about love. Loving ourself and loving our fellow humans and loving this planet and finding the god within us all...that energy...that vital spark which joins each human together and joins us with the animals, the planet and the Cosmos.

We need to work to make the world a better place and and a safer place for all. We need to respect the belief or disbelief of others and put that all to one side. We are here, but for a short time. We need to make that time, the best we can......and that is all we can do.

[AdamKadmon43]

Screw it... I give up.

[Canticle]

If you can not grasp the fact that religion as practiced is, for the most part, totally irrational, then I suppose that our basic philosophical presuppositions are so diametrically opposed as to preclude any further discussion.

These, Adam, are your personal views, gleaned from all the reading you do. I know, for a fact, that religion is one of your main obsessions and seeking a spirituality, one of your main aims. However, for all the reading you do, you do not seem to have been able to use any of the knowledge picked up, to any good use. It has not helped with your spiritual quest.

You are not a theologian. You have not studied divinity and I don't think you are able to grasp the deeper meaning and understanding of belief, faith or spirituality. Unfortunately, you seem to concentrate exclusively on Christianity, when there is a multitude of other religions. I hate the way it is always Christianity which is focused upon.

You are not a Bible scholar. Anything you have learned is self taught. Now, you are a highly intelligent man...maybe too intelligent at times...and yet you appear unable to grasp what true spirituality and faith means. I've tried to explain, but you just do not understand. Methinks atheism influences your thinking sometimes and yet I know that you are not an atheist.

You need to go deeper.....much deeper and that means a journey inside your own spirit. It's a journey we make alone and along the way, learn things and gain enlightenment. It has nothing to do with a god.

People will always believe what they want to believe...or not and they will always choose to blame a god or a devil or the badness of man for the nature of man and the nature of the world. Your way of looking at things, is not an enlightened one and whilst it may rant on about the stupidity of worshipping a god, or blaming a god, or thanking a god, it does not offer any solutions. You offer no way forward, just the same lame excuses and reasons that humankind has always come up with.

It doesn't matter if there is a god or not...it is what we do as human beings, on this planet, that is important. Only we can decide what we do with the future of the human race and the planet. This decision making also goes for trying to make everyone see....no matter what their faith or lack of it may be...that we are all right and we are all wrong and so as the god within us is revealed....maybe...maybe one day, we will put things right on this beautiful world and not fight and kill and main and destroy and come together as a planet, not only when there is a natural or man made disaster. When every human being upon the earth learns to love every other human.

[Canticle]

Screw it... I give up.

And that is what you always do...in every situation.

[goldenfinger]

you have managed to totally miss my point.

Sorry, I totally missed your point too.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well said Adam.

Then you have Pagans and Wiccan people who claim that they are worshipping old archaic Gods/goddesses when they are really practicing a modern day religion and their gods and goddesses which do not exist will not help them at all no matter how many bullshit spells or rituals they do that are pointless and just as bad as the rituals of Christianity that they say that they are above and so not like that religion when they are.

since you have failed to reply to my request to define my beliefs since you slammed wiccan and I am wiccan

the old style wicca have absolutely nothing to do with the modern wicca, like dianic, gardernian etc..... cos the old style wicca has nothing to do with rituals, ceremonies and spells.....

the old style wicca, is everything to do with herbology, gardening, seasonal understanding, human nature, animal husbandry etc

now by old style wicca, I am referring to the things like the day began at sunset and finished as sunset the following day.....
hence you rested and planned the events to come at sunrise... and by the time you rise at the crack of dawn, you were prepared for the days planting, harvest etc etc......

the modern wicca draws heavily on druidism which the old style wicca has nothing to do with..... for a start, wicca had nothing to do with human sacrifices or divining the future......

the basis of old wicca is that unless you understood the seasons and the best ways to raise your crops, you starved to death, so you learnt about the seasons, you planted your crops, you raised them carefully, harvested them and preserved them well, you tended your animals and ensured that you bred the best blood lines for the best herds and that meant the best options of trade and meat........ and you learn about herbology cos if you needed medical care, you were your own doctor and nurse......

and the wicca rede stuff of as ye harm none, do as ye will....... that came for the simple knowledge, of never piss off people that could burn ya crops, kill your lifestock and shove a sword up your ass......

there was no wicca gods or goddesses....... the orginal celtic gods and goddesses of which there were over 300 .... they were the * spirits * that you asked for guidances and help .... a bit like the great spirit of the native american indians..... not the christian god.......

so as you can see, the old style wicca was simple knowledge and living.... and survival...... and that is why witchcraft is mentioned in the bible and not wicca.... as wicca was the lifestyle......

now I would perfer, that you learnt a lil more about the things you trash..... and the people you insult with your half brained accusations..... cos if you read carefully, some of the stuff on google.... you find that modern medicine, health care, counselling, gardening etc etc is all based on centuries old knowledge...... and that the world is beginning to realise that everything they laughed as and trashed as BS.... is actually the only way we are gonna survive and not fuck this world up...... and thats return to basics.....

but what would I know... I am only a person that follows a way of living and knowledge that has been around for 1000's of years.... and if its such crap..... then why it is that the world used that crap.... and survived....

maybe cos it worked.....

[void()]

"It's like you all read from the same literature and try to convince others that your view is right."

Um, isn't that exactly what any religion does? ... :/

Allow me to be a neutral here. I'm just a humanist. We're all human. We all believe according to our own individual values. On the surface there's really nothing wrong in that.
But I do understand Adam's point of view. I also understand the point of view of despising people shoveling their shit down my throat.

Both are equally valid points. There is no wrong or right to either one. Adam, from what I comprehend was commenting upon the absurdity of all religions. Hey guess what? That can also include atheism. The reason it can is because atheism can be seen as a religion about not having any.

I agree with Adam, religions are pretty absurd. I also agree with the BrotherJack incognito, each person must truly make a journey for themselves. I try to recall an adage regarding barber shops. You don't talk politics, religion, sex, and in some cases sports in them lest you want the barber to slip with the razor. Seems more and more, even here on a 'safe' site that such is the constant Way of it. Makes me real proud to be human, ya know?

[Canticle]

"It's like you all read from the same literature and try to convince others that your view is right."

Um, isn't that exactly what any religion does? ... :/

Allow me to be a neutral here. I'm just a humanist. We're all human. We all believe according to our own individual values. On the surface there's really nothing wrong in that.
But I do understand Adam's point of view. I also understand the point of view of despising people shoveling their shit down my throat.

Both are equally valid points. There is no wrong or right to either one. Adam, from what I comprehend was commenting upon the absurdity of all religions. Hey guess what? That can also include atheism. The reason it can is because atheism can be seen as a religion about not having any.

I agree with Adam, religions are pretty absurd. I also agree with the BrotherJack incognito, each person must truly make a journey for themselves. I try to recall an adage regarding barber shops. You don't talk politics, religion, sex, and in some cases sports in them lest you want the barber to slip with the razor. Seems more and more, even here on a 'safe' site that such is the constant Way of it. Makes me real proud to be human, ya know?

I agree with you and with Adam and with LDD and myself, of course. All make valid points and points to be disagreed with. Disagreement is good, for with that disagreeing, we get learning and learning takes us forwatd to a new understanding. It is to be hoped.

Sometimes the original point made, gets put without an all inclusive clause...by which, I mean, that the poster doesn't so much want to hear disagreement, but approval of what they may think. This doesn't work, because we all have different ideas....views...beliefs. What is important is to find a common ground. Take sides..Yes.....Change ones mind and swap sides.......or be somewhere in between or around the edge. Respect, by the various parties involvedi n discussion, debate, belief or disbelief in a god, of one anothers ideas.....that is what is needed.

Respect, inclusion, understanding.

We all see the play and we all take something different from the performance, but if we can bring together those differences and see the whole, the wider aspect....it's a start.

Void.....no incognito......there is no brotherjack, now.....I'm Canticle, the name suits me.....it says a lot about me and how I feel and think about
things.

Thank you for your post. It was a very thought provoking one.

[SaraSaurus]

As a christian, I thought I'd put my two cents worth in just in case anyone cares. :2cents:

The way I see things there is faith and there is religion. Faith is the relationship you have with god or buddah or krishna, or any god/goddess/person/anything that you believe in and it is a completely personal thing. Religion however has very little to do with faith. Religion is a human made thing and as there is no such thing as a perfect human, there is also no such thing as a perfect religion. I do think religion has a purpose in that it provides a community and support for people who need it.

I identify as christian because its the religion that most closely matches up with my set of beliefs. The two main messages from the bible are to love god and to love your neighbor, which simply means treating everyone with the respect and dignity they deserve as human beings. I love this message and quite honestly, consider everything else to be just fluff. But just because I like it doesn't mean its the right set of beliefs for everyone. Also, I dislike rabid bible thumpers as much as the next person but on the other hand I dislike just as much the people who stereotype and judge all christians... usually for judging and stereotyping others. Its hypocritical to say the least. You don't want christians to shove their message down your throats, please don't do the same to us.

Everyone deserves the right to their own beliefs and to not be put down for those beliefs.

[Canticle]

since you have failed to reply to my request to define my beliefs since you slammed wiccan and I am wiccan

the old style wicca have absolutely nothing to do with the modern wicca, like dianic, gardernian etc..... cos the old style wicca has nothing to do with rituals, ceremonies and spells.....

the old style wicca, is everything to do with herbology, gardening, seasonal understanding, human nature, animal husbandry etc

now by old style wicca, I am referring to the things like the day began at sunset and finished as sunset the following day.....
hence you rested and planned the events to come at sunrise... and by the time you rise at the crack of dawn, you were prepared for the days planting, harvest etc etc......

the modern wicca draws heavily on druidism which the old style wicca has nothing to do with..... for a start, wicca had nothing to do with human sacrifices or divining the future......

the basis of old wicca is that unless you understood the seasons and the best ways to raise your crops, you starved to death, so you learnt about the seasons, you planted your crops, you raised them carefully, harvested them and preserved them well, you tended your animals and ensured that you bred the best blood lines for the best herds and that meant the best options of trade and meat........ and you learn about herbology cos if you needed medical care, you were your own doctor and nurse......

and the wicca rede stuff of as ye harm none, do as ye will....... that came for the simple knowledge, of never piss off people that could burn ya crops, kill your lifestock and shove a sword up your ass......

there was no wicca gods or goddesses....... the orginal celtic gods and goddesses of which there were over 300 .... they were the * spirits * that you asked for guidances and help .... a bit like the great spirit of the native american indians..... not the christian god.......

so as you can see, the old style wicca was simple knowledge and living.... and survival...... and that is why witchcraft is mentioned in the bible and not wicca.... as wicca was the lifestyle......

now I would perfer, that you learnt a lil more about the things you trash..... and the people you insult with your half brained accusations..... cos if you read carefully, some of the stuff on google.... you find that modern medicine, health care, counselling, gardening etc etc is all based on centuries old knowledge...... and that the world is beginning to realise that everything they laughed as and trashed as BS.... is actually the only way we are gonna survive and not fuck this world up...... and thats return to basics.....

but what would I know... I am only a person that follows a way of living and knowledge that has been around for 1000's of years.... and if its such crap..... then why it is that the world used that crap.... and survived....

maybe cos it worked.....


