Might separatism actually swell our ranks?

I've been attending bi group meetings in NYC for 3 months now, and am very disappointed in the sparse attendance. It's more or less the same cast of characters over and over. I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings. As there is no other rallying point for bi community in this, the largest city in the USA, this means the overwhelming majority of bi people in NYC can not be bothered to form community.

Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived. Sometimes the opinion is floated that we should meet in a place of our own, but the idea gets a pessimistic reception; we are too small and disorganized to attempt such a venture.

The LGBT parade is coming up and I am glumly pondering whether attending it really serves the cause of bi-visibility or if in the public's minds we just disappear under the queer umbrella. Last night I discussed this with a bi friend who has no interest in attending because he feels no affinity with gay and lesbians. I tried to argue that bi attendance of the parade means bi visibility, and found that I wasn't really sure I believed what I was saying.

I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.) Could it be that if we who want bi community shunned the LGBT umbrella and started our own places to meet, that actually hundreds or thousands of bi people would come out of the woodwork, and we would finally have a real community? Is our fear of failure nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Thanks for posting this - I hope this may help get the ball rolling in NYC.

Toronto has a wonderfully organized bi community.

http://www.torontobinet.org/

Thing is, here, the LBGT community is all one. gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered all live and get along in one great village.

I wouldn't want to attend any group that is based on a single characteristic of myself. I wouldn't attend a group advertised for white people, why would I attend one for bi people?

Why do you feel as though the GLBT "community" as it's called is rampantly biphobic or that gay men can be biphobic to the extreme?

This has not been my experience even when I've lived in various cities besides SF.

The big secret that Gay Inc. and most politically active GLBT types-even gay men, don't want to accept is that most GLBT people are your normal average citizens who don't want to get involved in politics, lame Pride parades, discussion groups, or back whichever candidate Gay Inc. or the Gay Party says is best to vote for even if they've been shown not to be for GLBT rights or same gender marriage. I'm talking about Obama.

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Originally Posted by slipnslide

I wouldn't want to attend any group that is based on a single characteristic of myself. I wouldn't attend a group advertised for white people, why would I attend one for bi people?

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To meet other bi people.
To find support, and support others (hey, maybe you're content with your existence; plenty of us are miserable. Suicide is disproportionately high amongst us vs. the general population.)
To find mates, or friends you can connect with friends seeking mates.
To encourage the closeted to come out and live fuller lives.
To build a political base to bring our society towards true sexual liberation.

If you are so disinterested in bi community, why do you come to this site and post?

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Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering

If you are so disinterested in bi community, why do you come to this site and post?

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It's like a car wreck, I can't look away.

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Originally Posted by mikey3000

Toronto has a wonderfully organized bi community.

http://www.torontobinet.org/

Thing is, here, the LBGT community is all one. gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered all live and get along in one great village.

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I've never been to Toronto, so I'll have to take your word for it. But I've met bi people here who have the same perception of the scene here, and all I can do is shake my head and repeat "there sure are a whole lot of different realities out there." Have none of you ever heard any of the following?

"You're just confused."
"You're going to have to make up your mind of these days."
"You're just halfway out of the closet."
"Oh you're so lucky, you can have twice as many dates."
"You don't know what oppression is; you have straight privilege."
"Hey, if you like pussy, get out of this bar/ center/ web site."

Anyway, even if what you say about Toronto is totally true, it still doesn't answer my question: how many MORE bis would come out and seek community if it didn't mean associating with gays and lesbians?

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Originally Posted by drugstore cowboy

Why do you feel as though the GLBT "community" as it's called is rampantly biphobic or that gay men can be biphobic to the extreme?

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Personal experience (echoed by other bis I've commiserated with). See my answer to Mikey.

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Originally Posted by drugstore cowboy

This has not been my experience even when I've lived in various cities besides SF.

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Maybe you've kept a safe difference, and I should stop sleeping with the enemy.

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Originally Posted by drugstore cowboy

The big secret that Gay Inc. and most politically active GLBT types-even gay men, don't want to accept is that most GLBT people are your normal average citizens who don't want to get involved in politics, lame Pride parades, discussion groups, or back whichever candidate Gay Inc. or the Gay Party says is best to vote for even if they've been shown not to be for GLBT rights or same gender marriage. I'm talking about Obama.

