are bi's tollerated by Gays/lesbians or just despised?

[bigbadmax]

I work in a gay run bar in the uk.

The gays that frequent there are very judgemental of all heteros....but I feel they are uncomfortable with me as I have not informed them that I am bisexual...would they change their views,are or all gays just queens who are jealous, or accept me more if I came out.

My wife says they look at me funny as they cant work me out...anyone else been in same situation?

[Long Duck Dong]

I used to work as a barman / door man at a lgbt bar......and yes I am bisexual

I kept my personal life out of my work but it was known that I was bisexual..... many of them accepted it, some of them didn't and the stupid ones tried to argue about bisexuality......

I used to state that I was the type of person that gave a shit about the people there and I would remember their names in the morning.... but I was not interested in casual hook ups with any of them....

it worked but mainly cos I treated them all equally.... I did not have the gays v's the lesbians v's the bis attitude..... I treated them all with respect and a smile...... and a swift kick up the ass when rules were broken...

the one thing I really noticed, was there was no hetero phobia..... there was a underlying issue with heteros that were assholes and obnoxious, but for the most part, the lgbt had the attitude that we all needed to get along with each other if we were to share the same word......

[Realist]

I think most people will respond in kind when they're treated with respect. There are factions who will argue with a brick, however. Some get obnoxious with their dogma, too. I've had two gay lovers; one was OK with my being bi and they other one thought I was sorely confused. I figured it was his problem, not mine.

[csreef]

I figured it was his problem, not mine.

I've met gay men and lesbians in gay bars & when I've told them that I was Bi, they just kinda gave me this little sneer, and almost looking down their nose at me would say "oh". Like I offended them. Get over it .Want to go to bed with me...I'll give you the ride of your life !

[darkeyes]

I've met gay men and lesbians in gay bars & when I've told them that I was Bi, they just kinda gave me this little sneer, and almost looking down their nose at me would say "oh". Like I offended them. Get over it .Want to go to bed with me...I'll give you the ride of your life !

Of course there are gay's who think bi's are just confused and/or absolute sluts.. and they look down their snitches at bi's as if they were summat nasty they had picked up on their shoe.. and there are quite a few like like make no mistake.. but most are as accepting of of bisexuals for what they are as they are of str8 or gay's.. and you have a point about going to bed with you in one sense.. just as str8 men want to bed with a gay woman and show her how wonderful a real man is and wants to turn us back to the light, lots of gay men in particular want to take a bisexual man to bed to confirm that they are not bi at all.. and to clear up the confusion.. there are gay women like that but in my experience they are much less dogmatic about bisexuality than gay men..

.. I can't say I've too often had gay guys question my sexuality in the days when I considered myself bisexual.. but occasionally gay women did.. and got earache for their trouble.. any who does that with my partner still does.. any who tells any of us whatever our sexuality that we are confused and don't know our own minds, are arrogant in the extreme.. the last that tried it on with Kate was answered with a forceful "I know you.. you are kid-on dyke.. anyone who is so doctrinal about how someone else is, obviously isn't secure enough in her own sexuality to judge.. its not her (Kate) thats confused.... I suggest you go away and ponder just what you are.. and its not dyke... now.. **** off".

Realist says we should treat peeps with respect... I agree.. but not when peeps are in our faces hectoring us about what we are or are not are... there are times when the odd wee swearie gets the message through that they have outstayed their welcome in our space...

[welickit]

We are both bisexuals and 99% of our friends are either gay or lesbian. We frequent a gay lounge here in town and are totally accepted. I think one thing that makes a major difference in us being accepted is that we do volunteer work for the local gay pride establishment. Most everyone we come in contact with treats us like part of the family. There are always a few who see a male/female couple as outsiders but they are quickly and quietly put in their place by others. You can't expect to get back more than you invest. As a bisexual you need to prove yourself in the GLBT community if you ever want to be accepted as a part of it. It isn't a part time thing, you need to live it or leave it.:bipride::2cents:

[BiCycler]

Of course I'm going to respond to this. I have met many gays and lesbians to which bisexuality is just another aspect of human sexuality. I recall being shocked at the intolerance and descrimination I experienced within the gay and lesbian community regarding bisexuality. I put the latter in that large group of people who have a self-centered view of the world and the perpensity to discriminate, whatever that discrimination might be, is not a unique trait.
(Please note: where I say lesbians or gays, I mean not to paint all with the same brush, I'm simply referring to the lesbians and gays who engage in discrimantory behaviour.
would they change their views,are or all gays just queens who are jealous, or accept me more if I came out. So, to answer this one point; no, not all gays or lesbians are...whatever you wish to put here. We are all people and therefore individuals capable of independent thought. Although, sometimes in groups, individual thought is abandoned for sake of saving face.
I've observed bisexual women receive angry retorts after declaring their sexuality to lesbians. The reaction has been immediate and without any prior argument. I get the distinct feeling that nerves are struck and the reactions are defensive. With gays, I've found the anger mounts after I've tried to counter their original dismissal. I have also noted that gays, unsolicited, tend to be opinionated about other peoples' sexuality. That dogmatism Darkeyes referred to. I've never had that experience with lesbians, but that could be due merely to opportunity as I am much more often in the company of gays than lesbians. To be clear, I am bisexual. Not gay, not straight. Have known since always and have always been just fine with it. (The fluidity part got me going at times and was the only thing I ever felt any confusion about). I live in a town of ~100 000 people (well most of them are people). We have a strong lgb... community. What surprised me the most was discrimination from people who are part of a community that historically and currently has to deal with an onslaught of discrimination and directed hate. One would think that would garner understanding and not only tollerance but acceptance of sexualities other than the "norm". (What is normal)? I have had conversations with gays and lesbians who accept bisexuality as part of the rainbow too. I have friends in a three-way gay triple. They live together and are really just like a couple in all but number. They tell me that they are at the receiving end of discrimination in the lgb...community as well.
I think that the animated responses one gets from gays and lesbians are responses to a perceived threat. Lesbians and gays, though discriminated against by ignorant people everywhere are part of a distinct, identifiable group whose status is static and clearly known by all of society. (Mono-sexuality). I'm not sure what the inner process that one goes through when growing up and realising their own personal sexuality looks like for straight, lesbian or gay. That is an experience outside of my perspective. But, I suspect much of the process involves (at least for some) internal conflict due to societal pressures, until self-acceptance, aliances, support and community are found. Having found community and support, I believe, many gays and lesbians experience relief, self vindication and self-value. Bisexuality and its fluid nature counters the solid non-shifting monosexuality that is gay or lesbian. (And there lies an interesting alliance or commonality between straight, and gay or lesbian). There may also be some internal doubts arising from thoughts regarding opposite sex arousal as well. In short, bisexuality threatens that sexual foundation that is so often hard come by. I've heard many gays and lesbians talk about sexuality not being a choice yet am told by the same people I have not yet made my choice or that I am choosing to be bisexual and am not accepting that I am gay. Bisexuality is not a choice. I also think that being bisexual reflects an openess of thought and perspective, a sense of adventure and complexity that mono-sexuality necessarily does not. Because the right to one's own sexuality has been so successful for gays and lesbians, (the battles are not over for any discriminated group), there is a strong sense of community for lesbians and gays. I believe that some wear the badge of gay or lesbian like a badge of honour. An exclusive group that has become so popular there are fridge magnets that declare "I was gay before it was popular". I think that gives some that sense of power that allows them to believe they somehow have such knowledge and understanding that they can think for others by making statements such as, "bisexuality does not exist", or "being bisexual just means that one is in the weigh station on the way to being gay".
The OP states that the gays in his bar descriminate against heterosexuals. I think that is a way of bolstering their own belonging within their own group. Lots of the gays here talk about breeders this and breeders that. I find it disgusting and wonder if they ever get to the point of realization that they too and all in their comminuty, are products of such breeding.
To those that choose to tell me I'm gay but not yet there, I say, "call it what you want, it's all semantics to me. I like pussy and I like cock and the people attached are great too."
I could go on...:flag2::rainbow:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

This issue has been debated for many years now and I dont think it will be resolved anytime soon. Some gays look down on us Bi's, but others dont. Many think that we are "Middle ground" or "Fence sitting" and all have their little opinions on it. I say we just be Us and let the rest of the worlds populous wonder about it...lol:bigrin:
Cat, bad attitude...lol

[crazy_cat_lady]

I've often thought of this exact topic. and when I went to my first gay bar I was terrified at first. I had pictures running in my head of everyone stareing at me then getting torches and pitch forks and screaming "DECIDE, DECIDE, MAKE HER DECIDE WHICH SIDE SHE'S ON!"

Of coarse this didn't happen and I wasn't so afraid after I talked to a passing waitress and she said even hetero couples are welcomed there.

But still I think quite a few bi's have had these thoughts ad it has to stop. When my friends mother told me she thought I was a closeted lesbian despite the fact I had a boyfriend the coversation went like this...

Me: I am attracted to hot guys and cock, theres nothing like seeing hot muscley ripped guys at the beach or takeing a shower with water cascading down hard abs and even harder....

her: ok ok so your straight.

Me: but how can I be straight if I also get aroused by the sight of a beautiful soft curvasious(sp?) bikini body. soft breasts and supple squeezable ass straining against the material. and wishing to hold and kiss every soft inch of her especially the inch between...

she stopped me there as she grugingly accepted my explaination that you can like both at the same time.:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

To those that choose to tell me I'm gay but not yet there, I say, "call it what you want, it's all semantics to me. I like pussy and I like cock and the people attached are great too."
I could go on...:flag2::rainbow:

I think the thrust of your post is excellent and accept the gist of it.. I just want to remark about this one point though.. I have never ever thought of myself as straight.. I never envisaged myself, even as a small girl, settling down with a guy, or a girl for that matter forever, and sticking to it monogamously.. I always knew I wanted the broadest experience possible.. I knew what I liked and was going to have it..there are those who admire that as single minded and determined and those who think of it as the product of a spoiled upbringing.. some just the behaviour of a slut.... it is probably a bit of the first two, but I've never accepted the notion of slut even if I do call myself tart.. and God knows what else besides.. genes, nature who knows for sure.. but I quickly grew to know that I was bisexual.. and lived my life as a particularly promiscuous one.. apart from a few years married.. huge mistake.. I lived that life and loved it.. throughout that time I have heard of gay guys having contempt for and unnaccepting of bisexuality, and to a lesser extent had gay girls tell me I'm a closet dyke.. after my husband and I split, I revived my bisexual life.. but it never was a bisexual life.. it was a de facto lesbian life.. I slowly began to realise I was moving closer and closer to being a lesbian.. there was a residual attraction to guys but very rarely did one ever feature in my romantic thoughts, deeds or fantasies (JD notwithstanding)!!!

