Psychological Conditioning

[xtopherix]

I'm hoping I'm not alone in this, but coming from a Catholic family that held quite strongly the position that any sort of sexual behavior that wasn't male/female was inherently immoral, I didn't a lot of positive messages about my sexual interests. My parent's weren't particularly conservative, but I remember being a child and getting caught looking at some pictures of naked guys on the internet. After coming up with an excuse to the effect of "I was comparing myself to the other guys," I had to sit and listen to him talk to me about how relieved he was that his son turned out normal. Any time I showed an interest in guys, I was always somehow punished for that behavior. I was also hit with a load of vicarious conditioning anytime I watched tv or movies,when a gay male (because bisexual males seemed to be some mythical creature that no one really talked about) was depicted in the media, he was usually being ridiculed for some reason by his peers. I think a lot of this psychological "trauma" carried on into adulthood because even after I had finally considered the fact that I was bi, I had, and sometimes still have, a lot of hangups when trying to express myself physically to another male. I think that all the time I spent as a youth doing things like training myself not to have an erection in the lockeroom have stuck with me and give me very undesirable problems in the bedroom that prevent me sometimes from giving myself up totally to my partner. Has anyone had any similar experiences?

[void()]

Void belches. "Excuse me. Good root beer." :)

There are many here and throughout the world/s sharing your experience. You are unique like everyone else.

Void tips his hat. "Welcome to our lovely tea party. Is it your un-birthday, too?"

And yes, I face a rough time of it as well. We all do. It is how you choose to respond to it that sets you apart to be out standing in your field. I'm still not quite sure how that's proactive, as you are responding. I did ask three psychological professionals, they assured me it was proactive but didn't explain how.

Void wanders along whistling a tune "never walk alone ..."

[Donkey_burger]

Here's hoping that someday, you will be dealing with several small issues instead of one big issue along with several small issues.

DB :bipride:

[Realist]

I think anyone, who was raised with parents, or guardians, who insist in instilling their morals in us, anyone will be subject to having second thoughts.

I know it took a long time for me to develop some sort of calmness, regarding my "Perverted" interests. It wasn't easy being bisexual, at a time when every other pressure involving a adolescent boy was heaped upon me, too.

I'm sure we all go through some trauma, as we try to find ourselves. Not only do we have to contend with the pressures others put on us, but there's our own doubts, fears and desires to deal with, too. Hopefully, we can sort it all out and continue our life's journey with a modicum of ease.

I know that I'm finally at a good, peaceful, place in my life now...... and I'm OK.

[FalconAngel]

Unfortunately, orthodoxic religions tend to be like this.

But take heart, if you wish to follow Christianity, then look around your area or do a web search for churches that are GLBT friendly. Those churches have managed to remove the sexuality-based drama, at least for their congregations.

They are out there.

If, on the other hand, you are too put off by it from you past experiences, then there are other paths more accepting of GLBT folks, that are not orthodoxic; none of the sexuality-based drama created by doctrine.

Of course, there is also the choice of no religious path, too.

Good luck on your search.......wherever it leads you.

[elian]

Yes, absolutely - there have been times I've held back and chided myself for having feelings about same sex attraction. going "against the grain" of society creates stress and problems for some people.

As much as I might like to think life would be simpler without these feelings to deny loving someone is like asking a wall not to stand up. One of the things participating on this site has taught me is that things are not always simple black and white.

It became clear to me at a young age that the faith my parents practiced paid lip service to Jesus' "Love One Another" commandment, but between the lines you could still see the prejudice and presumption. The priest would talk about how Jesus was a "poor carpenter" - but the priest was wearing fine robes, swinging a gold canter of incense around. Who Jesus was and who these people were seemed to be two different things.

The idea of religion as something "exclusive" hurt people and I felt in my heart that wasn't the spirit of what Jesus was trying to convey. I decided that religion should be "inclusive", that if God gave us free will we should be free to ask questions without fear of retribution and that the world is full of amazing diversity that should be celebrated instead of feared.

At that point in my life I have to admit a little jealousy because I wanted nothing more in my life then to believe in an all loving FATHER - it would've been so easy to give in. But as an independent only child, knowing that they wouldn't accept me for who I was if I was honest about loving same gender I started to look at anything and everything for spiritual meaning in my life.

Christians say "We are all the body of God" and "We are made in his image" Some of the more heretical old Jewish beliefs go even farther and say that each one of us is literally a spark of the divine - connected to each other, and to the divine.