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I'm sure you're right, but nonetheless it is political action that has won the degree of acceptance and recognition gays and lesbians now enjoy in our society. Before Stonewall, you could get arrested for seeking same-gender sex. Now, you can get arrested for calling someone a faggot in public. This is serious progress. They've done well. So far we have done nothing but huddle under their umbrella, and for that tactic we have won no respect and only token recognition. I think we must strike out on our own if we are to better our condition and make our society more enlightened.

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Originally Posted by slipnslide

It's like a car wreck, I can't look away.

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LOL.

But dear, allow me to point out that you are IN this car wreck.

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Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering

Personal experience (echoed by other bis I've commiserated with). See my answer to Mikey.

Maybe you've kept a safe difference, and I should stop sleeping with the enemy.

I'm sure you're right, but nonetheless it is political action that has won the degree of acceptance and recognition gays and lesbians now enjoy in our society. Before Stonewall, you could get arrested for seeking same-gender sex. Now, you can get arrested for calling someone a faggot in public. This is serious progress. They've done well. So far we have done nothing but huddle under their umbrella, and for that tactic we have won no respect and only token recognition. I think we must strike out on our own if we are to better our condition and make our society more enlightened.

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I haven't kept a safe distance. Most gay men who I've met are not biphobic but I have met some rare ones who are but they're just assholes and douchebags so I ignore them and I don't care what they believe since I know myself better than they do. A lot of times they seem to have a preconceived notion about what bisexuality is and then they're surprised when you don't fall into their definition of it, or they think that if you have sex with men and fall in love with men that you have to be a gay man.

I've also met some gay men and even lesbians who have the decades old viewpoint that if you're a bisexual man or woman that you're somehow going to give HIV to them or to someone else. These people are living in the mid/late 80s and still believe false propaganda from the CDC back when HIV/AIDS was seen as a disease that only effects bisexual and gay men but you still have lots of ignorant people who do believe that HIV and AIDS are only things that bisexual and gay men have to worry about. :rolleyes:

I don't however like how certain people in the Gay "media" like Dan Savage, Michael Musto, and Andrew Sullivan are very biphobic and write essays where they say that bisexuals don't exist. These people are media whores, hypocrites, and not for GLBT equality or sexual freedom at all. A lot of my gay male friends even find these guys annoying and ignore them. Dan Savage is very hypocritical in that he tells GLBT teens/youth that "It gets better" but then he's made a living trashing bisexual and trans adults in his silly "advice" column and podcasts.

Most gay men who I've met are fine with bisexuality and think it's a good thing. The ones who don't are usually whiny victim types who claim that everything is "homophobic" yet are very vocal to criticize heterosexuals, bisexuals, and people who are not gay men. Or they think that by making an "It gets better" youtube video and donating money to the HRC that they're actually doing something.

I wouldn't say that bisexuals have done nothing but hide under the GLBT umbrella but I do think that it would be better if more bisexuals were visible and out.

Yes I do think that for some things separatism actually does work but then you'd have gay men and lesbians claiming that we're being "homophobic" because it's about bisexuals only and not the G&L. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering

I've never been to Toronto, so I'll have to take your word for it. But I've met bi people here who have the same perception of the scene here, and all I can do is shake my head and repeat "there sure are a whole lot of different realities out there." Have none of you ever heard any of the following?

"You're just confused."
"You're going to have to make up your mind of these days."
"You're just halfway out of the closet."
"Oh you're so lucky, you can have twice as many dates."
"You don't know what oppression is; you have straight privilege."
"Hey, if you like pussy, get out of this bar/ center/ web site."

Anyway, even if what you say about Toronto is totally true, it still doesn't answer my question: how many MORE bis would come out and seek community if it didn't mean associating with gays and lesbians?

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In the lesbian community there isnt such rejection of bi identities, however most bi identified women don't seek out support for a number of reasons. In my case there wasn't any resources at the bi support group that I couldn't get at a lesbian support group. Plus the distance to any type of queer support center for me is just not do-able at the moment.