So I do accept, that for some of us, our sexuality is never still.. it varies.. for some it is in a permanent state of flux.. for me however it has been an inevitable onward march toward become what I consider myself today.. a lesbian.. I was NOT always a lesbian.. I was a bona fide bisexual woman and girl and had a whale of a time with both sexes.. sometime during my marriage or maybe because of it, I think I missed something.. I missed the day to day living of what I was as I lived a lie, and at sometime during that marriage I had switched from being bisexual to being a lesbian, but just didn't know it.. sex with my husband wasnt exciting and became less so, to the extent that in the end I wasn't interested at all and the pressure of missing making love with those of my own sex and my ever increasing need for such a relationship, becoming lesbian just passed me by.. for several years as those who were about on .com can verify I never called myself lesbian because I never thought of myself as such.. I think some knew it before me both in my life in the real world, and those on site with whom I had grown quite close..I suppose those years were also in their own way living a lie. I think Allbi sussed me out first bless his little cotton socks.. but others werent far behind but were much too polite to say..

None of this means I don't accept bisexuality .. or that bisexuality is a stage in becoming homosexual.. I do not accept that for one minute.. we are all of us different human beings and our lives pan out differently.. for some sexuality is in a perpetual state of fluidity.. for others, like me it will be that march to becoming gay.. for some it may even result in a return to being straight.. I don't dismiss that as a possibility either.. many do return to a straight life.. not all will be straight but some may actually be... some will never be anything else but straight...

My partner for the most part gets the hots for men, and I believe deep down she wishes she were straight.. though some days there is no doubt her interest is not in men at all... hers is in that constant state of fluidity.. I just seem to have been that cute lil bad penny she can't resist, and we can't help with whom we fall in love can we???? So we live happily together in a lesbian relationship... no outside naughties with either sex.. we are not both lesbian, but we live as lesbian, but never for a minute will I ever kid myself that she is a closet lesbian.. for I know that not to be the case... she is bisexual, and I'm pretty sure will always remain so..

[innaminka]

I found that generally lesbians were okay with me being bi.
Naturally, the ideological extreme fringe wouldn't have a bar of anyone who professed to be bi, but they are such a small minority, and personally I had nothing to do with that fringe.

However, the term "Bi-curious," tends to be anathema to most committed lesbians.
It really just suggests someone who is just playing games.

I would say its the Bi-curious who are barely tolerated, rather than genuine, self-assured bisexuals.

[darkeyes]

I found that generally lesbians were okay with me being bi.
Naturally, the ideological extreme fringe wouldn't have a bar of anyone who professed to be bi, but they are such a small minority, and personally I had nothing to do with that fringe.

However, the term "Bi-curious," tends to be anathema to most committed lesbians.
It really just suggests someone who is just playing games.

I would say its the Bi-curious who are barely tolerated, rather than genuine, self-assured bisexuals.

Never seen why people freak about peeps who say they are bi curious.. usually means thay don have closed minds.. and in bad ole days wosn unknown for me 2 dally.. sure some r jus playin games.. not 1st time I've been left gaspin wen 1 went off 2 loo ne'er 2 b seen again.. but thats happened with both bisexual and lesbians.. 1ce even happened with a guy who nipped off 2 place a bet at the bookies an fucked off 2 God knows wer.... but not all r playin games.. sum r actually what they say they are and whether suppressed or just interested, lotsa bi curious have become bi an even openly bi and even horror of horrors.. gay.. they havta start sumwer in sumway just like the rest of us..

[Pasadenacpl2]

In my experience, gays as a group are the most judgmental, self righteous, indignant bunch of people I've ever met. And they get pissed when they are not granted tolerance.

Irony.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

In my experience, gays as a group are the most judgmental, self righteous, indignant bunch of people I've ever met. And they get pissed when they are not granted tolerance.

Irony.

Pasa

Bit like sayin' all 'mericans r jingoistic, flag wavin',war mongerin', self righteous arrogant arseholes, Pasa.. most aren't.. but on otha hand.. lots r is this not so?:)

..an wy shudn they get p***ed when they r not tolerated? Not 2 many peeps wud b othawise.. daft statement 2 make.. buggered if I will tolerate not bein granted tolerance...wiv the attitude u show sumtimes am not that suprised ur experience is as it is...

[jamiehue]

100%ters bore me they are so predictable for the most part everyone knows our diversity makes us better lovers ....plus aint got time for them folks anyhow go lions!

[Billys_gurl]

I have always liked girls and guys. When I first started going out to the gay bars the guys were the ones who hit on me. I accepted quite a few of them and had a wonderful time. I was in my twenties then, and all the women who hit on me looked like my moms age. I have not been with a woman fully but know that I am indeed bi-sexual. What I am going for here is I ended up friends with a lot of the performers at the bars. For the most part they were accepting and great friends! One young 'lady' was quite rude about me, and anyone she saw as hetero in the bar. She treated us as badly as she claimed she was treated by heteros. I always treat all my friends as equals, with respect and the love I feel for them. I am treated the same. SO, as long as you treat them the way you would like them to treat you, I see no reason for them to be rude to you. BTW, my husband has now learned that entering the queens world is not an open armed enviornment either. He is a cross dresser, and BOY the nasty looks he got the first few times he went out to the bars! He has made friends with quite a few of them now, so its all good.

[darkeyes]

I always treat all my friends as equals, with respect and the love I feel for them. I am treated the same. SO, as long as you treat them the way you would like them to treat you, I see no reason for them to be rude to you.

Were life only so simple... I see no reason for people to be rude to you either.. but alas.. there is always some bam who will have the manners and manner of the arsehole...:(

[drwilsontx]

Most of the gays I have been around feel bi's are selfish... any port in the storm. What's funny is the gays are more prejudiced against us than the straights. my thinking is dick or pussy, I am out to have a good time

[AsianDream]

My view is that a lot of gay guys (myself included till recently) think that BI sexual guys are really gay "underneath it all" - so just pretend to like women as well.

This is not being despised - just an opinion people hold

[darkeyes]

Most of the gays I have been around feel bi's are selfish... any port in the storm. What's funny is the gays are more prejudiced against us than the straights. my thinking is dick or pussy, I am out to have a good time

Trubble wiv sum gays.. wudn say most, is that sumhow they don undastand if peeps shag peeps of both sexes they do it cos they like it.. now wot me wondas dus that make peeps who shag peeps of both sexes??

Me don fancy shaggin guys in least.. seen the day but nope not ne longa.. so wot dus that make me??

So maybe a lil usin of the ole grey matta mite cum in handy...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Bit like sayin' all 'mericans r jingoistic, flag wavin',war mongerin', self righteous arrogant arseholes, Pasa.. most aren't.. but on otha hand.. lots r is this not so?:)

..an wy shudn they get p***ed when they r not tolerated? Not 2 many peeps wud b othawise.. daft statement 2 make.. buggered if I will tolerate not bein granted tolerance...wiv the attitude u show sumtimes am not that suprised ur experience is as it is...

So...your excuse for intolerance is that they were intolerant first? Honestly?

I was in a gay bar recently and was caught in a conversation about straights. They were completely nasty and vile and the hatred was palpable, using terms like 'breeders.' I had finally had enough and said something to one of them, essentially saying what I've been saying all along about tolerance.

He practically spat at me asking the fuck did I know about tolerance. My reply was "Well, I'm not gay and I'm sitting in a gay bar. I never see you in straight bars."

His response? "Fucking Bi bitch." Yes. The GLBT movement is being served so well by such stalwart examples of tolerance.

Tolerance is like respect. You give some, you get some. Unfortunately, since we are talking societal change, You give the tolerance now, your children will receive the benefits. But if you refuse, then the next generation will be mired in the same shit.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

So...your excuse for intolerant is that they were intolerant first? Honestly?

I was in a gay bar recently and was caught in a conversation about straights. They were completely nasty and vile and the hatred was palpable, using terms like 'breeders.' I had finally had enough and said something to one of them, essentially saying what I've been saying all along about tolerance.

He practically spat at me asking the fuck did I know about tolerance. My reply was "Well, I'm not gay and I'm sitting in a gay bar. I never see you in straight bars."

His response? "Fucking Bi bitch." Yes. The GLBT movement is being served so well by such stalwart examples of tolerance.

Tolerance is like respect. You give some, you get some. Unfortunately, since we are talking societal change, You give the tolerance now, your children will receive the benefits. But if you refuse, then the next generation will be mired in the same shit.

Pasa

I would be the sort of person that would have said something like * even if he was not into anal sex, any person sleeping with him, would still be fucking a asshole *

people that use the term * breeders * tend to forget if it was not for the * breeders * the majority of us would not exist...... ( I am allowing for AI births and stuff )

unfortunately over the last couple of decades, attitudes have changed.... and its hard for me to accept that in a day and age of getting rights and equal treatment... that a lot of the lgbt in NZ have turned into complete assholes in regards to heteros and other sexualities....

I am ashamed to admit that the lgbt were more respectful of the heteros a couple of decades ago,.... and now they treat them like we used to be treated..... hell a lot of the time, the lgbt treat each other as pieces of meat to fuck and dump...... thats a long way from the tolerance and respect, we believe we deserve.....

I stand with you pasa.... we give what we get

[Robinium]

Tolerance is like respect. You give some, you get some. Unfortunately, since we are talking societal change, You give the tolerance now, your children will receive the benefits. But if you refuse, then the next generation will be mired in the same shit.Pasa

100% agree.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Heterosexuals have been intolerant to GLBT people for generations and decades and even centuries.

Every year in the United States there are Christian, Conservative, and Heterosexual organizations that try to destroy the rights of GLBT people in America and further the rights of heterosexuals and preserve heterosexual marriage or what they call the "sanctity of marriage". :rolleyes:

So?

This is your justification for terms like 'breeder' and for intolerance? Because they did it first?

And it's not just against straights. No siree bob! Lets not forget that there are entire subsections of the GLBT "community" that will throw their verbal vomit at Bi folk, or even worse...closeted gay men. How dare they not be out and proud? And, it's not just the guys. Ever been a single guy walking into a Dyke bar? Yeah...not pretty.

The gay "community" is it's own worst enemy. We constantly attack each other for not being gay enough, or not being in a particular box. And the sad part is that most of the "community" cannot see the sad irony.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

So...your excuse for intolerance is that they were intolerant first? Honestly?

I was in a gay bar recently and was caught in a conversation about straights. They were completely nasty and vile and the hatred was palpable, using terms like 'breeders.' I had finally had enough and said something to one of them, essentially saying what I've been saying all along about tolerance.

He practically spat at me asking the fuck did I know about tolerance. My reply was "Well, I'm not gay and I'm sitting in a gay bar. I never see you in straight bars."

His response? "Fucking Bi bitch." Yes. The GLBT movement is being served so well by such stalwart examples of tolerance.

Tolerance is like respect. You give some, you get some. Unfortunately, since we are talking societal change, You give the tolerance now, your children will receive the benefits. But if you refuse, then the next generation will be mired in the same shit.

Pasa

I too agree with your last point.. you got p***ed at not receiving tolerance.. quite rightly so.. u prove my point Pasa... thank you..

[MarieDelta]

Funny thing, I've been out as bi in several states. Have mostly been treated well. Been in Lesbian Bars and gay bars and never had a problem.

Of course in some places the lesbian bars were the same as the gay bars. I suppose it has to do with the size of the community. There are jerks in every community. People are people.

