Opinions needed on this subject please...

[texasman6172003]

Some of you know that my wife and i were unable too have kids. It has been stressful at times over the years.Been married for 30. I have gotten too feeling,some of you may think it is silly i don't know. But there are times i have felt like i am not much of a man because i am not a father. At times,i feel like i have let my Family down too. I know some people say you can not judge a man because he has no kids and is married or in a relationship. This has really troubled me at times. So what id like too hear from y'all is,does not having any kids make me less of a man than any one else. Id really appreciate some responses y'all. Thank You..:)

[Realist]

I'm 69 and have never had children. I've never felt that I'm less of a man, or human being, for choosing not to be a father.

My parents put some pressure on me to have children, but that was their wishes, not mine. Considering that I've been married 3 times, makes my choice the right one, for me!

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Sweet Baby, not having children doesnt make you any less of a man, it simply means that somewhere along the line, children just never entered into the equation. You didnt mention if it was an inability on you or your lady's part, but whichever the case it doesnt mean that you are any less a man for not having offsprings. Now does it make her any less of a woman. You two have each other, and that is a very wonderful thing after all of these years...a rare commity in todays standards.

You are you, Darlin, you are a sweet and loving man, and always shall be. Just continue to be you and all will be fine.
Kisses and warm hugs my dear friend.
Yer Cat. ;)

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

PS Anytime you and Real wanna Practise making babies, ya'll let me know. I'm not above helping my fellow man in their pursuit of friskyness..LOL
Kisses to you both..
Silly Cat.

[12voltman59]

I am 50 now and no kids---I have no regrets about that----I cannot explain it--but I just felt that kids were not for me.

As far as the idea that "a man is not a man without kids"--I say that is total hogwash.

To me----a "real man" makes a decison one way or the other and sticks to it--because he knows in his heart of hearts that either having kids is for him or not. To have kids--as far as I am concerned is way too important a thing to let society, our friends or family dictate that for us!!!

Don't feel bad about it Tex---and if anyone really does every say anything--tell them it is not one bit of their damned business one way or the other!!!

[Realist]

Aw, Cat, no sweeter gift was ever offered!

[texasman6172003]

PS Anytime you and Real wanna Practise making babies, ya'll let me know. I'm not above helping my fellow man in their pursuit of friskyness..LOL
Kisses to you both..
Silly Cat. LOL,Cat,Ty,I needed that. And for that matter it was i and her ,we both had problems...Ty Sweets..

[Doggie_Wood]

Tex, I ditto the above comments. This is something that you have no control over and is not your fault, so don't blame yourself.
Your friend always

Doggie :doggie:

[12voltman59]

I am 50 now and no kids---I have no regrets about that----I cannot explain it--but I just felt that kids were not for me.

As far as the idea that "a man is not a man without kids"--I say that is total hogwash.

To me----a "real man" makes a decison one way or the other and sticks to it--because he knows in his heart of hearts that either having kids is for him or not. To have kids--as far as I am concerned is way too important a thing to let society, our friends or family dictate that for us!!!

Don't feel bad about it Tex---and if anyone really does every say anything--tell them it is not one bit of their damned business one way or the other!!!

[TwylaTwobits]

Not having children does not make you any less of a human. Hugs to ya

[_Joe_]

been awhile Tex.

I think what matters most is how YOU feel, and it's clearly digging at you some, which I'm sorry it is.

I personally don't see it as a test of your manlyness or anything, I see it as a struggle to go against the ingrain instinct that we are to reproduce and keep our bloodline going. If that's the focus of the frustrations, then you can take some pride that its just your genetics messing around with you, and you need to come to terms with that just like we come to terms with us being bisexual.

I hope I explained that clearly as it was in my head....

[Donkey_burger]

I'm wondering if this will lessen somehow by spending time with kids. There are a lot of organizations for this, including big brothers, big sisters, day cares, etc. This will give you a picture of how good you are with kids, and will help channel some of your "fathering" instinct.

Just a bit of unsolicited @$$vice.

DB :bipride:

[AdamKadmon43]

I never had any children.... and I never wanted any.

Quite simply because I can not stand to be around the annoying, irritating little bastards.

[rissababynta]

Well, I know personally I measure a man by how he handles situations, treats others, and treats himself. Would he work three jobs to feed those he cares about? Would he rush into a burning building to help his family, or perhaps total strangers, escape from the blaze? Would he give the shirt off of his back to someone who desperately needed it? THESE are the things that make up a man.

Oh yes, there is so much more to being a man than having and raising a child. Sure, some could consider this to be a big part of a persons life, but in the large scheme of things, it has little to do with how manly someone is.

[FalconAngel]

It takes more than progeny to be a good man. I have a friend that is a better father to his step-daughter than the man who fathered the child.

It takes a lot to keep going like that and just because you have no kids of your own does not mean a damned thing. It is the quality of character that makes a man, not his ability to procreate.

[tenni]

I understand your feeling but I do not have that feeling.

This may sound cruel but if you feel less of a man because you were not able to sire a child, then you are less of a man. The question is what are you going to do to regain your self image about your masculinity?

We may all write that you are not less of a man but if it is nagging at you our words stating that you are no less a man will do little for you.

There are many traits about being a man beyond the mere biology. You have the parts. You are a man biologically. Look beyond the sire aspect and find traits about "being a man" that you value. Focus on those traits that you have and can control.

[onewhocares]

Texy,

Darlin...the ability to produce children does not make you less of a man my dear friend. Does the ability to produce children make another more of a man. Not in my estimation. I agree with Rissa when you look to what makes a man...the commitment to the ones he loves; the generosity of his heart; the largess of his soul; the tenderness of his touch; the genuineness of love; the integrity that shines from within. Man a man has come across my path and I have never met a more kind,caring,genuine gentlemen that you. I hold you in high esteem as do many. Should someone consider you less of a man...Kindly give them my number and I shall be more than happy to set them on the right path of understanding.

Belle

If Cat is busy....I am most willing.

