Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??
Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??
First,God created man, then woman, then temptation,then confusion
Re: What religion was,,,
looks to me like you created confusion Goldenfinger.Originally Posted by goldenfinger
FIRE IN THE BELLY
According to the Bible, then yes God created Adam and then Eve. But I'm not sure where you are going with this theorectical thread.
What about Lilith?
According to some of the excluded Bible parts she came after Adam, She liked it on top. But apparently God wanted a male dominate following.
What about 'the other people'?
Cain is said to have gone into the land of Nod and there dwell amongst other people, who had been there all along.
There are many such contradictions and curiosities, I could expound upon but will not. Christianity is not for me nor me for it. Some of these type of questions contribute to why the case is such. One which really sinks in good is the one about omnipotence.
If God is all powerful, knowing and and all around perfect being, why does she/he/it need us?
The best response so far has been it expresses love through us. But that response can be countered by our ongoing love of war. "Gee, expressing love, really?"
And I don't buy the whole notion of freewill either. God creates you, knows you 100%, knows what you'll choose. Where is that freewill, then?
Bah. Excuse me, dallied too long here. No offense intended but merely putting forward some morsels for thought, maybe conversation.
Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.
First,God created man, then woman, then temptation,then confusion
Between this..
http://www.perceivingreality.com
..and this..
http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospel...6349459&sr=1-1
..and this..
http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Accordi...6349498&sr=1-3
..and this..
http://www.amazon.com/New-Christiani...6349536&sr=1-1
..and this..
http://www.amazon.com/Lovingkindness.../dp/157062903X
..somewhere I am seeing that LOVE has a lot to do with it because deep spiritual love is the one force that can transcend difference..it gets us to open the door when we don't want to.
In answer to void's question, there was a rabbi who after losing his young son in an automobile accident came to the conclusion that God could either be "all-loving' or "all powerful" but not both..
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124582959
Personally, I choose to believe that it's all loving - while I may be in pain at times there has always been a still, soft voice calling me on..urging me to continue..apologizing for the weather (if THAT doesn't tell you that God isn't all powerful I don't know what will).
I don't claim to know all the answers, and I don't mean to insult anyone's faith or intelligence but these resources have made a huge impact on me - and it all started when questioning my sexuality made me look outside the box..
They talked to God directly goldenfinger, they didn't NEED an institutionalized religion..but there are other good reasons to go to church..Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isiVn2Dnv78
Religion WAS a lot more inclusive - it was only in "recent" history that it became lopsided.. if you ever get a chance to watch the video below..it is worth watching..
http://www.clpearson.com/mother_wove_morning.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Wove-Mo.../dp/1562363077
Last edited by elian; Sep 18, 2011 at 8:57 AM.
I find the story of Adam&Eve fascinating!!
if you view it as an explanation as to how a pure singular consciousness developed ego's, it makes much more sense.
'The Tree Of Knowledge' maybe the imagined possibilities that couldn't be realised by a pure explorer. Hence the serpent that yearned for a further separation of the&
ego's from the pure higher consciousness.
Much like temptation in our minds: "I know I shouldn't do it! But it would be so good to experience it.".
When you put it that way gearbox .. our spiritual ancestors found the urge to know and the sensation of direct experience too irresistible to pass up.. For as much talking up I do of compassionate loving kindness it is true that without the dark we would not be able to recognize and appreciate the light.
I've always found it peculiar that there is such a divide between science and faith - I mean if you take Bible stories LITERALLY that would mean that when "God" put Adam to sleep and took out one of his ribs to make Eve "he" must have been using what we now know of as "genetic engineering".
Similarly the only "Pillar of Salt" I have heard of or seen photos of has been from the atomic testing in the Nevada/New Mexico Desert. Must say something peculiar about OUR culture that people used to put on sunglasses and take a picnic lunch to watch the blast..
I go round in circles chasing my tail over that one.
But science is only the exploration and examination of THIS world in a practical sense. Big difference between what qualifies as 'real' in science and 'real' in faith & philosophy etc etc.
In consciousness, we explore as individuals with various tunings of our only tool (the mind).
In science we use the regulation specific tool for each task. The mind, not being one of them, excluding theory which is subject only to acceptability.
Hence The Paranormal.
No matter how many people claim that they've seen a ghost, UFO, Alien, Jesus, Loch Ness Monster, or experienced NDE's, Astral Travel, Precognition, Telepathy, Psychokinesis, Psychometry, Levitation etc etc etc It is NOT 'real' unless it can be reproduced on demand in a lab (become practical).
So that's how science struggles with religion/beliefs. (See threads about Bisexuality existing too.
I've read about atomic weapons being used way before they were 'invented'. Also aerial maps, flying machines, compasses, batteries etc etc. It does make you wonder if there's anything original these days. Maybe we access knowledge when we think we create it?
Well most Catholics, like me, believe that the story of Adam and Eve is just meant as a teaching tool about things like the nature of man. It isn't meant to be taken literally. Actually, most Catholics believe in evolution. But some Christians believe in a literal translation of that story. Many of the Old Testament stories are meant to teach morals and such and aren't a real history lesson.
Fake glasses + Mustache tattoo = perfect disguise
This lady would be fun to talk to at a party:I go round in circles chasing my tail over that one.
But science is only the exploration and examination of THIS world in a practical sense. Big difference between what qualifies as 'real' in science and 'real' in faith & philosophy etc etc.
In consciousness, we explore as individuals with various tunings of our only tool (the mind).
In science we use the regulation specific tool for each task. The mind, not being one of them, excluding theory which is subject only to acceptability.