Very well put LDD

[DogoJosho]

Adam.... 1.2.... FUCK YOU

people are religous (like me myself) because they've SEEN the power of they're god. You CLEARLY havnt seen powers if tleast 1 god.

They know why god can't stop the earthquaks and sutch. Ever heard of people having enemys? Ya.... The enemys stop god from stopping since human nature has everyone atleast a little evil which let's enemys in.

So ya. I'm done.

[darkeyes]

Screw it... I give up.

Dus luff peeps who lack courage a ther convictions..stir pot then leave it on gas to burn house down.. mite rite in way ya don like Adam.. but least don run off like scared lil wabbit wen the goin gets tuff...

..as me keeps sayin.. Man created God in 'is own image...:) But then thats jus my belief.. othas think diff.. gud luk 2 'em.. wen me snuffs it mite jus gerra shock wen me wakes up dead an finds out me wos rong.. jus don happen 2 think so...:)

[Giggles100]

There is no god.... it's all a load of bullcrap invented to make selfish human beings feel more important than they are :bigrin:.

[Darkside2009]

People, throughout history, have built there homes on flood plains and in the shadows of volcanos for the simple reason that the ground is very fertile there.

They accepted the risks of flooding or eruption, sometimes to their cost. Pompey was destroyed when Vesuvius erupted, burying its inhabitants in a blanket of ash.

The Greek Island of Santorini,(Thera),is the flooded caldera of a massive volcano that exploded thousands of years ago, leading to the demise of the Minoan Civilisation on neighbouring Crete. The devastation suffered in New Orleans... History is littered with examples.

All of these in their turn had been cited as examples of proof, either that God did not exist, or that he did not care about Humanity.

Yet people throughout history have held such strong beliefs in God that it has given them the courage to face death by burning at the stake or beheading or torture, rather than retract those beliefs.

Stonewall Jackson got his nickname from his unflinching courage in the face of the enemy. However it was his religious faith that led to his belief, that God would not take him before his time, that gave rise to that courage and by example instilled the moral of the troops serving with him.

Even in modern times this effect is still recognised hence the use of Chaplains and other Religious leaders in the Services.

There are those of course, who have misused religion for their own ends, but this has inevitably led to a backlash of sentiment. One need only think of the selling of Papal indulgences that led to Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.

To those that believe in God, the evidence for his existence is all around them. In the beauty of Nature, in every tree, flower and animal. In the beauty of a Sunset, in the kindness of a stranger, in the joyful laughter of children.

A rose in itself serves no useful purpose, it is only decorative. Yet it has a beauty and perfume prized beyond others, evidence perhaps of a beneficent Creator, one that gives more than he has to to fulfill a function.

To those that do not believe in God, there will never be enough evidence, except perhaps, the nearness of their own demise.

To those that believe, may your God go with you. To those that do not, enjoy your life and the beauty around you as much as you are able.

[Darkside2009]

People, throughout history, have built there homes on flood plains and in the shadows of volcanos for the simple reason that the ground is very fertile there.

They accepted the risks of flooding or eruption, sometimes to their cost. Pompey was destroyed when Vesuvius erupted, burying its inhabitants in a blanket of ash.

The Greek Island of Santorini,(Thera),is the flooded caldera of a massive volcano that exploded thousands of years ago, leading to the demise of the Minoan Civilisation on neighbouring Crete. The devastation suffered in New Orleans... History is littered with examples.

All of these in their turn had been cited as examples of proof, either that God did not exist, or that he did not care about Humanity.

Yet people throughout history have held such strong beliefs in God that it has given them the courage to face death by burning at the stake or beheading or torture, rather than retract those beliefs.

Stonewall Jackson got his nickname from his unflinching courage in the face of the enemy. However it was his religious faith that led to his belief, that God would not take him before his time, that gave rise to that courage and by example instilled the moral of the troops serving with him.

Even in modern times this effect is still recognised hence the use of Chaplains and other Religious leaders in the Services.

There are those of course, who have misused religion for their own ends, but this has inevitably led to a backlash of sentiment. One need only think of the selling of Papal indulgences that led to Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.

To those that believe in God, the evidence for his existence is all around them. In the beauty of Nature, in every tree, flower and animal. In the beauty of a Sunset, in the kindness of a stranger, in the joyful laughter of children.

A rose in itself serves no useful purpose, it is only decorative. Yet it has a beauty and perfume prized beyond others, evidence perhaps of a beneficent Creator, one that gives more than he has to to fulfill a function.

To those that do not believe in God, there will never be enough evidence, except perhaps, the nearness of their own demise.

To those that believe, may your God go with you. To those that do not, enjoy your life and the beauty around you as much as you are able.

[darkeyes]

There is no god.... it's all a load of bullcrap invented to make selfish human beings feel more important than they are :bigrin:.
....actually hun..think God wos invented for quite the opposite reason.. it not the only reason but is 1.. 2 cut us down 2 size an stop us feelin that we r the gr8est thing since sliced bread.. an that ther can b no stoppin us.. :rolleyes:

.. e' wos also invented 2 help a few hold sway ova the many.. but wile me mite agree that its alla a loada twaddle.. an this is our 1 stab at life..an wen we die..thats it..oblivion.. don decry wiv such contempt the beliefs as othas... yas talkin much as the religious rite talk.. the extreme jihadists a Islam.. wiv a certainty an intolerance that excludes all otha beliefs as worthy a respect.. me has a certainty sure, but equally me has a respect for wot peeps believe, an only lose that respect wen they show themsels..2 me at least..unworthy of it..:)

[darkeyes]

People, throughout history, have built there homes on flood plains and in the shadows of volcanos for the simple reason that the ground is very fertile there.

They accepted the risks of flooding or eruption, sometimes to their cost. Pompey was destroyed when Vesuvius erupted, burying its inhabitants in a blanket of ash.

The Greek Island of Santorini,(Thera),is the flooded caldera of a massive volcano that exploded thousands of years ago, leading to the demise of the Minoan Civilisation on neighbouring Crete. The devastation suffered in New Orleans... History is littered with examples.

All of these in their turn had been cited as examples of proof, either that God did not exist, or that he did not care about Humanity.

Yet people throughout history have held such strong beliefs in God that it has given them the courage to face death by burning at the stake or beheading or torture, rather than retract those beliefs.

Stonewall Jackson got his nickname from his unflinching courage in the face of the enemy. However it was his religious faith that led to his belief, that God would not take him before his time, that gave rise to that courage and by example instilled the moral of the troops serving with him.

Even in modern times this effect is still recognised hence the use of Chaplains and other Religious leaders in the Services.

There are those of course, who have misused religion for their own ends, but this has inevitably led to a backlash of sentiment. One need only think of the selling of Papal indulgences that led to Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.

To those that believe in God, the evidence for his existence is all around them. In the beauty of Nature, in every tree, flower and animal. In the beauty of a Sunset, in the kindness of a stranger, in the joyful laughter of children.

A rose in itself serves no useful purpose, it is only decorative. Yet it has a beauty and perfume prized beyond others, evidence perhaps of a beneficent Creator, one that gives more than he has to to fulfill a function.

To those that do not believe in God, there will never be enough evidence, except perhaps, the nearness of their own demise.

To those that believe, may your God go with you. To those that do not, enjoy your life and the beauty around you as much as you are able.

A rose serves a gr8a purpose than ya seem 2 think Darkside, hun... it helps wiv the survival a the insects wich we rely on for our own survival..the pollinators.. principally but not exclusively bees.. also feeds wot we term as pests by the trillion.. yet those same pests feed many animals an birds wich we rely on for our own wellbein...jus like many otha flowers an plants hav such a purpose. If ther is a God the rose, like the bee, is surely 1a his wondas.. don happen 2 believe in 'im..or 'er..or it. Everythin serves a purpose.. we may not always know jus wot it is.. but creation.. omnipotent bein or natural unaided wonda.. is surely sumthin 2 behold.. we r contemptuous an dismissive of its wondas at our peril...:)

[rdy2go]

Man, I have to laugh. If ya wanna rile up the people, mention religion or sexuality. I'm not a religious guy, but it bugs me that people who don't believe in a god or a monkey or a whatever, spend time complaining that the religious folks crap on them because they don't believe, then first chance they get they crap on the religious folks because they do! Which prompts the religious folks to throw more crap back, prompting the non religious throw even more crap, and so on and so on, and so on. It's all so funny!

The debate rages on. lol!

[rissababynta]

I say that people should believe what they want to believe and what makes them happy and whole and just worry about themselves. LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE ALONE! If you believe that abortion is murder (because of God or otherwise) you don't have to go out with signs harassing people about it as if that is going to do anything. I don't like protesters, you don't see me out there protesting protesters. Sheesh.

There are always going to be things in life that we like and things in life that we don't like. It doesn't mean that any human being has the right to take away another persons happiness just to enhance their own.

That being said, I am pagan, and I've heard it all. I know what I believe and it makes me happy and ignorant people aren't going to change that for me. Therefore, I have no comment and I refuse to play into THAT game again. I compromise my happiness for no one.

[Canticle]

Man, I have to laugh. If ya wanna rile up the people, mention religion or sexuality. I'm not a religious guy, but it bugs me that people who don't believe in a god or a monkey or a whatever, spend time complaining that the religious folks crap on them because they don't believe, then first chance they get they crap on the religious folks because they do! Which prompts the religious folks to throw more crap back, prompting the non religious throw even more crap, and so on and so on, and so on. It's all so funny!

The debate rages on. lol!

Only religion and sexuality? Hmmmm....reckon there are a lot of subjects one could throw on the embers of a fire, to get a good blaze started.

I think there have been some very good posts, thus far, all with much merit. I actually like it, when I am able to say....'yeah'....'great post'....'thought provoking'....'said it all for me'..'don't need to add anything else at the moment.'

There have been a lot of posts like that......and the thread has remained reasonably polite. If we can all take something from one anothers posts.....now that would be really great.

[darkeyes]

I don't like protesters, you don't see me out there protesting protesters. Sheesh.

