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Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Action
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A great brouhaha is stirring in the nation's conservative publications over comments Dan Savage made two weeks ago while addressing the JEA/NSPA National High School Journalism Convention. The convention was entitled "Journalism On The Edge," which you'd think would prep participants for a certain amount of edginess in the presentations. Alas, the audience was not prepared for edginess. Savage's subject was to be bullying, and he got right to the point:
The Bible. We’ll just talk about the Bible for a second. People often point out that they can’t help it — they can’t help with the anti-gay bullying, because it says right there in Leviticus, it says right there in Timothy, it says right there in Romans, that being gay is wrong.
We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay people. The same way, the same way we have learned to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation. We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things. - Source:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...sy-bible-right
I don't generally pay much attention to Savage, as he has this anti-bisexual streak to him. However, I do agree with him here but he doesn't take it far enough. It's not the bible per se that's the problem, it's those people who decide to believe what it says, literally...as in God made the world in seven, forty hour human days...even before human existed.
The students who walked out of this, wanted to be offended and attending a Dan Savage talk gave them an opportunity for it. Considering the talk was entitled "Journalism On The Edge", what the hell did they expect?
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Right on passionate response, Cowboy! Fuck the rabble-rousing hypocrites.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
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Originally Posted by
drugstore cowboy
Dan Savage is not any sort of expert on LGBT issues, politics, bullying, journalism/writing, public speaking, religion/spirituality, or human sexuality. A lot of LGBT people see Dan who is highly biphobic, transphobic, misogynistic, and racist, .....{snipped for brevity}
While I was looking more at the reaction to Savages speech, I cannot disagree with anything you wrote about him.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Dan Savage is an all around wanker and arsehole. Insulting your audience and calling them names, and being a bully who throws a temper tantrum at people who you're speaking to and pretending to be an advocate for is the last thing you want to do if you're giving a speech or if you're being filmed like he was. I do agree that by doing this he's just making all LGBT people look bad and as though we're all against religion/spiritualities, and there are a lot of Christians and people who are religious/spiritual who aren't fundamentalist. I think there's some irony in the fact that Dan Savage has a whole chorus of wealthy, self-absorbed, and even closeted celebrities making "It Gets Better" videos for him and allowing them an opportunity to pretend they've saved a life of an LGBT youth... But at the same time, he too easily resorts to cyber-bullying tactics against a politician he doesn't like, and now does this towards his audience of teenagers. Now, it's true that nobody likes Rick Santorum... least of all me. But I actually find Dan Savage's hypocrisy in action to be a harder pill to swallow here. Are these tactics of humiliation, bullying, and public mockery OK for SOME people, just not LGBT people? Or are they OK and excusable for Dan Savage? Is that the message? Because if it is, I want no part of it.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
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Originally Posted by
æonpax
I don't generally pay much attention to Savage, as he has this anti-bisexual streak to him. However, I do agree with him here but he doesn't take it far enough. It's not the bible per se that's the problem, it's those people who decide to believe what it says, literally...as in God made the world in seven, forty hour human days...even before human existed.
The students who walked out of this, wanted to be offended and attending a Dan Savage talk gave them an opportunity for it. Considering the talk was entitled "Journalism On The Edge", what the hell did they expect?
I read the entire story, read more, viewed more. Aeon; you're an intellignet woman and learned, but I refuse to believe that you stand by your words here.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
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Originally Posted by
drugstore cowboy
Dan Savage is not any sort of expert on LGBT issues, politics, bullying, journalism/writing, public speaking, religion/spirituality, or human sexuality. A lot of LGBT people see Dan who is highly biphobic, transphobic, misogynistic, and racist, as being a total hypocrite, bully, media whore, and no better than the Bachmanns, Rick Santorum, and Rev. Phelps and his klan. By doing this he’s basically giving fodder to anti-LGBT people and anti-LGBT conservatives/Christians, and doing what he does best which is run his mouth, be a media whore, and talk out of his ass. Dan Savage never has and never will represent me, any more than Al Sharpton represents all blacks. Why anyone pays attention to this shock-crock is way beyond me. His hypocritical attitude of “I can offend you and I'm always right yet unwilling to learn, grow, or change my opinion; but you can’t offend me, so nya” has grown old, childish, and annoying. Savage has also made MANY r cist remarks over the years which also slap LGBT non-white people across the face. He is not fighting for gay equality, he’s fighting to increase the size of his own wallet, and wants a wealthy white only following. He’s the biggest hypocrite I've ever seen. If he wasn't born a gay man and he was born straight he would have been an evangelical born again Christian and still selling his snake oil. I can’t fathom how someone who’s so blatant in hating and degrading others has become a celebrity but once people go back and read the MANY sick comments he’s made about other groups(including non-white LGBT people, bisexuals, trans people, and women) they’ll kick his pansy ass to the curb.
Whoa! Simmer down here. You just smacked just about everyone, save yourself in the mouth. Personally, until a few weeks ago, I've never heard of this asshole. This is not about self promotion for value on a contract; this is just pure inate hatred of himself. I don't wanna hear the mosh pit shit he puts out about his upbringing, he is just a fucking asshole. Fact of the matter is, those of you who know of him, prior......you paid his salary and his slide into pure racist bigotry. Some fucking tool is funding him. Not me.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
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Originally Posted by
nutme
I read the entire story, read more, viewed more. Aeon; you're an intellignet woman and learned, but I refuse to believe that you stand by your words here.
Let me put it this way, I stand by my opinion of the news article which was not really focused on Dan Savage as much as the right-wing reaction to what he said. Savage is a self-indulgent moron as are many pundits now a days. Some I dislike more than others such as Limbaugh as I can trace the harm that puke is ultimately responsible for. Savage? Not so much. I just don’t get worked up in regards to anything he says. However, in this case, he was spot-on in regards to the biblical “BS”, as he called it.
If Savage erred here it was because he took a rather one sided view of the book. Given that there are at least 100 different versions and translations of the bible, and at least 100 different Christian sects that interpret the bible differently, I think it’s disingenuous to group them all in one generic category. I see the bible as a good book, both historic and inspirational. BUT, I do not take it literally as many Christians seem to believe it should be taken.