[void()]

Thanks tex for bringing this subject up. In much the same boat here.
And thanks tenni for that bit of advice. "Look beyond the sire aspect and find traits about "being a man" that you value. Focus on those traits that you have and can control."

And tex, having the courage to bring it up, well there you go.

[Volley]

:2cents:
I have seen many fathers who are not good men. And many men who are not fathers that are very good men.

Fatherhood or not does not make one real man or a good man. A persons' character is what counts.

And the above goes for mothers and women too!

[Canticle]

There are so many reasons why people don't get to become parents. Choice, or nature deciding. Producing ones own offspring, is not a necessity. One can be a father or mother figure to younger siblings, nieces and nephews, friends' children etc, etc. Not everyone wants to adopt. Not everyone wants to be a parent.

My brother and his wife have no children. They have worked hard and had a good life, but there have always been children in their life.....just not their own.

There are many ups and downs when it comes to being a parent and every parent, when being driven crazy by their children, will think, ''what if.''

Yes, there is something special about having ones own children, For a mother, holding the new baby, which grew within her body and every birthday that the child has, the mother will remember the birth...vividly. I'll be doing just that at the weekend, for my youngest will be 21 and the journey has been an amazing one.....and at times...Yes...she has annoyed and irritated me...but it's all worth it..when I see the confident and successful young woman, she has become.

Most people, whether they have been a parent or not, will have had their life enriched, by coming into contact with children/young people, of all ages. We can all nurture the young, our own, or those which are family members, or just friends. I look after two girls after school, on occasion. I have seen a shy 11 year old grow into a very beautiful, nearly 14 year old and her sister, a little younger, is so bright, so talented. They are a joy to be with.

But I get to hand then back, they are not mine. However, they have won a place in my heart and I love them dearly and when an 8 year old tells you, ''I love you,'' it's a great feeling.

Children are a joy, a blessing, a comfort. They are also annoying, frustrating, irritating. We were all children...at some point. Some people stay that way.

Many people can make babies, some can't, some don't want to.....but making babies, does not mean that one will be a good parent. A father/mother figure or mentor, can often do more good for a child that the biological parents. Of course to be able to do that, a person needs to be able to run their own life properly and not make a mess of it.

You will always carry that sadness with you...of not having your own children.....but think back and remember the children you have known, and whose lives you will have enriched.

They will remember you!

[darkeyes]

*Sits on Texie's knee an twiddles 'is moustache*

Don talk soft ya luffly man...:)

[mariersa]

teeHee she's such a slut ^^, but parenthood is a sacred element of life, cheerish it or don't, it doesn't matter, if your have nieces or nephews that you care about!!?? you're parenting!!!

[goldenfinger]

I never had any children.... and I never wanted any.

Quite simply because I can not stand to be around the annoying, irritating little bastards.

Children live what they learn from the people around them. I'm sure they feel the same about you. Your statement is an attack on all peoples children, mine included, and I take that as a very serious attack on me. Shame on you.

[void()]

"Yes, there is something special about having ones own children, For a mother, holding the new baby, which grew within her body and every birthday that the child has, the mother will remember the birth...vividly. I'll be doing just that at the weekend, for my youngest will be 21 and the journey has been an amazing one.....and at times...Yes...she has annoyed and irritated me...but it's all worth it..when I see the confident and successful young woman, she has become."


First, I am not seeking to diminish your sense or feeling of pride. You're entitled to it as well as the right to express it. That's what makes our world/s go round, the differences we all have.

Second, I want to express that at times it is difficult emotionally to 'deal' with life. One of the aspects of it for me is being biologically sterile. I've had more than a few say I'd be a fine daddy.

That always sends waves of pain. Even if it were feasible to adopt, there would still not be the same feelings you describe here. There is no way I'll ever step back as father and smile.

Finally, I then consider the notion of bringing children to our world/s. I consider myself fortunate. I'll never need face explaining to a child that yes, life is unfair and cruel at times. Never have to attend a child's funereal.

But it still does hurt. It still invites jealousy and maudlin. Guess that explains the anti-depressants. Not able to have children but wanting to could indeed be enough. There's more to it though. I digress as those are others tales and veer too far astray.

[biinterested]

"It doesn't take a man to have a child, it takes a man to raise one." Our President.
You are a very sincere and caring person; do not worry of what the world has put on your shoulders and do not take that burden on as you and your wife had no choice in having kids. Just be and all will be well.

[TheDream]

Adoption could be an option. Just because you can't physically produce kids between the two of you doesn't mean that you cannot be a father and the whole DNA thing is overrated any way. What makes you a father is the love, care and attention you can give a child from the day you take it home to the day you die it doesn't start and end with blood analysis it's what you do.

As for feeling less of a man, don't beat yourself up, you are as much of a man as anybody in this world. The fact that you are open about talking about your experience and life shows just how much of a man you really are because many men would coward away from it and hide from it.

The most important thing anyone ever said to me was just be yourself and if you can accept who you are, you'll be the best man you can be... and trust me that is the best advice I've ever had.

[texasman6172003]

Adoption could be an option. Just because you can't physically produce kids between the two of you doesn't mean that you cannot be a father and the whole DNA thing is overrated any way. What makes you a father is the love, care and attention you can give a child from the day you take it home to the day you die it doesn't start and end with blood analysis it's what you do.

As for feeling less of a man, don't beat yourself up, you are as much of a man as anybody in this world. The fact that you are open about talking about your experience and life shows just how much of a man you really are because many men would coward away from it and hide from it.

The most important thing anyone ever said to me was just be yourself and if you can accept who you are, you'll be the best man you can be... and trust me that is the best advice I've ever had.

Well Dream we thought about adoption,but you never new what you would get with one,so we decided too just be happy with our selves.

[texasman6172003]

"Yes, there is something special about having ones own children, For a mother, holding the new baby, which grew within her body and every birthday that the child has, the mother will remember the birth...vividly. I'll be doing just that at the weekend, for my youngest will be 21 and the journey has been an amazing one.....and at times...Yes...she has annoyed and irritated me...but it's all worth it..when I see the confident and successful young woman, she has become."


