Is it pertinent now?

[FalconAngel]

A friend of mine sent me this link to a cartoon created in 1948.

http://nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com/2009/09/this-cartoon-seemed-far-fetched-in-1948.html

At the time, it was not considered pertinent.

What do we all think now?

[bigbadmax]

i believe that most of cartoons content is pertinent...however the perv in me would prefer the tonic to be called "jism" bet it tastes better as well.

sorry, serious subject but cant help putting a funny slant on it

it does raise point of people taking their freedoms for granted etc, something people tend to forget

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I have to whole heartedly agree with you, Max. Too many folks take their personal freedoms for granted, and cant really see what they have under their very noses. Too bad they cant seem to remember who paid the prices for their freedoms either...
Cat.

[brutal_priestess]

So...have all swallowed the ISM? (or at least a large majority of we Americans?)

[FalconAngel]

So...have all swallowed the ISM? (or at least a large majority of we Americans?)

Pretty much.
And those of us who haven't are called "unpatriotic", or worse.

[TwylaTwobits]

When the cartoon came out it was heavily flavored against one particular ism... communism. Now we look at our society and see that we are headed down a path of marxism to say the least. Government is getting involved more and more and taking away more rights than it gives or protects. Here in Kentucky we had a nice cash crop in Tobacco. Now most of the bases have been taken away by the state and some farmers are actually paid not to grow tobacco.

You have states where natural resources are being used to the limit and the practice of searching for renewable sources of energy is slowly becoming more popular.

We have higher taxes and higher unemployment and more of a deficit to overcome than we have had in many previous years.

We are falling behind on internal matters because of external concerns in other countries. That is one of the things that makes the Tea Party so seductive and yet so dangerous.

[darkeyes]

....we look at our society and see that we are headed down a path of marxism to say the least.

...God Twyla.. luffya dearly butya don haff talk such rot:tong:... but will tellya this.. if it wer true ya wudn get me blubbin ova it...:bigrin:

...found the cartoon jus a lil twee an a lotta bollox but gud fun...

[Lady_Passion]

Was just telling someone, the U.S. is so far gone I don't know if we'll ever see the light of day again regarding freedoms this country was originally founded on. On the other hand, the manner in which we established ourselves here may have been karmic.

Do I sound like a broken record yet?


re: unemployment... here it's being said unemployment is down. However that is based on unemployment claims filed. There seems to be no number gauging real unemployment figures that would include those out of work and ineligible for unemployment.

[12voltman59]

I was reading some of the comments on that site to the cartoon---and many expressed concerns about government being too big--but as I have said before----to me--- I say that we are not simply in danger of government by itself becoming too big and too powerful----what we have to most be vigilent about is to curtail the merging of interests and power of both government and business that is too big, too powerful and unresponsive to the needs, interests and directives of "We the People."

That is the real danger in this time----that big government and big business/big money interests come to control things far too much.

This is why, chief among my reasons for not being fond of modern conservatism---it is only focused on the "dangers of big government" but turns a blind eye to the dangers of big business/big money---in fact--it gives them a pass and makes them out to be so great when history clearly shows--and even the reality of many peoples lives today--like those people I met in my recent trip to the heart of the West Virginia coal fields who know what it is like to come face-to-face with the unholy alliance of big government and big business interests.
The same thing goes for those who face economic devastation thanks to the seemingly unfixable oil leaks out in the Gulf of Mexico.

[Lady_Passion]

"Remember, remember the 5th of November, the gun powder treason and plot. I know of no reason why the gun powder treason should ever be forgot."

[void()]

"here it's being said unemployment is down. However that is based on unemployment claims filed."

Same here. I think it may be a ploy. Shame in this case a placebo will not work.

[TwylaTwobits]

...God Twyla.. luffya dearly butya don haff talk such rot:tong:... but will tellya this.. if it wer true ya wudn get me blubbin ova it...:bigrin:

...found the cartoon jus a lil twee an a lotta bollox but gud fun...