Buddhists think this world is creation expressing itself in countless different forms, and learning in the process.

A Humanist will tell you that they believe in the positive potential of the human spirit...that they see "God" when they look into the face of another human being.

An agnostic will tell you that they believe in what they know.

For not believing in a God Atheists preach a lot about science, truth, facts and "reality" - whatever that means.

Native Americans seem to have a much more personal connection, viewing all of us in an interdependent web - they respect you - even if you don't respect yourself - you are a part of creation.

Personally, I don't believe any of these to be "wrong" - they are simply different perspectives and I believe that they complement each other. I do have an issue though when certain folks start using the ideology of their faith to impose their own personal prejudices on others for something the other person cannot change.

Sadly this is unavoidable because EVERYBODY has prejudices - it's a part of being human and living with a biological neural network that constantly forces us to make binary decisions.

In some cases it's good to be wired that way, if you see a spider and you have to think quickly a binary decision is good - but when you have a choice on a touch screen ballot machine that says "Approve Gay Marriage" - "Yes" or "No" - there's no opportunity to really consider the consequences of that action.

I'm not so sure that an all-loving God would hate its own creation, or itself - I can understand some of the laws in the Bible - the holiness code - written for Jews in the old Testament as they are trying to resettle and build a society - rules are important - but that was a VERY long time ago. Technically it's a sin to eat shellfish, but a lot of people still do it anyway.

It's a lot easier to be afraid and slam the door shut then to open it and walk through into the light and say "Hello" - making a personal connection with another person is the key to overcoming prejudice and fear.

Hopefully one day people will take the time to appreciate diversity,. Until then I will continue to tell myself the story of the Great Mother - who does not SELL her children into bondage..but loves all.

I finally settled on a Unitarian Universalist church, it was about the most "disorganized" of all of the organized religions I could find - there is a more specifically Christian denomination, "MCC" that is accepting of GLBT folks as well.

-E


I'm hoping I'm not alone in this, but coming from a Catholic family that held quite strongly the position that any sort of sexual behavior that wasn't male/female was inherently immoral, I didn't a lot of positive messages about my sexual interests. My parent's weren't particularly conservative, but I remember being a child and getting caught looking at some pictures of naked guys on the internet. After coming up with an excuse to the effect of "I was comparing myself to the other guys," I had to sit and listen to him talk to me about how relieved he was that his son turned out normal. Any time I showed an interest in guys, I was always somehow punished for that behavior. I was also hit with a load of vicarious conditioning anytime I watched tv or movies,when a gay male (because bisexual males seemed to be some mythical creature that no one really talked about) was depicted in the media, he was usually being ridiculed for some reason by his peers. I think a lot of this psychological "trauma" carried on into adulthood because even after I had finally considered the fact that I was bi, I had, and sometimes still have, a lot of hangups when trying to express myself physically to another male. I think that all the time I spent as a youth doing things like training myself not to have an erection in the lockeroom have stuck with me and give me very undesirable problems in the bedroom that prevent me sometimes from giving myself up totally to my partner. Has anyone had any similar experiences?

[elian]

I found this series of videos quite interesting:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch.html

I thought Margaret Atwood and Jeanette Winterson would be great fun to talk to at a party - I thought the other videos had value as well.

For my own belief once i stopped thinking of the divine in terms of a dominating parent and subservient child relationship and started thinking of it more along the lines of a loving partner relationship my perception of spirituality got a lot better. Some people might say that the whole belief is a fictional fallacy, maybe they are right. What can I tell you? - I like the story WITH the tiger, better than the story without one.

[xtopherix]

My faith came into question when I was very young, and it seemed to me to that it wouldn't make sense for a creative force in the universe to condemn his/her own creations. That's when I decided Catholicism wasn't for me. I suppose I'm a self-guided Pagan now. I don't "worship" anything, but I give respect and gratitude to the mother goddess which I interpret to be the embodiment of the earth. I see sexuality as an expression of love and a celebration of creation in whatever form. I think that loving each other and using what we're given in a positive way is as good as any church service. To me, to give back as much as I take from this world is my ultimate purpose. And that's a little about my faith. =) I think Unitarians rock btw

[citystyleguy]

'tis a pity that organized religion can deliver such trauma to someone as you experienced; i did not suffer that particular ugliness, as i had to survive my old man, and my parents marriage. didnt do the ugliness that was delivered up to you, so i will leave it to others to offer up more direct suggestion to come to terms.

however, having said that, i did have to survive my trauma, much as anyone has to for their particular situation. what i can offer, is to confront it, come to terms by whatever route, and move on; no one can sit still and expect to overcome the hardship, it has to be dealt with, and then walk into the future built on your own strengths.

best of luck for you, and may you achieve your corner of peace of mind, body, and soul!

marc

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Native Americans seem to have a much more personal connection, viewing all of us in an interdependent web - they respect you - even if you don't respect yourself - you are a part of creation.