First, I am not seeking to diminish your sense or feeling of pride. You're entitled to it as well as the right to express it. That's what makes our world/s go round, the differences we all have.

Second, I want to express that at times it is difficult emotionally to 'deal' with life. One of the aspects of it for me is being biologically sterile. I've had more than a few say I'd be a fine daddy.

That always sends waves of pain. Even if it were feasible to adopt, there would still not be the same feelings you describe here. There is no way I'll ever step back as father and smile.

Finally, I then consider the notion of bringing children to our world/s. I consider myself fortunate. I'll never need face explaining to a child that yes, life is unfair and cruel at times. Never have to attend a child's funereal.

But it still does hurt. It still invites jealousy and maudlin. Guess that explains the anti-depressants. Not able to have children but wanting to could indeed be enough. There's more to it though. I digress as those are others tales and veer too far astray.

Ty for your response Ben,Yes it can lead too Jealousy of others and ive had the youd be a great Dad also.Well i am NOT and never will be,and as far as having too attend a childs funeral,well i have done so,and i would not wish THAT on my worst enemy!! Ty for your concern Ben...

[texasman6172003]

Texy,

Darlin...the ability to produce children does not make you less of a man my dear friend. Does the ability to produce children make another more of a man. Not in my estimation. I agree with Rissa when you look to what makes a man...the commitment to the ones he loves; the generosity of his heart; the largess of his soul; the tenderness of his touch; the genuineness of love; the integrity that shines from within. Man a man has come across my path and I have never met a more kind,caring,genuine gentlemen that you. I hold you in high esteem as do many. Should someone consider you less of a man...Kindly give them my number and I shall be more than happy to set them on the right path of understanding.

Belle

If Cat is busy....I am most willing.

Ty Belle my dear friend,You have all ways been there for me.

[texasman6172003]

Well, I know personally I measure a man by how he handles situations, treats others, and treats himself. Would he work three jobs to feed those he cares about? Would he rush into a burning building to help his family, or perhaps total strangers, escape from the blaze? Would he give the shirt off of his back to someone who desperately needed it? THESE are the things that make up a man.

Oh yes, there is so much more to being a man than having and raising a child. Sure, some could consider this to be a big part of a persons life, but in the large scheme of things, it has little to do with how manly someone is.

Ty Rissa,I would do all of those thing you mentioned.

[mikey3000]

Some of you know that my wife and i were unable too have kids. It has been stressful at times over the years.Been married for 30. I have gotten too feeling,some of you may think it is silly i don't know. But there are times i have felt like i am not much of a man because i am not a father. At times,i feel like i have let my Family down too. I know some people say you can not judge a man because he has no kids and is married or in a relationship. This has really troubled me at times. So what id like too hear from y'all is,does not having any kids make me less of a man than any one else. Id really appreciate some responses y'all. Thank You..:)
Dude, just by asking this question proves that you are an incredible man!!! You don't have to be a dad to be a man. Just look at the teenage boys who get their girlfriends pregnant. Or look at the dead-beat dads, are they real men?

But since I am a dad, I can understand your feelings too. You are no less a man for wanting to be a father. Would you consider adoption? There are so many little babies that need parents out there. How about a foster parent? Again, plenty of young children need assistance in this world. JUst consider it, ok? A few of my friends were in your position, have adopted, and now feel fulfilled. Remember. Biology doesn't make you a good parent. Love and desire do. Please remember, all children belong to God, he just lends them to us for a very little while.

Good luck friend.

[Billys_gurl]

Tex sweetheart, I can give you both sexes opinion on this one. Mind you, I have a son who is about to turn 11.

I, and my husband, agree that it does not make you any less of a man. My son doesn't belong to my hubby. His 'sperm donor' was a bartender in a gay bar I frequented. Now, hubby didnt enter picture until son is 4, but still claims him as his own. The real dad hasnt seen son since child support hearing when son was 1. So, who's the real man here? The other thing is hubby and I can't have children. We have had more 'practice' than most people think and it's not going to happen. The fact that I have my son is a miracle in itself. If it's not meant to be, so be it. A man is defined in his own way, how he lives, how he treats people, and the way he conducts his life. Not by how many children he has, if any, how much money he has, his car, or how big a home he lives in. You are a man, plain and simple, no one can take your manly-ness from you but you yourself.

Hubby said, he has done some things that made people see him as less of man.. BUT hubby says its your character and demeanor, how you treat other people that make you a man. Not your gadgets, gizmos, or anything else. If you HAD to have children to be a man or a true woman ALOT of us would be screwed.

[texasman6172003]

Dude, just by asking this question proves that you are an incredible man!!! You don't have to be a dad to be a man. Just look at the teenage boys who get their girlfriends pregnant. Or look at the dead-beat dads, are they real men?

But since I am a dad, I can understand your feelings too. You are no less a man for wanting to be a father. Would you consider adoption? There are so many little babies that need parents out there. How about a foster parent? Again, plenty of young children need assistance in this world. JUst consider it, ok? A few of my friends were in your position, have adopted, and now feel fulfilled. Remember. Biology doesn't make you a good parent. Love and desire do. Please remember, all children belong to God, he just lends them to us for a very little while.

Good luck friend.Ty Mikey,we had decided a long time ago against adoption,is that selfish,i say it is not.It's just the way we decided to live. We just decided too love our 10 nieces and my nephew a lot more.

[AdamKadmon43]

Children live what they learn from the people around them. I'm sure they feel the same about you. Your statement is an attack on all peoples children, mine included, and I take that as a very serious attack on me. Shame on you.

I am terribly sorry...... Please forgive me.

I apologise profusely. It was certainly never my intent to get you all pissed off with me, and to get your tits in a wringer over my ill-conceived remark.

Everyone must surely realize that children are delightful, lovey, charming little things (the fact that they start out as helpless, dumb entities that crap in their pants and scream in shrill voices not-withstanding).

