Afghanistan:Thin end of Wedge getting Thicker

[darkeyes]

Time prevents me at present from having a rant.. but there have been many concerns about Karzai and the way he runs Afghanistan.. this is definately another..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8529693.stm

Seems to me the war which is being fought in Afghanistan is increasingly about replacing one lot of bastards for another.. but I suppose Karzai is the wests bastard.. but then a few years ago were the Taliban..:(

[tenni]

Ah, the Afghanistan situation is a sad situation. Britain, Canada and other NATO partners entered this bizarre part of the world when the US requested NATO to adhere to its mandate about coming to the aid of a partner country being attacked. We have all been there for far too long. I don't believe that "we" obtained the initial reason for being there. Osama Bin Laden is still free. We are not on US soil protecting it from invaders. We are the invaders of a country that refused to turn over Bin Laden. That is all.

What puzzles me is that I know that I have always wanted my country to get the hell out of Afghanistan but somehow we are still there. Why? The argument about fighting terrorism or Taliban has never made sense to me. The fact that Afghanistan has been mired by invading troops from foreigners for much more than thirty years told me that we would be no different. The corruption in the society is so ingrained that it should be difficult to be so naive. "Helping" write a constitution based on western thoughts about democracy and imposing it on a more corrupt feudal system of Afghanistan was bound to fail.

Last year's Afghan Presidential election should have removed any doubt that we are "fighting a just war". We are not at war anyway. We are supporting a government. I'm disturbed and saddened that we the invaders ...er ...supporters of democracy in Afghanistan are still there. It has become a Catch 22 of damned if we go..damned if we stay. It also shows that NATO itself seems to be a fraud and fake concept based on a premise about protecting each other from invasions ie WW2 style. Our soldiers are dying and I find it difficult to say that it is for freedom, democracy or justice. That would be too much bullsh*t.

Who are we to place ourselves on a pedestal of democracy? In Canada, we have a PM who is using a standard Parliamentary procedure inappropriately to avoid having to face the rath and demands of Parliament. No longer is our system working democratically if you examine it from a certain perspective. In Britain you have the release of a new book exposing or accusing Brown of being a bully, MP's fake expense accounts are a form of corruption...isn't it? In the US, well they have just come out of a most immoral, sleezy period that even included accusations of election fraud...that mysteriously was found to be false. It was a chad thingy. Haliburton is a word not to be used in the same breath as democracy.

So, Karzai has placed himself in control of who gets to determine election procedural errors. Do we have the right to feel better than the Afghanis? What's a million stuffed ballots when Florida chads have been a model for good election procedures? Canada having a PM acting like a demi god and shutting down Parliament to avoid democratic accountability. The US placed Karzai in a position of control initially. Karzai is no different than the Sha of Iran some forty or so years earlier: puppets who went crazy with power. In my opinion, it was to do the US's bidding. War Lords, Drug Lords, Karzai, it would be best for us to get out of bed with Karzai. Pick up our pants and go home. It continues to smell bad.

[FalconAngel]

Afghanistan is another of those "forever wars".

Every major power and empire that has had the capability to get there has had the same problem and technology has never been able to win any war there.

Numbers of troops has not helped, either, as we are re-learning the lessons of Vietnam, as the Russians learned during their invasion of Afghanistan.

The problem is not the terrain, since technology can help overcome many of the terrain issues (not all, of course), and the problem is not religion, either, as Alexander the Great demonstrated during his invasion of Afghanistan long before even Christianity existed.

The problem is tribalism. All these different tribes fight each other over their own local issues and so it is impossible to get anything but short term cooperation from a population that is self-divided by tribalism.

Many would think this to be a strategic advantage for an invading force, but in the long term, it is a major strategic disadvantage because all of the tribes will band together against an invading army, much the same way that Islam does in the rest of the Middle East. Afterward, they will go back to fighting amongst themselves.

It is a kind of "the friend of my rival cannot be my friend" type of extreme thinking. That prohibits them from seeing that the friend of their rival may be trying to get them to make nice with each other.