Fwan pwotests a lot.. bout lotsa things.. on marches.. picketin..all sortsa pwotest.. an now Wis don wuff me ne mowe... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa:yikes2::(

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Religions and politics....it can rile up folks in a heartbeat. Everyone has their own belief system and ways of view, and its wrong to have someone try and shove Their views down the throats of those who dont want it.:rolleyes:

Natural disasters are going to happen. An Earthquake cant be stopped, its a scientific fact. A hurricane or twister Can be predicted, and something can be done about those, but other forms of natural diasters oft times cannot. It has nothng to do with God and the Spirits pointing a finger and going, "Be gone" to those in a tiny country somewhere.
Its going to happen, and has been occuring alot more lately. There will always be volcano's, earthquakes, tidal waves, and people getting killed. Its nature, its life, and life happens. All people can truly control in their lives is how they believe in Their belief system.....no matter what type it be.
Spirits bless, ya'll.
Cat

[Karasel]

I'm Agnostic, so I can be a bit unbiased for this discussion.

As for the first point that AdamKadmon43 brought up in this thread about people blaming God for disasters, and then praising him for sparing them; I believe that if one believes in a traditional God like the Christian God, than one must believe in God's "tough love." In that he must provide us with pain and suffering to teach us lessons and prevent us from being spoiled. Without natural disasters, death, sickness, disease and malice we would just be living in a perfect world where nothing would get done, there would be no way to test our faith, thus causing us to take God for advantage.

That being said I just can't help but roll my eyes when people say things like "The disaster at Haiti is all because they are a bunch of satanists who made the pact with the Devil.." Which I have heard people say. Who are they to presume to know WHY if at all that country was chosen, and to say something as heartless as that makes my blood boil..

People do tend to lose their sensibilities when it does come to organized religion. Saying that we must love all as our neighbor, then they'll say how much they hate "gays, Mexicans and Jews," and believe that the world would be a better place if California fell into the ocean. In my experience people who take their religion and muddle it with their own personal agendas aren't really following whatever religion they claim to belong to. They are just posers who like to see themselves as a spiritual person.

But I have meet some people who take their religion seriously and don't take things to the extremes or misinterpret its teachings.

But I am getting off topic, so I will stop here.

Take care, all.

[rissababynta]

Fwan pwotests a lot.. bout lotsa things.. on marches.. picketin..all sortsa pwotest.. an now Wis don wuff me ne mowe... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa:yikes2::(

Ok, let me rephrase...I don't like protesters when they are protesting haha. I still love you Franni sugar pie honey bunch ;-)

[crazy_cat_lady]

I just wanna put my :2cents: in as well.

As a christian I believe that god works in curcumstance(sp?)...okay let me explain.

I was reading a Touched by an angel crossover fanfic oneday. I was reading a scene where an angel was invisable and watching a guy get tortured by the guys enemy. The angel asked god if he could help him out and god told him to wait.

Now I thought to myself, as many do, "Why isn't god helping him? Why is he letting this guy suffer?"

Then in the next scene another guy rescued him and later ended up with him because of that very scene.

Thats when it hit me...God works in curcumstances. meaning He could not help the guy being tortured because it was the free will of the guy torturing him. But to over come this god used curcumstance, by puttting the other guy in the postition to rescue him.

It's what I like to call the ripple effect. One tiny thing sets off a huge chain of events that eventually leads back to the effected person. Thats how he works.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. :bigrin:

[AdamKadmon43]

It was not my intent to start a discussion on the existence or non-existence of god. I do not know whether or not a creator god exists, nor do I care. I believe that to be unknowable and therefore irrelevant. Neither was it my intent to insult anyone's religious beliefs. That sort of thing can get you killed these days.

It was merely my intent to point out something that I would think would be clearly obvious with any thought about it at all. In terms of what humans conceive to be good and evil, the god of monotheism is evil and therefore not deserving of praise or worship. If you believe in such a god, you might be well advised to be scared shitless of him, but you probably should not be going about kissing his ass and proclaiming him to be good and loving. No good and loving god would allow such misery and suffering to befall his creations.

Most humans would probably not allow a child to starve to death if they could prevent it. But god does it.... All the time... all over the world.

There is a very interesting book on this subject titled "God's Problem" by religious scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman. It addresses this issue in far greater depth than can be done in here.

[AdamKadmon43]

......I hope I didn't confuse anyone. :bigrin:

You sure as hell confused ME.

What does "free will" have to do with earthquakes and malaria???

[AdamKadmon43]

......I identify as christian because its the religion that most closely matches up with my set of beliefs...

I would just about be willing to bet that you identify as christian because it it is what you were brought up with and taught to believe.

[AdamKadmon43]

Adam.... 1.2.... FUCK YOU

people are religous (like me myself) because they've SEEN the power of they're god. You CLEARLY havnt seen powers if tleast 1 god.

They know why god can't stop the earthquaks and sutch. Ever heard of people having enemys? Ya.... The enemys stop god from stopping since human nature has everyone atleast a little evil which let's enemys in.

So ya. I'm done.

That doesn't even make any sense.

[AdamKadmon43]

Yes. It is. That was my point. Adam's religion is anti-theism. It has a doctrine. And he tries to push it on others. Just like every proselytizing atheist I've ever met.

The sad thing is, that he is incapable of seeing the irony.

Pasa

You pre-suppose too much. I am NOT an atheist. I just simply do not believe in a personal god directly involved in the affairs of humans. In such a vast and complex Universe as we appear to exist in, that seems to me to be a rather arrogrant and absurd over-simplication of the nature of things.

[AdamKadmon43]

Religions and politics....it can rile up folks in a heartbeat. Everyone has their own belief system and ways of view, and its wrong to have someone try and shove Their views down the throats of those who dont want it.:rolleyes:

Natural disasters are going to happen. An Earthquake cant be stopped, its a scientific fact. A hurricane or twister Can be predicted, and something can be done about those, but other forms of natural diasters oft times cannot. It has nothng to do with God and the Spirits pointing a finger and going, "Be gone" to those in a tiny country somewhere.
Its going to happen, and has been occuring alot more lately. There will always be volcano's, earthquakes, tidal waves, and people getting killed. Its nature, its life, and life happens. All people can truly control in their lives is how they believe in Their belief system.....no matter what type it be.
Spirits bless, ya'll.
Cat

Yes, you are quite correct, but my point was that an omnipotent god should be capable of preventing such things, should he not? And if he can prevent such things and does not then he is evil, and not deserving of worship or praise.

[AdamKadmon43]

.....one must believe in God's "tough love." In that he must provide us with pain and suffering to teach us lessons and prevent us from being spoiled.....

Take care, all.

Read the Old Testament Book of Job, and then be so kind as to explain to me what "lesson" he was being taught.

[Long Duck Dong]

Yes, you are quite correct, but my point was that an omnipotent god should be capable of preventing such things, should he not? And if he can prevent such things and does not then he is evil, and not deserving of worship or praise.


perception is everything.... ignorance is a large part of it

without hurricane katrina, new orleans and other places would have not be hammered and devastated, we would not know that badly the us goverment has handled the matter, we would not know how many people would move heaven and earth to aid and assist the people, we would not know about the scammers and criminals that would use the disaster to line their own pockets,
we would not know that the us government has more intention of warring, than looking other its own people... we would not know the lengths that the human race would go to for people in need.....

without disasters, we would not need to have charities, aid organisations, relief funds, fema, etc etc, we would not need to feel support and caring, the need to give, and assist and aid others...... to travel to places and help others in need..... to question if we are being selfish or caring as a human race.....

disasters bring out the best and the worst in people.... and show the world those that care and those that don't.......

that is why god doesn't interfere ...... cos knowledge is something the human race needs, and disasters are a way of showing the world that knowledge......

yes people are injured and die in disasters..... but people have the ability to make the right decisions and the wrong decisions and the results of those decisions are the tragic deaths that we see......

to blame god for the * needless* deaths of many people.... is to also blame god for the natural deaths of many people..... and without death, we have no understanding of how valuable life is...... how much people mean to us and how lost we are without the ones we love and cherish so much.....

god doesn't create disasters to punish us, we punish ourselves and others more then enuf without gods help in that area.... but nor does god stop disasters for without them, we would become one very narrow minded, self centered human race.......

so instead of attacking god for the disasters how about you look at the result if we did not have disasters and maybe your eyes will open a lil more

[Karasel]

Agreed, to pretty much all of what LDD just said.

[AdamKadmon43]

....actually hun..think God wos invented for quite the opposite reason.. it not the only reason but is 1.. 2 cut us down 2 size an stop us feelin that we r the gr8est thing since sliced bread.. an that ther can b no stoppin us.. :rolleyes:

.. e' wos also invented 2 help a few hold sway ova the many.. but wile me mite agree that its alla a loada twaddle.. an this is our 1 stab at life..an wen we die..thats it..oblivion.. don decry wiv such contempt the beliefs as othas... yas talkin much as the religious rite talk.. the extreme jihadists a Islam.. wiv a certainty an intolerance that excludes all otha beliefs as worthy a respect.. me has a certainty sure, but equally me has a respect for wot peeps believe, an only lose that respect wen they show themsels..2 me at least..unworthy of it..:)

I rarely ever agree with you on much of anything.... And I am never exactly certain that I understand everything that you are saying. But none the less, I still find you to be one of the more intelligent and informed and astute people that I have ever encountered.

[AdamKadmon43]

perception is everything.... ignorance is a large part of it

without hurricane katrina, new orleans and other places would have not be hammered and devastated, we would not know that badly the us goverment has handled the matter, we would not know how many people would move heaven and earth to aid and assist the people, we would not know about the scammers and criminals that would use the disaster to line their own pockets,
we would not know that the us government has more intention of warring, than looking other its own people... we would not know the lengths that the human race would go to for people in need.....

without disasters, we would not need to have charities, aid organisations, relief funds, fema, etc etc, we would not need to feel support and caring, the need to give, and assist and aid others...... to travel to places and help others in need..... to question if we are being selfish or caring as a human race.....

disasters bring out the best and the worst in people.... and show the world those that care and those that don't.......

that is why god doesn't interfere ...... cos knowledge is something the human race needs, and disasters are a way of showing the world that knowledge......

yes people are injured and die in disasters..... but people have the ability to make the right decisions and the wrong decisions and the results of those decisions are the tragic deaths that we see......

to blame god for the * needless* deaths of many people.... is to also blame god for the natural deaths of many people..... and without death, we have no understanding of how valuable life is...... how much people mean to us and how lost we are without the ones we love and cherish so much.....

god doesn't create disasters to punish us, we punish ourselves and others more then enuf without gods help in that area.... but nor does god stop disasters for without them, we would become one very narrow minded, self centered human race.......

so instead of attacking god for the disasters how about you look at the result if we did not have disasters and maybe your eyes will open a lil more

This just might possibly be the most dramatic example of circular reasoning that I have ever seen in here.

[AdamKadmon43]

I am becoming increasingly convinced that people really don't believe all the crap that they profess to believe.