The operational phrase here is called, “Sola scriptura” ("by scripture alone") which is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. It is from this where people use biblical quotations to rationalize their actions and beliefs. If you watched the video on the link, you can see him attack the hypocrisy of such beliefs as in slavery, sexuality and anti-gay prejudice. To this extent, he is correct but he also omits some key things and does not clearly delineate that the problem is not the book itself but those who use the Bible to righteously justify their dysfunctional prejudices.
This article attracted me not because of Dan Savage but as an ex-journalist student, the topic of the schools convention was “Journalism On The Edge” intrigued me. Say what you want about him but Savage is about as edgy as you can get. I was also curious as to the rights reaction to his speech. For example, Faux news reported this as; “Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens”…yeah, right.
Dan Savage is hardly a spokesperson for anyone other than himself and certainly not the LGBT. I don’t think it was a wise move to invite him to this “Journalism Over the Edge/National Scholastic Press Association National High School Journalism Convention” but such is life.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
I think what Savage did was really nasty and unfair. He has done similar in the past as well (to bisexuals no less), but this time he really crossed a line.
First, all this happened to a national audience of high school journalists. I am not sure that it is fair to repeatedly call the bible "bullshit" in front of that audience. Don't get me wrong I am no fan of the bible (and that is putting it mildly), and I wish parents would let their children pick their own religion rather than indoctrinating them into their own, but you have to hold back when it comes to teenagers - they are NOT fair game. Calling their religion "bullshit" is not appropriate - not in front of that audience.
BUT FAR WORSE... he called the teenagers who walked out "pansy-assed". That is bullying - classic bullying in fact. Now he has apologized for that - but it was a bit of a half-assed apology to say the least. I don't think the guy has a lot of credibility left - he has his fans in the "we're here, we're queer, and we're really angry!" crowd which he leads, but beyond that bubble no one should take him seriously, IMO.
The real shame is that he and his supporters have completely undermined the anti-bullying movement. Hopefully the movement keeps going and high schools continue to discuss bullying with their students. The discussion needs to go on - but it would be better without Dan Savage. It can't go on with that hypocrite hanging about.
I've defended Savage when he is right - some of his observations about bisexuality with respect to the closet seem fact-based to me for example. But he is wrong on so many other things (including other aspects of bisexuality), and deserves all the criticism he gets when he is wrong. I think the rest of the world is now understanding what bisexuals have understood for a long time, that Dan Savage is for the most part an ignorant ass.
- Drew :paw:
For reference, the speech - see the bullying at 2:40 to 3:00:
http://youtu.be/ao0k9qDsOvs
ps. I think we will all hear a lot more about this story in the next few days. After simmering for a couple of weeks, it seems to be hitting the mainstream press bigtime in the last couple of days. I think the mainstream press has been holding back because they recognize it will hurt the anti-bullying movement which is a noble cause, but news is news and it needs to be told. I really hope the anti-bullying movement is able to move beyond the behaviour of one of its driving forces.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
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Originally Posted by
Drew
I think what Savage did was really nasty and unfair. He has done similar in the past as well (to bisexuals no less), but this time he really crossed a line.
1 - First, all this happened to a national audience of high school journalists. I am not sure that it is fair to repeatedly call the bible "bullshit" in front of that audience. Don't get me wrong I am no fan of the bible (and that is putting it mildly), and I wish parents would let their children pick their own religion rather than indoctrinating them into their own, but you have to hold back when it comes to teenagers - they are NOT fair game. Calling their religion "bullshit" is not appropriate - not in front of that audience.
2 - BUT FAR WORSE... he called the teenagers who walked out "pansy-assed". That is bullying - classic bullying in fact. Now he has apologized for that - but it was a bit of a half-assed apology to say the least. I don't think the guy has a lot of credibility left - he has his fans in the "we're here, we're queer, and we're really angry!" crowd which he leads, but beyond that bubble no one should take him seriously.
`
1 - While I have no desire to defend Savage here, his use of the "BS" term, while uncouth, boorish and crude, was appropriate and effective, considering the context in which he applied it. I certainly wouldn't use it in formal talks with any audience but Savage is far from the first person to ever use it in reference to the Bible....which I did not see as him calling all religion "BS."
2 - Say what??? Do you really consider the phrase "pansy-assed" as being bullying? Wow. In the US, at least Wisconsin, that term is referred to as "name calling" which is wholly separate from bullying. That term has the same insulting force as calling someone a dweeb, dufus, nerd, panty-waist and your mother wears army boots. At least where I come from, is is not a "hateful", "cruel" or "aggressive" term. You might want to Google what the definition of bullying is, especially in schools.
Post Script - Drew, when was the last time you were in a high school? These kids are more acclimated to the societal problems than you apparently care to believe. If you sincerely believe that teens cannot handle the words "bull shit" and "pansy-assed", you are out of the loop sir. Among themselves, they call each other terms far worse and far more destructive than these two relatively harmless phrases. Admittedly in a polite and academic setting, such terms are inappropriate but hardly rise to the level of being detramental to teens.
Lastly, people, regardless of age, set themselves up to be insulted and to be offended. While I am liberal, I reject the "political correctness" genre as being overly protective in a world that underneath the surface of such fake orthodoxy, can be very cruel and hurtful. The list of people whom now claim to be offended by certain terms is exponentially multiplying until everyone can be offended at something. I can deal with and have taught my children how to deal with words and attitudes they find offense, not by crying the blues about feeling offended but to understand the ignorance and sometimes hatred such actions imply and try to change them if possible.
