What's With All These Kinky, Pagan Bisexuals?

By Dana Shaw

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/image...f/author21.jpg

A number of years ago I was sitting in a lounge space of a Wiccan church¹s main congregation and I suddenly realized that all the women around me identified as bisexual. I turned to one of the gals there and asked, "Are there any women you know of here who aren't bi?" The witchlet I was talking to looked around the room, mumbled to herself, consulted with a friend and replied saying that she could only think of one completely straight woman in the group. She added that there are some bi men, but mostly they're straight. I thought that was quite interesting and filed it away for later.

I've been a member and leader of a number of kinky groups over the past 18 years. I've observed that amongst kinky folks, the vast majority of women are at least open to playing with other women and many are bi-identified. While some of them only play or have sex with women because it's what their (mostly male) dominants want, few of them really object to it. Some of them have threesomes that include their male partners on a regular basis. Many of them play with other women regularly. Sometimes these men play with other men, though seeing sexual activity between men amongst the 'pansexual' kink community is fairly rare.

It's often been pointed out to me, as a person known for championing bi visibility, that the women in the kink community really don't seem to need bi community, since they have each other. Not having a bi-only community means not having to hide being kinky, since bi community is open to kink but it's not necessarily a given that the people there are understanding of kinky folks.

But it's not just about pagans and kinky people. There are many outcast groups that have a higher number of bisexual people than the Œregular¹ population. There is a strong prevalence of bisexuals (especially women) amongst role playing gamers, Goths, sci-fi fanatics, members of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA), community theatre folks, people very much into body modification and tattooing, and a huge number of other outcast groups too numerous to single out.

As for polyamorous folks, it should be unsurprising that most of them are bisexual, even if they choose not to use the label for a variety of reasons. Polyamory is about fluidity in relationships and sexuality, and that includes fluidity regarding sexual orientation and gender identity.

So why is bisexuality so common for people in these 'outcast' groups? Why do they find each other so easily and therefore lack a need for a community built specifically around bisexuality and its challenges?

When I was asked this question a number of years ago I felt that the answer lay in the idea of open-mindedness. If you've already become a member of one 'outcast' group such as goths, pagans, kinky people, etc., then it becomes easy to be accepting of other aspects of life that are socially unaccepted, such as same-sex relationships. But I felt that may not be the whole answer.

I took the question to a workshop at the 8th International Conference on Bisexuality, Gender and Sexual Diversity (8ICB) in Minneapolis in 2004, and asked the participants what they thought. I first asked them to come up with other groups they felt had a large population of bisexual people. Then we drew out the similarities in each of those groups. Finally, we talked about what drew bisexual people to them. The result was very interesting, but rather than consider that the final answer, I did the same workshop two more times, in 2005 and 2006. Each time there were some similarities in the answers, but the result went further.

At 9ICB in Toronto in 2006, I conducted this workshop with some of the ideas of the previous workshops already in my head wanting to delve further in to the heart of the matter. I think we finally hit the nail on the head there.

All of the outcast groups that we identified as having a fairly high population of bisexuals were noted for having challenged the norms of belief systems, relationship structures, values and ethics. These are the people who've thrown off the societally-imposed ideas of having a nuclear genetic family unit. They've rejected the judgements of their elders, which they view as unnecessarily restrictive in favour of the judgement of their peers, which is often more accepting. They have chosen to build their family amongst the people in the various outcast communities because their friends understand why they have rejected the standard values and ethics.

Specifically, people in these outcast groups have often challenged‹and then rejected‹the monotheistic ideal of North American judeo-christian notions of right and wrong. Most of them have also rejected ³traditional² religion. One of the strongest moralistic messages they reject is that of sex as sin. Once you can embrace it as a joyous, unshameful thing, sexuality can be viewed as more fluid and less restrictive. From there it's easy to consider homophobic rhetoric as a method of religious control for the purpose of furthering religion through the doctrine of procreation. Acceptance of or experimentation with same-sex attractions or sexual activity is a natural next step. Rather than rejecting homosexual behaviour, one can embrace it when the question of sex as sin is no longer an issue. It's no longer immoral, but natural.