If I really believed all that stuff, I would accidently walk in front of a fast moving truck and get on outta here and go be with Jesus or Allah or whatever.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ya know, its amazing. You Knew that this topic would stir up alot of things, yet you did it knowing full well that it would. And you got your 15 minutes. So there ya go.
Cat

[TwylaTwobits]

I stayed out of this thread for awhile......now I feel the need to respond.

Adam, I don't know you, I'm not gonna lie and say I haven't heard about you, though. I am Wiccan. I am not modern, I follow the older ways that have existed since this world began. I am interested in herbology and homeopathic remedies, I live my life to the best of my ability, at times answering things that are set for me to do.

But to claim that the only God you know of is a vengeful God. That's just untrue, yes Job was tested. But did you actually read the Book of Job to know that it was "Satan" who did the testing and was allowed to by God to prove the worth of humanity?

All you have to do is read John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

That is a vengeful God? No that is a loving God. Every so called vengeful act that has been laid at God's door was done for the love of humanity.

My way of belief regards my Goddess, the earth and it's animals and humans as all in need of caring for. And I further believe that we all have the same presence we worship. We just know them differently, ie my Goddess is Canticles God, and other people's Allah and Buddha and Krishna. But even if you believe in nothing you have a belief...in nothing.

So apparently you think that it's all science and evolution. Then science can explain to you that things happen for no apparent reason in the real world. Even this last tragedy in Haiti can be viewed by some as "population control".

[Canticle]

I stayed out of this thread for awhile......now I feel the need to respond.

Adam, I don't know you, I'm not gonna lie and say I haven't heard about you, though. I am Wiccan. I am not modern, I follow the older ways that have existed since this world began. I am interested in herbology and homeopathic remedies, I live my life to the best of my ability, at times answering things that are set for me to do.

But to claim that the only God you know of is a vengeful God. That's just untrue, yes Job was tested. But did you actually read the Book of Job to know that it was "Satan" who did the testing and was allowed to by God to prove the worth of humanity?

All you have to do is read John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

That is a vengeful God? No that is a loving God. Every so called vengeful act that has been laid at God's door was done for the love of humanity.

My way of belief regards my Goddess, the earth and it's animals and humans as all in need of caring for. And I further believe that we all have the same presence we worship. We just know them differently, ie my Goddess is Canticles God, and other people's Allah and Buddha and Krishna. But even if you believe in nothing you have a belief...in nothing.

So apparently you think that it's all science and evolution. Then science can explain to you that things happen for no apparent reason in the real world. Even this last tragedy in Haiti can be viewed by some as "population control".

gee....I'm gonna need a redundancy pay out. No need to answer your post Twyla......you have said so many things, which I would say. Thank you

[FalconAngel]

I have been looking through this thread and I see a lot of lack of understanding of religion, particularly by some who have been making claims about religious paths to which they have a particular animosity for or a complete lack of understanding in. This is a common problem among many monotheists and Atheists
Most Atheists are hostile towards all religions and very specifically towards the monotheistic and/or fundamentalist religious paths; in those cases, I have to agree with some of their reasoning, but not all, not by a long shot.

Then you have the folks that are hostile to religions that they either have no real experience and have succomb to the propaganda.

Now, the real problem with this thread is that there is the presumption of a few things.

The most dangerous and misguided of beliefs is that all religions operate like right wing dominion Christianity and Islam. Only monotheistic religions and cults of personality tend to operate like that, but not all do.

The folks that do make those presumptions have filled their minds with false impressions, and when the mind is full of crap, one can not fill it with anything else, not even truth.

We need, all of us, to understand that there is a real difference between thinking that you know and knowing the actual facts. The best examples of this are found in cults of personality and far right wing religious groups like the WBC and the "congregations" of the likes of Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson and similar religious extremists.

Factually, these issues would all but disappear if we would all recognize that our religious paths are only right for us, not necessarily for others.

A religion should be about enhancing your spiritual understanding of the world and your own place in it. It should never be used to control or influence others in a way that places control over the actions or spiritual beliefs of others.


Long Duck; You do not know Gardnerian or other BTW mystery/oathbound religions so much as you may think.
Being a Pagan does not let anyone in on the oathbound mysteries of them nor the histories of them.
I am an initiated Gardnerian Priest, so when I speak of it, I am speaking from a position of some authority and knowledge.
Knowledge that I can research with other, higher degree'd and educated Gardnerians with more combined experience in the Craft than possibly anyone else on this list might be able to muster. More than 150 years combined experience, to be precise, and most of those people are highly degree'd (and sometimes published authors) in various scholastic/scientific fields.
So if I have something wrong, or if you think I do, I can verify any beliefs that contradict what you believe is known, with sources.

We are oathbound, but without revealing any of the oathbound information I will enlighten you on some basics of BTW:

1. We do not worship our gods in the way that most people worship any gods. We are not fluffy in the least (for the largest part).

2. We are the Preisthood of the old gods, not the general populus of Paganism.

3. In the old days, when Witchcraft was practiced in areas without Christianity (or the craft was practiced in secret), we would have been the ones running the rituals. We have lineages that prove those facts, if you ask the Alexandrian, Gardnerian, Blue Star and other initiates on the internet, they will tell you the same.

4. All of BTW Wicca is born of the covens in the New Forest region of England.

5. Yes, we are a new religion, but unlike the modern eclectic religions, we practice things in accordance with our religion. We have no "doctrine" and we are not orthodoxic, but we are orthopraxic.

6. Other Pagans and many neo-Wiccans dislike us because we do not share our oathbound material with everyone and their brothers, sister, cousins and Aunt Fanny's. BTW is neither the first, nor the only initiatory or oathbound religion.

7. We do tend to police our own better than Christianity and Islam do there own. When we find an initiate is no longer a proper person, we let people know that through a "vetting" process where others can either vouch for them or let one know that the person is a proper person within our traditions or not.

8. We do not do like the Correllians do. We do wear the flashy degree badges, different colored robes for our different degrees, nor do we charge to teach. We also do not believe that ours is the only valid path for anyone and we do not consider ourselves superior to others, no matter what the Correllians and some eclectics claim.

LDD, if you are really interested in the facts about BTW initiate paths, in better detail, contact me off list and I can give you the info for a seeker's list for BTW Craft. All of our mods are 3rd's with more than 150 years of combined experience in BTW.

[Long Duck Dong]

This just might possibly be the most dramatic example of circular reasoning that I have ever seen in here.

simple logic and open mindedness adam.....

we can not define things without the means and events to define them.....

how can we define the nature of charity without a reason to be charitable and to give to others

[rdy2go]

the debate rages on ... over and over again. Here's a thought on the question of gods existence or an after life, or a whatever. The only way to really find out the truth is to permanently become ..DEAD! I don't know about the rest of ya, but, I'm in no big hurry to find out! I plan on sticking it out above the sod for as long as I can!

[Long Duck Dong]

Long Duck; You do not know Gardnerian or other BTW mystery/oathbound religions so much as you may think.
Being a Pagan does not let anyone in on the oathbound mysteries of them nor the histories of them.
I am an initiated Gardnerian Priest, so when I speak of it, I am speaking from a position of some authority and knowledge.
Knowledge that I can research with other, higher degree'd and educated Gardnerians with more combined experience in the Craft than possibly anyone else on this list might be able to muster. More than 150 years combined experience, to be precise, and most of those people are highly degree'd (and sometimes published authors) in various scholastic/scientific fields.
So if I have something wrong, or if you think I do, I can verify any beliefs that contradict what you believe is known, with sources.

We are oathbound, but without revealing any of the oathbound information I will enlighten you on some basics of BTW:

1. We do not worship our gods in the way that most people worship any gods. We are not fluffy in the least (for the largest part).

2. We are the Preisthood of the old gods, not the general populus of Paganism.

3. In the old days, when Witchcraft was practiced in areas without Christianity (or the craft was practiced in secret), we would have been the ones running the rituals. We have lineages that prove those facts, if you ask the Alexandrian, Gardnerian, Blue Star and other initiates on the internet, they will tell you the same.

4. All of BTW Wicca is born of the covens in the New Forest region of England.

5. Yes, we are a new religion, but unlike the modern eclectic religions, we practice things in accordance with our religion. We have no "doctrine" and we are not orthodoxic, but we are orthopraxic.

6. Other Pagans and many neo-Wiccans dislike us because we do not share our oathbound material with everyone and their brothers, sister, cousins and Aunt Fanny's. BTW is neither the first, nor the only initiatory or oathbound religion.

7. We do tend to police our own better than Christianity and Islam do there own. When we find an initiate is no longer a proper person, we let people know that through a "vetting" process where others can either vouch for them or let one know that the person is a proper person within our traditions or not.

8. We do not do like the Correllians do. We do wear the flashy degree badges, different colored robes for our different degrees, nor do we charge to teach. We also do not believe that ours is the only valid path for anyone and we do not consider ourselves superior to others, no matter what the Correllians and some eclectics claim.

LDD, if you are really interested in the facts about BTW initiate paths, in better detail, contact me off list and I can give you the info for a seeker's list for BTW Craft. All of our mods are 3rd's with more than 150 years of combined experience in BTW.

I agree, I do not know much about the dianic and gardernian wicca

what I am gonna say is gonna say rude and disrepectful.... its not in any way that at all..... and not intended to appear that way... but its gonna come out that way

I have no desire to be involved with them....
rituals, ceremonies, cloaks, secrets etc do not interest me.... and nor do i need or require a rank in a cove.....

to me... wicca is a free and open way of being.... not a closed and controlled faith or way of being..... it defeats the purpose....

to make my garden grow, i need to be close to the earth and the elements, for that is the magick of life.....
sitting with my friends and enjoying their diverse nature, is for me the magick of humanity.....
enjoying the warmth of the sun, and the light, the glow of the moon and the darkness of the shadows is the magick of the duality....

that to me is wicca.... natural magick.... natural beauty.....

no disrepect to any other wicca faith or belief..... but if its not naturally occuring for me and a natural part of me..... then its not wicca as I understand it

[AdamKadmon43]

Ya know, its amazing. You Knew that this topic would stir up alot of things, yet you did it knowing full well that it would.

YES

You are quite correct. I did it for exactly that purpose. So what is your point?


And you got your 15 minutes. So there ya go.


and NO

I don't need any 15 minutes. At least not in here. There are plenty of places I can go and get more than 15 minutes. Unfortunately... they involve taking my clothes off.

[AdamKadmon43]

the debate rages on ... over and over again. Here's a thought on the question of gods existence or an after life, or a whatever. The only way to really find out the truth is to permanently become ..DEAD! I don't know about the rest of ya, but, I'm in no big hurry to find out! I plan on sticking it out above the sod for as long as I can!

Please read the previous posts.

This is NOT about the existence of god ... or an afterlife.

This is about the philosophical approach to religious belief. It is about the fundamental core ideas that (hopefully) define our thoughts. It is about having a whole bunch of little boxes in our heads ... each of which contain contradictary ideas and which do not communicate very well with each other.