Dan Savage is a bête noire but in a world full of much more dangerous monsters, he becomes quite an insignificant fool...and I have no time for his antics nor do I pay him any attention.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Bullying did not just start in schools last year. It has been going on for decades and with the internet has crossed over even more so. Name calling has always been a tool for bullying. It doesn't matter if aeonpax thinks that name calling is acceptable or in the loop of being a recent high school graduate. The use of name calling among friends and especially guys is used but it can cross the line. It was inappropriate of Savage to use BS and pansy assed when addressing a group of high school journalists. There is a difference between informal discussion between high school friends and a formal presentation at a conference for high school journalists. A teacher in the classroom should not use Bullshit nor pansy assed in any lesson and neither should Savage.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one æonpax.
re 1. I agree that high school students are very worldly and tough - and by definition some of them are very nearly adults and can handle their religion being called bullshit. But it is still not fair game in my opinion to call their religion bullshit in their space. These are young people whose brains are not yet fully developed - they have fewer rights, and more protections, than adults for good reason. An adult had no business walking into a teen space and using language that the teens themselves are not allowed to use in that space. What would have happened if one of the teenagers present had called Dan Savage a "bullshitter" - presumably they would have been disciplined and rightly so. Teen spaces do not operate under the same rules as the outside world. This is the science of applied child education in practice. Savage had no business treating that time and place like any other time and place - he was at a convention of teenagers. It was not fair game to say what he said to that audience.
re 2. I completely disagree. Of course calling teenagers "pansy-assed" is bullying. Your claim that name-calling is not bullying seems way off to me (are you thinking of "bullying" = "assault"?). And "pansy-assed" (directed at a teen) is not just bullying but a classic nasty example of it. Part of being a teenaged boy/man is coming to grips with one's sexuality and developing an understanding of masculinity. It is a confusing and difficult time. Which is why questioning a (male) teenager's masculinity is such an effective bullying taunt - it specifically tries to exploit that insecurity. This is why you see it so often in (male) teen to teen bullying: "fag", "wimp", "pussy", "homo", "pansy". These are all bullying taunts that the bully hopes will exploit a weakness, masculinity insecurity, in the teenager for the desired harmful effect. I don't think there is any way one can spin calling teenagers "pansy-assed" into anything but what it is, classic bullying. When such a thing comes from an adult, it is especially beyond the pale.
- Drew :paw:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew
I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one æonpax.
re 1. I agree that high school students are very worldly and tough - and by definition some of them are very nearly adults and can handle their religion being called bullshit. But it is still not fair game in my opinion to call their religion bullshit in their space. These are young people whose brains are not yet fully developed - they have fewer rights, and more protections, than adults for good reason. An adult had no business walking into a teen space and using language that the teens themselves are not allowed to use in that space. What would have happened if one of the teenagers present had called Dan Savage a "bullshitter" - presumably they would have been disciplined and rightly so. Teen spaces do not operate under the same rules as the outside world. This is the science of applied child education in practice. Savage had no business treating that time and place like any other time and place - he was at a convention of teenagers. It was not fair game to say what he said to that audience.
re 2. I completely disagree. Of course calling teenagers "pansy-assed" is bullying. Your claim that name-calling is not bullying seems absurd to me (are you thinking of "bullying" = "assault"?). And "pansy-assed" (directed at a teen) is not just bullying but a classic nasty example of it. Part of being a teenaged boy/man is coming to grips with one's sexuality and developing an understanding of masculinity. It is a confusing and difficult time. Which is why questioning a (male) teenager's masculinity is such an effective bullying taunt - it specifically tries to exploit that insecurity. This is why you see it so often in (male) teen to teen bullying: "fag", "wimp", "pussy", "homo", "pansy". These are all bullying taunts that the bully hopes will exploit a weakness, masculinity insecurity, in the teenager for the desired harmful effect. I don't think there is any way one can spin calling teenagers "pansy-assed" into anything but what it is, classic bullying. When such a thing comes from an adult, it is especially beyond the pale.
- Drew :paw:
Calling kids names as Savage did can be and is sometimes bullying but not necessarily.. it is certainly not advisable.. just see the hoohah about it.. but not I think in this instance.. it was certainly contemptuous, arrogant and lacked respect and did nothing for his or the reputation of the lgbt. Even an audience acting badly should still be addressed with respect for to do other we lower ourselves to their level of ignorance. Dan Savage was a name unknown to me until peeps started to rant bout him on .com.. he is a bit of a dick from what little I have seen and know of him.. he is not always wrong and is in fact often right.. even the worst kind of dicks are often right... and my own views about religion and the "good book" are probably more in tune with his than most others on this site.. but there are ways of saying and doing things and upsetting an audience and freaking out the wider world seem to me not the way to make friends an influence people... people like Savage acting in the way he has are doing more harm to the cause of lgbt rights than any good which may come from them..
Swearing and cursing kids at any kind of school or other function where they make up the audience is simply not on.. he was a guest speaker after all and he should have been aware that there would be those who would not like anything he had to say.. he ahould have been prepared for the worst as all public speakers should and had strategies to deal with any unpleasantness... maybe cursing and wswearing was his strategy.. if so it has blown up in his, and as a consequence, our faces... that he should have risen above it is unquestionable and his rant was inexcusable in the context it was made and at the audience he was addressing. Teachers lose their jobs for less.. the bloody fool is meant to be a role model.. in that he failed miserably. God knows I have wanted to curse and swear at kids in class but training, good sense, good manners and recognition that to do so is always counter-productive have always restrained me even when faced with the worst of situations.. we may by so doing quieten kids, but there are always consequences and some of these come back and bite our arse harder than we would like... if I did so the consequence would likely be disciplinary action, suspension from duties and possibly loss of employment.. we are now seeing the consequences of Savage's outburst brought out into the wider world and tbh I have no sympathy whatever... he has done the lgbt no favours...