Sorry Fran but living here, it's not rot, it's the truth. As more and more the government gets into businesses and after bailing them out tells them who can and can't be in charge. A health care plan that will penalize those without insurance while providing coverage for "all". A government that is more and more into removing fundamental rights we have enjoyed for years. Privacy is a thing of the past and if you think that the founding fathers ever envisioned a society where you can't even fart without a ticket for pollution think again. That's where we are heading. And I don't see a way to stop it. It's a boat heading downstream and no one on board has a paddle or the strength to start rowing upstream.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I am having some of my students read Animal Farm right now. One of them says, the other day after completing the book, "Mr. H? Every time they say that the animals must give up something, or work harder and it's for the "greater good" of the farm. And every time it winds up hurting them. Isn't Obama saying that we should all buy health insurance for the 'greater good' the same thing as when Napoleon told the Hens to give up their eggs for the greater good? And isn't making it a crime not to buy insurance exactly like when Napoleon cut the hen's rations for saying no?"

Unfortunately, I couldn't say yes, as I have serious ethical problems with inserting my own political views into the classroom. I did, however, smile broadly and told him to continue to observe the world around him.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

I watched this cartoon and saw the past 15 months in stark detail.

The Obama administration taking over banks, telling privately owned companies what they can pay their employees, owning private industries outright, setting up email addresses for neighbors to report on their neighbors, forcing us to purchase a product we might not want and the list goes on and on.

And now we are going to raise taxes, and create new ones (the VAT comes to mind) rather than doing things to get the economy back in shape? Yes, we are going to ensure that as much of the nation as possible is beholden to the government for their very subsistence, and at the same time we are going to ensure that companies go to other nations where it is cheaper to do business for their manufacturing, thus ensuring even more people on the government rolls.

I'll note too that in the cartoon the benefits of our system that were listed have eroded as well. The educational system is in dire straights, not because of local districts going out of control, but because the federal controls are ludicrous.

Yes, it's pertinent. Sadly. And yes, the path is one towards the only way that Marxism has been seen on this earth. No, I don't care that you might be offended that it isn't what the German professor might have intended. Every time it is tried, it ends the same way. Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. And it is exactly what our current administration intends, and if it isn't, then they are morons who have no clue about the consequences of their actions. I don't, quite frankly, know which is worse: intentionally driving us towards a Marxist society, or good intentions run amok. But, doesn't really matter in the long run, does it?

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

"Remember, remember the 5th of November, the gun powder treason and plot. I know of no reason why the gun powder treason should ever be forgot."

You are supporting terrorism? Interesting.

Pasa

[Lady_Passion]

^ More along the lines of The Orange Revolution :.)

V for Vendetta wasn't about terrorism though. It was about fighting back and making change happen.

[Pasadenacpl2]

V, in V for Vendetta was a terrorist.

So was Guy Fawkes.

Pasa

[Lady_Passion]

Then I suppose that makes most Americans who aggressively stand up for themselves terrorists, which coincidentally the Patriot Act(s) would confirm.

I stand corrected :.)

If things were so bad as they were in "V for Vendetta", don't you think someone, I would think many people, would eventually be pushed to their utmost limits to enact drastic change?

Albeit somewhat more passive, isn't terrorism also what our governments do when they squash the life out of people to keep them down, weak, ignorant and unable to effectively fight back?

As it is, when I look around every day witnessing what we accept or ignore, I'm surprised that I'm surprised that we do nothing about it :./

[Pasadenacpl2]

Then I suppose that makes most Americans who aggressively stand up for themselves terrorists, which coincidentally the Patriot Act(s) would confirm.

Americans who stand up for themselves do not blow up buildings. V did, twice. Guy Fawkes attempted to do so. To equate Americans to stand up and protest to V or to Guy Fawkes is to do a grave injustice to those Americans.


Albeit somewhat more passive, isn't terrorism also what our governments do when they squash the life out of people to keep them down, weak, ignorant and unable to effectively fight back?

As it is, when I look around every day witnessing what we accept or ignore, I'm surprised that I'm surprised that we do nothing about it :./

No, it's not terrorism. It's Marxism (the government control of the people with the lie that we will each be taken care of by the fed), it's fascism (government control of private industry), and a few more 'isms' that are running around out there that enable the fed to tell us what to eat, how to eat, what to ingest in any manner, how to fuel our cars, how to do any number of things, really.

We agree on your last statement. We don't do anything about it. We keep electing liberal leaders who do this to us. The conservative ones are only slightly less so (they only want to control the bedroom and the schools). We don't do much about it. And we won't as long as we can keep getting our cars, our Hollywood films delivered to our doors, etc...