[Canticle]

YES

You are quite correct. I did it for exactly that purpose. So what is your point?



and NO

I don't need any 15 minutes. At least not in here. There are plenty of places I can go and get more than 15 minutes. Unfortunately... they involve taking my clothes off.


Seen one....seen them all......lol......................

[AdamKadmon43]

I have been looking through this thread and I see a lot of lack of understanding of religion, particularly by some who have been making claims about religious paths to which they have a particular animosity for or a complete lack of understanding in. This is a common problem among many monotheists and Atheists
Most Atheists are hostile towards all religions and very specifically towards the monotheistic and/or fundamentalist religious paths; in those cases, I have to agree with some of their reasoning, but not all, not by a long shot.

Then you have the folks that are hostile to religions that they either have no real experience and have succomb to the propaganda.

Now, the real problem with this thread is that there is the presumption of a few things.

The most dangerous and misguided of beliefs is that all religions operate like right wing dominion Christianity and Islam. Only monotheistic religions and cults of personality tend to operate like that, but not all do.

The folks that do make those presumptions have filled their minds with false impressions, and when the mind is full of crap, one can not fill it with anything else, not even truth.

We need, all of us, to understand that there is a real difference between thinking that you know and knowing the actual facts. The best examples of this are found in cults of personality and far right wing religious groups like the WBC and the "congregations" of the likes of Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson and similar religious extremists.

Factually, these issues would all but disappear if we would all recognize that our religious paths are only right for us, not necessarily for others.

A religion should be about enhancing your spiritual understanding of the world and your own place in it. It should never be used to control or influence others in a way that places control over the actions or spiritual beliefs of others.


Long Duck; You do not know Gardnerian or other BTW mystery/oathbound religions so much as you may think.
Being a Pagan does not let anyone in on the oathbound mysteries of them nor the histories of them.
I am an initiated Gardnerian Priest, so when I speak of it, I am speaking from a position of some authority and knowledge.
Knowledge that I can research with other, higher degree'd and educated Gardnerians with more combined experience in the Craft than possibly anyone else on this list might be able to muster. More than 150 years combined experience, to be precise, and most of those people are highly degree'd (and sometimes published authors) in various scholastic/scientific fields.
So if I have something wrong, or if you think I do, I can verify any beliefs that contradict what you believe is known, with sources.

We are oathbound, but without revealing any of the oathbound information I will enlighten you on some basics of BTW:

1. We do not worship our gods in the way that most people worship any gods. We are not fluffy in the least (for the largest part).

2. We are the Preisthood of the old gods, not the general populus of Paganism.

3. In the old days, when Witchcraft was practiced in areas without Christianity (or the craft was practiced in secret), we would have been the ones running the rituals. We have lineages that prove those facts, if you ask the Alexandrian, Gardnerian, Blue Star and other initiates on the internet, they will tell you the same.

4. All of BTW Wicca is born of the covens in the New Forest region of England.

5. Yes, we are a new religion, but unlike the modern eclectic religions, we practice things in accordance with our religion. We have no "doctrine" and we are not orthodoxic, but we are orthopraxic.

6. Other Pagans and many neo-Wiccans dislike us because we do not share our oathbound material with everyone and their brothers, sister, cousins and Aunt Fanny's. BTW is neither the first, nor the only initiatory or oathbound religion.

7. We do tend to police our own better than Christianity and Islam do there own. When we find an initiate is no longer a proper person, we let people know that through a "vetting" process where others can either vouch for them or let one know that the person is a proper person within our traditions or not.

8. We do not do like the Correllians do. We do wear the flashy degree badges, different colored robes for our different degrees, nor do we charge to teach. We also do not believe that ours is the only valid path for anyone and we do not consider ourselves superior to others, no matter what the Correllians and some eclectics claim.

LDD, if you are really interested in the facts about BTW initiate paths, in better detail, contact me off list and I can give you the info for a seeker's list for BTW Craft. All of our mods are 3rd's with more than 150 years of combined experience in BTW.

Please make note of the fact that, at the out set of all this, I specifically cited monotheism as being the problamatic factor. I have no quarrel with you or your beliefs.

[Canticle]

Please read the previous posts.

This is NOT about the existence of god ... or an afterlife.

This is about the philosophical approach to religious belief. It is about the fundamental core ideas that (hopefully) define our thoughts. It is about having a whole bunch of little boxes in our heads each of which contain contradictary ideas and which do not communicate with each other.

Smiles...the heck it is about any philosophical approach.....it's the Adam road show....lol

I thought most of the people posting were communicating quite nicely. Don't get all bothered and get your knickers in a twist. NO....don't you dare answer that....lol

[AdamKadmon43]

Dus luff peeps who lack courage a ther convictions..stir pot then leave it on gas to burn house down.. mite rite in way ya don like Adam.. but least don run off like scared lil wabbit wen the goin gets tuff...



I hope that you are happy now.... I managed to stay and face the issues and not let the house burn down.... or whatever it was that you said.

[tenni]

"The most dangerous and misguided of beliefs is that all religions operate like right wing dominion Christianity and Islam."

Falcon
I am wondering if you meant radical Islam (or extremist Islam)? Certainly, you would not be defending your own beliefs at the expense of condemning all Muslims as being dangerous and misguided? Otherwise, it was an interesting read.

[Long Duck Dong]

Very well said.

What is not so surprising is that people believe in religions and spiritualities and they do not even realize that compared to the original formats of these spiritualities and religions have changed so much that they are no longer like they originally were and never will be.

The same goes for any religious/spiritual rituals, books/texts, or other aspects in the spirituality and religion and it is like this for ALL spirtualities and religions including Paganism and Wicca which are really very modern day religions like LongDuck, Falcon, and Twyla have wrote about just how and why they are very modern.

ok so my great grand mother was taught something that never existed at the time, by her mother, and taught my mother and myself, so i learnt something that was only recent, but the books and scrolls I have that were printed in the 18th century, do not exist

now if you are gonna do the whole wicca never existed before the 1930-1950's. please explain the following

cos I am sure that doctor who did not lend out his tardis.... so please enlighten me about how it is I was taught something that I can date beck thru the family for at least 13 generations... if it did not exist, and read books such as the Gospel of the Witches by Charles G. Leland printed in 1899 of which I have a copy...... which talks about things that supposedly didn't exist for another 30-50 years

or are you gonna be like the rest of the nay sayers... that will ignore the facts that there are written / printed records of aspects of wicca, BEFORE modern wicca exist...... and just continue to post that its crap and show the rest of us that you can not back up anything you say.... you just like to see your name on a post......

[FalconAngel]

simple logic and open mindedness adam.....

we can not define things without the means and events to define them.....

how can we define the nature of charity without a reason to be charitable and to give to others

Well said.

One cannot know what is good without knowing what is evil. we have to have thing and experiences to make our judgments by in order to compare one to the other.

[FalconAngel]

I agree, I do not know much about the dianic and gardernian wicca

Dianic is not a BTW tradition. It works with the Greek Goddess, Diana and it is, with few exceptions, a completely female only tradition.


what I am gonna say is gonna say rude and disrepectful.... its not in any way that at all..... and not intended to appear that way... but its gonna come out that way

Don't worry; I don't take it that way.


I have no desire to be involved with them....
rituals, ceremonies, cloaks, secrets etc do not interest me.... and nor do i need or require a rank in a cove.....

It isn't so much "cloaks and secrecy" as it appears. How can I explain a deeply personal experience to someone who has not experienced it?
That is the key to why there are things that are oathbound in the "mysteries" traditions, such as BTW and some neo-Wiccan traditions. And we are not insular, either, as it may appear from the outside to some. We will allow anyone to experience the mysteries as long as they are willing to take an oath of secrecy and they are willing to learn new and different things, as they are taught and as they are experienced.


to me... wicca is a free and open way of being.... not a closed and controlled faith or way of being..... it defeats the purpose....

And that is perfectly valid. We do not control anyone, only expect compliance with the oath of secrecy as to our mysteries. We expect people to not be followers as much as free-thinking and free willed humans. And yes, that control does defeat the purpose, as has been demonstrated by the fundamentalism currently plaguing the world, today.


to make my garden grow, i need to be close to the earth and the elements, for that is the magick of life.....
sitting with my friends and enjoying their diverse nature, is for me the magick of humanity.....
enjoying the warmth of the sun, and the light, the glow of the moon and the darkness of the shadows is the magick of the duality....

that to me is wicca.... natural magick.... natural beauty.....

no disrepect to any other wicca faith or belief..... but if its not naturally occuring for me and a natural part of me..... then its not wicca as I understand it

Well, it is a lot deeper than you are explaining things here.
Understanding the nature of nature and the natural cycles of the Earth is critical for a deep and defining understanding of Wicca/Paganism/neo-Wicca and any of the other nature religions and disciplines. Most of the things that we understand in fables and the myths of the ancient world are there to teach us of the natural world, the cycles of the Earth and how to work within those cycles and natural behaviors of the world in which we live.

[FalconAngel]

Very well said.

What is not so surprising is that people believe in religions and spiritualities and they do not even realize that compared to the original formats of these spiritualities and religions have changed so much that they are no longer like they originally were and never will be.

The same goes for any religious/spiritual rituals, books/texts, or other aspects in the spirituality and religion and it is like this for ALL spirtualities and religions including Paganism and Wicca which are really very modern day religions like LongDuck, Falcon, and Twyla have wrote about just how and why they are very modern.

You are, clearly, not one bit studied in those religions; although you have parroted the right wing Christian statements (also a load of lies) about Wicca.
The word "Wicca" isn't even a new name or use either, just a newer spelling of the word (you should study the entymology of language when you make statements like that).

Statements like that come from "doctrinal" Pagans that believe that the mysteries should be available to all, but why would you hand a diploma to a child that never did the work? That is more like fundamentalist Christianity. One must do the work to learn the mysteries. That is the reward for doing the work. Wiccans don't learn doctrine, we experience the mysteries and no two are exactly the same for anyone. We are not orhodoxic, like monotheism, we are orthopraxic.

As fare as Wicca being "new", you are talking out your ass, because your mouth knows better.
Start by NOT looking at Wikipedia for your answers. You will find more facts and less propaganda (on every subject) by looking in responsible references instead of Wikipedia.

There are references to Wicce (old English spelling) in reference to Witches and those who practice Wiccecraft (also old English) as far back as 1200AD.

And let us not forget that Judeism begat both Christianity and Islam, so all three of those religions are very new, by comparison to Pagan beliefs.

If you go into the Appalachians, you will find familial traditions that go back all the way to Europe from before the rise of Christianity. If you go back far enough, you will find that both science and religion are both born of the earliest form of Witchcraft; Shamanism. This can, of course be verified though any sociology or comparative religions department in any major college in the western world. All it takes is proper study.