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew
I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one æonpax.
re 1. I agree that high school students are very worldly and tough - and by definition some of them are very nearly adults and can handle their religion being called bullshit. But it is still not fair game in my opinion to call their religion bullshit in their space. These are young people whose brains are not yet fully developed - they have fewer rights, and more protections, than adults for good reason. An adult had no business walking into a teen space and using language that the teens themselves are not allowed to use in that space. What would have happened if one of the teenagers present had called Dan Savage a "bullshitter" - presumably they would have been disciplined and rightly so. Teen spaces do not operate under the same rules as the outside world. This is the science of applied child education in practice. Savage had no business treating that time and place like any other time and place - he was at a convention of teenagers. It was not fair game to say what he said to that audience.
re 2. I completely disagree. Of course calling teenagers "pansy-assed" is bullying. Your claim that name-calling is not bullying seems absurd to me (are you thinking of "bullying" = "assault"?). And "pansy-assed" (directed at a teen) is not just bullying but a classic nasty example of it. Part of being a teenaged boy/man is coming to grips with one's sexuality and developing an understanding of masculinity. It is a confusing and difficult time. Which is why questioning a (male) teenager's masculinity is such an effective bullying taunt - it specifically tries to exploit that insecurity. This is why you see it so often in (male) teen to teen bullying: "fag", "wimp", "pussy", "homo", "pansy". These are all bullying taunts that the bully hopes will exploit a weakness, masculinity insecurity, in the teenager for the desired harmful effect. I don't think there is any way one can spin calling teenagers "pansy-assed" into anything but what it is, classic bullying. When such a thing comes from an adult, it is especially beyond the pale.
- Drew :paw:
Calling kids names as Savage did can be and is sometimes bullying but not necessarily.. it is certainly not advisable.. just see the hoohah about it.. but not I think in this instance.. it was certainly contemptuous, arrogant and lacked respect and did nothing for his or the reputation of the lgbt. Even an audience acting badly should still be addressed with respect for to do other we lower ourselves to their level of ignorance. Dan Savage was a name unknown to me until peeps started to rant bout him on .com.. he is a bit of a dick from what little I have seen and know of him.. he is not always wrong and is in fact often right.. even the worst kind of dicks are often right... and my own views about religion and the "good book" are probably more in tune with his than most others on this site.. but there are ways of saying and doing things and upsetting an audience and freaking out the wider world seem to me not the way to make friends an influence people... people like Savage acting in the way he has are doing more harm to the cause of lgbt rights than any good which may come from them..
Swearing and cursing kids at any kind of school or other function where they make up the audience is simply not on.. he was a guest speaker after all and he should have been aware that there would be those who would not like anything he had to say.. he ahould have been prepared for the worst as all public speakers should and had strategies to deal with any unpleasantness... maybe cursing and swearing was his strategy.. if so it has blown up in his face, and as a consequence, ours too... that he should have risen above it is unquestionable and his rant was inexcusable in the context it was made and at the audience he was addressing. Teachers lose their jobs for less.. the bloody fool is meant to be a role model.. in that he failed miserably. God knows I have wanted to curse and swear at kids in class but training, good sense, good manners and recognition that to do so is always counter-productive have always restrained me even when faced with the worst of situations.. we may by so doing quieten kids, but there are always consequences and some of these come back and bite our arse harder than we would like... if I did so the consequence would likely be disciplinary action, suspension from duties and possibly loss of employment.. we are now seeing the consequences of Savage's outburst brought out into the wider world and tbh I have no sympathy whatever... he has done the lgbt no favours...
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew
I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one æonpax.
re 1. I agree that high school students are very worldly and tough - and by definition some of them are very nearly adults and can handle their religion being called bullshit. But it is still not fair game in my opinion to call their religion bullshit in their space. These are young people whose brains are not yet fully developed - they have fewer rights, and more protections, than adults for good reason. An adult had no business walking into a teen space and using language that the teens themselves are not allowed to use in that space. What would have happened if one of the teenagers present had called Dan Savage a "bullshitter" - presumably they would have been disciplined and rightly so. Teen spaces do not operate under the same rules as the outside world. This is the science of applied child education in practice. Savage had no business treating that time and place like any other time and place - he was at a convention of teenagers. It was not fair game to say what he said to that audience.
re 2. I completely disagree. Of course calling teenagers "pansy-assed" is bullying. Your claim that name-calling is not bullying seems way off to me (are you thinking of "bullying" = "assault"?). And "pansy-assed" (directed at a teen) is not just bullying but a classic nasty example of it. Part of being a teenaged boy/man is coming to grips with one's sexuality and developing an understanding of masculinity. It is a confusing and difficult time. Which is why questioning a (male) teenager's masculinity is such an effective bullying taunt - it specifically tries to exploit that insecurity. This is why you see it so often in (male) teen to teen bullying: "fag", "wimp", "pussy", "homo", "pansy". These are all bullying taunts that the bully hopes will exploit a weakness, masculinity insecurity, in the teenager for the desired harmful effect. I don't think there is any way one can spin calling teenagers "pansy-assed" into anything but what it is, classic bullying. When such a thing comes from an adult, it is especially beyond the pale.
- Drew :paw:
I respectfully disagree with everything you stated.
#1 – a) Please point out where he called a religion “bullshit.” You may use the video and time reference so I may see this too. I saw him refer to the bible as bull shit.
b) As I said sir, it appears you haven’t been in any high schools lately. Your ideal description of what you perceive HS to be clashes dramatically with the reality of what they are now, especially urban high schools. Many of them have armed guards patrolling the halls. You might want to avail yourself to this report on US high schools. (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011320.pdf )
SAT scores (US) are continuing to fall (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/09/...nomic-decline/), US students are falling way behind on basic skills such as reading and math…none of this due to bad language or bullying which you seem preoccupied with. I am more concerned with schools becoming places where students actually learn something as opposed to be a playground for well-meaning but out of touch, social engineers.
#2 – About the word “pansy assed”. Check this out - http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=pansy-assed I looked up this phrase and nowhere does it even suggest that it implies “bullying”. I also took the liberty of attempting to find the term listed as offensive to the LGBT and found nothing. Furthermore, I also looked at a few other news reports and blogs specifically in regards to Savages use of this word ( http://bit.ly/JNQ96v ) and really did not find anyone that agrees the term in itself is bullying. Inappropriate use? Yes. Bullying? No. I can only say that your definition of what constitutes school bullying diametrically is different from mine (http://bit.ly/JpvNOP )
Anyone can be offended by anything. Savages sophomoric remark was aimed at students who walked out to protest his use of the word BS to describe the bible. Whether or not it rises to the academic or legal definition of “bullying”, remains to be proven.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
æonpax
I don't generally pay much attention to Savage, as he has this anti-bisexual streak to him. However, I do agree with him here but he doesn't take it far enough. It's not the bible per se that's the problem, it's those people who decide to believe what it says, literally...as in God made the world in seven, forty hour human days...even before human existed.