There will always be those who are intolerant in every community, just the nature of mankind.

Just because we are a minority doesnt make us better than anyone else, nor does it make us worse than anyone else, it just means that there are fewer of us.

[darkeyes]

Funny thing, I've been out as bi in several states. Have mostly been treated well. Been in Lesbian Bars and gay bars and never had a problem.

Of course in some places the lesbian bars were the same as the gay bars. I suppose it has to do with the size of the community. There are jerks in every community. People are people.

There will always be those who are intolerant in every community, just the nature of mankind.

Just because we are a minority doesnt make us better than anyone else, nor does it make us worse than anyone else, it just means that there are fewer of us.

Funny thing Marie.. it is much the same here.. and gays go into non gay pubs as often as they go in to straight pubs.. and usually get no hassle.. can it be that some people's abrasiveness brings upon their heads the intolerance of which they are so critical? It wouldn't be the first time I have both seen or and have myself felt it necessary say something to one or a group of people who by their deeds and words.. in non gay, gay and lesbian bars.. have been upsetting other customers.. not always to do with sexuality, but sometimes.. but always to do with manners...

[BLM415]

I went to a gay bar once in Tokyo's ni-chome district with my partner at the time: a Japanese "newhalf" (look it up). The bartender asked right away about my sexual orientation. Without skipping a beat, my partner said, "bisexual", which I suppose it true, especially since I'm posting here. The guy behind the bar said "Benri, desu ne?" ("Convenient, isn't it") in a really haughty dismissive tone that reeked of mild-to-moderate disapproval. I'm always kind of surprised at the discrimination bis get from gays in certain circumstances, but to get it half a world away from home was really eye-opening.

On a related note, a waiter at a restaurant in San Francisco's Castro district called me and my then-girlfriend "breeders" under his breath, thinking we couldn't hear him. So much for the tolerant, accepting Bay Area!

Incidents like these have made me somewhat cynical about what I see as double-standards of discrimination within the gay community. I guess they need someone to disapprove of, too. I just wish it wasn't me.

[Realist]

As a very secretive, closeted bisexual, in the '50s, I was aware that being out was possibly a death sentence in Central Florida.

However, when I was stationed in Germany in '59, my lover and I used to go to a quaint little hotel, several miles from my post. We were greeted and treated like any paying customer and the people in the gasthaus and restaurants had no problem with us showing affection for each other. Austria seem a little less tolerant, but other than a few stares, we had no problems there, either. In England, London and Southampton, in 1960, I saw more Lesbians, gays and bisexuals than I'd ever noticed anywhere else.........but I was warned that some places in the country were downright militantly hetero.

Back home again in '61, I went back to the closet and pretty much stayed there. I've never felt the need to flaunt my bisexuality, anyway.

In Louisville Ky, I found a couple of places that were tolerant and some friendly toward LBGTs, but I never did make overt sexual advances, or blatantly revealed myself, even there.

I never have felt as free and safe as when I was in Europe. I don't know how it is, these days. I'm older, now, don't go to bars, or socialize much. My GF and I mostly do our own thing and are happy with each other....we feel little need to be out, anyway.

Looking back, I know it's a much different world, today.

[darkeyes]

Europe is doing ok realist and its getting better with every passing year... there remain areas in every country even the most liberal where no gay, bisexual, lesbian or transgendered person if they have any sense will go and admit to being what they are.. and certainly not show signs of affection to one of the same sex. but these are becoming less.. there are some countries where it is not yet legal but most EU countries, especially those in Northern and North western Europe things are not perfect but they are pretty good.. more so for women than guys, but thats something time will have to put paid to that little bit of hypocrisy.. but even for guys, society in Europe is becoming much more tolerant and accepting..

Gay bashing continues in every country whether homosexuality is legal or not, and there remain large numbers of people who still hate anyone not of what they call the norm.. more countries every year allow us to marry or have civil unions and it is now much better than when I came out as a teenager back in the 90's.. gay pubs and clubs are found in most large towns and cities and most of Europe is a good place for us to live in.. not perfect by any means, and sometimes dangerous (but is it not dangerous for everyone no matter there sexuality).. but far and away better than when you were here in the 1950's and 60's..

[Robinium]

Europe is doing ok realist and its getting better with every passing year... there remain areas in every country even the most liberal where no gay, bisexual, lesbian or transgendered person if they have any sense will go and admit to being what they are.. and certainly not show signs of affection to one of the same sex. but these are becoming less.. there are some countries where it is not yet legal but most EU countries, especially those in Northern and North western Europe things are not perfect but they are pretty good.. more so for women than guys, but thats something time will have to put paid to that little bit of hypocrisy.. but even for guys, society in Europe is becoming much more tolerant and accepting..

Gay bashing continues in every country whether homosexuality is legal or not, and there remain large numbers of people who still hate anyone not of what they call the norm.. more countries every year allow us to marry or have civil unions and it is now much better than when I came out as a teenager back in the 90's.. gay pubs and clubs are found in most large towns and cities and most of Europe is a good place for us to live in.. not perfect by any means, and sometimes dangerous (but is it not dangerous for everyone no matter there sexuality).. but far and away better than when you were here in the 1950's and 60's..

Agree.

There are some places where you should better not come out, like rural Bavaria, but altogether it's okay. And it's even better if you live in a city with a huge gay scene and even a kind of "gay quarter", such as the city where I live.

[just4mefc]

I came across this somewhere "Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you." ;)

I love it Darkeyes.

When in a gay bar or a str8 sports bar etc.. there will often be a lot of group think. Individually most of the people there will be much more accepting or at least tolerant of bi's and str8's. This peek into the drinking group's behavior is not in and of itself proof of "bigotry" Put a bunch of republicans in a room and they will begin to bash and throw hatred at democrats (and vice versa) but individually they don't actually "hate" the other people just their potential politics. It is the group dynamic that drives the environment. So it is not a case of well "they were hated first" although hate does tend to form us in a negative way. To me the term "breeder" is really rather silly attempt to strike back at the oppressor. Of course it hurts the gay population by implying they have no ability to breed themselves. Must hurt at least a bit as a gay couple with a child hearing someone called a "breeder" in a derogatory way. I have never known a single str8 who was impacted in any way by being called a breeder. Might as well have called them a human. They shrug and say "and?"

Overall I agree with other posters here who mention gay's will have varying levels of acceptance of str8's and bi's. Pasa speaks of an ugly event in a gay bar and of course one asshole can ruin shit for everyone. However it does occur to me that he was caught off guard a bit. He might have thought he was in the company of fellow "gay's" and was free to spout off, just harmless chest beating really. Or he is just an ass, who knows. Out of that environment he might be a really open minded person but had a bad moment. I think people go to "gay" bars, clubs etc. to just be comfortable (ok and to get some action) and perhaps "bi's" are a "buzz kill"? Of course I doubt he would have said all that had Pasa been a 200 pound fullback looking guy. Alcohol and audience certainly dictate behavior.

On the personal note, many gays I know have an issue with the fact that bi's don't have to walk the talk in the way that they did in terms of coming out. Kind of like we get a free pass and of course by not joining them as "gay" we somewhat invalidate their orientation. They often have a "brother in arms" we went through the war while you sat at home doing nothing kind of attitude. I agree that bigotry hurts everyone no matter what kind gay/str8, black/white, muslim/christian at the very least we need to all pursue tolerance. So while I don't condone "gay on others bigotry" I do understand it. :2cents:

[michaelaaron]

So while I don't condone "gay on others bigotry" I do understand it. :2cents:

Sadly, I understand, and agree. People are the same wherever you go: they need to be loved, they need to love, they need to have community. I think that in the midst of all of this we as the bi community lose sight of the fact that we are much more like the gay community than we think. Of course, to be fair, the same could be said of them. But, this is our site, and our community, so lets talk about us.

Every group that has been discriminated against and has fought back, have at some point felt threatened by other groups who they feel are perverting their message, or stealing their thunder, or taking away public support for their cause.

At the end of the day, it seems to matter little whether gays, lesbians, or my mother, like us, or who we are. I like us. I like me. As naive as it may sound, I really believe that all you need is love, and if we showed the gay community that we loved and supported, and understood them, and where they are coming from, consistently, maybe they would return the favor.

I know, I know: they hate us. So what? Love them back. March in Gay Pride. Volunteer in gay organizations. Make gay friends. And, when you get that invariable "breeder" label, don't take it to hard. Maybe that person is just insecure, ill informed, hurt, scared. Maybe they just need someone like us to show them that the best answer to hatred is love.:flag4:

[darkeyes]

Sadly, I understand, and agree. People are the same wherever you go: they need to be loved, they need to love, they need to have community. I think that in the midst of all of this we as the bi community lose sight of the fact that we are much more like the gay community than we think. Of course, to be fair, the same could be said of them. But, this is our site, and our community, so lets talk about us.

Every group that has been discriminated against and has fought back, have at some point felt threatened by other groups who they feel are perverting their message, or stealing their thunder, or taking away public support for their cause.

At the end of the day, it seems to matter little whether gays, lesbians, or my mother, like us, or who we are. I like us. I like me. As naive as it may sound, I really believe that all you need is love, and if we showed the gay community that we loved and supported, and understood them, and where they are coming from, consistently, maybe they would return the favor.

I know, I know: they hate us. So what? Love them back. March in Gay Pride. Volunteer in gay organizations. Make gay friends. And, when you get that invariable "breeder" label, don't take it to hard. Maybe that person is just insecure, ill informed, hurt, scared. Maybe they just need someone like us to show them that the best answer to hatred is love.:flag4:

Methinks u been readin the Fran book of human relations... spesh the last two paras... cos can't find fault with any of it.. is how I try 2 live me life and have since me early teens..

[BiCycler]

This sure has turned out to be a good read. Many points and many perspectives. Assholes are everywhere, even here. Great understanding tolerant people are everywhere too, even here. Just because someone has struggled to find their place in society does not necessarily mean they can see past their own nose. I think people have addressed this clearly. What I see some people saying is that they understand it. I do to; doesn't make it right. And I will state again, there is no mirror involved when people forget intolerance against themselves to practice it on others.
But, this is our site, and our community, so lets talk about us.
I think this does address us. A very large part of my experience being bisexual is the misunderstanding that many many people express including the very vocal and sometimes vitriolic stance taken by homosexuals in regards to bisexuals. Reading and responding to threads like this helps to build common understanding and personally allows me to see myself as valid and with value when confronted by anyone who not only misunderstands but take it upon themselves to ridicule, belittle and dismiss who I am.

One more point, bisexuals are not in a minority as some people have said. Varying studies show there are five to ten times more bisexuals than homosexuals. We all know there is a difference between study's results and the truth, but many things point to a large portion of humans being to some degree bisexual. Why then are we still invisible, misunderstood and told we don't exist. This thread addresses a huge part of that.:flag2:

[AsianDream]

Funny thing, I've been out as bi in several states. Have mostly been treated well. Been in Lesbian Bars and gay bars and never had a problem.

Of course in some places the lesbian bars were the same as the gay bars. I suppose it has to do with the size of the community. There are jerks in every community. People are people.