Everyone should have all the children that they possibly can.... The planet most certainly needs more of them.

[darkeyes]

I am terribly sorry...... Please forgive me.

I apologise profusely. It was certainly never my intent to get you all pissed off with me, and to get your tits in a wringer over my ill-conceived remark.

Everyone must surely realize that children are delightful, lovey, charming little things (the fact that they start out as helpless, dumb entities that crap in their pants and scream in shrill voices not-withstanding).

Everyone should have all the children that they possibly can.... The planet most certainly needs more of them.

Adam me darlin'... not quite sure yas entered inta the spirit a this thread yet.. nev ev wanted kids but am raisin 2 an its a challengin experience an a helluva rewardin 1 an all.. an ifya make the connection wiv the lil horrors as me has wiv Kate's then it is gr8 fun..

..so Texie don u lissen 2 nasty ole Adam... he tryin 2 b 2 smart for 'is own gud...

*Smacks Adams hands an face an sends 'im 2 bed wivout 'is suppa*

[tpk925]

I am 45 divorced, and no kids. Does not bother me one bit. And I have one hell of a sex life. Don't worry about what other people think. Go have fun!!:)

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I never had any children.... and I never wanted any.
Quite simply because I can not stand to be around the annoying, irritating little bastards.

There ya go Tex. There's a prime example of a person's mentality level. :rolleyes: Unfortunately its the opinion of alot of people. But it takes a real man to raise and love children properly, and I Know you and your Mrs. would have been wonderful parents for you Are, a good and decent Real man.
Go volunteer at various schools, day cares and hospitals, Darlin. Caring for a child doesnt mean you have to have those of your own. Like my Mama told me once "It not who plants the seed, its who tends the crops" that matters most.
Big hugs Sugar.
Yer Cat

[Canticle]

''First, I am not seeking to diminish your sense or feeling of pride. You're entitled to it as well as the right to express it. That's what makes our world/s go round, the differences we all have.''

It's not pride Void, it's love! Love for just one of my three children. I have three children and each has a very different character. My son's are 7 and eight years older than their sister and one of the fascinating things, has been watching the little girl, with two older brothers. grow up, wanting to play with their toys, wanting to help her father, when most girls would not have wanted to get involved in refurbishing a ''Mini,'' or shift loads of logs, etc... wanting to be seen as an equal. We never stopped our daughter from doing such things. In fact she was far more inclined, to be trusted to do 'manual labour,' than the elder of her two brothers.

She's remained a feminine little thing too, going through the pink, hating pink, becoming a Goth, finding that too much like hard work, getting into pink again, the make up, the jewellery....all that comes with being a girly girl.

She has also felt unsettled, but finally found her niche, got a good job, a fiance, who adores her and they have just bought their first house, Wow, I can remember me at 21 and the last thing that would have been on my mind, was buying a house. She's an organiser, a manager, a matriarch. She's also a very, very beautiful young woman. A good person...the sort who would help others.

Gee....I wish all people could be like the young woman, I have had the privilege of not only giving birth to....but raising.

''Second, I want to express that at times it is difficult emotionally to 'deal' with life. One of the aspects of it for me is being biologically sterile. I've had more than a few say I'd be a fine daddy.''

I think that every human being will, at some point, have found life an emotional mine field, for whatever reason. Ok...you are biologically sterile. This happens to many people, both male and female. It doesn't make a man less masduline, or a woman less feminine.

The words that people say, such as ''you'd have made a fine daddy,'' are not things said to hurt. It's probably, that these people see in you, characteristics, which they believe would have made you, an excellent parent....no more, no less. I reckon my brother would have been a great Dad, but he isn't. His life has still been a full one and not missing anything, for lack of having offspring, but he's good with children, he is able to relate to them. It's just that he and his wife, didn't wish to become parents.

''That always sends waves of pain. Even if it were feasible to adopt, there would still not be the same feelings you describe here. There is no way I'll ever step back as father and smile.''

Waves of pain? For what...the crass and often churned out remarks that people make, or the fact that you cannot biologically produce your own offspring. How you feel is important, not how others feel, because they know you as a man with no children...for whatever reason.

You don't think that the people who adopt children, feel the same love as they would for their own biological offspring? Do you generalise here.....or is this just, how you think you would feel. I guess you have never adopted a child.....so you wouldn't know. The same as you can't know what it feels like to hold a baby, one has just given birth to......or as a new father... held...minutes after the birth.

People who adopt children, don't just ''make babies.'' They want to be parents, they have thought it through and they have to prove that they are worthy of such an honour and a lifelong commitment.

My neighbours adopted three siblings, who had had a very bad start in life. Those three children could not be more loved. They are cherished, not only by their parents, but by grandparents, aunts and uncles and the wider family. The love is the same...the commitment is the same.

By the way, no parent is able to stand back and be proud of their child, all of the time. They make mistakes, they fuck up....sometimes they might do a terrible thing.....and a parent won't be proud...but they will always love that child...always.

''Finally, I then consider the notion of bringing children to our world/s. I consider myself fortunate. I'll never need face explaining to a child that yes, life is unfair and cruel at times. Never have to attend a child's funereal.''

Void, if no children are born, how the heck can there ever be a chance to change the world. Sure, it's a cruel place, for humans and other animals alike. Sure, life deals us blows and sometimes it's difficult to pick oneself up, from off the floor.

Sure, human hurts human, fights, maims, kills...one to one, or in great conflicts. Do you never think about all the wonders of this world...the mostly good people, just trying to live a decent life and I mean live.....not hide in the shadows. The laughter of children, their innocent, honest and open view of the world. How they will find beauty in the most tiny insect, or just a petal from a flower. Look around you....the world is both beautiful and ugly.....life is both easy and difficult. What we make of the life we have, the contribution we can make, is important. There are some people who make no contribution at all.