The students who walked out of this, wanted to be offended and attending a Dan Savage talk gave them an opportunity for it. Considering the talk was entitled "Journalism On The Edge", what the hell did they expect?
We are still in the 7th 'day', as far as I can muster. That may or may not be true, but in terms of taking it literally we are not yet qualified to grasp the mechanics of it, even if true. So a suspended disbelief is often a wiser choice when reading the Bible.
BUT as pointed out by the lovely Dan, that same suspended disbelief is not implemented with lots of things written. They have 'evolved into'/'discovered to be' false/ungodly/godly.
So those students who you claim to be looking for offence, may have been looking to be persuaded. Unfortunately they were given proof that (if Dan's behaviour is anything to go by) gays are angry, insensitive, bigoted, bullying, self serving dictators much like any other fanatic you'd find on an evangelist spree.
That's all that Dan could offer? "I'm gay! You are stupid! And I'm pissed off at you!"?
Where were all the positive points about homosexuality and homosexuals? No mention of love etc. If he went on to discuss that, it has faded into nothingness due to the lovely adrenaline quenching hate bit.
FAIL!:eek2:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
@æonpax,
Re #1. Who cares if he called the bible bullshit, or instead, christianity bullshit? You are splitting hairs. It is inappropriate to go into a teen space and speak like that of the religion that some of them have been indoctrinated into since they were babies. It is an unfair fight. It is not their fault, or even their choice, that they are of that religion.
I am a huge critic of religion - venomous even. But teenagers are off limits - they get a free pass. Anyone who would attack teenagers for their religion has serious character issues. High Schoolers get the benefit of the doubt.
Re #2. I am aghast that you are trying to claim that calling teenaged boys "pansy-assed" is not bullying.
Dictionary.com:
pansy n.
Slang: Disparaging and Offensive
a. a male homosexual.
b. a weak, effeminate, and often cowardly man.
He could have called them "homos". He could have called them "fems". He could have called them "faggoty". He could have called them "pussies". He chose "pansy-assed". It is all the same thing. He, an adult, questioned the masculinity of (male) teenagers - it is a textbook example of bullying.
He bullied those kids and he should be ashamed of himself. His half-apology is not enough. He needs to apologize completely. In the meantime the anti-bullying campaigns around the world disintegrate in a lack of credibility because one of its leaders can't even tell bullying from acceptable behaviour - so very tragic.
- Drew :paw:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gearbox
We are still in the 7th 'day', as far as I can muster. That may or may not be true, but in terms of taking it literally we are not yet qualified to grasp the mechanics of it, even if true. So a suspended disbelief is often a wiser choice when reading the Bible.
BUT as pointed out by the lovely Dan, that same suspended disbelief is not implemented with lots of things written. They have 'evolved into'/'discovered to be' false/ungodly/godly.
So those students who you claim to be looking for offence, may have been looking to be persuaded. Unfortunately they were given proof that (if Dan's behaviour is anything to go by) gays are angry, insensitive, bigoted, bullying, self serving dictators much like any other fanatic you'd find on an evangelist spree.
That's all that Dan could offer? "I'm gay! You are stupid! And I'm pissed off at you!"?
Where were all the positive points about homosexuality and homosexuals? No mention of love etc. If he went on to discuss that, it has faded into nothingness due to the lovely adrenaline quenching hate bit.
FAIL!:eek2:
I very much doubt that they would have been there to be persuaded..some.. but I doubt all.. I have been to enough really rowdy pubic meetings, spoken and been heckled boo'd and even had stuff chucked at me for what I said and from time to time some even walk out.. mostly people are prepared to give a hearing but not always. It is more likely in the current climate of "tolerance" the right wing US zealotry went with the express intention of doing exactly what they did although if Savage did use the bullshit expression..then more the fool he...
I have been a part of both spontaneous and planned walk outs.. sitting in the public gallery at fascist and neo nazi meetings is fun... u want to have profanity thrown at whether or not u walk out try popping along to one of those... word to the good..don't go to the loo on ur own..at all if u can avoid it!! Losing the plot and ranting at those who protest ur words or walk out harms the cause which u espouse.. whether or not it is kids who are the audience.. which is why I and people like me attend meetings of shitty groups like fascist and neo nazi organisations.. attend anti abortion rallies... anti lgbt groups... anti immigration meetings.. we gauge the speakers, learn what we can of them beforehand when we can, and act accordingly..we goad them into making errors of judgement and they invariably bite the bait to their detriment.. it is likely that at least some who walked out planned to do exactly what they did to get the effect they wanted from a man they hated... and like a dimwit he fell into their trap... so he confirmed in their minds exactly what u say they think gays and bisexual people are and very possibly in the minds of those kids who had no agenda but did want to know and did want to learn and who maybe, just maybe were open to persuasion......
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gearbox
We are still in the 7th 'day', as far as I can muster. That may or may not be true, but in terms of taking it literally we are not yet qualified to grasp the mechanics of it, even if true. So a suspended disbelief is often a wiser choice when reading the Bible.
BUT as pointed out by the lovely Dan, that same suspended disbelief is not implemented with lots of things written. They have 'evolved into'/'discovered to be' false/ungodly/godly.
So those students who you claim to be looking for offence, may have been looking to be persuaded. Unfortunately they were given proof that (if Dan's behaviour is anything to go by) gays are angry, insensitive, bigoted, bullying, self serving dictators much like any other fanatic you'd find on an evangelist spree.
That's all that Dan could offer? "I'm gay! You are stupid! And I'm pissed off at you!"?
Where were all the positive points about homosexuality and homosexuals? No mention of love etc. If he went on to discuss that, it has faded into nothingness due to the lovely adrenaline quenching hate bit.