I find Mikey's statement about Toronto 519 in the gay ghetto interesting but I can not agree with his premise. I suspect that 519 gets funding from a variety of sources from municipal, provincial and federal grants. It has been quite sometime since I attended a meeting at 519 and I can not even remember what it was about. I couldn't really relate to what was being discussed but found it slightly interesting. Not interesting enough to go back. Like Diva, I am a distance away but I could get in if I really wanted to. I'd be spending twice the amount of time travelling as being in a meeting. Maybe, another type of gathering would work better and seem worthwhile.

I checked the site that Mikey gave. I will have to check it more carefully.

I suspect that bisexuals are just too diverse to gather and get grants etc. to provide programmes for themselves on their own. Better research may need to be done to find out what we want or need. Apathy. I rarely would go into the village these days. It can be curiously amusing to people watch but it just isn't for me. It seems fake and pretentious.

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Originally Posted by Diva667

In the lesbian community there isnt such rejection of bi identities, however most bi identified women don't seek out support for a number of reasons. In my case there wasn't any resources at the bi support group that I couldn't get at a lesbian support group. Plus the distance to any type of queer support center for me is just not do-able at the moment.

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That is not true. I have met lots of lesbians who are VERY biphobic and make no secret about it.

I also have bisexual female friends who have told me how they've met a lot of lesbian women who are very biphobic to them unless they want to sleep with them.

A bisexual friend of mine went to a GLBT center when she was first coming out and accepting herself. She was told by the lesbians and gay men there, "Come back when you've accepted that you're really lesbian. Otherwise this place is not for you."

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Originally Posted by mikey3000

Thing is, here, the LBGT community is all one. gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered all live and get along in one great village.

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That's not true either. It may work in theory but not so much in reality.

I've met gay Canadian men from Toronto who were very vocal about how they were NOT happy with the fact that their ghetto the village now has bisexuals, trans people, and even lesbians in it.

Some of these gay Canadian men were biphobic and wanted the pipe dream of gay male separatism which has never ever existed and never will.

I've been attending bi group meetings in NYC for 3 months now, and am very disappointed in the sparse attendance.

Does this disappointment cause you emotional or bodily pain?

It's more or less the same cast of characters over and over.

Yes, life is inclined to complacency to a degree. That is a natural
happening, accept or alter it.

I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings.

If you do not know how many there are, then one imagines you do not
know each respectively. How may you judge 'they aren't bothered'? Have
you polled, asked?

As there is no other rallying point for bi community in this, the largest city in the USA, this means the overwhelming majority of bi people in NYC can not be bothered to form community.

See above.

Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived.

I do not know if you needed mentioning it but apparently you felt
conviction, perhaps even righteous indignation compelling you to do
so. I will also query, what is in a label? Does it matter what places
are called where kindred meet?

Sometimes the opinion is floated that we should meet in a place of our own, but the idea gets a pessimistic reception; we are too small and disorganized to attempt such a venture.

I can understand disorganization. It seems to vie at dominating many
lives, inclusively. A spark creates an inferno. A gentle stream levels
mountains. Each must begin somewhere, sometime. Borrowing from
Socrates and a few others far wiser; "be the change you wish in the
world." You are wasting too much time bitching.

The LGBT parade is coming up and I am glumly pondering whether attending it really serves the cause of bi-visibility or if in the public's minds we just disappear under the queer umbrella.

We all vanish in some way, some where from time to time. Again, it's
part of the natural cycle of living.

Last night I discussed this with a bi friend who has no interest in attending because he feels no affinity with gay and lesbians.

And this bothers you? Frankly, it is your friend's choice and not
yours. It will be their consequences, not yours.

I tried to argue that bi attendance of the parade means bi visibility, and found that I wasn't really sure I believed what I was saying.

Even if you did believe it, likely you'd not win the argument. That
would be due to the 'backfire' theory. You'd be challenging the
opinions of someone else. Everyone knows, you can not argue opinions.

I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.)

Why wonder? No, seriously, why don't you just regurgitate a biased
media's opinion all over a public forum of bisexuals? Go on, spread
more hate and fear mongering, please do, I love it! Dude, come on out
and play. Forget the adults and their boring Aristotle inspired lives
and ideas. Who needs the politics circus?