Beautifully said Sweetheart, and quite right. I'm not sure All Nations hold this to be true, but I know many Native American cultures do hold this belief. Along with "Respect all who crosses your path, until you have reason Not to. Harm none and cause no harm to befall an innocent"

Good words to live by...if you are GLBT or straight..:}
Cat

[FalconAngel]

The real problem, as I said before, is doctrine.

With the organized business of orthodoxic religion, it is about keeping the money flowing in. Doctrine that does not change is the method that works best for that.

Each religion that can find those with weak enough wills, to follow blindly, builds the congregation, so you have the added chances of growing families that follow, which creates more people to give tithes and donations to that "church".

The down side of doctrine is that you cannot change it, even when it has outlived it's usefulness. And when there are those that begin to disagree with doctrine, they break away to either other religions or other churches whose doctrine more closely follows their own.

Of course, that is the nice thing about Wicca, Neo-Wicca, Paganism, Shamanism and Neo-Paganism; No doctrine to follow because nature has no doctrine. It flows and evolves, allowing it's practice to bring you closer to deity.
Of course there are exceptions to even that rule; Even in the greater Pagan community (which encompasses all nature religions) there are nut-jobs that want to control and make money off of it.
Folks like the Correlians with their "merit badges" and robes who's colors denote degree/elevations, charge for learning with their online "witch school" and have become quite entrapped by their group's doctrine.
You don't want to hear their latest idiocy about 2012.
They seem to be deeply emplaced in a lot of UU churches, at least they are down here. Not to say anything bad about the UU, since we have met a lot of very likable folks there.

Then there are the "Christo-Pagans", who are attempting to mix 2 diametrically opposed religions. Yeah, like that isn't a train wreck waiting to happen. The two are incompatible without radically changing one or the other to an unrecognizable version of what it was.

But then there are members of the Voudun; they charge because, traditionally, the practicioners of Voudun have no other occupation. Not always the case in these days, but still part of their tradition.

So no religion is without it's crackpots. It is mostly a matter of each person sorting the wheat from the chaff in any religion that they wish to follow. Doctrine doesn't really allow for much of that.
It is practice that matters. Practice that is part of what one does each and every day of their lives.

[Donkey_burger]

[snip]

I'm sure we all go through some trauma, as we try to find ourselves. Not only do we have to contend with the pressures others put on us, but there's our own doubts, fears and desires to deal with, too. Hopefully, we can sort it all out and continue our life's journey with a modicum of ease.
[snip]

I'm surprised not everybody qualifies to be diagnosed with something cus of the trauma that comes with finding yourself in this society.

DB :bipride:

[alex0770]

My parents were also catholic, and they never talked about sex. The few times they did, they stressed it was something you do with your spouse after you're married, when you're in love. So, I always thought I had to be in love in order to have sex, which is a weird sort of psychological conditioning. It sounds healthy and positive, but I really believed it. I had girl friends in college that I thought I was in love with, and we had sex. Later, when I had sex with guys - I wasn't in love with them, and I wondered if I could ever actually love a guy.

[bicurcple]

I know exactly what you mean, even though I find the idea of giving another man a blow job or having another man enter me I feel extremely nervous and refined feeling in the back of my mind that it is wrong because of what has been taught to be socially acceptable.

[Seeking4664]

Your "story" sounds quite similiar to my own. Except I grew up Baptist and I'm female. But from early on I remember it being drilled into my head by my church and my parents that my thoughts and feelings about other females was wrong. It even went so far as to tell me that masterbation was wrong. Yet my question was always how can something that feels so good and is harming no one be wrong? I am attracted to females and its only been the last six months or so that I've really decided to forget what has been drummed into my head and explore what may be out there for me. Yet I find it hard to let go and truly do and be what I want. Each day I find myself a bit more "me". This is a learning process I guess. I wish you luck my friend and I pray you find whatever makes you happy.
Jess