FAIL!:eek2:
First, I absolutely agree that Dan Savage is the LGBT's worst enemy BUT, his "It Gets Better Project" not only enjoys the support of the LGBT but also President Obama. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Gets_Better_Project ) What we have here appears to be a dichotomy.
Secondly, it's only conservative groups whom are accusing Savage of bullying, to wit;
Quote:
"Conservative Groups Accuse Dan Savage Of ‘Bullying’ After He Highlights Their Hypocrisy - Christian conservative groups are condemning Dan Savage — the founder of the anti-bullying It Gets Better project — for “bullying” religious students who walked out of a recent lecture in which the popular sex columnist pointed out “the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible and insisting that we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other.
Savage made the remarks at the National High School Journalism Conference, causing a group of students to walk out as he began discussing the moral problems contained within the religious document..." Source -
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/0...nsy/?mobile=nc
Considering all the inane rhetoric the right has been coming up with, "bullying" seems to be just another word they are misusing.
Lastly, I don't want this incident confused with real and seriously problem of bullying, especially for LGBT students. Bullying is a systematic approach and combined incidences. The mere utterance of offensive words by some lame-brain should not be viewed a "bullying" that is coupled with the violence or threat of violence, as it it exists now.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
"We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible" is first said by Savage at 3:21 minutes into the video.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
æonpax
Not any more. It is dead. No good person with a high public profile is going to go anywhere near it now. Unless Savage builds on his half-apology, and fully apologizes.
Worse, I think most anti-bullying programs in high schools will be seriously damaged by these events and will die. If one of the leaders of the whole endeavour can't tell the difference between bullying and appropriate behaviour toward teenagers then what hope is there for the movement? I think it is all lost.
- Drew :paw:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeonpax
First, I absolutely agree that Dan Savage is the LGBT's worst enemy BUT, his "It Gets Better Project" not only enjoys the support of the LGBT but also President Obama. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Gets_Better_Project ) What we have here appears to be a dichotomy. Secondly, it's only conservative groups whom are accusing Savage of bullying, to wit;
Actually Obama started the Make it better anti-bullying campaign first before Savage's vanity and self promotion pet project It gets better was around. There were also a lot of LGBT youth anti-bullying and anti-suicide groups that actually did things and empowered LGBT youth besides just telling them to watch youtube videos and do nothing but repeat "It gets better". Futhermore not all LGBT people even like the it gets better project and I know a lot of bisexuals, trans people, lesbians, and even gay men who don't like Dan Savage and who don't like It gets better. It gets better is just a bullshit PR campaign, nothing more. Telling LGBT and hetero kids to put up with bullying until they leave school is not constructive advice. It’s cruel. School boards, school administrators, teachers, etc, need to have zero tolerance policy for bullying. It’s not uncommon for teachers to bully unpopular kids themselves. That’s where the changes need to be made… The reason “It Gets Better” caught on with politicians and celebrities (some of who were/are closeted when they made IGB videos) is because it’s great PR and it requires absolutely NOTHING from them in the way of real action. Those of us who have known about Dan Savage for decades and have friends in Seattle and the Pacific Northwest know that Dan Savage is an opportunistic parasite who will not hesitate to throw you under the bus if you don’t fit into his vision of right wing Log-cabin-lite Conservative politics. He completely supported the 2nd Iraq war, and when prop 8 passed in the state of CA he didn't actually look at who voted for it but threw a bitch fit and completely blamed black people for it which is not only racist but it's not true. The It Gets Better campaign does nothing to empower queer youth. In fact, we are seeing a whole generation of LGBT kids make these videos and then kill themselves, while Dan Savage tells them to pull themselves to up by their bootstraps and he profits off the dead by hawking his self-help books, making money off of LGBT youth and LGBT issues. what we need is action and strategy, a battle plan to help LGBT kids survive, and deal directly with the homophobes/biphobes (for example, how to file a complaint and lawsuit against your school district) and not snake oil charms like the It Gets Better media sham. Dan Savage only started the it gets better project not to actually help LGBT youth all while practicing his right wing bigotry and hypocrisy of being transphobic, biphobic, and racist; but to self promote and get a reality TV show on MTV. LGBT youth are not watching the it gets better videos and we've seen LGBT youth who actually made videos who kill themselves. While we argue over the entire matter he cashes another check, extracted from the combined misery of every LGBT person who has been abused by society or family. The man makes his money off of our collective misery.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew
@æonpax,
Re #1. Who cares if he called the bible bullshit, or instead, christianity bullshit? You are splitting hairs. It is inappropriate to go into a teen space and speak like that of the religion that some of them have been indoctrinated into since they were babies. It is an unfair fight. It is not their fault, or even their choice, that they are of that religion.
I am a huge critic of religion - venomous even. But teenagers are off limits - they get a free pass. Anyone who would attack teenagers for their religion has serious character issues. High Schoolers get the benefit of the doubt.
Re #2. I am aghast that you are trying to claim that calling teenaged boys "pansy-assed" is not bullying.
Dictionary.com:
pansy n.
Slang: Disparaging and Offensive
a. a male homosexual.
b. a weak, effeminate, and often cowardly man.
He could have called them "homos". He could have called them "fems". He could have called them "faggoty". He could have called them "pussies". He chose "pansy-assed". It is all the same thing. He, an adult, questioned the masculinity of (male) teenagers - it is a textbook example of bullying.
He bullied those kids and he should be ashamed of himself. His half-apology is not enough. He needs to apologize completely. In the meantime the anti-bullying campaigns around the world disintegrate in a lack of credibility because one of its leaders can't even tell bullying from acceptable behaviour - so very tragic.
- Drew :paw:
Excuse me but YOU were the one accusing Savage of calling Christianity or religion BS, you are back tracking now. I stated from the beginning he was referring to the Bible. Read your own posts.
The article reported on the "reaction" of the conservative right's reaction to Savage's remarks. You are talking about indoctrination and other things Not mentioned in the article. I agree, his remarks were inappropriate but to suggest it was in any way or shape "harmful" to teens is really a stretch of imagination here and goes way beyond this incident.