Wicca, as it is defined under the umbrella of BTW (British Traditional Witchcraft), is (semi-technically) a new religion, but it is also not a new religion. Yes, Gerald Gardner first started his tradition, but it is based in the traditions of the New Forest covens in England, who do have individual lineages going back to well before 1000AD.

When next you state something about a religion, of which you are not even remotely a part, get the facts straight.

As a group, wiccans/Pagans/neo-wiccans are a pretty tolerant lot and we don't mind educating the ill-informed, but that does not mean that we will tolerate willful ignorance. We are the Craft of the wise, not the craft of the ignorant.
You will find a larger percentage of well read and well educated (scientists, sociologists, anthropologists, archeologists, et al) people among our ranks than any monotheistic religion.
Some say that is because we do not believe in a "doctrine" and we encourage independent thought and will, where some other religions do not.
And while I only hold an AA, I do know many other Wiccans who hold PhD's in astrophysics, Engineering, Psychology, biology, sociology and other sciences.

If you want to know, then don't assume.......ask.

You look a whole lot smarter if you honestly say that you don't get it, or don't know about it, than when you insult a religion by using ignorant propaganda.

[FalconAngel]

Even shintoism is older than Wicca and Paganism.

Then there are the followers of these religions who like to claim they are above dogma and are not brainwashed like Christians when they are.

The phrase "Blessed be!" that Pagans and Wicca practitioners love to say, is just like how fundamentalist Christians like to say, "I'll pray for you!".

There you go again. Do not confuse newer traditions with the religion itself.

Wicca is a new spelling of a very old Old English word. the religions of Paganism is as old as human communities. It was born of tribal Shamanish and gave birth to science and religion.

Are you actually gullible enough to believe that religions revolving around nature and the natural cycle of life, death and the seasons is new?? You, very clearly, do not know anything about human behavior or human history.

You aren't a Young Earth creationist, are you?

I cannot speak for all Pagans or all Wiccans, but dogma is not encouraged in BTW, so you are so far off the mark on that that you are not even in the same galaxy as the mark.

The phrase "Blessed be" is nothing like the what Christians erroneously believe it to be. It is more akin to saying "that is all" than anything in Christianity.
We don't pray for anything. Monotheists pray; Witches do. Our deities give us the power to use as we will, with full responsibilty for the consequenses (for good or ill) for our actions.
Monotheists pray for a deity to come to their aid because they are disempowered from taking action, as per the doctrine of their system.

It is not that we claim that we are above dogma, we are just not dogmatic in our beliefs, not that I expect you to understand that. Your brain is full of falsities and so you are not capable of learning further.

As proof of that statement, you ask one congregation as to what they are commanded to believe, you will get one answer.
Ask a coven of witches and you will, most likely, get as many answers as there are Witches. We are orthopraxic, not orthodoxic.

Please study the subject (from reliable sources for a change) before you say something else that is stupid about a religion that you know nothing about.

[darkeyes]

Dianic is not a BTW tradition. It works with the Greek Goddess, Diana...

Diana was a Roman Goddess Falcie hun... Equivelant of Artemis, the Greek Goddess.. jus a lil petty quibble.. ;)

[darkeyes]

I hope that you are happy now.... I managed to stay and face the issues and not let the house burn down.... or whatever it was that you said.

s'ok.. next time jus don drop ya lip in huff an take ya ball away..

c Adam hun..??? Ya dus undastand Fran an 'er lil ways much betta than ya let on..:tong:

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, it is a lot deeper than you are explaining things here.
Understanding the nature of nature and the natural cycles of the Earth is critical for a deep and defining understanding of Wicca/Paganism/neo-Wicca and any of the other nature religions and disciplines. Most of the things that we understand in fables and the myths of the ancient world are there to teach us of the natural world, the cycles of the Earth and how to work within those cycles and natural behaviors of the world in which we live.


thats cos I was not explaining it.....I was touching on a few things, but explaining my beliefs is not something I do..... and there are numerous reasons why..... but one main one... is 90% of what is taught... is either BS.... or is so tied up in rules, guidelines, ceremonies, rituals or had the simple truth watered down, twisted around, blended in 100k pieces and shit out the back end of a donkey with dysentery.....

if I look at all the books and shit on the shelves about the * right way * or somebodies belief that if you are wiccan you need to shove a blue candle in your left ear, a red one in your right ear, lay on your back and kick your right leg in the air and touch your left leg to your nose on the 13th of december when its humid and the wind is blowing from the west....... not one of them is teaching you a single thing.... they are merely giving you something to believe.... and it doesn't mean its the truth at all...

the moment you join and coven or a pagan group.... you are joining a group that will teach you their ways... but it doesn't mean its the truth..... just their preception of it

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Somehow my other post didnt go thru...Why dont you boys take it outside? Personally, my money's on the Duck..lol :bigrin:
Cat

[AdamKadmon43]

s'ok.. next time jus don drop ya lip in huff an take ya ball away..

c Adam hun..??? Ya dus undastand Fran an 'er lil ways much betta than ya let on..:tong:

The greatest problem that I have with you is that you make it so very difficult for me to dislike you.

[darkeyes]

The greatest problem that I have with you is that you make it so very difficult for me to dislike you.

Awwww Adam.... is but way a the world hun..am luffly... imposs 2 dislike me... tee hee:bigrin: As God mite say.. "Let it be so" :) Or as me mum wud say.. "U wee cow.. wash ur mouth out with soap!!!":bigrin: An lemme tellya..am more wary a me mum than am a ne omnipotent bein.. 'cordin 2 me dad..she IS the omnipotent bein..:bigrin:

[rissababynta]

First of all...isn't it supposed to be common knowledge that Christianity was formed in order to convert the pagans? Meaning that it's pretty old and shtuff?

Secondly...I may just be a little too tired from just waking up...but what the flying cupcake does all this fighting over how old a religion is have to do with the main point of what Adam was going for with this thread?

How does this ALWAYS happen?

[alex_d]

First of all...isn't it supposed to be common knowledge that Christianity was formed in order to convert the pagans? Meaning that it's pretty old and shtuff?

Secondly...I may just be a little too tired from just waking up...but what the flying cupcake does all this fighting over how old a religion is have to do with the main point of what Adam was going for with this thread?

How does this ALWAYS happen?

It ALWAYS happens because people are far to anxious to unload their opinions, ideals, and morals on others, and in doing so they come off looking like the jackasses they really are.

[darkeyes]

It ALWAYS happens because people are far to anxious to unload their opinions, ideals, and morals on others, and in doing so they come off looking like the jackasses they really are.

In lotsa ways me agrees wivya Alex babe.. hav on occasion been referred 2 as opinionated lil slapper mesel.. but sumtimes.. we only progress by arguin our corner an utimately settlin on a view.. wetha or not we look jackasses is a subjective judgement but argument an unloadin opinions, ideals an morals is wot makes the world go round.. if no 1 did that.. the world wud stand still an nev change..:)

[allbimyself]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread for all the obvious reasons, but I find I can't help myself :rolleyes:

Many here have taken exception to blaming a deity for the "bad things" that happen. I agree. However, I would hope those same people will take exception when the "good things" that happen are credited to a deity. You can't absolve an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being of guilt but also gave he/she/it credit.

Bad things are caused by random chance and human stupidity, ignorance, greed, etc, etc.

Good things are caused by random chance and human intellect, knowledge, skill, empathy, passion, etc, etc.

Supernatural, magic and miracle are words we use to describe things we don't understand. However, not understanding something does not mean it is the province of deities, ghosts, spirits, aliens or the FSM. It just shows that we have limits. Human progress is made by expanding our limits, tho doing so also entails risk. It amazes me that given all of our understanding of things we once deemed as supernatural or magical, that we still cling to boogieman explanations of those we still don't grasp.

Not so long ago we didn't understand what causes earthquakes. We have a much better grasp on that now, even if that knowledge is not perfect. Blaming the Haiti earthquake on a vengeful god as that senile hate monger Pat Robertson did is to crawl back into the trees and live our lives scratching our fleas and being frightened of eclipses. And, when someone is discovered to have survived after days buried in the rubble or is saved by skilled, educated, caring medical personnel, that same god doesn't deserve any credit.

[darkeyes]

...huggles an snogs..oops:eek:...gives Allbi lil cheeper on cheek for brill lil post... *blushes for 'er mo of weakness*

[Jackal]

I agree with some of what Adam said. It bothers me that some people always praise god for the work of a doctor that healed them. Saying that God did it or that God was working through the doctor. But if the doctor fucks up no one mentions god. God didn't let the person die; the patient wasn't undeserving of being saved and so on. Some times you'll hear people say that it was their time, but its rare to hear that god has failed. I would suggest that if there are deities, perhaps people aren't as correct about their powers or natures as they suppose. In other words that the deity may operate under a different set of rules than people think it does; and/or does not have the power to intervene so much as people think. I would also say that yes, some times people ignore any kind of fact, or twist it to work with their religion. I know of one person who claims the bible is one of the world's most historically accurate texts, he also says that fossils are proof of the flood and that carbon dating is false.

On the other hand, as an atheist I wish to apologize for other atheists who attack other people's beliefs and dismiss them with the same fervor and disdain as the religious people they can't stand. I believe that George Carlin was correct when he made his 3 commandments.

1. Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
2. And thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone.
3. Thou shalt keep thy religion to THYSELF!!

Oh, and Shinto (the indigenous religion of Japan) is pretty fucking old.

LDD, and other wiccans, I would like to have your sources for what you say because they seem to have a more detailed history than mine and are vastly different. (is ex pagan/wicca) As my books told me, wicca as it is now, bears only some relation to the native witchcraft/pagan religions of Europe and that much of what is called wicca is reconstruction plus some additions.

Just because its old doesn't make it true. Just because it's new doesn't make it false.

[allbimyself]

...huggles an snogs..oops:eek:...gives Allbi lil cheeper on cheek for brill lil post... *blushes for 'er mo of weakness*CK, please notice that I did nothing to bring on this wanton display of sexual desire on Fran's part (other than being my sexy self, of course, and I can't help that).

[Giggles100]

I'm a member of the Church of the Fonz......

http://familyguycutaways.com/images/Pictures_Online/Family_Guy%20Peter%20Griffin%20At%20His%20Church%2 0Of%20The%20Fonz,The%20Father%20The%20Son%20And%20 The%20Holy%20Fonz.gif

Ayyyyyyy Mrs D...............

[rissababynta]

LDD, and other wiccans, I would like to have your sources for what you say because they seem to have a more detailed history than mine and are vastly different. (is ex pagan/wicca) As my books told me, wicca as it is now, bears only some relation to the native witchcraft/pagan religions of Europe and that much of what is called wicca is reconstruction plus some additions.

Just because its old doesn't make it true. Just because it's new doesn't make it false.