Could it be that if we who want bi community shunned the LGBT umbrella and started our own places to meet, that actually hundreds or thousands of bi people would come out of the woodwork, and we would finally have a real community?

Maybe.

Is our fear of failure nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Maybe. Again, thanks for spreading more fear. I had thought you more intelligent.

Please note, I'm not attacking you but fear. I see I've not missed much in
my absence. Sad.

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Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering

Now, you can get arrested for calling someone a faggot in public. This is serious progress. They've done well.

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So reducing freedom of speech, even from morons, is a progress ?!!

Ignoring stupid people would be more efficient, and discussing with the least stupid would be a better step forward. Education is the key. And I don't mean propaganda ! Unlike education and discussion, a law never made anyone smarter !

Anyway, I'm closeted, but if I was known as bi, I'd rather know who my "enemies" are by ignoring loud morons rather than having them silent thinking 10x worse.

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Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering

I think we must strike out on our own if we are to better our condition and make our society more enlightened.

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Why do you so need an organisation for everything ?! Aren't there enough lobbies all over the place (USA or Europe) ? Each of them is fighting for its own interests, dividing everyone instead of uniting people.
Why can't people just discuss this with other people on their own and just see the mentalities change instead of having another organisation who will strike/fight/protest or any other agressive action ?

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

Maybe. Again, thanks for spreading more fear. I had thought you more intelligent.

Please note, I'm not attacking you but fear. I see I've not missed much in
my absence. Sad.

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What NotLost and other bisexuals on this site such as myself have been writing about gay men and lesbians being biphobic IS TRUE.

It's not based on fear it's based on the hypocrisy of some gay men and lesbians who claim that they're all about equality and GLBT pride but are not at all.

If you need more proof just google "Dan Savage, biphobic" and read what comes up as quotes from him.

Or look up the study by Dr. J. Michael Bailey who claimed that by using porn and a small number of gay men, he could prove that bisexual men don't exist, and people both Lesbians, gay men, and Heterosexuals actually believed this junk science.

There's also an essay from Drama queen Michael Musto where he writes about how he believes that bisexual men don't exist.

If you need visual proof watch the bisexual documentary called "Bi the way" where both Dan Savage and Musto say on camera how they don't believe in bisexuals or how bisexual men don't exist, and Savage is a bigot and doesn't understand bisexuality and thinks that most of us are some variation of heterosexual which in his mind means he can discriminate since a lot of gay men do not like heterosexuals at all.

Here's a blog from a very biphobic gay man, you can contact him at the top of the page.

http://www.teddypig.com/2010/06/bise...-identity-sex/

Bigots like the author above want to totally rewrite GLBT history and erase the accomplishments of bisexual men and women from it and claim that we were never there alongside gay men and lesbians fighting for GLBT rights when we were there all along.

If you're too lazy to read the blog and all of the comments there here's a sample.

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Originally Posted by Teddy Pig

This is exactly why the people who actually were at the Stonewall Riots started organizing immediately to get people to stop with the “bisexual crap”. They needed support of a bunch of people who were willing to take a life threatening risk and “come out of the closet” and stop swearing they were “bisexual” and admit they were gay.

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Originally Posted by BiDaveDtown

That's not true either. It may work in theory but not so much in reality.

I've met gay Canadian men from Toronto who were very vocal about how they were NOT happy with the fact that their ghetto the village now has bisexuals, trans people, and even lesbians in it.

Some of these gay Canadian men were biphobic and wanted the pipe dream of gay male separatism which has never ever existed and never will.

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Dude, are you really trying to tell me about the gay scene in my own city? You're 2000 miles away and have never set foot here.

Yeah, there are always gonna be some bitter queens who are not happy much about anything, but you can't opine a whole community from a select few. I have been frequenting the village here a few times a week for years now and I have never encountered any sort of biphobia at all. I've had a few try to convert me entirely, but they were unsuccessful. Once they meet my wife, they adore her. a few months back, I've even had one gay guy offer me his male partner if he could have a crack at my wif!! LOL!, She didn't bite.

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Originally Posted by mikey3000

Dude, are you really trying to tell me about the gay scene in my own city? You're 2000 miles away and have never set foot here.