There will always be those who are intolerant in every community, just the nature of mankind.

Just because we are a minority doesnt make us better than anyone else, nor does it make us worse than anyone else, it just means that there are fewer of us.

I’d tend to agree – I’ve been “Pure” Gay most of my life – only recently Bi-sexual. None of my friends or other gay people I’ve told dislike me for it.

Some of them have problems believing that people can be “BI” – they have the view that you’re either “Really” Hetro or Gay.

But I think that’s maybe typical with sexuality – it’s hard to imagine other people being different to yourself. I’ve got an aversion to alcohol and I just can’t imagine how anyone could like it – but intellectually I know that most people do.

Different sexuality if probably especially difficult to understand because of the “YUK” factor about what other people like to do – even worse when people try to rationalize a “gut feel”.

One of my gay friends – who loves rimming and anal intercourse (as do I) voiced the opinion that cunnilingus was the most disgusting thing ever – quoting yeast infections as a major “Hygiene” reason not to do it.

It all comes down to tolerance being one of the most important human virtues – and one we need to work at all the time in our own ideas.

I recently had a debate (on another forum) with someone who is very committed to “freedom of expression” – but supported the idea of “banning the burqua”. To me this is an obvious un-warranted interference in other people’s freedom – but it took a long time to get the idea across that tolerance is always a two way street (ie: only tolerating those you agree with isn’t the point)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Since it was brought up..I don't want to ban the burqua. I just don't want ID issued without a picture of the face. And if asked to present ID, I want them to pull up the burqua so that ID can be compared to the person carrying it.

I believe in everyone being treated equally. That means that your religious rules don't get to say that you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Pasa

[AsianDream]

Since it was brought up..I don't want to ban the burqua. I just don't want ID issued without a picture of the face. And if asked to present ID, I want them to pull up the burqua so that ID can be compared to the person carrying it.

I believe in everyone being treated equally. That means that your religious rules don't get to say that you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Pasa

Not actually sure what you saying - so you don't want to ban the burqua?

But at the same time you think Governments should be allowed to demand a picture ID from anyone at any time?

So how good are these rules?

You almost seem to assume that Governments are good and individual people are bad?

Anyway - I guess a bit off topic

My general point is that tolerance is the only real virtue - and that is what Gays/lesbians should (and mostly do) apply to Bisexual people

[darkeyes]

Since it was brought up..I don't want to ban the burqua. I just don't want ID issued without a picture of the face. And if asked to present ID, I want them to pull up the burqua so that ID can be compared to the person carrying it.

I believe in everyone being treated equally. That means that your religious rules don't get to say that you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Pasa

So you want the authorities to have the right to insist on a woman pulling up her skirt and dropping her knickers, Pasa?? That may sound funny and flippant but it isnt.. to some moslems doing what you want is considered as indecent and offensive as that...

..but don't they already have the power to do the first within certain rules to protect our civil liberties and rights? I am pretty sure the power exists to do the other in precisely the same way... but I suspect what you ask for is that it be done upon demand without protection of a woman's modesty and integrity..

[Pasadenacpl2]

I insist that picture ID rules and usage be the same for everyone. I insist that verification be the same for everyone. They can forgo having an ID if they choose. No one forces them to. The things you get with having an ID are priviledges, not rights. So if it means that much, they can forgo those priviledges too.

Pasa

[bipolyboise]

Most of the gays I have been around feel bi's are selfish... any port in the storm. What's funny is the gays are more prejudiced against us than the straights. my thinking is dick or pussy, I am out to have a good time

You may be onto something. I know a bi woman that changed her online orientation on okcupid to straight, and I asked her if it was from men being creepy and trying to ask about threesomes.

Nope, it was from Lesbians giving her grief about being bi.

[darkeyes]

I insist that picture ID rules and usage be the same for everyone. I insist that verification be the same for everyone. They can forgo having an ID if they choose. No one forces them to. The things you get with having an ID are priviledges, not rights. So if it means that much, they can forgo those priviledges too.

Pasa

..and who are you to insist on anything? I don't give a bugger what you insist on... having ID is and should be a purely voluntary thing.. and privileges should not go along with whether you do or do not have ID.. we have rights and for centuries people have died to gain for us those rights.. I don't throw them away for anyone or anything.. I don't voluntarily sacrifice them for bumptious, pompous and arrogant bullies... and rights that are mine should also be those of not just my fellow citizens, but anyone else who happens to live in and visit my country.. insist.. privileges.. you pompous ass..

[Long Duck Dong]

I insist that picture ID rules and usage be the same for everyone. I insist that verification be the same for everyone. They can forgo having an ID if they choose. No one forces them to. The things you get with having an ID are priviledges, not rights. So if it means that much, they can forgo those priviledges too.

Pasa

I have to agree there
we have the photo id drivers license in nz. you want to drive, you need that photo id..... its designed to stop people lying about who they are

and yes, I agree, driving is a privilege, not a right, people are expected to be responsible and mature when in charge of a motor vehicle.... unfortunately not all of them are.....

while I respect peoples right to wear a burqa, I respect the right of law official officers to be allowed to uphold the law of my country, and if that treads on religious rights, so be it....... we may not share the same religious beliefs, but while in a country, we are subject to the laws of that country....
and you need to be able to prove your id to a law enforcement officier beyond reasonable doubt

[DuckiesDarling]

..and who are you to insist on anything? I don't give a bugger what you insist on... having ID is and should be a purely voluntary thing.. and privileges should not go along with whether you do or do not have ID.. we have rights and for centuries people have died to gain for us those rights.. I don't throw them away for anyone or anything.. I don't voluntarily sacrifice them for bumptious, pompous and arrogant bullies... and rights that are mine should also be those of not just my fellow citizens, but anyone else who happens to live in and visit my country.. insist.. privileges.. you pompous ass..

Whoa wait a minute, Fran.

It depends on where you are in the world yes as to whether privileges and yes I said privileges not rights, huge difference there, are accorded with an id. The purpose of issuing an id is that someone has verified the person carrying it. So Ethel can't give Cousin Fred from Iraq her id and burqa and he slides into a bus station at rush hour and detonates a bomb.

There are other considerations with ID, they are necessary for day to day living here in the US. If you do not have a driver's license you need a state issued ID card so you can open a bank account, cash a check, et cetera. But I'm failing to see what this has to do with Gays and Lesbians tolerated or despising bis?

[darkeyes]

Whoa wait a minute, Fran.

It depends on where you are in the world yes as to whether privileges and yes I said privileges not rights, huge difference there, are accorded with an id. The purpose of issuing an id is that someone has verified the person carrying it. So Ethel can't give Cousin Fred from Iraq her id and burqa and he slides into a bus station at rush hour and detonates a bomb.

There are other considerations with ID, they are necessary for day to day living here in the US. If you do not have a driver's license you need a state issued ID card so you can open a bank account, cash a check, et cetera. But I'm failing to see what this has to do with Gays and Lesbians tolerated or despising bis?

I have said that any ID I decide to carry will be my decision.. to help me make my life easier.. it has to be voluntary.. but failing to carry such ID should not deprive me of my rights.. I understand precisely what the burka argument is about Darling, darling.. and it is only a very small part to do with whether someone is carrying a bomb in her knickers or a is a guy in drag on some sinister mission...

..and I was responding to Pasa's comment nothing else.. but gay and bisexual people wear burkas too believe it or not...

[Not2str8]

My only experience with this was at a gay and bisexual mens' social group. I was one of about 10 men there, and the newest one. During the first meeting, one spoke up and said he didn't believe bisexuality existed; that it was merely a safe designation for one to hide behind until he came out as his true self, and joined Team Gay. Everyone else at the meeting chimed in with their agreement. None of it was acrimonius, they just literally couldn't imagine themselves being attracted to both genders. When I pointed out that it is that same inability of straight people to imagine themselves as gay, that causes them to believe that homosexuality is a choice, they started thinking about it with a different perspective. Over the course of several weeks, they accepted me at my word, as they got to know me, personally. And that's the larger point I think; that others are somehow "different", until we get to know them, and find out they're not really that much different from us.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Fran,

I used the word insist as a direct response to your use of the word as well. So don't go getting all faux indignant with me, chica. It doesn't faze me. You asked a question. I answered it, using the language and framework you used to pose it. Trying to play word games with me as a debate tactic is probably not your most logical move. Just sayin'.

Carrying an ID allows privileges. You may not like it, but there it is. Driving is not the only priviledge. No bank will do business with you without it. No houses may be bought, no cars, no loans of any sort. Even if you buy a car w/cash it can't be registered without. And any institution of higher learning will not take your money without it (they have to ensure they give credit to the right person, and anyone who has dealt with that particular part of academia knows how frustratingly anal they are about it). You can't even get legally hired without ID (you must prove your identity for the employer to report your earnings to the IRS) and then there are picture IDs issued by employers.

And, while we're getting all high and mighty while trying to accuse others of thinking they are all high and mighty, neither racism, nor terrorism drives this in anyway. Equality and everyone playing by the same rules. You can't make a valid argument against everyone playing by the same rules.

But, it's indecent to their culture. So? Play by the rules. This is our culture, and you choose to be a part of it. Your culture doesn't excuse you from following our rules.

But, it's against their religion. So? Play by the rules. Your religion doesn't excuse you from the rules.

But, it's racist. It is? OK. So? Play by the rules. Your ethnicity doesn't excuse you from the rules.

Your accusations of me allowing racism to color my reasons are a strawman argument meant to discredit me by alluding to ulterior motives. Fortunately, simple logic is more than adequate to show this is not true. And in the absence of any sort of data or facts for you to give, we'll have to stick with that.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

There is no mention of racism from me Pasa.. for I am not accusing those who rant and rave about the wearing of such an appalling garment as racist.. I am accusing them of being anti Islam.. many native Britons are Islamic and some do wear the Burka as a symbol of their faith.. just as Sarkozy in France bans it, that is an anti Islamic move.. the Netherlands and thank God the both last and present governments of my country have refused to make it so.. in the UK because it is considered thoroughly un-British..

..and I used the word insist in respect of what you wish the authortities to be able to do.. not as a personal statement of desire.. all this hoohah about the wearing of a garment in many countries is symptomatic of the present wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.. and a result of Al Qaeda and the 11/9 horror.. no one is saying that those who wear such garments should not be subject to the law.. but the law has to take into account the religious and cultural differences of people.. and where it requires people for whatever reason to identify themselves there must be safeguards which neither humiliate or make innocent people feel persecuted.. and always giving due consideration to religion, culture and dignity.. far too often innocent people are strip searched for the hell of it by the customs or immigration officials, the police or militaries of too many countries without consideration of their dignity.. there is a presumption of guilt and consequently people are treated harshly, unpleasantly and painfully in the most humiliating manner without due consideration of religion, culture or anything else..

We the west are considered anti moslem throughout the Islamic world.. the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have sharpened thiis perception.. and little things like banning the burka, or people who increase western paranoia by saying things in the manner you and others do hone that perception.. and it all adds up to making it more, not less likely that radicalised Islam, or at least those who do things allegedly in its name will perpetrate even greater atrocities in the west than they do now..