Sorry, I can't help you there. I am totally not wiccan. I have never and probably will never relate to wicca. Nothing against wiccans, I just don't feel that it's for me. I'll stick to the good old fashioned happy pagan lifestyle I have :-)

[Darkside2009]

Well this thread seems to have moved on a pace since yesterday.

However what has struck me in reading through the various posts is the level of intolerance of others and the dogmatic views.

It has descended somewhat to the level of a pissing contest, my Da is bigger than your Da.

If someone wants to believe in an omnipient God, Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy, I regard this as their own business.

If such beliefs give them comfort well and good, I would not attempt to deprive them of it.

If some aspire to some esoteric grading system within their own beliefs and call themselves Priests, do I really care? In all truthfulness I would have to say no, they can shave their ass and join the Moonies as far as I am concerned.

This phrase, of not minding teaching the ill-informed but wilful ignorance will not be tolerated, only makes me smile and think, what is the worst that can happen? Are they going to come around to my house and spank me with a rolled-up copy of the Woman's Weekly? I very much doubt it.

Before the Bible was translated into the various European Languages, we had the same esoteric class of people thinking they had the key to Life's mysteries and that access to this little coterie should be restricted to those that have 'earned' this position.

The ordinary pleb was not to be trusted with reading the Bible or anything else and making their own decision. Well despite those that want a return to Latin masses and their ilk, events have moved on.

Knowledge is for all, and any, that choose to search for it. Your Da isn't bigger than my Da, he's just your Da.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lol Standing O, Darkside. Well said. Pecks to your cheek Sugar.:bigrin:
Chuckling Cat

[FalconAngel]

thats cos I was not explaining it.....I was touching on a few things, but explaining my beliefs is not something I do..... and there are numerous reasons why..... but one main one... is 90% of what is taught... is either BS.... or is so tied up in rules, guidelines, ceremonies, rituals or had the simple truth watered down, twisted around, blended in 100k pieces and shit out the back end of a donkey with dysentery.....

But that is the thing. Those rituals, guidelines and such are part of the teaching process. We are not like Christianity. it isn't a matter of "just" converting. We require real and serious effort in order to get something out of it.
If you were, for example, learning to drive, don't you think that learning the practices and rules of operation to be paramount to learning that skill? How can you run a proper ritual (even a solo ritual) if you don't know the proper procedures for each particular type of work that your rituals are for?

The rituals are not watering down what we do, it is part of the symbolism and focusing the energies for our practices, whether BTW or eclectic or any other type of Pagan religion, without the focus, there is no magic. Until one is sufficiently trained and experienced, one needs the rituals for the focus.

What makes it different for everyone is the experience that you, as an individual has during initiations and the various rituals. THAT is the really important thing that makes it life changing and/or enlightening; the experiences through the rituals and related experiences and studying.

It sounds as if you have had some piss poor craft experiences, which is a shame.



if I look at all the books and shit on the shelves about the * right way * or somebodies belief that if you are wiccan you need to shove a blue candle in your left ear, a red one in your right ear, lay on your back and kick your right leg in the air and touch your left leg to your nose on the 13th of december when its humid and the wind is blowing from the west....... not one of them is teaching you a single thing.... they are merely giving you something to believe.... and it doesn't mean its the truth at all...

Now this is where you depart from the vast majority of eclectics that anyone ever deals with.
There are so many people out there that believe the first piece of crap that they read and assume that what they read is the end all and be all of authorities in any Craft.
A discerning mind actually finds folks in the know and asks questions. Much of what is out there has some good authors out the and some that are not so good, but have some good things in their books.
The Late Scott Cunningham is a fine example of the latter. He wrote a ton of things about the American neo-Wiccan practices and while he had some good stuff in his boks, he also had some real crap in there, too.
Then you have Patricia Crowther, not as published plus it's hard to find her books here in the US. She is a contemporary of Gerald Gardner's and one of his HPS's. She has written a few books (BTW perspective) and while some of them are fictional, they have some very good examples of Wicca within them.

The basic plan is to look through what you have available and being able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

But as you have discovered, you cannot ask a book a question and expect a good answer.

We have a rather extensive library to pick from and if you want advice on any particular authors to look for or avoid, let us know and we can make some recommendations and suggestions for good authors, both BTW and Craft in general.



the moment you join and coven or a pagan group.... you are joining a group that will teach you their ways... but it doesn't mean its the truth..... just their preception of it

Actually, yes and no.

When you join an eclectic coven, there is no telling what you will be taught. But when you join a traditional lineaged coven, then you will be taught the rituals of that tradition. None of it means that you will be taught the "Truth" through their tradition, but you will be taught their practices.

The truth comes through your experiences through those practices.

And one should never join a coven or group or path just because they welcome you in, if it doesn't feel right to you, then you should not be there.
Coven work is highly dependent on the mix of energies within the group. A HP/HPS may reject you from joining their coven because of that, yet give your name to a different coven, or even a different path that they feel you might fit better in (depending on your local options for working groups).

It took me 3 tries to find a coven that works for me.

No legitimate working group will ever tell you that they can teach you the "truth". All that they will teach you is the practice within their tradition, the truth, you must discover through the experiences through the rituals and ceremonies. My initiation was rather personally life-changing and enlightening.

But remember that if you are invited to a coven, then you must be as comfortable with them and their energies as they say they are with yours.

If they want to charge you to teach you, then run far away from them.

[FalconAngel]

The greatest problem that I have with you is that you make it so very difficult for me to dislike you.

Most of us have that "problem".:tong: We just can't help but love her.:bigrin:

[FalconAngel]

Diana was a Roman Goddess Falcie hun... Equivelant of Artemis, the Greek Goddess.. jus a lil petty quibble.. ;)

You're right.:rolleyes: I always seem to confuse the Greek and Roman Pantheons.:tong: But in my defense, the Romans just renamed the Greek gods and absorbed them into their culture.

[sammie19]

Sorry, I can't help you there. I am totally not wiccan. I have never and probably will never relate to wicca. Nothing against wiccans, I just don't feel that it's for me. I'll stick to the good old fashioned happy pagan lifestyle I have :-)

Forgive my ignorance, but I was brought up to think of all preJewish and Christian religions as pagan, and those which Christianity in particular supplanted over the last two thousand years. Religions such as those of the ancient, Roman, Greek, Egyptian and ancient Persian, and others such as were believed by the Celts of Europe amd those of the Norse and other northern European societies, as well as those of the american Maya, Inca and Aztec. Was the word pagan not used as a catch all to describe all those religions and more from around the world?

I have never been clear just what modern day Wicca and Paganism is. As I understand it, they are modern day interpretations of some ancient religions, about which much, if not most of the knowledge has long since been lost, and that what is called Wicca today is but a pale imitation of its more ancient predecessor. Is paganism now to be considered something seperate and is it a religion in its own right with its own set of core beliefs? I do speak out of a sketchy ignorance and am thus led into a confusion born out of that ignorance and by what I have always been taught. In a modern day setting, is pagan coming to mean something different from what I have always believed?

[FalconAngel]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread for all the obvious reasons, but I find I can't help myself :rolleyes:

Many here have taken exception to blaming a deity for the "bad things" that happen. I agree. However, I would hope those same people will take exception when the "good things" that happen are credited to a deity. You can't absolve an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being of guilt but also gave he/she/it credit.

Bad things are caused by random chance and human stupidity, ignorance, greed, etc, etc.

Good things are caused by random chance and human intellect, knowledge, skill, empathy, passion, etc, etc.

Many of those same folks that "blame" (insert deity here) for the bad things refuse to credit (insert deity here) for the good things. In Christianity, there is this disturbing belief that an all vengeful god is a good thing and an all loving god is bad.
That belief is also completely disempowering, since, in their minds, "God" is responsible for every act of man and nature.



Supernatural, magic and miracle are words we use to describe things we don't understand. However, not understanding something does not mean it is the province of deities, ghosts, spirits, aliens or the FSM. It just shows that we have limits. Human progress is made by expanding our limits, tho doing so also entails risk. It amazes me that given all of our understanding of things we once deemed as supernatural or magical, that we still cling to boogieman explanations of those we still don't grasp.

Don't underestimate the power of actual magic. Magic is an active focusing of energy for a purpose. Perhaps your inclusion of the word in this paragraph is because of a culturally Christian influence in our society.

And you are right about not knowing something does not mean that it is the perview of deities or other "supernatural" sources.

Believe it or not, the point that you make about expanding our limits of knowledge and understanding is well understood and supported by the majority of the pagan community (which encompasses all of the nature religions) and supported by our advancements in sciences, such as mathematics, physics and the more recent biological and genetic sciences. Those have made great strides in breaking fundamentalist hold on our knowledge and social advancement.



Not so long ago we didn't understand what causes earthquakes. We have a much better grasp on that now, even if that knowledge is not perfect. Blaming the Haiti earthquake on a vengeful god as that senile hate monger Pat Robertson did is to crawl back into the trees and live our lives scratching our fleas and being frightened of eclipses. And, when someone is discovered to have survived after days buried in the rubble or is saved by skilled, educated, caring medical personnel, that same god doesn't deserve any credit.

Very true in ALL of that. From the Wiccan perspective, if we have done work to help someone with an illness, we take credit for helping in the healing process, but we thank the doctors who did the core work as well.

On taking credit, there is an interesting Wiccan (BTW) anecdote from WWII:
During the war, according to those who later formed what is now called BTW Wicca, there were some Witches that got together for a major ritual to keep Hitler's troops out of Britain. After the day of the ritual, Hitler, who never slept through ANY meeting, would fall asleep during every planning session that was in regard to the invasion of Britain.

Coincidence or magic? I like to think that it was magic (the energies of one or more people to a single, focused purpose), but I was not there, so I am not in a position to say with absolute certainty, that it is true or not.

No matter what our belief system is, we cannot accept or disregard something as absolute if we were not there. But we should keep an open mind about it.

In order to grow, one must seek truth and accept it, no matter where it goes.
To hide the truth, even from one's self is a great tragedy and a disservice to yourself and your descendants.

[mikey3000]

Does religion comes from ancient astrology and Sun worship. You decide...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9f0XU_S78&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frwlyx2u8JE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFFZ4iEFCo&NR=1

[allbimyself]

Falcon,

I could debate what you have written, pointing out logical fallacies and outright absurdities, but I would be accused of attacking your beliefs.

[Darkside2009]

As a brief aside on roses, in answer to Dark Eyes.

Dandelions perform the same function, in as much as they attract bees and other insect pollinators which in turn act as prey for other species.

That much is taken for granted, but they don't look as pretty, unless you're a Hover Fly of course, which might go some way to explaining the vernacular.

I'm fairly confident, that if your other half bought you a bouquet of Dandelions instead of Roses for your birthday, or Valentine's Day, they might be wearing them as a hat before the day was finished.