Every parent...will have thought....at some point...''I don't want to bring children, into this cruel world.'' I know what family life was like with just two children and how much more easy it was and would have continued to be...financially...maybe emotionally...but then this amazing girl arrived and proved her character, before ever she was born. Life changed, when she was born and two brothers, more like twins, than anything, suddenly had this female to worship and adore....and they still do...no matter how annoying she may have been at times (and still can be).

I too, would hate to attend the funeral of a child. I've attended many a funeral of people who have died, far too young, but never that of a child. However, death comes to us all, no matter what our age maybe. The death of a child is devastating, it has got to be and remember, we are always a child to our parents.....but the loss of a young child is tragic. All one can hope for is, that time will be a great healer and that the awful sense of loss, will be replaced by remembering the joyous times, and using those memories to ease the pain of the grief.

''But it still does hurt. It still invites jealousy and maudlin. Guess that explains the anti-depressants. Not able to have children but wanting to could indeed be enough. There's more to it though. I digress as those are others tales and veer too far astray.''

I find this last paragraph difficult to answer, because I do not know if you are expressing personal sadness and longing and feelings, or those, which you feel others must experience. We all have our problems, however big or small they may seem. What is a disaster to one, will be seen as a slight hiccup, to another. A passing sadness in one life, may be a great hole, to be left, in the life of another person. Life will never be simple.....but if we did not bring more people into this world, where would all the good people, to get us through those bad times, come from?

As has been already said.....it takes more than a biological relationship, to make a good father.....or mother.

[thatcher29]

Tex, I'm 61 and never had kids, although I was in several situations where my girlfriends wanted them. Does it bother me? No, because it's obvious there's more than enough children in the world. Go to Central America and look at all the crime and other problems caused by an rapidly expanding population. I always figured some family in India had my quota of kids. (And probably yours too...)

[mikey3000]

Ty Mikey,we had decided a long time ago against adoption,is that selfish,i say it is not.It's just the way we decided to live. We just decided too love our 10 nieces and my nephew a lot more.

Then that was your decision. Not that you couldn't be parents, but that you decided not to. And that's ok too. Just accept your decision then.

But I've decided to try and live my life with no grerets. To me the two most dangerous words in the English languare are, "what if..."

Thats how I ended up here.:bigrin:

See, I never really wanted to have kids at all, but it was very important to my wife, so I agreed, and boy, about half way through her pregnancy did I change. I didn't care if my kid was born with a square head, no neck and furry thumbs, it was mine! Then on the delivery, after my wife was involved in a car accident, when a whole trauma team couldn't get my little girl to breathe, and I was pinned against the wall by the crash cart, I couldn't even look away. My baby girl was born purple and the room grew quiet. Muconium Aspiration. They gently place het on my wife's chest and took a picture for us. Of my little, broken family. I couldn't even process what was happeneing. As the nurse was preparing to place her little body in the blanket and let us hold her again, she gasped and screamed, "I HAVE A PULSE!! I HAVE A PULSE!!!" They grabbed her again and went right back to work. Once she was stablized, they let me carry her right to the ICU. It was at that instant I felt the bond. The parental bond.

My eldest daughter just turned 12. And my next child, the one one whom, while my wife was pregnant with, I was secretly terrified that I could never love as much as the first one, well, she just turned 8, and I just couldn't love her any less!!! They truly are my angels and though don't make me more of a man, make me a much better person than I was before they came along.

It's not so much what you can teach your children, but rather what they can teach you too.

[hudson9]

Well Dream we thought about adoption,but you never new what you would get with one,so we decided too just be happy with our selves.

The reality is, you never know what you will get, even with a biological child. There are no guarantees in life. I raised a step-child from a toddler, and I loved him (and he me) as deeply as my biological children. He was healthy - one of my biological children had multiple medical issues. Any child can have issues, and you can be an good or bad parent equally to an adopted or biological child. Family is family, and I would encourage anyone who wants kids but can't have them biologically, to consider adopting a child who needs you as much as any child.

[TaylorMade]

Ty Mikey,we had decided a long time ago against adoption,is that selfish,i say it is not.It's just the way we decided to live. We just decided too love our 10 nieces and my nephew a lot more.

Just as good. My boyfriend is the same way. :) He loves his nephews and his friends kids as they were his own.

Makes you just as manly as Chuck Norris in my book. :p

*Taylor*

[Donkey_burger]

Children live what they learn from the people around them. I'm sure they feel the same about you. Your statement is an attack on all peoples children, mine included, and I take that as a very serious attack on me. Shame on you.

Goldenfinger, and everyone else who responded to Adam,
Put him on your ignore list, and be very, very grateful that he isn't a father.


Well Dream we thought about adoption,but you never new what you would get with one,so we decided too just be happy with our selves.

Yes, with adoption, there is more uncertainty--unless you go to all of the appointments, you don't REALLY know if the mom is getting pre-natal care. You also don't REALLY know if Mom is taking prenatal vitamins (if she is medically able to), if she is taking substances illegally, or against medical advice, or if she is so stressed out as to make the heart rate erratic (I'm talking about "I, for whatever reason, have my life threatened on a consistent basis" kinda stress).

I think this loss of control scares the pants out of you. Don't worry. I've thought of adoption as an option, too, and it scares me, too. However, after a few years of thinking about it, I have realized that kids who raised with both bio parents their whole childhood have become world-class billionaires, and they have become world-class terrorists. In other words, you don't know what to expect with kids, it doesn't matter if you adopt or not. You can't control your circumstances, just your reaction, ya know?

DB

[AdamKadmon43]

There ya go Tex. There's a prime example of a person's mentality level. :rolleyes:
Yer Cat

I do not understand why it is that you saw fit to call my mentality into question. I do not question your mentality ....well, maybe that one time on the "communicating with spirits" business which I thought was a bit looney.

But aside from that I have always tried my very best to be nice to you. I think the problem arose from my rather ill-conceived choice of words. Maybe I should have said "irritating and annoying little beasts" Instead of "irritating and annoying little bastards".

If I am going to explain myself, I have a great deal left to exposulate upon with this subject, but since I have managed to get myself amazingly drunk, I do not believe that my credibility is all that great right now. Not to mention the fact than I am becoming increasingly unable to type.