Even as bad as it gets here, we don't go blowing up the capital building, or any building. We vote. We get on TV (any one can own a TV station now), we get on the internet and create new ways of disseminating information. As bad as things are (and they are bad), we are still the most free people on earth and with the internet, we are even more free to express ourselves than ever before.

Pasa

[Lady_Passion]

Americans who stand up for themselves do not blow up buildings. V did, twice. Guy Fawkes attempted to do so. To equate Americans to stand up and protest to V or to Guy Fawkes is to do a grave injustice to those Americans.
Guy Fawkes was a soldier. And American soldiers blow up buildings and kill innocent people every day, not to stand up for ourselves and freedoms, but for corporate welfare kings.



No, it's not terrorism. It's Marxism (the government control of the people with the lie that we will each be taken care of by the fed), it's fascism (government control of private industry), and a few more 'isms' that are running around out there that enable the fed to tell us what to eat, how to eat, what to ingest in any manner, how to fuel our cars, how to do any number of things, really.

We agree on your last statement. We don't do anything about it. We keep electing liberal leaders who do this to us. The conservative ones are only slightly less so (they only want to control the bedroom and the schools). We don't do much about it. And we won't as long as we can keep getting our cars, our Hollywood films delivered to our doors, etc...

Even as bad as it gets here, we don't go blowing up the capital building, or any building. We vote. We get on TV (any one can own a TV station now), we get on the internet and create new ways of disseminating information. As bad as things are (and they are bad), we are still the most free people on earth and with the internet, we are even more free to express ourselves than ever before.

Pasa

I agree except that we do blow stuff up without just cause. Just it isn't publicized much if at all locally. Most of us don't hear about the 'terrorism' our government perpetrates unless it's from soldiers who've seen it and or participated.

Ever follow Dahr Jamal (http://dahrjamailiraq.com/)? And a lot of people haven't noticed how many journalists have been lost overseas in very questionable circumstances since 9/11.

Or, visit a veteran's facility and be a fly on the wall. You will learn things none of us wants to admit to or even consider *sigh*

[Pasadenacpl2]

Guy Fawkes was a soldier. And American soldiers blow up buildings and kill innocent people every day, not to stand up for ourselves and freedoms, but for corporate welfare kings.

This is not true in the slightest.

First, Guy Fawkes was a terrorist who attempted to blow up Parliament and to assassinate King James I. He did not do so under any orders as a soldier, but as part of a plot to overthrow the government.

Second, our soldiers act under orders. You might disagree with those orders, but that isn't the point. As a veteran, I'll ask you not to equate our soldiers to terrorists.

Third, corporate welfare kings? Really? Can you clearly, and with some proof behind your statements, show this?


I agree except that we do blow stuff up without just cause. Just it isn't publicized much if at all locally. Most of us don't hear about the 'terrorism' our government perpetrates unless it's from soldiers who've seen it and or participated.

Ever follow Dahr Jamal (http://dahrjamailiraq.com/)? And a lot of people haven't noticed how many journalists have been lost overseas in very questionable circumstances since 9/11.

Or, visit a veteran's facility and be a fly on the wall. You will learn things none of us wants to admit to or even consider *sigh*

I do visit veteran's facilities here in Houston. I am a war veteran. My brother is serving his third tour in Iraq as we speak, and some of my best friends are vets who served in the Gulf recently. I think it is safe to say they would each take issue with your statements. I've spoken with one of those friends about Dahr Jamal previously. The opinion of this 'journalist' was not favorable in the slightest. Talk about yellow journalism at its finest.

I can see that our worldview is so different as to make reasonable discourse unlikely. You equate lawful soldiering to terrorism, and our government to terrorists. I cannot fathom how one can come to this conclusion, but you have. It will make reasonable discourse challenging, as I cannot respect the sort of mentality that would support such a viewpoint.

Pasa

[Lady_Passion]

This is not true in the slightest.

First, Guy Fawkes was a terrorist who attempted to blow up Parliament and to assassinate King James I. He did not do so under any orders as a soldier, but as part of a plot to overthrow the government.
Guy Fawkes is historically noted as a soldier.



Second, our soldiers act under orders. You might disagree with those orders, but that isn't the point. As a veteran, I'll ask you not to equate our soldiers to terrorists.
Why I Oppose The US War On Terror (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9213)

Thats just one brief current account. There are many, past and present.