[darkeyes]

As a brief aside on roses, in answer to Dark Eyes.

Dandelions perform the same function, in as much as they attract bees and other insect pollinators which in turn act as prey for other species.

That much is taken for granted, but they don't look as pretty, unless you're a Hover Fly of course, which might go some way to explaining the vernacular.

I'm fairly confident, that if your other half bought you a bouquet of Dandelions instead of Roses for your birthday, or Valentine's Day, they might be wearing them as a hat before the day was finished.

Ya think so? Kate an me hav large garden fulla roses 'mong lotsa otha luffly flowers shrubs an plants..... wen they in bloom they look wondaful.. an wen it rains they smell divine.. dandelions r a pain in the bootie in garden.. but as they say..a weed is but a flower in the rong place.. but hun..don make ya 'riginal claim rite an me rong dus it?? They not only decorative r they? An wile dandelions r mere weeds.. they also hav ther place in creation..an not jus 2 get on me nerves in summa by growin in lawn or flower beds...

...an no hun... wy wud she buy me a bouquet a dandelions?? Plenty of 'em grow all ova place.. an that (part from in our flowerbeds an lawn) is ok wiv me..;)

Oo... an nearly forgot..don like 'em in our veggie patch eitha...:tong:

[Hephaestion]

Diana was a Roman Goddess Falcie hun... Equivelant of Artemis, the Greek Goddess.. jus a lil petty quibble.. ;)

Mmmmmm! Depends where and when in the same sort of way that French and English vied for prominence with the 'upper classes' in British history. So much was borrowed from the 'cultural side of the Empire'.

H.

[Long Duck Dong]

But that is the thing. Those rituals, guidelines and such are part of the teaching process. We are not like Christianity. it isn't a matter of "just" converting. We require real and serious effort in order to get something out of it.
If you were, for example, learning to drive, don't you think that learning the practices and rules of operation to be paramount to learning that skill? How can you run a proper ritual (even a solo ritual) if you don't know the proper procedures for each particular type of work that your rituals are for?

The rituals are not watering down what we do, it is part of the symbolism and focusing the energies for our practices, whether BTW or eclectic or any other type of Pagan religion, without the focus, there is no magic. Until one is sufficiently trained and experienced, one needs the rituals for the focus.

What makes it different for everyone is the experience that you, as an individual has during initiations and the various rituals. THAT is the really important thing that makes it life changing and/or enlightening; the experiences through the rituals and related experiences and studying.

It sounds as if you have had some piss poor craft experiences, which is a shame.




Now this is where you depart from the vast majority of eclectics that anyone ever deals with.
There are so many people out there that believe the first piece of crap that they read and assume that what they read is the end all and be all of authorities in any Craft.
A discerning mind actually finds folks in the know and asks questions. Much of what is out there has some good authors out the and some that are not so good, but have some good things in their books.
The Late Scott Cunningham is a fine example of the latter. He wrote a ton of things about the American neo-Wiccan practices and while he had some good stuff in his boks, he also had some real crap in there, too.
Then you have Patricia Crowther, not as published plus it's hard to find her books here in the US. She is a contemporary of Gerald Gardner's and one of his HPS's. She has written a few books (BTW perspective) and while some of them are fictional, they have some very good examples of Wicca within them.

The basic plan is to look through what you have available and being able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

But as you have discovered, you cannot ask a book a question and expect a good answer.

We have a rather extensive library to pick from and if you want advice on any particular authors to look for or avoid, let us know and we can make some recommendations and suggestions for good authors, both BTW and Craft in general.




Actually, yes and no.

When you join an eclectic coven, there is no telling what you will be taught. But when you join a traditional lineaged coven, then you will be taught the rituals of that tradition. None of it means that you will be taught the "Truth" through their tradition, but you will be taught their practices.

The truth comes through your experiences through those practices.

And one should never join a coven or group or path just because they welcome you in, if it doesn't feel right to you, then you should not be there.
Coven work is highly dependent on the mix of energies within the group. A HP/HPS may reject you from joining their coven because of that, yet give your name to a different coven, or even a different path that they feel you might fit better in (depending on your local options for working groups).

It took me 3 tries to find a coven that works for me.

No legitimate working group will ever tell you that they can teach you the "truth". All that they will teach you is the practice within their tradition, the truth, you must discover through the experiences through the rituals and ceremonies. My initiation was rather personally life-changing and enlightening.

But remember that if you are invited to a coven, then you must be as comfortable with them and their energies as they say they are with yours.

If they want to charge you to teach you, then run far away from them.

the rituals, ceremonies etc.... are your way of doing things......

thats where you and me differ.... I do not need ceremonies or rituals, they are of no use to me at all.....and I learn nothing from them other than a distraction from what I am focussed on

there are many people that believe that their way works... and I do not argue that.... I accept that... but they require structure, rituals and ceremonies as its the way they understand things.... and thats where we differ..... my way works for me and doesn't require rituals, ceremonies and structure, it merely needs me to be me.....

that is also the reason why I do not share what I can and can not do and how it is done.... cos there are too many people that would scream the house down over it...... but I do what I am guided to do, for whatever reason it needs to be done.... and I am blessed with what is good for me, not what i think I need....

and rather than be *judged * or * policed * by other people.... I am *policed * by nature, which is the center of my beliefs.....

even in my dealing with people, I apply the same guidelines.... simplistic and basic......and thats why there is so many arguments between me and other people in the forum..... as they like controlled and structured ideas and ideals... and things need to match a set criteria or follow a set pattern
so they complicate things with their thinking in order to make it suitable for them to believe it....

its a bit like my approach to christianity..... go to god, not the church, not the bible, not the prayer group... but to god.... then follow gods guidance to church, the pastor, the prayer group and the bible etc.... as its god who is your center and its though his guidance that you learn what he wants.....

people believe you should go to church etc to learn about god.... but god is not the church, people are the church and that is why we have so many different beliefs in the same god.... or variations of the same god..... and its cos its peoples understanding of god that is the key.... not the church set up in his name.....

now you wrote that you went to 3 covens to find the one that worked for you, I just walk out the door and there is everything in which I believe.....
there is the knowledge, the wisdom, the magick, the understanding etc.... the source of all that I need and need to know.....

I will not go into details of what I can and can not do.... all i will say, is that I do as I am guided, without question..... and I will not do anything to change that which is not mine to change, nor act in the interests of changing the way for a purpose I believe in........

as with your anecdote about ww2 and hitler... you have a group of wiccans that got together to do it..... why ??
do you need a group to increase the * power * of the ritual, spells, ceremonies
do you need a group to focus the intent...
do you need a group to make it work
do you need a group cos a group is required

you are taught that yes, you need that group...... and once again, you take the focus off the most power forces in the world, create a ritual to refocus on the most powerful forces in the world, and then create intent and purpose....

yet.... a single shaman can call the spirit from a animal so it is free to travel, without rituals and ceremonies.... because he is guided to do it ...... therefore it is simplistic and basic.....

but that is where people will immediately try and add reasoning, structure, rituals, guidelines and laws, as its what they understand... its the way they relate to things and the way they percieve things need to be

yet there is none... there is simply guidance to do what is needed, without question or reasoning and simple faith to know that the balance is kept and why for so many 100's of years.... the balance was kept....

the current * save the earth * cries and greenies and protestors etc etc.... are all wandering around like headless chickens,.....
they are too busy * saving the earth * to stop and listen to nature....and become aware that nature can save itself..... but it is the people that are * saving * the earth, that are the biggest threat as they are trying to force the world to change, they are not helping nature to change the world.....

[Canticle]

the rituals, ceremonies etc.... are your way of doing things......

thats where you and me differ.... I do not need ceremonies or rituals, they are of no use to me at all.....and I learn nothing from them other than a distraction from what I am focussed on

there are many people that believe that their way works... and I do not argue that.... I accept that... but they require structure, rituals and ceremonies as its the way they understand things.... and thats where we differ..... my way works for me and doesn't require rituals, ceremonies and structure, it merely needs me to be me.....

that is also the reason why I do not share what I can and can not do and how it is done.... cos there are too many people that would scream the house down over it...... but I do what I am guided to do, for whatever reason it needs to be done.... and I am blessed with what is good for me, not what i think I need....

and rather than be *judged * or * policed * by other people.... I am *policed * by nature, which is the center of my beliefs.....

even in my dealing with people, I apply the same guidelines.... simplistic and basic......and thats why there is so many arguments between me and other people in the forum..... as they like controlled and structured ideas and ideals... and things need to match a set criteria or follow a set pattern
so they complicate things with their thinking in order to make it suitable for them to believe it....

its a bit like my approach to christianity..... go to god, not the church, not the bible, not the prayer group... but to god.... then follow gods guidance to church, the pastor, the prayer group and the bible etc.... as its god who is your center and its though his guidance that you learn what he wants.....

people believe you should go to church etc to learn about god.... but god is not the church, people are the church and that is why we have so many different beliefs in the same god.... or variations of the same god..... and its cos its peoples understanding of god that is the key.... not the church set up in his name.....

now you wrote that you went to 3 covens to find the one that worked for you, I just walk out the door and there is everything in which I believe.....
there is the knowledge, the wisdom, the magick, the understanding etc.... the source of all that I need and need to know.....

I will not go into details of what I can and can not do.... all i will say, is that I do as I am guided, without question..... and I will not do anything to change that which is not mine to change, nor act in the interests of changing the way for a purpose I believe in........

as with your anecdote about ww2 and hitler... you have a group of wiccans that got together to do it..... why ??
do you need a group to increase the * power * of the ritual, spells, ceremonies
do you need a group to focus the intent...
do you need a group to make it work
do you need a group cos a group is required

you are taught that yes, you need that group...... and once again, you take the focus off the most power forces in the world, create a ritual to refocus on the most powerful forces in the world, and then create intent and purpose....

yet.... a single shaman can call the spirit from a animal so it is free to travel, without rituals and ceremonies.... because he is guided to do it ...... therefore it is simplistic and basic.....

but that is where people will immediately try and add reasoning, structure, rituals, guidelines and laws, as its what they understand... its the way they relate to things and the way they percieve things need to be

yet there is none... there is simply guidance to do what is needed, without question or reasoning and simple faith to know that the balance is kept and why for so many 100's of years.... the balance was kept....

the current * save the earth * cries and greenies and protestors etc etc.... are all wandering around like headless chickens,.....
they are too busy * saving the earth * to stop and listen to nature....and become aware that nature can save itself..... but it is the people that are * saving * the earth, that are the biggest threat as they are trying to force the world to change, they are not helping nature to change the world.....

Smiles. I truly do love your beliefs. They are very akin to mine.

I am reminded of what a very well respected Medium said to me, whilst giving me a reading. ''You will be asked by someone, to provide proof. All you need to say is, ''Look around you.''