So for now... just suffice it say that it is probably not a real good idea to go about stepping on people's babys. They all think that babys are something special... I can not for the life of me understand why babys are so "special" considering the fact that approximately 221,000 of them are being born EVERY DAY on this planet. Yeah.. we sure need more "special" babys.



To be continued......

[AdamKadmon43]

Goldenfinger, and everyone else who responded to Adam,
Put him on your ignore list, and be very, very grateful that he isn't a father.

DB

And as for YOU.. I certainly hope that you continue to ignore me, because people who take such an attitude simply because they disagree with me are people with which I intend to have no discourse anyhow.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

But aside from that I have always tried my very best to be nice to you. I think the problem arose from my rather ill-conceived choice of words. Maybe I should have said "irritating and annoying little beasts" Instead of "irritating and annoying little bastards".


Yep, it was your wording as normal.
Cat

[AdamKadmon43]

A brief dissertation on the impractically of child bearing.

The desire to reproduce is strongly imbedded in most all life forms as a fundamental part of insuring the survival of the species. I certainly admit that is a good thing since without it none of us would be here having this discussion.

We love them and care for them and protect them solely because, at least for the most part, nature compels us to, and not because they are somehow or other just inherently loveable. They are, in fact, just the opposite. About the only thing really joyful thing about them (from a practical point of view) is that brief little period of time involved in getting them started. From there on it is all downhill.

Being fortunate enough to not having been born female, I have never experienced pregnancy. But I have it on good authority from a number of women that pregnancy is a real BITCH. You gradually grow from a beautiful, loving, rational person into something very unpleasant and pretty much undesirable. It is not uncommon for your ankles to swell up and for you to experience morning sickness and all sorts of other physical malfunctions.

Finally after about 9 months of this torture, the big day arrives.... usually at some very in-opportune time. They tell me that labor is the most agonizing experience that most women will ever experience. It causes you to want to kill the guy that got you into that state. But you endure it because nature has fooled you into believing that it is all worthwhile.

When all that is finally over, you find yourself to be the proud owner of an adorable sweet little bundle of joy, and everyone gets to say "Oh, my ... what a cute baby. It looks just like it's ..... whatever". Every time I hear that I nearly want to gag. Babies don't look like anyone and they are not cute. They are pink, bald-headed, ugly little things. If you opened your drapes one night and saw something like that staring at you through your window, you would flee in horror. But once again, nature fools us into thinking that they are cute and lovable in order to preserve the species by not simply pitching them out.

And now your troubles are just beginning because you have to raise the helpless thing. It is going to keep you awake all night for quite some time. It is going to get colickly and catch all sorts of diseases, and spit up all over you and soil itself all day..... every day. But that's ok because nature has conditioned you to handle all this whilst wearing a sweet maternal smile.

Eventually it gets mobil and you have to constantly chase it about to keep it from hurting itself or putting all sorts of stuff in its mouth. For the first few years it has no verifiable brain. Unlike most other vertebrates, they are not born knowing how to do anything. You have to teach them how to do everything from walking to talking to using a toilet. But that's ok, because nature has convinced you that they are "cute" and "sweet"

By the time they are grown, you have spent a fortune on stupid toys, clothing, medical treatment, food, education, etc. etc.I could go on into horror story of getting them through adolescence, but I think my point has been made. The best you can possibly hope for is that when you finally throw them out of the nest, they go on to live some semblance of normalcy and not become socio-paths, criminals, drug addicts, serial hatchet murderers, religious extremists or shoot up public places. And if you are really lucky, then maybe you won't get stuck having to raise their children.

We love and nurture and care for our children not out of any sense of practically, or because they are inherently loveable, but rather because nature compels us (at least most of us) to do so. But in order to do so, nature must cause us to temporarily lose our wits about things.

So please try to be more tolerant of those such as myself who choose not to have any children, but are still obliged to put up with and be tortured by the jittery, nervous, shrieking, irritating. little disease factories created by others.

[Doggie_Wood]

What a dick head :rolleyes:

Doggie :doggie:

[darkeyes]

Adam..Adam...*sighs*.. wot we gonna do wiv u ya daft bugga?

Wen me wos ver yung, me decided that kids wer not for me.. no way wos me ev gonna hav a child growin inside..an me growin 2 look like a whalie..go through childbirth an the agonies that entails.. an nev hav..an nev will.. Yet wen Kate asked me 2 'bout adoptin 'er elder daughter me jumped at the chance.. cos she is adorable.. trubble.. but adorable.. sat through the labour wen Kate wos havin 'er yunga daughter, an marvelled at the wonda a childbirth. Am not sayin it made me feel ne diff bout havin me own child sumday cos that wud b a lie. It jus won happen.. but it is a wonda.. an tho am unlikely 2 b able 2 adopt that lil girl as well, me thinks of 'er as my daughter as much as me dus a 'er elder sista.. k.. its jus a legal thing.. but its moren that.. cos we hav made the connection.. we hav bonded wiv each otha.. mayb not as if me wos ther natural mum, but if that is owt moren me feels for those 2.. then it mus b a truly amazin feelin..

Ya didn havta open ya cyber gob on this thread..it wos unnecessary an me thinks a lil hurtful.. is also immensely ill-mannered.. no 1 is condemnin ya for not havin or wantin 2 hav ya own children.. a few peeps hav condemned me in the past for that very thing.. but as a woman sum peeps, 1 auntie in partic, think its me duty an am less of a woman for a decision wich is nunna ther biz.. its ur choice as it wos mine.. but summa the things ya sed wer a tadge ova the score, unnecessary an insensitive.. me suggests ya keep the ole cyber lip zipped on this thread from now on cos nowt ya say has ne bearin on the thread except as hurtful gobshite...:rolleyes:

[AdamKadmon43]

Having gotten all that off my chest... I feel much better now.

So I will shut up.