Third, corporate welfare kings? Really? Can you clearly, and with some proof behind your statements, show this?
War Is A Racket (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9215)

... though the current state of affairs does it for me.



I do visit veteran's facilities here in Houston. I am a war veteran. My brother is serving his third tour in Iraq as we speak, and some of my best friends are vets who served in the Gulf recently. I think it is safe to say they would each take issue with your statements. I've spoken with one of those friends about Dahr Jamal previously. The opinion of this 'journalist' was not favorable in the slightest. Talk about yellow journalism at its finest.
Ok. I understand Dahr Jamal to be fairly well respected among peers and nothing he's put out there has been definitively refuted. I've been following his posts for about 10 years. I've found what he reports to be in line with what ends up coming out in the US after a period of time.



I can see that our worldview is so different as to make reasonable discourse unlikely. You equate lawful soldiering to terrorism, and our government to terrorists. I cannot fathom how one can come to this conclusion, but you have. It will make reasonable discourse challenging, as I cannot respect the sort of mentality that would support such a viewpoint.

Pasa
I'm not trying to gain anyone's respect. I just speak my mind and encourage everyone to. That's what we're SUPPOSED to be doing and really why we have a military :.)

We all have our opinions and arrive at them however we will. I suppose all that's left is to agree to disagree based on what we think we know?

[darkeyes]

Sorry Fran but living here, it's not rot, it's the truth. As more and more the government gets into businesses and after bailing them out tells them who can and can't be in charge. A health care plan that will penalize those without insurance while providing coverage for "all". A government that is more and more into removing fundamental rights we have enjoyed for years. Privacy is a thing of the past and if you think that the founding fathers ever envisioned a society where you can't even fart without a ticket for pollution think again. That's where we are heading. And I don't see a way to stop it. It's a boat heading downstream and no one on board has a paddle or the strength to start rowing upstream.

None of that is Marxism Twyla.. nowhere near.. none of it is even the cover of the book..

...and after billions of dollars of taxpayers money you dont believe the government should have any say in how the businesses that are eating that money should be run? And who should run them? That isnt Marxism either by the way.. nowhere near.. and not even the authors name on the cover of the book.. and on healthcare..Marxism wouldnt touch what Obama has put in train with a barge pole.. and dont be misled about Privacy.. Marxism is not about invading privacy or big brother or animal farm such as Pasa seems to think.. its about freeing people and getting them to work for the greater good.. if I thought the US was beginning to move toward Marxism.. in its proper form.. empowering all of the people not just a few as is its intention... I would be the first to ring out the cheers.. but I see no hint of it..

..what people have done in the name of Marxism is the crime.. from Lenin, to Stalin to Mao.. and for all my admiration of the man.. to Fidel.. very little of what they did can be called Marxist..

[TwylaTwobits]

Fran we can disagree on this all we want. I see a lot of people who would love to see America fall, without realizing some Americans know we already have. We owe more to China than we can make up with discounts in trade tarrifs in the next two hundred years. We continue to send aid to other countries and neglect the people in this country who badly need assistance. We turn away from traditional crops and begin looking for other sources of fuel and food. We are slowly handing out pieces of America's soul as markers around the world. Sooner or later the world will come calling for payment, and America can't make it.

[darkeyes]

Then don't misrepresent that as something it isnt Twyla.. your country and mine suffers from corrupt rotting socio/economic/political models.. and mine is about to get much worse... and yours hardly any better.. don't blame Marx for any of it.. cos he has precious little to do with it..

[TwylaTwobits]

Fran, we are heading for Marxism here and then straight down the road to Communism, Marxism perverted to the nth degree. You may have a pure view of what Karl Marx tried to set in motion, but it's been clouded for years by corrupt politicians. Did America learn from their mistakes? No. It's been said often if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.
Found the letter sent to me by my friend.