.. the vast majority of Islamic people in both our countries play by the rules Pasa.. whether they are nationals, residents or visitors.. I'm afraid I can't say the same about our authorities....

[Pasadenacpl2]

no one is saying that those who wear such garments should not be subject to the law.. but the law has to take into account the religious and cultural differences of people..

No, it doesn't. Or, do you think that, due to religious ideals we should defer to the various religions in regards to gays? Hrm?

The law is irrespective of religion. The law is irrespective of other cultures. The law is equally applied and equally enforced regardless of your religion. At least, in this nation. You don't find anyone actually giving credence to allowing Sharia law in our nation.

I stated clearly that I have no problem with someone wearing a burqua. But, where ID is concerned, your face is required. Either live with that, or choose not to have a picture ID, and choose not to get what that gives you.

And honestly, their culture in so far as it is practiced here isn't a priority. People come to the US because they believe it's the best choice for them (and usually better than where they came from). You don't bring the old country here. You learn to live in THIS country by THIS country's rules. That's what is expected in the Arab countries in reverse. I was pushed to the front of more than one "trial" in butcher block square to have that point driven home to me.

It's pretty simple.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

What goes in other countries is irrelevant.. its what we do which should make us the better for it.. my country is changing quite rapidly because of the different peoples and cultures which it has and is absorbing.. the law is often tailored to take account of that.. that there are some things which our society would not stand for because of they are absolutely alien to our way of life.. stoning, chopping hands off, beheading, yes and anti gay, bi and trans prejudice and discrimination, we have and are changing and it is quite right that we do.. and overall, we are the better for it..

..you may wish your society to ride roughshod over those who enter your ountry to live.. that is neither how the US has been historically or how I hope it is today.. although I do have reservations just as I have reservations about my own.. all societiies adapt and change to meey its changing needs and changing population.. it does that or blows up into chaos..

[Pasadenacpl2]

It's not running roughshod. Only in a perverse twisting of what is right can that conclusion be arrived at. The law applied evenly, irrespective of religion is part of the bedrock of our society.

All other arguments are diversionary from this core issue. Your religion, your culture, your preference are all meaningless before the law. We are all equals in the eyes of the law. Equally applied, equally responsible to it.

You don't think we should have different laws for Muslims, do you?

Pasa

[just4mefc]

“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
~Benjamin Franklin

I think the real point is laws must be applied with an equal hand BUT must be carefully written to protect ALL of society. There is this belief that "America is a melting pot" but in reality our strength comes from the fact we are a "Salad Bowl" Here in Los Angeles we have one of the worlds highest levels of diversity. The last census showed over 140 cultures. Our laws cannot simply say "our country right or wrong" -- which "our" might that be?

“Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.”
~Thomas Jefferson

As Jefferson suggest, the "equality of enforcement of the law" might not be equal rights under the law. This is not to say exempt some people and not others but I do suggest we write our laws to meet the needs of everyone's individual freedoms. Once upon a time in the good ole' USA we had slavery laws. The equal level handed enforcement of those laws did not make slavery a fair and equal act. A tough thing to do for sure but balance is important and making sure we are not callus in our decisions due to ignorance or intolerance is key.
:2cents:

[Pasadenacpl2]

That was very nice. It was also not very applicable. If requiring that you put your picture on a picture ID is violating someone's civil rights. Religion does not factor in.

If it does, I would like to object to having sign anything. You demanding such a deeply personal thing violates my civil rights and goes against the teachings of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, my diety.

Of course none of this even addresses that ID is voluntary. It has rules. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

It's not running roughshod. Only in a perverse twisting of what is right can that conclusion be arrived at. The law applied evenly, irrespective of religion is part of the bedrock of our society.

All other arguments are diversionary from this core issue. Your religion, your culture, your preference are all meaningless before the law. We are all equals in the eyes of the law. Equally applied, equally responsible to it.

You don't think we should have different laws for Muslims, do you?

Pasa

The law should take account of all every bit as much as all should take account of the law... if you believe that law does not change to tae account of changing populations, and changes in culture and yes even religion or no religion, then you ignore the reality of ages..

Law should not exist to allow preference of one group over another.. but it should always take account of, and be applied respectfully and equally to all peoples and all cultures within a nation.. to do other stores up trouble which no society wants.. but because so often this lesson is not learned until very late in the day trouble ensues and society begins to creak, and if not addressed in time, break..

[Pasadenacpl2]

mmmm yeah.

And...how does that apply to IDs? Lofty speeches are nice after a fashion. But, they aren't really helpful here in providing solutions. Now, let's get down to brass tacks.

Apply this to Picture IDs, identifying yourself via picture IDs, and generally getting along in Western society. Your solution must accomplish everything that IDs currently accomplish.

And....go!

Pasa

[dafydd]

going back to the original question...
I would say bis are not despised by some gays and lesbians, just totally incomprehensible to.

d

[just4mefc]

That was very nice. It was also not very applicable. If requiring that you put your picture on a picture ID is violating someone's civil rights. Religion does not factor in.

If it does, I would like to object to having sign anything. You demanding such a deeply personal thing violates my civil rights and goes against the teachings of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, my diety.

Of course none of this even addresses that ID is voluntary. It has rules. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Pasa

It does apply. You stated that "they must show their face, too bad if they have religious views, The law is the law apply it equally, blah blah blah."

I never said don't carry I.D. nor did I say having an I.D. was a violation of rights. Those were not my words. So your reply was not "applicable"

Yes I agree there are concerns and any nut job could make up some religion as you so flippantly point out. But I still say err on the side of freedom first and only after extreme thought and reason, weighing the greater good should we infringe on these freedoms. Ironically, this post started as a complaint/question of intolerance and yet we have wound up on what.. more intolerance! Easy to speak of love and compassion and complain of treatment when it is US but when it is someone we fear or don't like, well to hell with them. Riding the bus during the civil rights movement was voluntary too, was it ok then to say "don't like the back? then don't ride the bus"

sigh

[darkeyes]

Isn't it interesting that very often those who shout loudest and longest the word freedom, are very often those who would and indeed do most to curtail it?

..but again, going back to the original question, it is true Daffy.. many gays do not comprehend bisexuality, just as many straights are unable to comprehend homosexuality.. yet some deny it knowing very well it is a reality, often out of peer pressure and sometimes even out of good old fashioned prejudice and intolerance.. they are as bitter and twisted about it as some bisexuals are about homosexuals and their attitudes which they seem to think are representative of all gays, which of course they are not. Just as indeed many hetero, homo and bi-sexual's are about transgendered and intersex people. they often despise, mock and make little or no effort to understand... I say many... I do not say most..

[Pasadenacpl2]

It does apply. You stated that "they must show their face, too bad if they have religious views, The law is the law apply it equally, blah blah blah."

I never said don't carry I.D. nor did I say having an I.D. was a violation of rights. Those were not my words. So your reply was not "applicable"

Yes I agree there are concerns and any nut job could make up some religion as you so flippantly point out. But I still say err on the side of freedom first and only after extreme thought and reason, weighing the greater good should we infringe on these freedoms. Ironically, this post started as a complaint/question of intolerance and yet we have wound up on what.. more intolerance! Easy to speak of love and compassion and complain of treatment when it is US but when it is someone we fear or don't like, well to hell with them. Riding the bus during the civil rights movement was voluntary too, was it ok then to say "don't like the back? then don't ride the bus"

sigh

Requiring one to have their PICTURE on a PICTURE ID is not intolerant.

Still haven't gotten an answer though, from you or Fran about how do we 'not infringe' and still have IDs that are worthwhile, do what they currently do, etc and so forth.

I'll say it again. I have no problem with people wearing burquas. As long as they are willing to put their face on an ID (if they choose to carry one), and show their face when presenting said ID to do the things we use ID for.

Do you expect a police officer who has pulled someone over legally, to accept not being able to see who he's dealing with?

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Requiring one to have their PICTURE on a PICTURE ID is not intolerant.

Still haven't gotten an answer though, from you or Fran about how do we 'not infringe' and still have IDs that are worthwhile, do what they currently do, etc and so forth.

I'll say it again. I have no problem with people wearing burquas. As long as they are willing to put their face on an ID (if they choose to carry one), and show their face when presenting said ID to do the things we use ID for.

Do you expect a police officer who has pulled someone over legally, to accept not being able to see who he's dealing with?

Pasa

We infringe by the act of compulsion, and we infringe, as was mooted in this country by imprisoning and fining people for not supplying the information the state demanded, we infringe by detaining them for not carrying ID, we infringe by allowing people not to carry ID and then making their lives more difficult for not doing so.. we infringe by broaching their rights should they choose not to carry ID.. we infringe by collecting personal information which may be used by an unscrupulous government to discriminate against or persecute us.. anything which is not voluntary is an infringement of our right as human beings.. many are prepared to accept such compulsory, many, including myself, accept some of these voluntary infringements in order to live our lives infringements.. but any infringement which I believe oversteps the mark, compulsory or voluntary I would oppose as would any reasonably minded person.. which is why I would have been prepared to go to prison rather than carry state ID.. and still am if it ever raises its ugly head agin..

[darkeyes]

Do you expect a police officer who has pulled someone over legally, to accept not being able to see who he's dealing with?

Pasa

..and yes I do, unless there are proper protections and safeguards for the protection of the indivudual...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Then you are a fool who would place the lives of police officers in danger. Luckily, folks like you don't get to affect police procedure. Traffic stops are the second most dangerous activity a police officer can engage in. Knowing who the are dealing with saves lives.

I, for one, am not willing to bend on this in the least. I value the lives of our poice officers far more than I value the percieved infringment.

I also disagree with nearly every one of what you say are infringements. Then again, I live in the real world where giant conspiracies to control you are limited to XFiles re-runs and Orwell novels. We don't choose to make life difficult for those without ID. Those who choose to not follow the social norms of any societal group will find their lives more difficult. That is their choice, and not the fault of the group at large.

You have said, as has Marie, religion is a choice. Choices have consequences. Don't blame the government or whoever is your boogeyman of choice for the consequences of your choice.

Pasa

[just4mefc]

Requiring one to have their PICTURE on a PICTURE ID is not intolerant.

Still haven't gotten an answer though, from you or Fran about how do we 'not infringe' and still have IDs that are worthwhile, do what they currently do, etc and so forth.

I'll say it again. I have no problem with people wearing burquas. As long as they are willing to put their face on an ID (if they choose to carry one), and show their face when presenting said ID to do the things we use ID for.

Do you expect a police officer who has pulled someone over legally, to accept not being able to see who he's dealing with?

Pasa

I did not say it was intolerant to put a face on an I.D. are you reading someone else's comments before posting to me? here read what I said again...