Yeah, there are always gonna be some bitter queens who are not happy much about anything, but you can't opine a whole community from a select few. I have been frequenting the village here a few times a week for years now and I have never encountered any sort of biphobia at all. I've had a few try to convert me entirely, but they were unsuccessful. Once they meet my wife, they adore her. a few months back, I've even had one gay guy offer me his male partner if he could have a crack at my wif!! LOL!, She didn't bite.

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Agree (1)

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Originally Posted by BiDaveDtown

Bigots like the author above want to totally rewrite GLBT history and erase the accomplishments of bisexual men and women from it and claim that we were never there alongside gay men and lesbians fighting for GLBT rights when we were there all along.

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An Interesting thing to note, one of the major influences in music and popular culture in the last 40 years, David Bowie, is Bisexual and his popularity and stance on sexuality encouraged many young gay and Bisexual people to stand up for themselves. His influence also helped the mainstream come to accept the gay community. Today, we have Lady GaGa, a bisexual, speaking out in support of the gay community and giving young people the courage to be who they are.

Just two examples from popular culture of Bisexuals giving aid to the gay community. Yet, many of the loudest voices in the gay community still try to shout us down and say we don't exist.

I have posted on many other threads my theories as to why so many in the gay community do not like us. Suffice to say, yes, I feel no affinity for the "pride" parade. And to clarify my position on attending, I feel that it doesn't necessarily give visibility to the Bi contingent. Rather, it keeps us trapped under the "rainbow" of a movement that doesn't really like us or treat us with respect. Fear has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by mikey3000

Dude, are you really trying to tell me about the gay scene in my own city? You're 2000 miles away and have never set foot here.

Yeah, there are always gonna be some bitter queens who are not happy much about anything, but you can't opine a whole community from a select few. I have been frequenting the village here a few times a week for years now and I have never encountered any sort of biphobia at all. I've had a few try to convert me entirely, but they were unsuccessful. Once they meet my wife, they adore her. a few months back, I've even had one gay guy offer me his male partner if he could have a crack at my wif!! LOL!, She didn't bite.

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Actually yes I have been to Toronto and other cities in other parts of Canada, and I've been to the village. I found it rather boring and a total tourist trap.

Even gay Canadian men can be highly biphobic as well even if they do live in a gay ghetto like the village.

Interesting post, Atiq. The answer in my opinion is yes, but with a qualifier. When the bisexual community quits counting people as bisexual simply because they don't live their life the way others think they should then there will be more bisexuals to count in your fold.

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Interesting post, Atiq. The answer in my opinion is yes, but with a qualifier. When the bisexual community quits counting people as bisexual simply because they don't live their life the way others think they should then there will be more bisexuals to count in your fold.

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You're not even bisexual at all so your opinion on what we bisexuals should do or what the bisexual community should do are all a moot point.

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Originally Posted by BiDaveDtown

You're not even bisexual at all so your opinion on what we bisexuals should do or what the bisexual community should do are all a moot point.

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No, your opinion is your opinion, my opinion is my opinion. I have the right to share my opinion, you have the right to share your opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that I actually have had bisexual friends my entire life, I have had gay and lesbian friends as well. I have a bisexual partner, I have an interest in things that affect the LGBT because of my friends and my partner but more because I'm a member of a very large group called HUMANS. You remember them......

"What NotLost and other bisexuals on this site such as myself have been writing about gay men and lesbians being biphobic IS TRUE.

It's not based on fear it's based on the hypocrisy of some gay men and lesbians who claim that they're all about equality and GLBT pride but are not at all."

Not denying any truth here, nor was that intended in my retort.

Ultimately I do see it based on fear. I comprehend what is written.

The question was posed does separatism dwell with us?

Of course it does, always has, probably always will. Everyone has freedom of choice though. It is your choice to be afraid of the hate of others. This in turn causes you to hate them right back.

What I am saying is this ...

Fuck the fear!

It needs to stop at some point and we each respectively must choose to not fear. Courage is not the absence of fear but a knowledge that something more important than fear exists. In this case that something is life, love, laughter, happiness. We can only be free if we choose but freedom is a package deal bundled with responsibility.