There's more than just giving up on the idea of sex as sin and therefore homosexuality as sinful to there being so many bisexuals amongst these outcast groups. There's also the idea of shrugging off societal values of family and relationship structures in general. From there, it becomes easy to see heteronormative family structures as a construction of religion, which led to the construction of the family unit as sacred. Without the sacred family unit, you can accept any person or group as family by choice.

Suddenly we¹re no longer restricted to male-female relationships for the purpose of procreation and passing on the religious and societal ideals. We can choose whatever relationship structures we wish, unrestricted by whether or not they produce children and who raises them. It no longer matters how many mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and whether or not they're genetically related. It's all family because we choose it to be so and we reinforce that by declaring this to whomsoever comes into contact with these intentional families.

Even where there are no children, families can come to mean "my community" or "my friends" or even, "my partners and their partners". This need not be restricted by gender, and thus, bisexuality is a natural outcome of having challenged and rejected the idea of the 'normal' family unit.

But why is it that there are so many more women who seem drawn to bisexuality than men in these outcast groups? Why is it not as common to see men going at it right next to the women? Why is it that many of these groups espouse openness to homosexuality but seem to be only accepting of it amongst women?

Even if you reject the ideas of heteronormative behaviour, there are some aspects of socialization that are very difficult to overcome. Despite the idea of male homosexuality being accepted in principle, men are so deeply socialized to reject expressions of affection amongst themselves that they have a hard time accepting it as natural. They've had it drilled into them from a very young age that men don't touch each other, shouldn't see each other touching and shouldn't want to be in physical contact except in expressions of mock combat (sports and organized competition) or true combat (struggles for dominance). The idea of being in physical contact for some other reason that isn't based on strength or posturing has been socialized as abhorrent, and rejecting that deeply ingrained socialization is as difficult as rejecting the idea that one shouldn't pass gas in front of the Queen of England. It's just simply 'not done'.

Women have it easy because we're socialized to be open to touching each other, dancing together, kissing and flirting. Add the male-dominated pornographic sexualization of women having sex together for men's entertainment and it stands to reason that women engaging in homosexual acts‹that sometimes do and sometimes don't include men‹is considered perfectly acceptable. We see it everywhere in our society.

So if that's the case, why is it that bisexual folks are able to be so comfortably 'out' as bisexual and engaged in multi-gendered relationships in these outcast groups and not in the general population? It's a simple matter of 'me too'.

In the general population it's not safe to express same-sex attraction because the expectation is that we conform to the societal norms of straight and valuing the ideal of the genetic nuclear family. Being in an outcast group means having already rejected those ideals as incompatible with one's value system. It makes it easier to behave in ways that challenge the existing structures. Once one person successfully challenges the heteronormative assumptions, it becomes very easy for others to follow, agreeing with the newly espoused of values around sexuality and relationships and accepting these as normal.

So.... back to the question. What's with all these kinky, pagan (and other outcast groups) bisexuals? Quite simply, it's because we've already chosen that this reality is normal... for us.

***

Dana Shaw is a self-identified bi-dyke, kinky, poly, Wiccan Chaplain who's crazily putting together two conferences within six weeks in spring of 2006 - 9icb and TOKink. Dana has been an organizer with Bisexual Women of Toronto since 1999 and with Toronto Bisexual Network and BiNetCanada since 2001. She previously presented at the North American Conference on Bisexuality, Gender and Sexual Diversity in Vancouver in 2001 and at the 8th International Conference on Bisexuality in 2004. Dana is a contributor to Getting Bi: Voices of Bisexuals Around the World, edited by Robyn Ochs. She has also contributed to the bi women's zine The Fence and other articles in print and web. Dana is passionate about ensuring that there are safe bi spaces for the broad diversity of those who might claim them.

(c) Copryight 2006 Dana Shaw

I agree completely that the concept of sex being sinful is just a social/religeous construct designed for control, and that rejecting that idea is the path to freedom no matter what your kink. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drew

By Dana Shaw


Even if you reject the ideas of heteronormative behaviour, there are some aspects of socialization that are very difficult to overcome. Despite the idea of male homosexuality being accepted in principle, men are so deeply socialized to reject expressions of affection amongst themselves that they have a hard time accepting it as natural. They've had it drilled into them from a very young age that men don't touch each other, shouldn't see each other touching and shouldn't want to be in physical contact except in expressions of mock combat (sports and organized competition) or true combat (struggles for dominance). The idea of being in physical contact for some other reason that isn't based on strength or posturing has been socialized as abhorrent, and rejecting that deeply ingrained socialization is as difficult as rejecting the idea that one shouldn't pass gas in front of the Queen of England. It's just simply 'not done'.