But without overcoming tribalism, no army can win in Afghanistan without committing genocide against all of the Afghan people. I don't see genocide as a reasonable or viable choice.

[MarieDelta]

Afghanistan is another of those "forever wars".

Every major power and empire that has had the capability to get there has had the same problem and technology has never been able to win any war there.

Numbers of troops has not helped, either, as we are re-learning the lessons of Vietnam, as the Russians learned during their invasion of Afghanistan.

The problem is not the terrain, since technology can help overcome many of the terrain issues (not all, of course), and the problem is not religion, either, as Alexander the Great demonstrated during his invasion of Afghanistan long before even Christianity existed.

The problem is tribalism. All these different tribes fight each other over their own local issues and so it is impossible to get anything but short term cooperation from a population that is self-divided by tribalism.

Many would think this to be a strategic advantage for an invading force, but in the long term, it is a major strategic disadvantage because all of the tribes will band together against an invading army, much the same way that Islam does in the rest of the Middle East. Afterward, they will go back to fighting amongst themselves.

It is a kind of "the friend of my rival cannot be my friend" type of extreme thinking. That prohibits them from seeing that the friend of their rival may be trying to get them to make nice with each other.

But without overcoming tribalism, no army can win in Afghanistan without committing genocide against all of the Afghan people. I don't see genocide as a reasonable or viable choice.

I agree, FA. It is a sad waste of time and resources.

[FalconAngel]

I agree, FA. It is a sad waste of time and resources.

The real waste is that we expend our resources on making more war than friends there, by not building inter-tribal long term peace. We could be more effective, in our search for Bin Ladden with fewer troops that are more specialized and more personnel geared toward building tribal and inter-tribal peace and infrastructure.
They need to learn to be more cooperative with each other, which would be more productive for the entire population. That is the real hurdle.

It is part of the SF mantra, win their hearts and minds and their bodies will follow. The philosophy worked in WWII, Korea and Vietnam (although we often shot ourselves in the foot in Vietnam).

It does work, as long as we don't keep doing a half-assed job of it.

[tenni]

Actually, the Canadians have been using this make friend approach from day one. Troops would go into villages and find out what their needs were. In one case, the village's water pump was broken. The Canadians went back to their base and either found the replacement for the broken part or gave the village a new water pump. The goal was to earn their trust. Officers met with the tribal elders very frequently to discuss what the Canadians were doing and how they might work with the elders. I recall that the elders would come from several close by villages. There is a name for this meeting and it is part of their tribal justice system. All of this was being done in Kandahar. Whenever a new Canadian leader would come in the old one would introduce the new one at such an elder meeting. Similarly, recently the US officer was taken to introduce him to the elders. There have been attempts to win the trust of the Afghans for many years now. Unfortunately, when drone planes etc. kill innocent women and children as last weekend this really makes it difficult to keep the trust of the Afghans. What is a bit shocking is a report that I heard about the recent use of drone planes. It was stated that the button to shoot or drop a bomb is actually not even in Afghanistan. The drone's button is controlled by someone in the US. Mistakes are made by someone not familiar with the actual territory?

With the basis of their society being a type of barter /bribery, it is difficult. The Taliban and poverty are also difficult to deal with. The lack of an economy beyond opium is difficult to improve. There are so many social problems that are different from the Western countries that are involved.


The real waste is that we expend our resources on making more war than friends there, by not building inter-tribal long term peace. We could be more effective, in our search for Bin Ladden with fewer troops that are more specialized and more personnel geared toward building tribal and inter-tribal peace and infrastructure.
They need to learn to be more cooperative with each other, which would be more productive for the entire population. That is the real hurdle.

It is part of the SF mantra, win their hearts and minds and their bodies will follow. The philosophy worked in WWII, Korea and Vietnam (although we often shot ourselves in the foot in Vietnam).

It does work, as long as we don't keep doing a half-assed job of it.