The article below was written by Stanislav Mishin, a blogger andcolumnist for the Russian newspaper Pravda. "American capitalism gone with a whimper . . . . ." It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people. True, the situation has been well prepared on and off for the past century, especially the past twenty years. The initial testing grounds was conducted upon our Holy Russia and a bloody test it was. But we Russians would not just roll over and give up our freedoms and oursouls, no matter how much money Wall Street poured into the fists ofthe Marxists. Those lessons were taken and used to properly prepare the Americanpopulace for the surrender of their freedoms and souls, to the whims of their elites and betters. First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather than the classics. Americans know more about their favorite TV dramas than thedrama in DC that directly affects their lives. They care more for their "right" to choke down a McDonalds burger or a BurgerKing burgerthan for their constitutional rights. Then they turn around andlecture us (Russia) about our rights and about our "democracy". Pride blinds the foolish. Then their faith in God was destroyed, until their churches, all tensof thousands of different "branches and denominations" were for the most part little more then Sunday circuses and their televangelists and top protestant mega preachers were more then happy to sell outtheir souls and flocks to be on the "winning" side of one pseudoMarxist politician or another. Their flocks may complain, but when explained that they would be on the "winning" side, their flocks wereever so quick to reject Christ in hopes for earthly power. Even ourHoly Orthodox (Russian Orthodox) churches are scandalously liberalizedin America. The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been a record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more than another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe. These past two weeks have been the most breath taking of all. First came the announcement of a planned redesign of the American Byzantinetax system, by the very thieves who used it to bankroll their thefts, loses and swindles of hundreds of billions of dollars. These make our Russian oligarchs look little more than ordinary street thugs, incomparison. Yes, the Americans have beat our own thieves in the shear volumes. Should we congratulate them? These men, of course, are not an elected panel but made up of appointees picked from the very financial oligarchs and their henchmenwho are now gorging themselves on trillions of American dollars, in one bailout after another. They are also usurping the rights, duties and powers of the American congress (parliament). Again, congress hasput up little more then a whimper to their masters. Then came Barack Obama's command that GM's (General Motor) presidentstep down from leadership of his company. That is correct, dearreader, in the land of "pure" free markets, the American president now has the power, the self given power, to fire CEOs and we can assume other employees of private companies, at will. Come hither, go dither,the centurion commands his minions. So it should be no surprise that the American president has followed this up with a "bold" move of declaring that he and another group of unelected, chosen stooges will now redesign the entire automotive industry and will even be the guarantee of automobile policies. I amsure that if given the chance, they would happily try and redesign itfor the whole of the world, too. Prime Minister Putin, less then twomonths ago, warned Obama and UK's Blair, not to follow the path to Marxism, it only leads to disaster. Apparently, even though we suffered 70 years of this Western sponsored horror show, we knownothing, as foolish, drunken Russians, so let our "wise" Anglo-Saxonfools find out the folly of their own pride. Again, the American public has taken this with barely a whimper...buta "freeman" whimper. So, should it be any surprise to discover that the Democratically controlled Congress of America is working on passing a new regulation that would give the American Treasury department the power to set"fair" maximum salaries, evaluate performance and control how privatecompanies give out pay raises and bonuses? Senator Barney Franks, a social pervert basking in his homosexuality (of course, amongst the modern, enlightened American societal norm, as well as that of the general West, homosexuality is not only not a looked down upon lifechoice, but is often praised as a virtue) and his Marxist enlightenment, has led this effort. He stresses that this only affectscompanies that receive government monies, but it is retroactive andtaken to a logical extreme, this would include any company or industrythat has ever received a tax break or incentive. The Russian owners of American companies and industries should look thoughtfully at this and the option of closing their facilities down and fleeing the land of the Red as fast as possible. In other words, divest while there is still value left. The proud American will go down into his slavery with out a fight, beating his chest and proclaiming to the world, how free he really is.The world will only snicker. Stanislav Mishin

[darkeyes]

This is not true in the slightest.

First, Guy Fawkes was a terrorist who attempted to blow up Parliament and to assassinate King James I. He did not do so under any orders as a soldier, but as part of a plot to overthrow the government.

Second, our soldiers act under orders. You might disagree with those orders, but that isn't the point. As a veteran, I'll ask you not to equate our soldiers to terrorists.







I can and do equate soldiers of all kinds as terrorists.. and those you call terrorists are soldiers in their own way Pasa..I do it very easily.. because thats what they are hired for and a large part of their purpose.. and Guy Fawkes was a soldier.. thats a historical fact.. apart from his military service he was a soldier for a cause... arguably, a much more honourable kind of soldiery than a soldier of the King..

It is interesting though is it not Pasa.. the US insists, as many Americans on site do, on retaining arms in just in case government gets out of hand and needs brought down a peg or two.. and here we have a man who died horrifically for his belief that Government was doing just that... you may see a difference... I see none..