And no, I am not advocating that all bisexual people clamor to rooftops with bull horns announcing themselves. In fact, I choose to act straight in public. I do so to respect others, tradition, myself. Not everyone really must know I'm bisexual. Frankly, not really anyone else's business save for my lovers.

There again choice plays a role. I can have intercourse and love either gender. It is all the more special that you are chosen to be bedded by me. I'm very selective, ignoring loud mouthed asinine jerks who equate to imbeciles at best.

Getting so, I tend to ignore the victims of fear also. They continue the vicious cycle which destroys not merely one class of people, but us all. By all means, yes we must educate. But we also must not give fear a toehold, set an example. We are the stream crumbling the mountain of tradition and rite.

Barring that, we have and do thrive in the shades of invisibility. Doubt that will change much, soon. I hope it does but I'm realistic. Is it too much to ask that we drop the 'us' vs 'them' mentality? There is after all just us, one people. If we release hold on that idea, set it aside, we can aspire to new heights. But fear needs set aside.

Atiq,

If you want to respond further, I welcome it. Hopefully, this now will aid clarifying my position. I did not misunderstand your posting. Often when I address posts, I do break them into contextual chunks and focus on each bit respectively. There is a valid rationale in such methodology. It keeps everything a bit more congruent for me and others. I often do bring to fore everything and nothing in discussions.

Yes, I do have some mental issues. One is depression, another is hinted at PTSD from various events. My attention span is not as focused as it was years ago. I blame the media with good reason, yet if I point a finger, three point back. Besides media, I too have enjoyed some pleasurable medicines. Nice to lose yourself at times. Again though, personal responsibility enters the fray.

Right now, I am at a good place. I have finally started fitting in the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that creates me. I am focused. Did not think what I had posted was too far into left field. Oh well, that teaches me to think. At any given, should you feel compelled to respond, c'mon in.

I may or not reply later. Getting far too verbose for this poet at heart.

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Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering

I've been attending bi group meetings in NYC for 3 months now, and am very disappointed in the sparse attendance. It's more or less the same cast of characters over and over. I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings. As there is no other rallying point for bi community in this, the largest city in the USA, this means the overwhelming majority of bi people in NYC can not be bothered to form community.

Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived. Sometimes the opinion is floated that we should meet in a place of our own, but the idea gets a pessimistic reception; we are too small and disorganized to attempt such a venture.

The LGBT parade is coming up and I am glumly pondering whether attending it really serves the cause of bi-visibility or if in the public's minds we just disappear under the queer umbrella. Last night I discussed this with a bi friend who has no interest in attending because he feels no affinity with gay and lesbians. I tried to argue that bi attendance of the parade means bi visibility, and found that I wasn't really sure I believed what I was saying.

I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.) Could it be that if we who want bi community shunned the LGBT umbrella and started our own places to meet, that actually hundreds or thousands of bi people would come out of the woodwork, and we would finally have a real community? Is our fear of failure nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy?

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its something I have questioned myself..... how it is making us more visible when most of the time we go back to our lives and out of the public eye.....

personally i just can not see the point in getting involved in the politics of LGBT and who fits what criteria, ... as we just become like a pack of hungry dogs that turn on themselves.......

if we want to be more visible, we would need a more visible interaction with the community beyond a parade..... we would need a regular and ongoing presence in society beyond our bars and groups.......

a LGBT cafe etc in the center of town would make more of a ongoing impression than a march once a year

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

its something I have questioned myself..... how it is making us more visible when most of the time we go back to our lives and out of the public eye.....

personally i just can not see the point in getting involved in the politics of LGBT and who fits what criteria, ... as we just become like a pack of hungry dogs that turn on themselves.......

if we want to be more visible, we would need a more visible interaction with the community beyond a parade..... we would need a regular and ongoing presence in society beyond our bars and groups.......

a LGBT cafe etc in the center of town would make more of a ongoing impression than a march once a year

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I've seen posts where you wrote how you don't like GLBT Pride parades or what gets called the GLBT "community" in general, or at least what's considered to be a GLBT "community" in your country.