---

That really is a great article! There are a lot of truths in it. :)

While I do agree with the idea of men being somewhat repressed by society in terms of expressing affection, etc, I am also very hesitant to point to this as the *only* reason. I am also not convinced that mens expressions of "mock combat", strength and posturing is somehow "bad" or strictly imposed by society.

Men and women are, in fact, wired differently. It is not bad, wrong or society imposed. One is not better than the other. We are just different. We are supposed to be, and it's all good.

I'll grant you that society *does* heavily influence these differences, but then it also turns around and tries to say that men are somehow "deficient" in their ability to express emotion in the same way that women do.

While it may be true to a certain extent that men don't express emotion the same as women do because it's "simply not done", I believe that is only part of the equation. I think a larger part of the equation would be that men "simply don't express emotion in the same way that women do."

Why do we keep trying to fix something that's not broken?

I find it a bit ironic that within these "outcast" groups (as you refer to them) that seem to highly value and try to be very accepting of the diversity of the human condition, have a tendency to be ignorant of the value, and rather unaccepting, of the wonderful and diverse differences between men and women.

This is a great article--my God--so much of what she says is --well----ME!!!

I basically have done many of the things she speaks of--I had a time when I was very active as a pagan/wiccan and I had rejected the formal religion I had been brought up with--Roman Catholocism--I became a member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation for a time.

I did reject very early the notion that I had to become a parent---having children was something I had not much interest in doing.

Along with some friends from my UU church--we investigated the poly lifestyle as well.

I had done all of these things long before I had acknowledged I was not fully a "str8" person, but I certainly had my suspicions I was not.

Excellent article--thanks Drew and company for posting that article!!!

Dear Dana,
I have been a student of Gavin and Yvonne's Church and School of Wicca for over 20 years. Sex is beautiful, sex is glorious, but sex, quite frankly, is such a pain in the ass to get its hardly even worth discussing. Give me my 700 watt Peavey bass amp with crossover, my 2 Peavey 15"cabinets, a good bunch of musicians, and a good crowd, all the beer I can drink, and I'm happy.
Music is what makes me happy.....I get the validation and acceptance I never got sexually, and probably never will. MY band is trying to set up a gig in Atlantic City, NJ during the Frosts Beltane Celebration. I've earned initiation into the Craft....perhaps I ought to get my ass dedicated this year. I also look forward to rattling Glenn 'Boy Scout" Malec's cage by vomiting onstage.... and I have some new comedy bits I want to try out, using my old friend Bill Nolan, who was the vocalist for The Bastards, a band/comedy act I used to play with. So pack up your balls and load up your cannons for a 21 gun salute.......and have a drink on me. -Roger "Stuporman" Boni 31YI

This article is OK.

I personally find discussion of paganism and polyamory to be rather pointless though.

Most pagans I meet seem to be so hardcore into it that they remind me of fundementalist Christians.

I don't see polyamory as being revolutionary either.

But kink I am all for! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drew

But why is it that there are so many more women who seem drawn to bisexuality than men in these outcast groups? Why is it not as common to see men going at it right next to the women? Why is it that many of these groups espouse openness to homosexuality but seem to be only accepting of it amongst women?

---

*******************************
Reading through your piece, I recognized several observations that were similar to mine over the years but if I may, I'd like to amend or qualify the way I have observed them from my unique male (but not chauvinistic) perspective.

It's true that in the observable social context, there seems to be far more women who identify as bisexual than men and the media which includes mostly entertainment, helps support this ideology. The media will glamourise, even trivialise anything that espouses being "in". For some reason, this categorically includes bi and gay men. A marginalisation which can mostly be attributed to suggestive messages from Hollyweird, to chip the tip of the iceberg, over the years. This marginalistaion has caused its shocking share of violence and grief. Stigma and dogma are proverbial bitches.