[darkeyes]

Fran, we are heading for Marxism here and then straight down the road to Communism, Marxism perverted to the nth degree. You may have a pure view of what Karl Marx tried to set in motion, but it's been clouded for years by corrupt politicians. Did America learn from their mistakes? No. It's been said often if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.
Found the letter sent to me by my friend.

A perversion of Marxism is not Marxism, Twyla.. and Communism is no bad thing.. you are right in that what human beings do with a philosophy can be corrupt, but once corrupted and abused it ceases to be and becomes something completely different.. you are neither headed toward communism or Marxism.. you are not headed for socialism or social democracy..that you are however, headed for a fall I don't deny that.. and none of it is the fault of any of these doctrines... that is the fault of human beings struggling to manage a decaying capitalist socio/economic/political system..

[TwylaTwobits]

Oh really, Fran... A Russian can see it, why can't you?

[darkeyes]

Oh really, Fran... A Russian can see it, why can't you?

Have you really read that holy Jo mumbo jumbo? Both the religious stuff and the political guff? Its all drivel and all based on what? Just because a man is russian doesnt mean he knows the first thing about Marxism or Communism.. in fact it probably means quite the opposite.. AND he is hardly very nice about our, or at least my and Duckie's kind is he? The analysis of a gnat..

[TwylaTwobits]

I read it with a grain of salt, Fran, and I wouldn't discount the fact that a Russian has knowledge of Marxism and Communism. He does after all live there. And I do live in America. I see it everyday. I don't just see what you see in the media and on the net. I see it everyday because I live it. But then I don't know anything do I? I mean I only live here and deal with the effects of government in my life every single day. I'll just go back to my stfu corner since it appears everyone in other countries knows best about my country.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I can and do equate soldiers of all kinds as terrorists.. and those you call terrorists are soldiers in their own way Pasa..I do it very easily.. because thats what they are hired for and a large part of their purpose.. and Guy Fawkes was a soldier.. thats a historical fact.. apart from his military service he was a soldier for a cause... arguably, a much more honourable kind of soldiery than a soldier of the King..

It is interesting though is it not Pasa.. the US insists, as many Americans on site do, on retaining arms in just in case government gets out of hand and needs brought down a peg or two.. and here we have a man who died horrifically for his belief that Government was doing just that... you may see a difference... I see none..

Yes, we see things differently. It might be because I've had the courage to stand a post to defend my nation whereas pacifists of all stripes have not.

I'm sure all of the veterans on this board will be so pleased to learn that to you, they are terrorists. Well done.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

None of that is Marxism Twyla.. nowhere near.. none of it is even the cover of the book..

It is Marxism in the same fashion as it has ever appeared on this earth.

You want to complain that it is a twisted version? Sure, I'd agree to that. As was Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, and every other time it's been tried beyond a very small communal community.

But please, please stop with the attack every time someone says 'marxist' or 'socialist' or 'communist' that it isn't what those things are "on paper." In the common vernacular, by the common understanding of what these terms are, the use of the word Marxism fits, as does socialism. I'll basically take a page from my mom when I would correct her on a point of minutae, "You know what I meant."


...and after billions of dollars of taxpayers money you dont believe the government should have any say in how the businesses that are eating that money should be run? And who should run them?

No. Not in the slightest. Government has no place in private industry.

The the government shouldn't have been spending those billions to prop up those corporations anyhow (different subject).



That isnt Marxism either by the way.. nowhere near.. and not even the authors name on the cover of the book.. and on healthcare..Marxism wouldnt touch what Obama has put in train with a barge pole.. and dont be misled about Privacy.. Marxism is not about invading privacy or big brother or animal farm such as Pasa seems to think.. its about freeing people and getting them to work for the greater good..

Yeah, that's what we're being told. For the greater good. We need to buy insurance...for the greater good. We need to spend trillions...for the greater good. We need to report on our neighbors...for the greater good.

And, yes, what is happening here is EXACTLY like Animal Farm.


if I thought the US was beginning to move toward Marxism.. in its proper form.. empowering all of the people not just a few as is its intention... I would be the first to ring out the cheers.. but I see no hint of it..

..what people have done in the name of Marxism is the crime.. from Lenin, to Stalin to Mao.. and for all my admiration of the man.. to Fidel.. very little of what they did can be called Marxist..