[darkeyes]

.. is nice hun..am glad ya feel ev so much betta.. pity ya didn find sumwer more appropriate 2 get it all unloaded.. no wer else 2 rant? Ya knos how 2 start a thread as much as the next person.. :)

[texasman6172003]

To tell you the truth Franny hon,i am a bit surprised Drew did not delete any of his responses,mainly the 1st 1. Too me it ruffled my feathers,but i remained the bigger person and din't say a damn thing.Although i should have. But i want too thank each of you,y'all have given me a lot too consider on the Subject,and despite some responses it has actually helped me some..

[PolyLoveTriad]

Some of you know that my wife and i were unable too have kids. It has been stressful at times over the years.Been married for 30. I have gotten too feeling,some of you may think it is silly i don't know. But there are times i have felt like i am not much of a man because i am not a father. At times,i feel like i have let my Family down too. I know some people say you can not judge a man because he has no kids and is married or in a relationship. This has really troubled me at times. So what id like too hear from y'all is,does not having any kids make me less of a man than any one else. Id really appreciate some responses y'all. Thank You..:)

Due to cancer I had to have a hysterectomy and never had the chance to have children. Am I less of a woman because of this? What makes a woman? Or a man? I know all too well the heartache of not being able to have children. My husband and I were trying to conceive and I had been taking fertility drugs when all hell broke loose. I still long to have them but thats not how things worked out. That being said, I am still 100% woman. I am not defined as a woman by whether or not I have children or not. The same goes for you. Kids dont make you a man anymore than me saying meow makes me a cat. Some things you learn to deal with and move on, seems to me that once you move on youll be a much happier man :)

[PolyLoveTriad]

And oh, we have been recently looking into adoption of an older child recently. We figure lots of older kids out there who need homes, need to be loved as much as we need to love, so why not? It doesnt matter if people thought they were ours or not, all that matters is a child got a chance to be loved and cared for :)

[AdamKadmon43]

Just one more little thing before I shut up.

It did not escape my attention that they were so busy attacking ME, that they failed to address the logic of my argument.

OH, WELL... what else is new.

[AdamKadmon43]

To tell you the truth Franny hon,i am a bit surprised Drew did not delete any of his responses,mainly the 1st 1.

And just one more little thing....

If you are indeed bisexual, then you are outside of the social norm the same way that I am outside the social norm by not liking chidren. Only doubly so in my case.

So if Drew started deletely all non-agressive, non-threatening (but somewhat insensitive) material that were outside the social norm here then obviously this site would not exist. If you believe that sort of censorship is proper, then you are a bigger threat to humanity than I am.

Have a nice day.

[rissababynta]

And just one more little thing....

If you are indeed bisexual, then you are outside of the social norm the same way that I am outside the social norm by not liking chidren. Only doubly so in my case.

So if Drew started deletely all non-agressive, non-threatening (but somewhat insensitive) material that were outside the social norm here then obviously this site would not exist. If you believe that sort of censorship is proper, then you are a bigger threat to humanity than I am.

Have a nice day.

ADAM...shhhhhhhhh...while you're not too far deep :tongue:

[Long Duck Dong]

I never had any children.... and I never wanted any.

Quite simply because I can not stand to be around the annoying, irritating little bastards.

as a kid they set the pattern for adulthood..... strange that....

adam, kids do grow up and become adults, and the annoying lil bastards that were part of your generation are now the people you wanna shag.... gotta love the circle of life....

that aside, there are some people that are natural parents, some that have to work at being parents and some that just can not be or do not wanna be parents and in some cases, that can be better for the gene pool as a whole...

they say that the children are our future and that is true, why even the annoying lil bastards now, will be the nurses in the nurse home that wipe your ass and your nose as you are too infirm to do it yaself.... kinda like a ironic justice....

so love them or hate them, they may be annoying lil bastards, but adam, you are covering yourself and your parents under that remark, but yeah, some of us never change, do we ?

[12voltman59]

My real reason for electing to not have kids--is not because I hate kids--I think kids are great---but what I really rejected was not having kids--but opting into the way of life that you have to adopt yourself in order to "have the American Dream."

That is--in order to have your 2.5 kids, live in a house in a suburban plat, have all the toys and such that "you are supposed to have" and make sure that you are providing your family "the right sort of life" --you have to bascially sell your soul to big organizations----generally corporations, but it can be big government too if that is who you go to work for.

They expect you to basicallly give them your life for whatever it is they pay you and at the first chance they get----they dump people en mass.

I also feel sorry for kids these days---"they" tell you how competitive it is for kids to get into the best colleges so they can get the best jobs (so they can grow up to play the rat race game)----the kids not only have to have stellar grades---they have to have a portfolio of a laundry list of extra-curricular activites starting, it seems, in pre-school up through the day they graduate high school.

Jeez--the poor little buggers need to have a Blackberry to schedule them out to the last second of time, months in advance. It's take 'em to cheer leading or sports practices, games, etc; take 'em to debate team, science club, etc, etc, etc!!!

They get hours of homework to bring home each night on top of all the extracurricular activities they are supposed to be doing!!!

Even during the summer, its the same damn thing!!

Today--we simply cannnot leave kids alone so "kids can be kids!!"

I say--I decided that I wasn't having kids not because I hated them--its because I love them so much--I wasn't going to put them (or me) through all the BS that the world says you and they have to do now when you do have the

[PolyLoveTriad]

Not all kids are like that Volt... its all in "HOW" you raise them. Take my sister in laws kids for instance. 5 kids from the ages of 7 to 17. None of them have cell phones. They have all been home schooled so they didnt get into the "I have to have this and that" Some of them do sports some of them dont, they left it up to the kids to decide what they wanted to do. The 17 yr old is graduating this year and will be going to college, which she has already applied to and been accepted at with full scholarship. She will get her first cell phone when she leaves so her parents can keep in touch. They dress how they want, act how they want and you would be fairly pressed to find a better group of kids. Theyre polite, considerate, intelligent children.