But these monolistic ideals just don't add up. There has to be something more than what we see. I think we can all agree that slight of hand is the media's best trick. How men are affected and treated because of their various levels of homosexual senses, part of what and who they are, makes them conceal it as a survival mechanism.

So where do you find this out? Gay bars and alternative bars and events maybe but it's still far too visible for some men to handle. When some men have been murdered for "looking" gay, believe me, the fear of exposure men feel keeps some to curl their neckhairs 24/7. It can be very tense. Many, but not most, are married raising kids and they're in a deep turmoil because of the possible consequences should the news get out. The pressure is enormous if your wife is homophobic. The stakes are very high.

Men have needs and desires just as women do. And those needs and desires vary as much as retinal patterns and snowflakes. What men have needed over the centuries was a place out of the way. Out of sight, out of mind.

Saunas.

If it wasn't for these temples of male sexuality, their suicide rate (which is already about twice as high than women's) would reach much alarming numbers. They're the safest place on earth where men can, away from any prejudicial view from a tyrranic and controlling minority to liberate themselves and express their sexuality. Not that several of the guys who go there wouldn't mind having women around too :) but the very fact that they've found a place where other men like them go. The therapeutic value alone is incalculable.

It makes me wonder why women don't have similar vestiges. There must be great suffering. When you factor in these types of establishments and the internet, chatlines and parks, you have a buffer on the perceived amount of gay or bisexual men. Likely, for women too. I have an idea. Call me!

SpaZZ

My own version of chicken vs. egg...

I was never a member of any of these "outcast" groups until after I identified as bisexual. I sought them out as a place to find dates once I realized I would like to date both men and women.

I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". It was a more primal, selfish reason for seeking the groups out. I was like the proverbial frat boy going to a party to pick up on chicks.

I would like to think I was more cerebral. I wish it was me "challenging the monotheistic ideal of North American Judeo-Christian notions of right and wrong". But in all honesty I just wanted to get some, and went to these groups to find it.

So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhuth

My own version of chicken vs. egg...

I was never a member of any of these "outcast" groups until after I identified as bisexual. I sought them out as a place to find dates once I realized I would like to date both men and women.

I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". It was a more primal, selfish reason for seeking the groups out. I was like the proverbial frat boy going to a party to pick up on chicks.

I would like to think I was more cerebral. I wish it was me "challenging the monotheistic ideal of North American Judeo-Christian notions of right and wrong". But in all honesty I just wanted to get some, and went to these groups to find it.

So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

---

Well said Rhuth. Sometimes I think people attempt to over-intellectualise why they do what they do and as often as not deceive themselves in the process. I too "just wanted to get some" and if it took joining some quasi intellectual or fad group to do it so be it. However poseurish they may have been they didnt seem to mind because I think they were there for just the same reason in the end and their prattle and self justification never really washed. luv

Well, I'm a bi male pagan, but I sure as hell don't know any others. I know oodles of bi pagan women, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sammie19

Well said Rhuth. Sometimes I think people attempt to over-intellectualise...

---

Thank you, Sammie! I just want to make clear that it was not my intention to accuse Dana Shaw of over intellectualization. On the contrary, I absolutely enjoy reading seemingly unnecessary analysis of sociology. The article is obviously well researched and documented too.

My point was only to add to her analysis another dimension that could be explored. While I found bisexuality first, and went to these groups to find dates, that might not be the case for everyone. It is just as likely that someone else likes all that these groups have to offer, and became bisexual afterward because someone like me kept trying to pick up on them.

Ms. Shaw only pointed out that these crossovers exist, and then touched on reasons why they exist and what it means to bisexuals as a group. Her speculations were founded on years of personal interviews and group discussions in formal settings. By default, such studies are never exact science, but I almost always find them interesting. I thank her for her efforts, and want to encourage her to continue.

In addition to my chicken vs. egg question, we could come up with countless other questions for her to follow up with. Much more than any one person or group could cover in a lifetime. I especially found the question previous posters posed questioning weather masculine combative interaction was really a bad thing. What kind of society is really ideal?