Why are you aghast? This article was NOT about teen boys being called pansy's, it was about Savages remarks and the reaction of the students and conservatives. Please highlight where I or the article mentioned anything about gay teens or any gays at all? It is you that are dragging your own agenda into this.
If you want to consider the phrase, "pansy-ass" as being overly insulting and detrimentally demeaning, have at it. This is one of those "to each their own" situations. I just disagree.
I'm sorry to say our definitions of what constitutes bullying differ greatly. While I disagree with Savage's choice of words, that fact is...he is right...people use the bible to justify their hatred and prejudice against gays, and that is BS.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew
@æonpax,
Re #2. I am aghast that you are trying to claim that calling teenaged boys "pansy-assed" is not bullying.
Dictionary.com:
pansy n.
Slang: Disparaging and Offensive
a. a male homosexual.
b. a weak, effeminate, and often cowardly man.
He could have called them "homos". He could have called them "fems". He could have called them "faggoty". He could have called them "pussies". He chose "pansy-assed". It is all the same thing. He, an adult, questioned the masculinity of (male) teenagers - it is a textbook example of bullying.
He bullied those kids and he should be ashamed of himself. His half-apology is not enough. He needs to apologize completely. In the meantime the anti-bullying campaigns around the world disintegrate in a lack of credibility because one of its leaders can't even tell bullying from acceptable behaviour - so very tragic.
- Drew :paw:
Name calling requires something more to make itself intimidatory.. ur wrong in this,Drew... I could call u a fucking prat because I disagree with u on this, but I wouldn't be trying to bully u into agreeing with me.. it would be an expression of contempt arising from our disagreement ( which can be lighthearted or serious.. I am neither cos even if I disagree with ya, I dont think ur a fucking prat... ).. u need more than just cursing and swearing allied to name calling to move into bullying.. trust me on this.. I see both every day and know when profanity allied to name calling is bullying and when it isn't.. it requires something else to make into that... kids me luffly, when in gangs, tend 2 b very reluctant 2 b bullied or intimidated... so be as aghast asya like.. ur wrong... Savage may well be a bully.. but this time he was just a prick...
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
" I see both every day and know when profanity allied to name calling is bullying and when it isn't.. it requires something else to make into that... kids me luffly, when in gangs, tend 2 b very reluctant 2 b bullied or intimidated."
Ok. darkeyes.
I was following you until the section about "kids me luffly, when in gangs, tend 2 b very reluctant 2 b bullied or intimidated." Please clarify?
Kids in gangs may intimidate others outside the gang by name calling and that is bullying. They may name call some within the group. You are correct that depending upon what they say and act may be factors as to how it is received. Unfortunately, though, you know that some kid's judgment is not on target and they do not get that their words are bullying another person. The kid using language doesn't get to decide if he/she is a bully.
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darkeyes
Name calling requires something more to make itself intimidatory.. ur wrong in this,Drew... I could call u a fucking prat because I disagree with u on this, but I wouldn't be trying to bully u into agreeing with me.. it would be an expression of contempt arising from our disagreement ( which can be lighthearted or serious.. I am neither cos even if I disagree with ya, I dont think ur a fucking prat... ).. u need more than just cursing and swearing allied to name calling to move into bullying.. trust me on this.. I see both every day and know when profanity allied to name calling is bullying and when it isn't.. it requires something else to make into that... kids me luffly, when in gangs, tend 2 b very reluctant 2 b bullied or intimidated... so be as aghast asya like.. ur wrong... Savage may well be a bully.. but this time he was just a prick...
But there is more in this case. He was questioning the masculinity of these teenagers. It is classic bullying. It is the exact kind of bullying educators are trying to take out of schools, and coaches are trying to take out of locker rooms - or least they were until Savage blew it all up.
Substitute "pansy-assed" with any of the following:
"faggot"
"pussy"
"sissy"
"wimp"
"homo"
"fem"
"girly-boy"
"cry baby"
Which of those are bullying when directed toward teenaged boys and which are not? It is a rhetorical question - they all are of course. To speak in a denigrating manner to teenagers and question their sexuality and masculinity is bullying - always has been and always will be.
pansy n.
Slang: Disparaging and Offensive
a. a male homosexual.
b. a weak, effeminate, and often cowardly man.
- Drew :paw:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
`
Drew,
I get the feeling we are missing a connection here. I do not nor have ever liked Dan Savage. To me, he's sort of a Sarah Palin. What he (and she) says about anything I totally ignore and treat them both as a pariah. Because of that, I do not follow his antics nor have I ever run across his opinions that I felt were worth my ire. Both him and Palin can languish in the celebrity cesspools they have created for themselves for all I care.
A few months ago, the Savage topic came up here and so out of touch was I with Savage, I had to look him up. He's just not that intelligent, intuitive or sincere for me to give a shit what he says or thinks. Oh, he has his fans but if they are anything like him, they too become inconsequential non-entities.
Despite the fact that there are pundits I disagree with or dislike, does not mean that I don't occasionally read what they say and on that infrequent occasion, agree with something they said. For example, in a rare moment of lucidity, Bill O’Reilly came to the defense of lesbian Ellen DeGeneres ( http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ellen-deg...defending-her/ ) I was surprised. My point is that I try not to let my own prejudices dismiss the possibility that no matter how cretaceous I think a person is, that may have a moment where they can clearly see an issue.
Dan Savage was a poor choice for speakers and given his history of offensive statements, should not have been invited. Having said that, while his coarse and abusive language overshadowed it, his message that many Christians use the Bible's quotations as a reason for hatred, is what I agree with. Now of course, that is like the pot calling the kettle black as Savage is a hypocrite himself, but what he says rings true, despite what I think of him.
To quote the journalist Linda Ellerbee, "and so it goes."
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
æonpax
Excuse me but YOU were the one accusing Savage of calling Christianity or religion BS, you are back tracking now. I stated from the beginning he was referring to the Bible. Read your own posts.
The article reported on the "reaction" of the conservative right's reaction to Savage's remarks. You are talking about indoctrination and other things Not mentioned in the article. I agree, his remarks were inappropriate but to suggest it was in any way or shape "harmful" to teens is really a stretch of imagination here and goes way beyond this incident.