I never said don't carry I.D. nor did I say having an I.D. was a violation of rights. Those were not my words. So your reply was not "applicable"

In many things I agree with you Pasa yet you find a way to argue with an inherent agreement? What I am speaking to is the inherent need of sensitivity on certain potential religious issues. I do think one must have an ability to identify ones self in general life. However, it is a fine line. While driving for instance should an officer be able to pull over a woman just to make an identity check? Does she only have to show her face if she is suspect of a crime (i.e. probable cause?) and should any officer be able to see her face? Perhaps one answer is to have a dedicated officer who checks such things if the person is not comfortable showing face to just anyone. Sort of like when a male officer suspects a female suspect might be hiding something, wants to do a complete search prior to possible arrest, he calls in a female officer to do the pat down. Now I don't know the religious rules on face showing and all so I don't know who would have to be on staff. At least at that point the person has a choice, go to station or wait an hour for the right authority to show up OR allow a face showing under probable cause or need (crime, writing a check etc...) How about a thumb scanner? That might be an easy non-face way to verify? I don't have an easy answer. I still feel we need to lean towards protecting the rights of the individual before the state.

[just4mefc]

Then you are a fool who would place the lives of police officers in danger. Luckily, folks like you don't get to affect police procedure. Traffic stops are the second most dangerous activity a police officer can engage in. Knowing who the are dealing with saves lives.

I, for one, am not willing to bend on this in the least. I value the lives of our poice officers far more than I value the percieved infringment.

I also disagree with nearly every one of what you say are infringements. Then again, I live in the real world where giant conspiracies to control you are limited to XFiles re-runs and Orwell novels. We don't choose to make life difficult for those without ID. Those who choose to not follow the social norms of any societal group will find their lives more difficult. That is their choice, and not the fault of the group at large.

You have said, as has Marie, religion is a choice. Choices have consequences. Don't blame the government or whoever is your boogeyman of choice for the consequences of your choice.

Pasa

Sorry to say this actually, for I too think protecting those that protect us is a high priority. BUT, As an agent of the state the officer's safety must be secondary to the freedom's of the people. I don't like it but it is true. This is why I have an inherent respect of police in the USA. Now if they had the power over the people (as sometimes occurs) then I would have more of a fear then a respect. The risk of the officer is a necessary evil in my view. If I have to choose between a potential police state or the higher risk to our officer's, I will choose the side of freedom.

Oh and don't you live in Texas? Can you say GOP platform? That is real world conspiracy beyond any seen in xfiles etc. In fact you as a bi person would be fired if their goals come to pass. Then you will be the one asking for tolerance and protection from persecution. The real world conspiracy's are why we must ever protect the individual rights. If we don't protect the rights of people we don't agree with then someday our rights will be put aside as well. In California, the state supreme court granted same-sex marriage rights. Then the conspiracy of the Mormon church bought an election, via prop H8 and by a mere 400,000 votes a basic constitutional right was selectively removed.

You stated "Those who choose to not follow the social norms of any societal group will find their lives more difficult. That is their choice, and not the fault of the group at large" so being bi or shall I say "not str8" means it is ok to be ostracized because you are not part of the norm? What happens when Texas eventually becomes more latino then white? Now the norms will change. Do the now minority whites lose their rights? They could choose to go live somewhere else. Yes I know all of this is absurd but it is a slippery slope and does happen.

[darkeyes]

You don't choose to make life difficult for those who do not live up to societal norms? Every word you type near as damn shows that in fact you do Pasa.. or at the very least you choose to support and agree with those who have the power to... and Just4 is right.. what you do then is to withdraw freedom (God... I am beginning to hate using that word.. some peoples use of it make it sound dirty) from not only others but yourself.. I want no one put in danger ever.. but the safety of the forces of the state are indeed secondary to the liberties and freedoms in which we believe, millions have died for and the people are supposed to have.

I am not paranoid about conspiracies.. yet they do exist in state, corporation and institutions, and we ultimately have to combat them as best we can with the limited resources and information we are allowed to have available.. never underestimate the contribution of writers, great and mediocre to keeping alive people's awareness of their condition.. writers of fiction, good and bad usually base their writings in observations of the world about them... never understimate the contribution literature of whatever quality has made in helping us keep what liberties we have.. but very little I believe and argue comes from what fiction writers may publish... save possibly as illustration...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Sooo...

Woman in Burqua is driving dangerously. She is pulled over. The nice police officer asks for license and registration. She refuses to provide proof of her identity. As I understand it, anotherman other than her husband touching her in any way is cinsidered heinous. And yet, upon refusal to identify herself with a valid ID and verification that its her on the ID, the nice officer is going to touch her, and hancuff her, and puther in a holding cell until he knows who to give the ticket to.

And she has no one to blame but herself.

We identify ourselves. And when using streets with a car we are required to do so using a DL. So, at best she is refusing to provide valid DL. More likely she doesn't have one to begin with. Just a a matter of pragmatism, she's made what should be a simple matter into a huge issue for the cop. This is never wise. The easiest way to avoid trouble with the police s to cooperate with them. So, she's guilty of at least one, more likely three crimes, and is being a pain in the ass with a cop.

If this were me, the reaction would be that I'd be lucky notto get the ass beating I so richly deserve. But since she's a Muslim we give her a pass?

Sorry, but y'all are exactly what is wrong with worryin gabout being PC.

Oh...as for being bi...I'm in the closet for a reason. I understand society. I can chose to out myself, but if I do there are consequences. I make the choice to stay in. I don' bitch about my civil rights because I don't have a right not to be shunned. I won't lose my job, or my house. My social peers will be lost, as well as my mother's support. I'll lose Boy Scouts with my sons. I don't have a right to those things. And they certainly have a right to freely associate or disassociate.

I don't expect societies to change just because I am different. If I visited England and bitched that it was against my religin to serve room temp beer, and how dare they affront me with such sacriledge most of you would think me silly. And rightly so.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Sooo...

I don't expect societies to change just because I am different. If I visited England and bitched that it was against my religin to serve room temp beer, and how dare they affront me with such sacriledge most of you would think me silly. And rightly so.

Pasa

Uhuh. beer is not 'sposed 2 b room temperature hun... if drawn properly from a cella.. the beer shud b cool not warm.. cella temps shud b somewer round 12-14c (54-57f) 2 bring out its flavour best.. thats real beer a course.. lager an otha pasteurised beers r chilled an setya teeth on edge.. u like that sorta stuff is fine.. jus don mention it me dad..;)

http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=180651

Ya jus nev seem 2 gerrit rite do ya Pasa..*giggles*

..an for ya info am owt but PC.. am howeva a human bein who likes 2 think of otha human beins bein treated decently an fairly... wetha they b Moslem, Christian, Chinese, Gay, Bi, American, man, woman or child or wetha they cum from the moon...

...an bein in the closet is fine, Pasa.. I understand precisely why people remain in the closet..it shouldnt be, but both our societies arent yet quite mature enough for everyone to feel able to come out.. you give reasons which many give and I may quibble a little with the rights aspect but not the real fear of loss...:)

[just4mefc]

Pasa wrote..
Woman in Burqua is driving dangerously. She is pulled over. The nice police officer asks for license and registration. She refuses to provide proof of her identity. As I understand it, anotherman other than her husband touching her in any way is cinsidered heinous. And yet, upon refusal to identify herself with a valid ID and verification that its her on the ID, the nice officer is going to touch her, and hancuff her, and puther in a holding cell until he knows who to give the ticket to...

Again I don't have a real issue here. I only suggest a better way to deal with this. She should be requested to show her face or provide some other method of ID (finger print scan etc) She could request a female officer come to verify her ID etc. If she chooses not too then having broken the law and with probable cause on the side of the officer he will call for a female (perhaps muslim) officer to come and escort her to jail. This is how we already handle drunk drivers. They can refuse a field sobriety test but will be taken to jail for a blood test if they insist.

Sorry, but y'all are exactly what is wrong with worryin gabout being PC.

Not PC at all. Just pro freedom over government. I grew up in the civil rights movement so I know the power of the people to stand up for what is right even when it does not obviously effect them.

Oh...as for being bi...I'm in the closet for a reason. I understand society. I can chose to out myself, but if I do there are consequences...

This is exactly my point. Should you have to hide in a free society? Now what if you are outed not by your choice? Have you changed at all just because you are outed non-sr8. No but your Texas society will eat you alive as if you were discovered to be a terrorist. You have to send your son to boy scouts a major homophobic group started by a religious sect. A group who would out you in the blink of an eye. Because if you don't your son will say but why mom? Then all the questions would come and you might be outed that way. So you most likely have to stay the course, go with the flow. I don't blame you at all. I blame the society that would do this to you. See by fighting for the rights of the Muslim you are actually standing against bigotry of any form. You teach others tolerance and as time goes by they become less volatile toward you and your issues. This is not PC, this is the reality that we are all tied together in terms of freedom.

I don't expect societies to change ...

You should!!! Evolution of society is what keeps it strong. Look at history, those society's that had such arrogance as to not evolve crumbled. We live in a great nation, Pasa, to me the beauty of it is tolerance, growth and the fact that "we the people" can have meaning if we insist on it. Equality is such a difficult battle and I feel requires us to fight for things we might despise. I hate the ACLU on most things and yet I love the ACLU for there vigilance. I need those wacko's to constantly push back on a complacent government.

As I have said before I think you make some good points but I am more toward freedom first, society second. You should be free of bigotry to come out or not based on your personal desire not based on fear of consequence. I fight for the right of the Muslim so that someday your rights will be stronger too.

[AsianDream]

Isn't it interesting that very often those who shout loudest and longest the word freedom, are very often those who would and indeed do most to curtail it?

My original point in mentioning the "Burqua Debate" was that the person who was in favour of the French Ban is in most other ways very liberal and tolerant.

In the same way - some Gay (or for that matter STR8) people who are not tolerant of Bi-sexual people are often those who in other ways are very in favour of freedom (especially for themselves).

Probably the best route to tolerance is to try and imagine that you are the other person - with the same desires and ideas (religious or otherwise) - then think how you'd like to treated.

Actually as I prefer to be naked whenever possible - I find the idea of wanting to cover parts of the body difficult to understand - but if these ladies want to cover their face (in addition to breasts and genitals etc) then that should be their right.

[darkeyes]

Actually as I prefer to be naked whenever possible - I find the idea of wanting to cover parts of the body difficult to understand - but if these ladies want to cover their face (in addition to breasts and genitals etc) then that should be their right.

U lived 'ere in winta.. believe me..naked is the last thing ya wud ev wanna b wen ya go outside...;)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa wrote..
Woman in Burqua is driving dangerously. She is pulled over. The nice police officer asks for license and registration. She refuses to provide proof of her identity. As I understand it, anotherman other than her husband touching her in any way is cinsidered heinous. And yet, upon refusal to identify herself with a valid ID and verification that its her on the ID, the nice officer is going to touch her, and hancuff her, and puther in a holding cell until he knows who to give the ticket to...

Again I don't have a real issue here. I only suggest a better way to deal with this. She should be requested to show her face or provide some other method of ID (finger print scan etc) She could request a female officer come to verify her ID etc. If she chooses not too then having broken the law and with probable cause on the side of the officer he will call for a female (perhaps muslim) officer to come and escort her to jail. This is how we already handle drunk drivers. They can refuse a field sobriety test but will be taken to jail for a blood test if they insist.