For me, it brought to mind studies of chimpanzees with their patriarchal social structure, and the bonobos with their matriarchal social structure. The bonobos are highly bisexual, and the males still engage in combative posturing even though they have nothing to gain socially from it. There was footage in a documentary where one male changed his mind mid-charge and decided to end the confrontation in sex instead. Now THERE is an AFL football game I would enjoy watching in a human society!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpaZZ

*******************************
Reading through your piece, I recognized several observations that were similar to mine over the years but if I may, I'd like to amend or qualify the way I have observed them from my unique male (but not chauvinistic) perspective.

It's true that in the observable social context, there seems to be far more women who identify as bisexual than men and the media which includes mostly entertainment, helps support this ideology. The media will glamourise, even trivialise anything that espouses being "in". For some reason, this categorically includes bi and gay men. A marginalisation which can mostly be attributed to suggestive messages from Hollyweird, to chip the tip of the iceberg, over the years. This marginalistaion has caused its shocking share of violence and grief. Stigma and dogma are proverbial bitches.

But these monolistic ideals just don't add up. There has to be something more than what we see. I think we can all agree that slight of hand is the media's best trick. How men are affected and treated because of their various levels of homosexual senses, part of what and who they are, makes them conceal it as a survival mechanism.

So where do you find this out? Gay bars and alternative bars and events maybe but it's still far too visible for some men to handle. When some men have been murdered for "looking" gay, believe me, the fear of exposure men feel keeps some to curl their neckhairs 24/7. It can be very tense. Many, but not most, are married raising kids and they're in a deep turmoil because of the possible consequences should the news get out. The pressure is enormous if your wife is homophobic. The stakes are very high.

Men have needs and desires just as women do. And those needs and desires vary as much as retinal patterns and snowflakes. What men have needed over the centuries was a place out of the way. Out of sight, out of mind.

Saunas.

If it wasn't for these temples of male sexuality, their suicide rate (which is already about twice as high than women's) would reach much alarming numbers. They're the safest place on earth where men can, away from any prejudicial view from a tyrranic and controlling minority to liberate themselves and express their sexuality. Not that several of the guys who go there wouldn't mind having women around too :) but the very fact that they've found a place where other men like them go. The therapeutic value alone is incalculable.

It makes me wonder why women don't have similar vestiges. There must be great suffering. When you factor in these types of establishments and the internet, chatlines and parks, you have a buffer on the perceived amount of gay or bisexual men. Likely, for women too. I have an idea. Call me!

SpaZZ

---

There are bath houses for women but they're in San Francisco, Canada, and probably in europe and Asia too.

As far as I've been told by lesbian/bi women that go to such places is that they're not like men's bath houses.

Men's bath houses are havens for disease, meth, barebacking (unprotected anal sex), and closted men (most of whom are married and cheating) who wouldn't be caught dead in a queer bar/club/space (i.e. a social or discussion group, or just a social club that's not all about sex/hooking up).

From what I gather about women's bath houses is that they're havens for safer sex (latex gloves, dental dams/saran wrap, and condoms for toys are provided/mandatory) and while women do go there for sex you don't have to go there for sex and if you REALLY do want sex it's very easy to find; but some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

As far as parks and adult bookstores, avoid those places they're full of disease, dodgy/sketchy characters, closeted married men, and sometimes they can be raided by undercover cops.

Yes I will admit I am biased against closeted gay/bi men but I've seriously had horrible experiences with them (like having them flip out at me, tell me I'm the one with problems not them, tell me how I'll become Poz/HIV+ [when closeted/married men take HORRIBLE risks such as barebacking or swallowing], or beat me up and call me a faggot) and I've met ones that are so closeted that they don't even know that they're gay/bi/queer/non-het.

I feel compassion for them but again I see this as living a lie and partialy their own fault that they aren't out to their spouse/partner, and frankly I'm sick and tired of playing therapist/Dr. Phil for closeted men who won't take me or my advice seriously.

The way I see it is that you only get one life, so why live a complete lie and pretend that you're heterosexual?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

There are bath houses for women but they're in San Francisco, Canada, and probably in europe and Asia too.

As far as I've been told by lesbian/bi women that go to such places is that they're not like men's bath houses.

Men's bath houses are havens for disease, meth, barebacking (unprotected anal sex), and closted men (most of whom are married and cheating) who wouldn't be caught dead in a queer bar/club/space (i.e. a social or discussion group, or just a social club that's not all about sex/hooking up).