Why are you aghast? This article was NOT about teen boys being called pansy's, it was about Savages remarks and the reaction of the students and conservatives. Please highlight where I or the article mentioned anything about gay teens or any gays at all? It is you that are dragging your own agenda into this.
If you want to consider the phrase, "pansy-ass" as being overly insulting and detrimentally demeaning, have at it. This is one of those "to each their own" situations. I just disagree.
I'm sorry to say our definitions of what constitutes bullying differ greatly. While I disagree with Savage's choice of words, that fact is...he is right...people use the bible to justify their hatred and prejudice against gays, and that is BS.
I never even read the original article. I was referring to the video I attached in my first post - which is the original source of the article and the topic. In it he calls a group of teenagers who just left the room "pansy-assed".
I'm sorry if I was too harsh in my posts - I think I got carried away. I do that sometimes. I didn't mean to come across as insulting. I apologize.
I think it could not be more obvious that Savage's behaviour was bullying. If there was a book on how to bully teenaged boys the first, last and only chapter would be "Question Their Masculinity and Sexual Orientation". The word "pansy" would be featured prominently along with many other denigrating terms to refer to homo/bisexuality.
And yes, I agree 100% with this, "people use the bible to justify their hatred and prejudice against gays, and that is BS." It just seems to me to be irrelevant when I can see teenagers being bullied.
- Drew :paw:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
æonpax
`
Drew,
I get the feeling we are missing a connection here. I do not nor have ever liked Dan Savage. To me, he's sort of a Sarah Palin. What he (and she) says about anything I totally ignore and treat them both as a pariah. Because of that, I do not follow his antics nor have I ever run across his opinions that I felt were worth my ire. Both him and Palin can languish in the celebrity cesspools they have created for themselves for all I care.
A few months ago, the Savage topic came up here and so out of touch was I with Savage, I had to look him up. He's just not that intelligent, intuitive or sincere for me to give a shit what he says or thinks. Oh, he has his fans but if they are anything like him, they too become inconsequential non-entities.
Despite the fact that there are pundits I disagree with or dislike, does not mean that I don't occasionally read what they say and on that infrequent occasion, agree with something they said. For example, in a rare moment of lucidity, Bill O’Reilly came to the defense of lesbian Ellen DeGeneres (
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ellen-deg...defending-her/ ) I was surprised. My point is that I try not to let my own prejudices dismiss the possibility that no matter how cretaceous I think a person is, that may have a moment where they can clearly see an issue.
Dan Savage was a poor choice for speakers and given his history of offensive statements, should not have been invited. Having said that, while his coarse and abusive language overshadowed it, his message that many Christians use the Bible's quotations as a reason for hatred, is what I agree with. Now of course, that is like the pot calling the kettle black as Savage is a hypocrite himself, but what he says rings true, despite what I think of him.
To quote the journalist Linda Ellerbee, "
and so it goes."
We are 100% aligned on that. I take pride in calling it as I see it too, even if it means going against the crowd.
I apologize again for getting a wee bit excited about the topic - I think I came across as insulting and it wasn't my intention, but I take responsibility for it. I try to avoid the topics that I know will really get me going because I can get carried away. But they are always the most interesting topics!
- Drew :paw:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
OK I think there's a bit of confusion as to what bullying is. I'd put psychological bullying in the same bag as physical bullying. No fists nor boots are used in cyber-bullying, yet it's bullying, for eg.
Dan had this to say about the teenage walkouts: "It's funny how someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy assed some people react when you push back.".
WTF? Those kids were not responsible for his beatings, yet he not only insinuated that they were all for it, but also admitted that he was on the attack. He had a cheering crowd to support him as he attacked them. Typical!
This wasn't a discussion, or bit of friendly banter! It was Dan on the offensive, psychologically bullying kids who were too 'pansy assed' to confront him.
Not ALL teenagers feel secure in a crowd that's against them, and see them as 'the enemy'. Fek sake!:eek2:
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Re: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible, Right-Wing Groups Spring Into Actio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tenni
" I see both every day and know when profanity allied to name calling is bullying and when it isn't.. it requires something else to make into that... kids me luffly, when in gangs, tend 2 b very reluctant 2 b bullied or intimidated."
Ok. darkeyes.
I was following you until the section about "kids me luffly, when in gangs, tend 2 b very reluctant 2 b bullied or intimidated." Please clarify?
Kids in gangs may intimidate others outside the gang by name calling and that is bullying. They may name call some within the group. You are correct that depending upon what they say and act may be factors as to how it is received. Unfortunately, though, you know that some kid's judgment is not on target and they do not get that their words are bullying another person. The kid using language doesn't get to decide if he/she is a bully.
Its simple enough, tenni.. when in a group kids will stand their ground more easily than when alone.. obvious innit? Least I thought so.. in part because they have support and in part because they don;t want to lose face with their peers... although if their is another gang of bigger kids facing them down and/or their is more of 'em.. was this the case here? Nope.. actually there ay have been some bullying here.. by those who didn't like what Savage had to say intimidating their m8s into doing as they wanted.. I am not saying there was because I dont know, but it's possible.. eve in gangs and groups of kids, and adults for that matter the weakest often get led and that being led is sometimes as a consequence of peer bullying from members of the group.. I ask u..is Dan savage a gang? Was he a gang in this instance? No.. he was one mouthy son of a bitch with a gob like a sewer who didn't like what some in his audience thought or what they believed or how they responded to what he said.. I don't excuse him one jot what he did or said but I don't think what he did was bully.. but u r right.. sometimes the words we use can be construed as bullying and sometimes even can be even although we thought otherwise... not in this case though I don;t think.. a subjective judgment but one I stand by.. it is rather akin to a PM calling the opposition the the Commons a bunch of twats or some other such name.. it is for effect or because he had lost the plot and had become rattled... also because he himself had shown himself to be a bit of a twat..
I have watched this vid 3 or 4 times now..no matter what I see.. I do not see a man attempting to bully...