I suggest that in a perfect world with all of the resources available this might be possible. I further suggest that in the real world of budget cuts, low staffing, and police officers already pulled to the brink, this is not only not feasible, it is a logistical nightmare and financially impossible. While you've now pulled a minimum of one more, more likely two, police officers to handle it, that means that those officers are not patrolling or responding to other needs.


0This is exactly my point. Should you have to hide in a free society? Now what if you are outed not by your choice? Have you changed at all just because you are outed non-sr8. No but your Texas society will eat you alive as if you were discovered to be a terrorist. You have to send your son to boy scouts a major homophobic group started by a religious sect. A group who would out you in the blink of an eye. Because if you don't your son will say but why mom? Then all the questions would come and you might be outed that way. So you most likely have to stay the course, go with the flow. I don't blame you at all. I blame the society that would do this to you.

But, this is a free society. They are free to associate, or disassociate with me as their choose, for whatever reasons they choose. I do not, and should not, have the right to force people to continue to associate with me if they don't want to.


See by fighting for the rights of the Muslim you are actually standing against bigotry of any form. You teach others tolerance and as time goes by they become less volatile toward you and your issues. This is not PC, this is the reality that we are all tied together in terms of freedom.

Bigotry is a part of the human condition. Being a bigot is part of our rights. Acting upon being a bigot in a way that affects a person's ability to make a living or have their home, or move about freely is what is unconstitutional. But merely being a bigot, and choosing not to associate or even to bad mouth someone is part of the greatness of this nation. People are free to be ugly to one another. We can't, nor should we, mandate niceness. I accept people being ugly because I believe in the freedom of expression. As long as it doesn't trample on my rights (which it doesn't), I'm ok with their bigotry.




I don't expect societies to change ...

You should!!! Evolution of society is what keeps it strong. Look at history, those society's that had such arrogance as to not evolve crumbled. We live in a great nation, Pasa, to me the beauty of it is tolerance, growth and the fact that "we the people" can have meaning if we insist on it. Equality is such a difficult battle and I feel requires us to fight for things we might despise. I hate the ACLU on most things and yet I love the ACLU for there vigilance. I need those wacko's to constantly push back on a complacent government.

I expect that societies evolve. But I don't expect society to change just because I happen to be something, and believe in something that they do not. That would be incredibly arrogant of me.

I lived in Italy for 4 years. I didn't expect them to adapt to me. I adapted to them. I lived in Japan as well. I didn't take offense that the Japanese people wouldn't speak to me if I didn't at least attempt to speak Japanese. I didn't attempt to shake hands with them and do a chest bump/hug because that invades their personal space and by and large is not welcome. Instead, I learned their ways.

I expect people that live here to do the same as I have done as an ambassador of the US to other nations (all who travel abroad are ambassadors). I expect it of the Mexicans I teach in public schools. I teach them American customs, and correct them when they do something that we consider to be rude. Example: in Spanish it is perfectly acceptable to call someone Signor with no other name attached. In America, to simply call someone "Mister" is rude unless you don't know their name and even then we use a pregnant pause to get them to fill in that blank. So, when my students say "Hey mister" I correct them, telling them that they must use my correct name with that.



As I have said before I think you make some good points but I am more toward freedom first, society second. You should be free of bigotry to come out or not based on your personal desire not based on fear of consequence. I fight for the right of the Muslim so that someday your rights will be stronger too.

We do not have complete freedom. Nor have we ever. It is an illusion, and one I don't teach my kids. We have a bill of rights. It has served us well. Nothing about a picture ID violates anyone's rights. I'm comfortable with that.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

As long as it doesn't trample on my rights (which it doesn't), I'm ok with their bigotry.





Pasa

..but bigotry tramples on the rights of others Pasa.. and yet it doesnt on yours? Why then do you hide your sexuality? Becuase you choose to isn't good enough.. because by not hiding it will have repercussions you are not prepared to accept... caused by good old fashioned bigotry.. sounds like pretty good trampling to me..

..and I dont expect society to evolve either, simply because I believe in something.. we don't have a right to change simply because we believe in or want something.. but I don't sit around accepting the status quo.. for things to change very often we have to argue for it and fight for it.. thats what brings change often against very hostile opposition.. thats why in the west we have made so much progress on LGBT issues.. thats why we have made progress in so many areas of the social condition of humankind.. that Pasa, is why we have what we call representative democracy and not feadl societies or ones which have a single head of state operating on the divine right of kings principle..

[csrakate]

OK...time for a smile break...speaking of burqas.....see what happens when the Snuggie and the burqa mate:

http://www.snazzynapper.com/

Now back to the original topic...."Are bi's tolerated by Gays/lesbians....etc"

[Pasadenacpl2]

Do I have a right to have people forced to associate with me? If they choose to shun me can I take them to court and force them to accept me into their social group? I hope not. I'd hate to have to invite an asshole to my poker game to avoid facing fines.

You can't legislate how people freely associate. Otherwise it's not free. My rights are not trampled. I choose to be silent because I would lose social standing. I don't have a right to good social standing.

Nothing about losing Boy Scouts or friends is covered in the Bill of Rights. Rights are VERY specific, and there arend many of them. As it should be.

Pasa

[BiCycler]

Well done kate. Freaking hilarious. I'm just wondering if that is a legitimate product or just a joke. I Rolled On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off. I think I understand what motivated you to post what you did.
No offense, but could you two please take your fight private. You have hijacked the thread and are really speaking to something unrelated to the OP. And before you send a flame back my way saying you have a right to be here and to write what you are writing, know that I agree with that. I'm just asking. :flag2::rainbow:

[darkeyes]

My rights are not trampled. I choose to be silent because I would lose social standing.



Pasa

..and why then would you lose social standing Pasa, hmmmm? It wouldn't possibly be because people would not approve and think the less of you now would it? So my dear, we may differ about whether or not bigotry violates your rights.. but it tramples over you in any case, and treats you as something less than you are.. and prevents you from living a decent and honest life, free from prejudice, unashamed of who and what you are.. unafraid of discovery, being thought less of.. there are other rights than those provided by any constitution or legislation. One of them is the right to live our lives without fear.. being treated prejudicially, trampled over and discriminated against is an infringement of my rights; losing social standing because one is something which is legal and decent is an affront to one's right to live as equally, openly and freely as any other human being...

[darkeyes]

Now back to the original topic...."Are bi's tolerated by Gays/lesbians....etc"

Usually Mumsie.. but not always...;)

Its ok.. Ive said my last on the other bit..:)

[void()]

"Woman in Burqua is driving dangerously. She is pulled over. The nice police officer asks for license and registration. She refuses to provide proof of her identity. As I understand it, anotherman other than her husband touching her in any way is cinsidered heinous.

STOP!

And yet, upon refusal to identify herself with a valid ID and verification that its her on the ID, the nice officer is going to touch her, and hancuff her, and puther in a holding cell until he knows who to give the ticket to.

NO.

This is where police officers are trained to be professional,tolerant,diplomatic and have integrity. If they are the ones to cast the stones, let them be without sin, otherwise you've no grounds to judge. Most if not all of world's religions, creeds agree upon this. It is called objectivity for the secularist.


And she has no one to blame but herself.

No, she can rightly blame an unprofessional police officer driven by popular opinion that Christianity is the only Way, to disagree merits jack boots crushing in your skull. And yes, here in the US that is much the case. There exist other nations, religions, creeds and so on. We can no longer condone a view of singularity, or jingoism fueled xenophobia. We are all one people, we must set aside our adversities and unite. Will it be easy? No. Is it worth it? Many believe so. Think in terms of transmutation of lead to gold in the alchemists sense. It isn't about the elements but rather the people.

We identify ourselves. And when using streets with a car we are required to do so using a DL. So, at best she is refusing to provide valid DL. More likely she doesn't have one to begin with. Just a a matter of pragmatism, she's made what should be a simple matter into a huge issue for the cop. This is never wise.

It's a hassle to extend common human decency? Remind me not to invite you to save the child in the burning building. Poppycock!

The easiest way to avoid trouble with the police s to cooperate with them.

No, the easiest way involves having a chameleon mentality. I blend in perfectly, never draw attention, remain invisible in a sea of people. Cops do not see anything out of the ordinary, they don't get hassled, they don't hassle. Oddly, Islam is somehow radically new in America, and "oh the Reds!" Not every Muslim is a monster or demon, nor every American or Christian.

So, she's guilty of at least one, more likely three crimes, and is being a pain in the ass with a cop.


She may not have a license as some traditionalist Muslims don't feel women capable, shoot they admonish them from learning to read. But yet her husband, whom may be awaiting her, may have a license and or be willing to cooperate. He is head of household, you deal with him, not her. Again, tolerance, diplomacy and yes, respect. Must you really wonder why Americans are so hated?

If this were me, the reaction would be that I'd be lucky notto get the ass beating I so richly deserve. But since she's a Muslim we give her a pass?

No, not a free pass. The fact you have to stop her and draw attention infuriates her husband, whom more than likely will have her stoned and beaten. It is her fault no matter, even if the husband realizes the officer is a bigoted prick, having nothing better to do aside from harassing him by using his wife. His wife offended him by drawing attention.

It really isn't difficult to step into someone else's mentality, if you lay your own aside for a moment. And once you do, you learn and earn vast rewards. But people can't be bothered. Oh, by the way, it's you who be squashed like an insignificant bug under the oncoming global tide of unity. Keep on not tolerating, not learning, not respecting ... to survive you change and only change is constant. You need that tempo or you're wasted.

Sorry, but y'all are exactly what is wrong with worryin gabout being PC.

Need a hankie?
"

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=darkeyes;179740.. losing social standing because one is something which is legal and decent is an affront to one's right to live as equally, openly and freely as any other human being...[/QUOTE]

..and gays who do not accept or tolerate the bisexuals among us are equally guilty of contempt for a human being's right to be.. to deny the existence of something which so patently is, is an arrogance which is itself contemptible. It is bad enough not to make the effort to understand why people are as they are.. but to believe we know better than what is in the mind and heart of another human being is an appalling abuse of that right to be..

..gays have among their numbers the prejudiced, unpleasant and bigoted just like any other group of people.. but there has been much prejudice among bisexuals in this and other threads of a similar nature toward gays.. which reflects the reality of the outside world.. equally, within both bisexual and gay communities as well as the straight community, there is much contempt for the transgendered, and a lack of will by many to even try and understand why they are as they are.. and a huge amount against the straight community many of whom are much more than our friends... so throw stones inside the glasshouse if you will but just make sure you wear protection from the shattered and splintered glass..

We call ourselves the LGBT community.. we are a pretty loose community at the best of times, and many don't even accept themselves to be a part of it.. they are a part of it nevertheless, even if they are silent or oppose many of the things which we try to achieve.. and many do oppose much that we try to achieve.. many don't even want the support of the straight community.. even those who have gay, bisexual or transgendered parents or partners, brothers, sisters, sons or daughters, and some of these people have been quite vociferously and disgracefully attacked in forums... without people such as these and supporters in the wider straight community, we could never had made the progress we have in the last half century.