From what I gather about women's bath houses is that they're havens for safer sex (latex gloves, dental dams/saran wrap, and condoms for toys are provided/mandatory) and while women do go there for sex you don't have to go there for sex and if you REALLY do want sex it's very easy to find; but some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

---

I can only speak for Toronto, but I could say for it that not one women's bathhouse night in Toronto has happened in a place that is exclusively for women and trans people. Generally, the events are two to four times a year, so the vast majority of the year, the same place is a men's sauna.

I love Rhuth's perspective, you are both intelligent and beautiful hon!

Loved the article, even the 'unecessary analysis'. As a trans-itional guy I have found a great deal of pressure to be the 'man' I am supposed to be. From my parents, piers, siblings, x- wife, girlfriends...the list goes on. Even now I find I have to think twice before holding another mans hand. Who will see us, are we in a safe place for such affection?

Slowly I have shunned or cast off the fetters of society, organized religion, homophobia, racism, intolerance, gender roles, marketing, and mens underwear! The more of these things I choose to lose, the greater is my joy and capacity to love.

I am no longer catholic, I am spiritual. I am not bisexual, gay, or straight, I am sexual. I am no longer male or female, white or dark, I am human. These things do not define me, therefore I am free.

As Jesus once said 'I am'. I hope that we can all feel the same way.

Hugs, Sally

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azrael

Well, I'm a bi male pagan, but I sure as hell don't know any others. I know oodles of bi pagan women, though.

---

I do have to agree with you Az---I had kind of hoped to find other guys who were pagan/wiccan who were bi or "bicurious" I was just coming to a realization that I might have some bicurius desires--they were starting to emerge at the time.

I knew that many of the ladies who were pagan/wiccan were bi or lesbian---I figured the guys would be, but no---the guys I met were very much hetero.

In the rather small community of pagan/wiccans in our area at the time--the ladies who I liked and who liked me were already with guys or gals---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

Men's bath houses are havens for disease, meth, barebacking (unprotected anal sex), and closted men (most of whom are married and cheating) who wouldn't be caught dead in a queer bar/club/space (i.e. a social or discussion group, or just a social club that's not all about sex/hooking up).

From what I gather about women's bath houses is that they're havens for safer sex (latex gloves, dental dams/saran wrap, and condoms for toys are provided/mandatory) and while women do go there for sex you don't have to go there for sex and if you REALLY do want sex it's very easy to find; but some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

---

This is sort of seedy understanding of gay or bi men and men in general. But I can understand it. Now I can't be positive but I'm just guessing that the last time you went to a gay sauna was a very longtime ago. No matter.

Listen, the majority of guys who hang out in saunas are there just to hang out (as it were). If they're married, it's likelier that the problem is at home and not in society.

Condom wrappers are a common sight on floors in the corridors, rooms. That's a sign that the education is working. Guys do talk to each other in these places. They open up more. Sure, saunas have a certain level of micro-organisms but so did a Toronto restaurant though people still went to eat there.

In saunas, men take excessive showers. With soap, even. They exchange towels regularly. The sheets on beds are changed every time a room is given up. I don't know that many people who swallow or even have anal sex for that matter. Most guys are into toys, if anything. Their own. They don't trade. I'm sure you can appreciate how expensive a collection can be. And we haven't figured out a use for saran wrap other than bringing along a sandwich. Sex makes you hungry. :bigrin:

Sure, there's creepy guys out there! I've met my share of creepy women too. But that's a small minority of people on the whole. Most people are good and not a selfish, lazy, boneheaded, disease-infested, bastard worm.

I'm not trying to be malicious, but I wouldn't be able to categorise men and women in such a yin and yeng fashion. I've never actually seen women be truly intimate with each other, at least, not without a camera. I'm not sure that I'm alllowed to make a judgement call or even speculate. Actually to me, that's the beauty of loving women. To seek their essence at its freshest moment. And then get blasted high and do something absolutely freakin' crazy like turn it into music or art. Yeah!