Most cities and even small towns already have GLBT cafes, they're just a gathering place or a meeting place like GLBT bars and dance clubs are except they serve coffee and tea and not booze.

A car dealership ran by homosexual men, complete with a shop, would be pretty sharp too. Or maybe lesbian ran bike shop, bisexual ran chain of postal shops.

The point being to do the doable and do it well. Don't let it become 'about' sexuality but rather doing the work, living. Show people no fear. Provide a value while doing it and it sweetens the bottom line message.

We are who and what we are, will not change. We do not fear you nor should you fear us. We are one.

And it has worked in the past. Jews, blacks, even those jerks I mentioned, all 'integrate' in such a way and it works out fine. It doesn't matter who or what you are, much, because at the core you're a human being the same as anyone.

( I say much because we do have psychotics and sociopaths. Have personal and private views on them, not worth discussion here. Figure everyone does. Leave it at that. )

Yes, I know human beings are animals prone to fear. A bit of fear is alright, too. But we have to not let it paralyze us and create the hate it does. Setting it aside makes sense in order to live.

I know some lesbians and have met gay guys who are militantly dubious about bisexuals and tell us we are not. Most of the ones I know and have met aren't like that but accept we arent quite the same as them.

The most doggedly lesbian woman I know is married to a bisexual woman, and the nicest is married to me. Both accept we are not lesbians. It takes all kinds but why do we care whether people accept us for what we are or not? We should care because we have a right to be accepted as what we are. We care because there is still prejudice to be fought and eliminated.

Whether we fight prejudice by remaining under the LGBT umbrella is something all bisexual people will decide for themselves but I think that divide and rule can only weaken us and make our fight to be ourselves all the harder. It is also likely to make gay and lesbian people all the more suspicious of us and reinforce the prejudices many hold.

In my personal life I am actually quite anonymous. I don't go around shouting that I am a bisexual woman to the world, but when out with lesbian or bisexual friends or my partner it is obvious I am not straight, and the way I flirt talk and dance with men and talk about them makes it obvious I am not a lesbian. I live my life and am only militantly bisexual if the need or occasion arises.

I am me. I care about me and how I am perceived, but if problems exist in the minds of other people, I care about that perception and it can be a problem to me but it is more their problem than mine.

Thanks Mikey for posting about the Toronto bi network. I've been reading the website. As I wrote above there are a few logistic matters that may make it difficult but I'm going to try (again?).

I read the posted history of the bisexual movement. From what I read, I found it interesting that biwomen seem to have been the organizers and that there have been various attempts to increase the structure but it has remained a TO thing. Lesbians welcomed the biwomen organization to some major events in their own history and that was interesting. It seems to have been done to acknowledge bisexuals...but this was all done by women for supporting women...no guys in the historical structure. Its like bimen just hung back politically in the TO binetwork history. I find it interesting that biwomen meet one night a month. Biguys meet one night a month and then there is a meeting of both men and women. That in itself is intriguing as to why they believe in these joint and separate meetings. There must be needs why this is done. The village may be seen as a tourist place for those interested in "looking" at the GLBT people. People watching is a main event I suspect...lol

It makes me wonder why people would want to attend such meetings. Some have posted here that it is to increase the public awareness and that is a political action. Yet, the Toronto group meets three times a month broken down to gender and so there must be needs beyond the political.

I also found it interesting in the Toronto bi history that there were major ebbs and flows in the attendance of these meetings. The history points out that at times very few bisexual women showed and one point no one. The biwomen's group folded in to what it became today and I'm guessing but it looks like to include bimen into the group. So, there must have been other factors. Still the website part of the network's history tells of the difficulty in keeping such an organization surviving. They don't always meet in the "gay 519 building". The biwomen meet and the joint meeting with men and women meets in the "gay 519 centre" but the bimen meet elsewhere when they meet separately. I'm guessing that is intentional (and I think that I might like that) but there may be other reasons.

As far as gay men reacting to bisexuals, I don't think that most care one way or other in the village itself. I mean how would a biguy behave in the gay village? Would he stand out? I think that any discrimination probably would take place politically and subtly within the power structure of places like 519. I don't go to the village very often and don't recall any gay man showing bigotry towards bisexuals but I have read the words of gay bigots on websites.