Whatever our sexuality, yes, even the straight, we have more in common than divides us.. and the sooner we all realise that and begin to try and accept each other's sexuality as it is, to tolerate each other and to try and understand what makes each and every one of us what we are, the more speedily we will overcome the divisions which the bigoted in the straight world seek to create among us, and the sooner we reach our goal of true equality and acceptance within our societies with the straight world as a whole...

The more often we throw stones at each other, the longer will be the fight to achieve our aim.. to be accepted and understood for what we are..:)

[BiCycler]

Reminds me of that time someone wrote an editorial in the paper saying he accepted gays already and didn't understand why they needed a pride parade to flamboyantly rub it in everyone's face.

I can kind of understand that, but I also know that there are many thousands of LGBT teens who commit suicide because they are isolated and told every negative thing about a part of their self-image that is very much a part of who they are. As well as gaybashings, murders, getting fired from a job, career loss, countries that prosecute and execute homosexuals etc. etc. etc.
Remember the dark ages? Well, none of us were there of course, but there were all sorts of atrosities committed against people for what I consider arbritraty reasons because I see no rational basis in the arguments for such atrocities. Witch hunts. How many innocent women (and a few men) were burned alive for being a witch?
Getting to the issue at hand; faggot is a word that has been used derisively for hundreds of years. Now, there are urban legends as to the etymology of the word but that it was used to hurt people in more ways than just the 'sticks and stones' sense, is very evident in historical texts. Most people now use the word to denote lameness or stupidity, including a woman I work with and respect greatly and has since been enlightened. (I'm not sure I like calling myself faggot anymore). That might seem harmless and might actually be intended as such. But the connotations are pervasive and creep into peolple's consciousness, eventually to the point where, when spoken, there is no connection in the speaker's mind to the affect the term or statement has. A personal example; I used to sing a certain song before a tag game (Eanie-Meanie, Miney, Moe...). My mom substituted a certain word us kids used with the word 'tigger'. As a young boy, I had no idea why my mom did that, but as a young adult it dawned on me one day when reflecting on my past. I was suddenly mortified that we sang that seemingly innocuous rhyme. And thank you mom for shining the light, paying attention and giving me a suitable alternative to use. Were we evil kids? Would we have told someone to get over themselves if they told us it was wrong and hurtful to sing that song?

I got the quote below from---->http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot


The oft-heard statement that male homosexuals were called faggots in reference to their being burned at the stake is an etymological urban legend. That the term is so often mistaken to describe the inaccuracy above, gives that very notion life and ties it to the word faggot. So, real or not, the message and sentiment is still there.

From the same source above,
Burning was sometimes a punishment meted out to homosexuals in Christian Europe (on the suggestion of the Biblical fate of Sodom and Gomorah), but in England, where parliament had made homosexuality a capital offense in 1533, hanging was the method prescribed. Pick your own marginalized group of people and similar stories abound: Past as well as current. We have come so far from this. We have so far yet to go. There are places in the world where homosexuals are executed or jailed for their sexuality or for practicing their sexuality. There are people who would welcome a return to such atrocities. People have fought hard to make change in society. (Have a look at the film "Milk"). Personally, I think it's a great film.

So, to those of you that are saying get over yourself, think about that again. Sure, some poeple whine about percieved injustice, but there is real injustice in this world. There are those that work hard to create second class citizens (from any group you wish to name including the sexualy diverse). And without the voices of discontent, there is no progress. Societies are organic entities forever changing and evolving (devolving too). I think we live in much better societies than most I have read about. (Of course some places are less evolved or, if you prefer, differently evolved than others). Where do you suppose that change comes from? I am sure someone out there is thinking, yes, but... I agree, some people do little more than whine or complain about their situation. Little use is that for real change. We all have a resposibility to buck up and thicken our skin as well. How does this relate to the OP? The question he asks speaks to all of this. Our OP asked if he should come out. Several opinions and arguments have been presented. In the end, that the OP found it necessary to ask his question, tells us the issue is still ongoing.

I want to address the points raised that speak to how being out or not effects partners. I read that it is annoying to partners already out to have to lie and hide for your partner. I also read that I am done with all that drama. Well, bully for you. Coming out is complex. Not everyone's sexual awakening experiences are the same. Many professions have mentoring programs or practica for people beginning their careers in their chosen profession. I had great mentors for the most part. People who seemed to really understand any anxiety or uncertainty I had. People who guided me and showed me better ways to do the things I was fumbling about trying to do on my own. Without those helpful people, I'm sure I would have floundered. I had the good fortune to have one asshole for a mentor too. He taught me all sorts of valuable lessons about assholes. He made life for me as miserable as he could. I began to doubt my career choice. Throughout my time with him, he worked hard to build barriers to my progress. I thought for a while he was testing my mettle by making things tough. The mentality that says if you can rise against this adversity you will be able to handle anything that comes your way during your career. That was untill I put together those actions, with his own self-promotion of being the epitome of his profession. At the conlusion of my prep time (six weeks observation and completing a year long body of work), he told me he wasn't going to sign off on my work for the university. That would mean a failing grade and expulsion from the program. Took me six years to get to where I was at that point. My world fell apart. Thankfully, wisdom prevailed and the faculty backed me 100% and redirected me to another practicum. I asked him on that last day, ready to burst into flames, cry, or die, why he took a practicum student. His answer told all. He plainly stated, "oh, I never wanted a practicum student, it was my turn and this was forced on me." (A local agreement amongst staff at that particular site). In my profession, at least where I live, mentoring someone is voluntary. Some never mentor anyone throughout their entire careers. I've heard some such people say things like; "it's a lot of work", "I'm too busy for that", "I'd probably get a difficult person to work with and I'd end up doing all the work, theirs and mine." That is their prerogative. I take on mentors almost every year because while I was getting the help I required and feeling so relieved and grateful to have such help, I promised myself I would return the favour and pay it forward. Please don't misread me here. I don't mean to say we all have to rush out to pick someone up off the ground and embrace them and tell them it's all going to be ok. All I'm really saying is be less dismissive to those who are not out and have some compassion too. And maybe, just once in a while, look at the person your with and do your best to see the world through their eyes.:flag2::rainbow:

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"Those who choose to not follow the social norms of any societal group will find their lives more difficult. That is their choice, and not the fault of the group at large."

Being excluded is not exactly their choice. I know it may appear that it is but it is not, at least not always. With exclusion does follow adversities in not having support readily at hand when living out pursuit of dreams, or happiness.

We are granted the right to pursue happiness in the U.S., all of us upon equal grounds, minority to majority and points between. At least that seems what the intent of The American Dream and founding wrested from history and the world.

To proffer a view such as you present here really disheartens me. It says, from my perception, "no one cares, period." And I do hope you're not saying that but if so, you're so far off base they'll need a trip unto Jupiter to find you.

The majority sways control. That is a fact. Control merits benefits and advantages, another fact as well. And you are saying that by choosing not to follow the majority forces being swept aside, left to die or whatever. "No one cares, period."

If you tell a child something enough, what is said becomes instilled and ingrained to them. "Any fool can do this, only requires training." And people are trained, no rather they are programmed by the majority. We are human capital and our return on investment is our labor.

The majority decided industrial revolution was the way to go many a moon. Now, we have factories that are shells with no one working. Technology has replaced industry as a revolution. In fact, I think technology will /(has caused) cause an evolution and one profound enough to not require revolution.

We are no longer being trained or programmed to be and do the best. Last night, out of eleven hours on a work schedule, I only worked about four. The rest was spent upon waiting for others to do their jobs which in turn would let me be clear to attend mine. But I was and will be paid for eleven hours, or ten and half considering a half hour lunch.

My supervisor played hide and go seek. I need his clearance to finish part of my work. Damned if I'm going to waste time chasing after someone to beg for work. I'm there obviously to work, but yet ... and so it goes, the majority demanding useless product, which by the way was stockpiled well in bulk. It will reside several months in our company warehouse.

Meanwhile, the energy expended last night may have better served to rebuild homes, deliver food and medicines. We might have built a school or library, maybe even rallied donations of computers or clothing. Maybe we could have cleaned up after ourselves a bit. Or, we could have fostered conversations based in diplomacy and tact to attain more resources while offering some of our own.

You may ask what all that has to do with being excluded from your controlling majority. Well, those are dreams which some of the minority hold onto. We don't need any more of your rotting factories or giga-mall shops filled with useless crap which kills our planet. How many kinds of flashlights do you really need anyway, or how many flavors of orange beverage?

What is, is, sure. I can agree on that. But I refuse to agree that "no one cares, period." Some of us do care and it isn't from Orwell we get it. You see human beings need this horrid thing, an idea, quite the trite little scamp really, love and belonging. We are not machines you just plug into a larger machine in hopes to produce a majority owned utopia. We're aware of balance.

Balance tells us when there is excess things get nasty real quick. You get hoards, and they need armies to be protected. Sure enough you get human error involved then, someone gets killed for simply existing. They may not have been after the hoarded crap but nonetheless they are dead. Blood further spills as is per quo, violence only begets the same.

But hey, "no one cares, period." We can just tune it all as ravings of lunatics on the fringes, mildly appealing entertainment but yet "only fiction". We don't think about brothers or sisters, mothers, fathers and so on.

There's that love and belonging again, it makes life worth something more priceless than oxygen needed for respiration. It provides a purpose to otherwise existing to exist, or being a machine preforming a function. Odd that, eh?

And I feel this all ties back to the original thread nicely. As people, human beings, it is nice to not only feel tolerated but part of our own species. It ought not matter who sleep with behind closed doors. But this funky majority of us in control thinks it does. "You belong to a minority? Well, no one cares, period."

Because no one does the expectation is to then be as the majority. "We are all the same machine. If you are different it is by choice alone and bully to you if we slaughter you." That's always a pleasant way to present oneself, isn't it, indeed? And such is the hammer and anvil given in your presentation. It's not fiction, just look outside and you too can see it.

I would imagine any media could more than likely offer you scads of it, no need to go outside, even. So I choose to dream, to explore, to live. I choose to learn and evolve, adapt and survive. If that means I must switch out thinking a factory can sustain what my family needs, so be it. If it means I reduce the plastics I use, so be that too. Do I need to learn about aquaculture? Sure, I'll get started.

I need to communicate with others having different ideas and dreams? Count me in. I need to respect those others in order to respect myself? Better believe I'm on it.

See? I break the ingrained molding offered. I'm human, it's what we do. We go to the moon because it's there. We set aside prejudices and work together for larger dreams, ones we can share, minority to majority. But then I run into the inevitable, indestructible, immovable wall of "no one cares, period."

"Ugh. You need to continue moving to live, adapting to survive, accepting new and different things. Do not mire yourself in apathy and excesses."

Out.

NB: Apologies. Yes such ideas really do piss me off. And hopefully I've attacked only the idea/s. If this wanton missive has scathed persons it was not intended. Besides, I felt there was further to say. So, I did. But it really doesn't help because ultimately a cigar is still cigar. I tire of being Sisyphus, gladly hand someone else the mantle.