People can get sick anywhere. And there are alot of reasons for it. Disease doesn't differentiate between genders. I think that's more of a human response. Women and men are more alike than unalike. It really depends on each individual. I do like your points on health issues and agree with them totally. Thanks for bringing it up. :bibounce: :flag1:

i am a bi pagan woman and my husband is a bi pagan man and i took offense to alot of the things in your article and it is my oppinion that you absolutely do not know what you are talking about when it comes to wicca. i have never felt like an "outcast" and do not appreciate being categorised by you or stereotyped and i don't think anyone i know would appreciate it either. i was raised christian, but i knew from an early age that conventional religion is not all there is and is not the whole truth. i think it is completely ignorant for anyone in any religion to judge anyone else because of their beliefs or sexual orientation. the reason there are so many diverse "outcasts" in wicca is because we are a nature based religion that accepts everyone for who they are and we do not judge any one for sexual preference or personal beliefs, unlike other religions that judge you if you don't believe what they want you to or what they think you should. the Bible says we all have free will and if practicing the one basic power that everyone possesses makes one an "outcast", then i feel sorry for those who don't and to me they are the real outcasts. we are entitled to our oppinions and beliefs, but ifeel if you are going to speak about a particular group of people or about a particular subject that you should atleast be educated enough on the topic to give a well informed oppinion and not just ignorant uninformed oppinions!

Thats so true , well i am different from the rest of the crowd, im not in a group but its easy to see that im not part of the NORMS.
Its sad at the same time , because if i dont go into certain group im not accepted......and me ....if im attracted to""NORMAL'' people and no goth or what ever the name, what am i suppose to do.........still not really easy all that stuff....

Was nice to read ya .

I have to say that I think that "outcast" is a poor choice of words for these groups -- particularly if you're including community theatre and sci-fi fans, for example. I'm a theatre person, artist, musician, somewhat bisexual, and a "leftist," but have never considered myself an "outcast." It is true that bisexuality is more accepted/tolerated in these groups than in the general population. That female bisexuality is more accepted in these groups than male bisexuality, actually mirrors the general population(!). I do think that the source of the greater acceptance of bisexuality by people in these groups (wether community theatre folks or polyamourous wiccans) can be because they have recognized that there is something different in themselves from many others, and this engenders a certain empathy for other "different" people. Sometimes; but not always -- take the "Log Cabin Republicans" for instance. Their interest in their own civil rights as homosexuals has not translated into empathy for the ecconomically disadvantaged, immigrants, minorities, or even advocacy of the separation of church and state. As far as "kink" goes, I think that's a separate (if overlapping) question. The diplomat recently in the news who was discovered in a public space drunk, nude, tied-up, "wearing"[?] several sex-toys -- this guy definately had some major kink going on, but as a member of the international diplomatic corp, you could hardly classsify him as an "outcast!"
I also think the characterization of religion is grossly oversimplified. As a religious person, member of a mainline-protestant group, I have never found my religious beliefs to push me towards intollerance, social control, or to repress my sexuality. Just the opposite, it has been one of the sources of my progressive political beliefs and my acceptance of people from other groups (religious, ethnic, or gender-preference). I admit that I am in the minority in this regard, but I'm not the only one -- you only have to look to the civil rights movement, or the large factions of the Episcopal Church that are defending gay clergy and gay marriage to see 2 examples.
I am sure there are many examples of the dynamic you describe, but I think you extrapolate a bit too broadly. I remember a logic lesson from high-school geometry -- "All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares."

Peace.

The article was very truthful and informative, thanks much for posting. As dumb as this sounds... old TV shows like the 'Adams Family' were always popular, not so much because they were funny, but they were so much 'against the norm'.. a real opposite of what society was all about. This explains why the parents of so many of the 'baby bombers' objected to their kids watching those type shows.

I realized I was 'bi' when I was 14 years old and have always accepted the alternative groups for the exact reasons you stated.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts..

I totaly agree that males are so beaten in with the no same sex affection thing. A friend and I had a conversation about it afew months back.
My thinking is that there's alot more bi males out there but they don't want to compromise thier lumberjack/pirate/footballer male type image , if you get what I mean.

I thought this was a very interesting article, and I had a number of questions and observations spring to mind as I was reading.