Now onto the American dream. I always thought that "American Dream" Was to be able to have the right to live however you want to live. Freedom of choice of religion, or not. Freedom to live however you want, in the city or the country, in New York City or Weed California. To go to whichever school you want, choose what degree and have whatever career you wanted, or not. The right to be BI, gay, lesbian, straight, cd, trans...

Seems to me that what some people considered the American dream, the 2.5 kids, house in the suburbs, etc has long gone out the window decades ago and that you are in fact already living the American dream. Kids are what YOU make of them. They reflect us. They dont make the choices growing up, we do.

[darkeyes]

Kids are what YOU make of them. They reflect us. They dont make the choices growing up, we do.

I've never been absolutely clear just what the American dream is.. as best I can tell it means different things to different people, and I don't think that is a bad thing. Everyone has a dream no matter from whence they come. I have many, but am not American and my dreams are personal and unique to me. I have often written about my dreams in these forums and probably will do so again. Buying into a dream which is not our own is a moulding of ourselves to the conformity of society. Thats not what I want for me or my partner or our children. I want us to have our own dreams not as a family group, but as individually unique human beings with ambitions we wish to see brought to fruition.

Kids should never be what WE make of them. What a parents job is NOT is to make them little versions of ourselves. Our job apart from nurture and care, is to prepare them for a lifetime, to make the choices they wish to make based on their own belief. Of course our job is to guide them, but not to indoctrinate. We provide them with the knowledge to march ahead and achieve their dreams. We do not tell them this is how it is, and you had better like it or lump it. Too many parents drum their own standards into their children and expect them to adhere to those standards without question. We should encourage them to question why we do as we do, and why we think as we think, believe as we believe, and to enter into debate with us when they think WE are wrong, every bit as much as we insist on debating with them when we believe they are making a mistake. Our job is to prepare them for life by asking questions of everyone and everything.

What a parent's job is to prepare their children to be what THEY make of themselves, unfettered by doctrines and moralities that parents have told them they must never deviate from.

[tenni]

darkeyes
I think that I understand what you are aiming at but I'm going to slightly disagree with you about standards and children. Kids are capable of thinking and analysing at certain ages and not others. Kids actually like to know their boundaries even if it is only to react or rebel against those standards. I believe that a parent needs to establish certain standards and morals for their kids at the younger ages. As the child matures the strategies should shift. Although discussing the reasons why certain standards are there, it is not all that successful in the younger years because their cognitive skills are not developed sufficiently. Sure, they may be able to give back the reason but cognitively they are not really capable to apply them to other situations all the time. It won't hurt to give the reason though as long as it is kept simple and short. Later, more in depth conversations will work. The first three to four years are very important years in a person's life but the child is not really capable to think like an adult. How the parent lives their own life is the most important though as the modelling is very important. There is no one answer or approach because they are individuals with varying factors within themselves. I agree that guiding them is the right approach but whether you want to agree or not you are modelling all kinds of behaviour and strategies for your child. Morals will be taught to the child even if the parent tries to be neutral.

[darkeyes]

Tenni.. every child is influenced by her or his parents. Most people give their children their morality and their ways of thinking. We do not adhere to such a way of raising our children. Certainly our sense of morality and our standards are the starting point with our children. The rules we set are our rules which we think are a good way for us and the children to live. Yet we have discussed with the elder girl (11) almost anything you care to mention and we have instilled in her that our morality and standards are not set in stone. They are ours, no one elses and are always for debate. We have told her that she will as she grows develop her own sense of morality and her own way of living. We encourage her to do that in her life as far as she is able. We do not deal in certainties for all. House rules are always up for amendment, change or individually,abolition. These rules have been amended, changed and, twice individual rules abolished as a result of how she thinks and how she sees our family life and her own life.

She has been told that she is living her life and while we think we have a decent way of living, it will be up to her how she lives that life, and that our way is notg the only way. Certainly our sexuality is no problem for her, and she knows that most people do not live in same sex relationships and the last thing we would ever do is impose upon her, our sexualities. I am a lesbian, Kate is bisexual, but so far so good, the lassie is developing completely differently from us in that every week or two we have the latest bf round for tea. She shows no interest in her own sex and that, from our point of view, is just dandy. She is however only 11, not yet at High School, and whatever her sexuality ultimately is, good for her.

Everything is up for discussion at home. Anything she is unhappy with, but she knows that not everything will be changed. Only if we believe a change to be for the better or at least no worse do we ever agree. Yet she is told that while we do not agree, that does not make her wrong necessarily, although sometimes she patently is, it means for the good of family harmony and for her own welfare (in our opinion) we are unable to agree to it.

The younger girl is a more complex matter in that her father takes an active interest in his daughters welfare and as far as possible we try to take into account his wishes on many things. However she is not yet 3 but as she grows we intend to raise her with the same consideration as her elder sister.

We may insist on certain things at home, but we do not insist on our children sharing our sexualities, our morality, our politics, our athiesm or agnosticism(Kate is agnostic), or in the way we live our lives. They are being raised to question everything and everyone, and as they mature they will, we hope develop into well and truly their own person, with their own opinions beliefs and not be simply clones of ourselves.

We are not saying it is a perfect way to raise children.. it is however our way.. so far things have gone ok tyvm. We have a daughter with a fine, very supple and inquisitive mind. She is nothing if not opinionated but not in a nasty way. I only hope the younger child is half so questioning. We are pretty confident that they will when they too are adults, that for good or ill, they will certainly be their own people, which had better not mean them supporting a certain football club from the other side of the city!;)

...sowwy Texie Wexie..me seems 2 hav hi jacked ya lil thread.. sowwy..huge kissie wissies 2 luffly man wiv dead squirrel unda 'is nose.. muuaaaaahhhh!:tong:

[tenni]

Darkeyes
I think from what I read that you are doing a commendable job with your children. Now back to our regular programming:bigrin:

[Darkloli]

:2cents:

a man defines himself not with the dime in his pocket, or children he may bore, but in how he treats himself and those dearest to him. only you define what makes you the man you are. all the best