[MarieDelta]

Problem is , our opponents are using "rule by terrorism" and drug money to fund it.

The military has never been the problem when resolving a conflict as, mostly, they follow orders and do what is expected. The problem is higher up- all my own opinion, of course.

[inquisitive13]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

[darkeyes]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

...and a fine example of human compassion...:rolleyes:

[Annika L]

...and a fine example of human compassion...:rolleyes:

...or of thoughtfulness in general...is the poster even aware of what we're talking about? I sensed more Inquisition than Inquisitive.

[jem_is_bi]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

Is that a recruitment slogan for the army?
It does seem that since the end of the cold war, that has been US policy.

Crazy me, wishing that we had another super-power arround to keep us from killing people that do not do as we wish.

[rissababynta]

Personally, I have one thing to say about that place and one one thing only about anything having to do with Afghanistan...and that is that I pray to every God and Goddess I can think of that my husband and every other soldier who goes over there now and in the future is ok.

[FalconAngel]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

Thank the thirty years war for that one......The original quote is from an incident during the war, when the Catholic army had laid siege to a city that had both Catholic and Protestant people inside.

When the aid to the General asked "how will we tell the good Christians from the bad Christians", the General's response was "Kill them all. God will know his own."

After more than 10,000 years of civilization, we still haven't learned to live in peace with each other.

[IanBorthwick]

Someone once said that until the primary rules of war are changed, war will never cease:

1) Old men start wars...

2) Young men must die in them.

Change this, and war will never return.

Any ideas? :(

[darkeyes]

As per usual, most of you are bent round the edges on this. Falcon Angel has it most close to right. I'm not surprised, as we are both ex military and that gives a certain common insight.

I am not in favor of how the war in Afghanistan is being conducted. It was going very well up until the President waited nearly a year to make a decision on how best to fight this war. In that time, both the logistical and the political situation went to hell. Had he followed the path already laid out for him (winning hearts and minds hand in hand with the best military ever) it would probably have been over by now. But, he played politics with it instead, not only losing lives but losing ground as well.

You may not have liked Bush (and at the end I did not), but one thing you knew was that he wasn't going to play politics. He listened to his generals, and let them do their jobs, politics be damned. From a purely military perspective, he was a great president.

Tenni, again, can't make a single comment about the US without spreading disinformation about what actually happens here. I honestly wish that he would educate himself on something other that liberal news outlets and sensationalist books that already support his views.

Pasa

Pasa..I think u don't understand Afghanistan.. sure as hell I don't, but the whole history of the place added to the terrain and the kind of war that is and (technology apart) has always been fought in the country makes any statement that it would probably have been won by now rubbish... and Bush a great military president? Even more garbage.. it is a much more difficult war to win than Iraq and we see what is going on there even now... and I am not sure it can be won..

..win hearts and minds? Maybe..if you can win enough.. about 95% and you may have a chance.. less than that it will go on and on..

..but going back to the topic.. the Afghan government is so bent that it is so much more difficult, and it is not worthy of the lives which are being sacrificed to keep it there. No war is worthy of the sacrifice of a single life, far less one to prop up such a corrupt piece of dross..

[darkeyes]

Personally, I have one thing to say about that place and one one thing only about anything having to do with Afghanistan...and that is that I pray to every God and Goddess I can think of that my husband and every other soldier who goes over there now and in the future is ok.

.. May I just add to that every other human being Ris... no matter his or her cause..or more to the point..lack of one:)

[MarieDelta]

Thank the thirty years war for that one......The original quote is from an incident during the war, when the Catholic army had laid siege to a city that had both Catholic and Protestant people inside.

When the aid to the General asked "how will we tell the good Christians from the bad Christians", the General's response was "Kill them all. God will know his own."

After more than 10,000 years of civilization, we still haven't learned to live in peace with each other.

Some had hoped with the advent of nuclear weapons we would. However we are still neanderthals, in a cave filled with gasoline, holding a match.