First, why would there be a larger proportion of bi women than bi men in these fringe groups. Is this assumption valid? I'll say that I have never been to a Wiccan gathering, so I am not sure about the sexual overtones at these gatherings. Could it be that women open up to women on this topic in a way that men would not? In a group setting, would a man be as likely to admit bisexual tendencies to a woman? I think it's not as likely. Keep in mind that men (especially bisexual men) are still on the prowl for women, and admitting to being a bisexual might be perceived by him as hurting his chances of picking up a woman. Just how do you know that most or all of the women in a group are bi? Do you just say, "Hi, I'm bi, are you?" This isn't a facetious question. I am just curious.

It could be that a different social dynamic operates for women than for men. Women seem to be drawn to groups where it is safer, and maybe more validating to search for partners. Men, on the other hand, may tend to operate on more of a one to one basis where the risks are higher than a woman would accept. Men might tend to look for partners on the internet among other places, and set up meetings one on one where the intent of the meeting is known beforehand. It's more risky for a man to walk around a group with no sexual context (maybe I should say no bisexual/gay context - there is always a sexual context in groups of men and women) and say, "Hi, I'm bi, are you?" This is just asking to get in a fight, or worse.

I am probably projecting from my own experience and tendencies. I am somewhat shy in groups. It takes me a while to say my name and ask the names of others. Discussing my sexual orientation is several orders of social magnitude beyond that.

Regards,
WC

ive had a few realtionships that never lasted 2 were striaght one was gay.
the gay one one upset me more than most
im not into one night stands or anything
just hoping to meet men /women who are interested in simlar things to me ie art , poetry wildlife and lots of other things besides
thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enoll

I totaly agree that males are so beaten in with the no same sex affection thing. A friend and I had a conversation about it afew months back.
My thinking is that there's alot more bi males out there but they don't want to compromise thier lumberjack/pirate/footballer male type image , if you get what I mean.

---

I suspect you're completely right! ;)

BTW, does anyone but me think Dana Shaw's photo is HOT! :bigrin:

Love your article. I grew up in a family where I learned sex is a good thing. No matter how u do it or who it is with. I wish everyone felt that way. The world would be a much better place.

wow, she's pretty much hit on the head and summed up my world and that of many of my playmates... :bibounce:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpaZZ

*******************************
It makes me wonder why women don't have similar vestiges. There must be great suffering. When you factor in these types of establishments and the internet, chatlines and parks, you have a buffer on the perceived amount of gay or bisexual men. Likely, for women too. I have an idea. Call me!
SpaZZ

---

Feel free to share your idea here, SpaZZ, and nice to hear from you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhuth

My own version of chicken vs. egg...
I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". <snip> So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

---

Some people figure out sexual identity before finding these groups, and some find the groups and discover sexual identity after. There's no 'right' way, but there is definitely a seeming connection between the two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

There are bath houses for women but they're in San Francisco, Canada, and probably in europe and Asia too.

---

You refer to Canada, but the country is pretty darned big. More specifically, there are bathhouses 1-4 times per year in Toronto and more rarely in other cities like Halifax in Nova Scotia on the east coast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

As far as I've been told by lesbian/bi women that go to such places is that they're not like men's bath houses.

---

They are most certainly not like men's bathhouses. Queer women's community tends to be smaller, so anonymity is much, much harder to come by. Safer sex practices are encouraged, though nobody is policing it and while supplies are provided, they're not always used and some folks bring their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

---

Many people attending women's bathhouses go in groups, but they're encouraged to wander around on their own if they want to hook up with someone because it's hard to work up courage to approach someone who appears to be in a group or couple. But even though people meet up for supper ahead of time or go to breakfast in groups after, the community portion is minimal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

As far as parks and adult bookstores, avoid those places they're full of disease, dodgy/sketchy characters, closeted married men, and sometimes they can be raided by undercover cops.

---

In 2001 the Pussy Palace (Toronto) was raided. After a lengthy legal battle of several years, the case was won in the civil courts (they were charged on liquor license violations, which is standard practise for cops to lay charges on something they don't like. It was also won in the Human Rights Tribunal, where as a result, the cops are now required to be educated in queer rights. While it took lots of time and money (and anxiety), it turned out for the better that the women's bathhouse got raided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiamondDog

The way I see it is that you only get one life, so why live a complete lie and pretend that you're heterosexual?

---

I wouldn't disagree about that at all. I'd only say that people have a right to choose their level of engagement, involvement, etc. For some, sex isn't worth changing anything else in their lives. Not my values, but c'est la vie.