And yet, it is indeed called Marxist. And Socialist. And Communist. By the world at large these terms have an understood meaning. And it is THAT meaning that Twyla, and I, and others have used the term to apply it to what is happening in our nation.

You knew what was meant. How about discussing it, as it was meant, rather than arguing the minutiae? It gets tiring to have to have this discussion every time, when you know darn well what is meant, how it is meant, and that it applies in the manner it was intended.

Pasa

[rissababynta]

I'm sure all of the veterans on this board will be so pleased to learn that to you, they are terrorists. Well done.

Pasa

I must say...I agree with this statement completely. I love you Fran...and I understand that you don't agree with military. I also can see where you are coming from with that, BELIEVE me I can. But holy crap...it's really nice to know that I'm married to a terrorist. I'll be sure to tell him when he EVENTUALLY comes home from helping people in a third world country :(

[Lady_Passion]

What purpose is there by being snide or deliberately obtuse?

There's always more than one side to a thing. There's how we view ourselves individually and as a country, and how the rest of the world views us. We are a minority whether or not we like to think so :.) We just happen to be one of the nastiest bullies on the block and getting our comeuppances. Disagreements on that score is an indication of the disorientation, to me, experienced while we each discover the 'whole picture' in our own time.

Those who choose to live in a bubble and refuse to acknowledge our effect on other individuals and countries could be called willfully ignorant, or at best naive.

My dad served three tours in Vietnam. He also served in the Congo and Korea during conflicts. He is among those who vehemently agree the military is solely utilized as a knee breaker for business deals. He has good reason firsthand, as do many other combat veterans.

In addition to war being a money maker, as long as there is a conflict Executive Order and Executive Privilege are maintained by every succeeding President. Anyone else notice how quickly media was shutdown after Obama was queried about relinquishing this level of authority? Ultimately what it means is US Presidents can act as a dictator through 'subordinates', some being less subordinate than others (I'm talking about Rahm Emanuel these days).

There is a catch 22 with both as well. Previous Executive Orders or actions executed by Executive Privilege can only be undone or readdressed by someone with the same level of authority. Hence, neither is likely to ever be relinquished.

The rest of the world generally views the US military as terrorists, not allies. Innocent individuals, aka 'insurgents' which could easily be any US citizen, are trapped between the harms done to them and their countries by our military even while they must rely on our military for help. Surely they have a voice and a right to speak out, and they do when allowed and when media will let them be heard. Ignoring their plights is to ignore our own.

The US has been rotting from the inside out for many decades... began with Lincoln though I do believe he did the best he could under circumstances. What came after since was a flock of vultures, rather than men who would get things back on track.

Taking other mens' actions personally does not serve any good purpose. It is continued blindness. Every conversation with my dad reminds me in the worst way what a precarious perch his personal honor and pride dwells upon. He tried to believe for so long that he did all the right things for all the right reasons. Each time his eyes were rudely awakened, he lost a part of himself that he could not get back, such that now he tiredly toes the line that the US is 'right' to people he doesn't know. But when he's among friends and the only time I have ever seen him cry, is for what he lost by participating things he considers criminal - he and numerous other veterans I live with, care/d for and volunteered with over many years.

[FalconAngel]

Fran, we are heading for Marxism here and then straight down the road to Communism, Marxism perverted to the nth degree. You may have a pure view of what Karl Marx tried to set in motion, but it's been clouded for years by corrupt politicians. Did America learn from their mistakes? No. It's been said often if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.
Found the letter sent to me by my friend.

Actually, we are heading to Corporism. That political state where we no longer elect our leaders, they come up through the ranks of the body corporate.

We have so many mega-corps out there that are "too big to fail", who have taken federal bailouts, that we must question whether it is a good idea to allow them to continue as is.

Let's face it; there is no reason that people should lose their job over things that have no bearing on their work, such as what they do in their private lives (as long as it is not criminal activity).

Now, as it is, there are many companies that do control behavior on that person's private time and lives. I know of a middle management corporate exec for Phillip Morris. She, a non-smoker (as is her husband), is required to always carry their cigarettes with her and always sit in the smoking section of every restaurant that has one. This can adversely affect her health and the company does not care.

And there are hundreds of thousands of examples of companies that do things like that to their employees, all for our dollars and control over their employees.

If left unchecked, we will all (in the US) be living in the world of "Aliens", where there is no government outside of the corporation.