Hence The Paranormal.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandre...ch_atwood.html
What is "real"? What is "true"? ..it is all in how we see things in the world.. Some people prefer their faith to be tangible - they can touch a rock, they can see it in an electron microscope, they insert A into a box and B comes out the other end - they want to know why - that's not bad.
The world is happy to oblige them...to a point. Once you start realizing that at the quantum level there are all sorts of weird possibilities then our well known laws start to break down.
I have had so many strange and peculiar direct experiences that I choose to believe that there is SOMETHING out there we can't quite put our finger on..I don't know exactly what it is.
I don't have a problem with people who have spiritual belief in divine power, nor do I have animosity against folks with a scientific mind - as long as personal responsibility and compassion are also a part of their belief.
Honorable Mention: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandre...winterson.html (she is funny)
Last edited by elian; Sep 18, 2011 at 3:46 PM.
Specifically, I believe it was nothing more than the religion of "I created you, and you can do anything you like as long as you don't eat of the fruit of this tree." Times were simpler then. (And either pigs hadn't been invented yet, or there was no temptation to eat them without apples.Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.)
But yeah, I agree that the story is meant more as a parable than as history. Does this really keep you up at night, or are you trying to sow seeds of destruction by floating a theoretical religious thread?
I hope my achievements in life shall be these: that I will have fought for what was right and fair, that I will have risked for that which mattered, that I will have given help to those who were in need...that I will have left the earth a better place for what I've done and who I've been. (C. Hoppe)
Annika, you must have been goofing off in Sunday school. Pigs did not become forbidden until Mount Sinai, centuries later.Specifically, I believe it was nothing more than the religion of "I created you, and you can do anything you like as long as you don't eat of the fruit of this tree." Times were simpler then. (And either pigs hadn't been invented yet, or there was no temptation to eat them without apples.
But yeah, I agree that the story is meant more as a parable than as history. Does this really keep you up at night, or are you trying to sow seeds of destruction by floating a theoretical religious thread?
Bacon... mmmmmmm.. orgasmic... some daft bugga forbade pig munchin? Not in my house they didnt...
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
This may well sound disgusting (it did to me when I first heard of it), but this summer at the beach I tried chocolate covered bacon. Don't ask what possessed me to try it...ask rather what possessed anyone to *sell* it. For my part it was a moment of weakness for two of my favorite addictions at once.Bacon... mmmmmmm.. orgasmic... some daft bugga forbade pig munchin? Not in my house they didnt...
Anyway, it was a tentative sale: four of us split one piece. The only way I can describe it is "disgustingly delicious". The kind of enjoyment that leaves one feeling sullied...but not particularly regretful.
That said, I'm glad I did it, I highly recommend the experience, and I hope I never do it again.
I hope my achievements in life shall be these: that I will have fought for what was right and fair, that I will have risked for that which mattered, that I will have given help to those who were in need...that I will have left the earth a better place for what I've done and who I've been. (C. Hoppe)
Don't feel bad Annika, I had a deep fried candy bar at the fair one year - it was good - I figure one every few years can't hurt THAT much right?
Apparently there is even a chef someplace that sells deep fried pounds of butter...now that's just wrong..
Just want the TRUTH,how can I argue with other people if I don't have the TRUTH. Ofcause, I could just ask FRED PHELP or JW's GB, they both know the truth,but not too many people believe them, but they have the right to believe they are the only people GOD talks to.
First,God created man, then woman, then temptation,then confusion
People just trying to make sense of the world man, some of it has done more harm than good but some of it has also inspired good. Believe what you want, but do make sure you have a) personal responsibility and b) compassion.
It has been my experience that in a weird twisted sort of way Fred Phelps actually ends up being a catalyst for GOOD in the community. The few times we have been picketed here it was their 5 or 6 people to our 100-200 people who felt motivated to stand up for unity, diversity, LGBT rights..
BTW, his "church" isn't really out to convert anyone, by his philosophy the louder you scream the more righteous you are in the eyes of God..I feel that such hatred and self righteousness is blasphemous and very much contrary to the heart of what the great prophets of our faiths all taught.. Jesus for example would have probably said that he should put his neighbor FIRST before himself..
MLK wanted to work hard to eliminate economic disparity because he probably knew that people would be resentful of inequity. When he reminded people of the commandment to "Love thy Neighbor" he was actually being very practical. People with love in their heart are more likely to forgive and less quick to anger, he wanted people to wish their neighbor success - a successful neighbor will not have to resort to stealing just to survive.. living with compassion is actually in our best self interest.
Last edited by elian; Sep 18, 2011 at 11:05 PM.
I was looking for an simple answer,something without peoples interference.Is that possible???
First,God created man, then woman, then temptation,then confusion
Truth is a subjective creature which inherently is tainted by human beings, no matter how much one tries sanitizing it. From my humble view Truth may exist but it is doubtful anyone may own or know it. Truth would not need defending nor debating. it would just be and all would know it for Truth.
I have attempted granting a simple answer above. You may or may not appreciate it but at least I tried.I was looking for an simple answer,something without peoples interference.Is that possible???
To further expound and simplify, we do not know what religion God installed in the first couple. We were not there, nor did we give God an operating system, nay did God ask us either. Most believe it was simply, "I AM GOD, Worship me." Beyond that, the general thought is no religion as such was needed.
I apologize for a sarcastic reply earlier. I am a soft Atheist whom leans toward Taoist and Hermetic teachings. Sometimes, I am best served not responding. But I am human and make mistakes.
Last edited by void(); Sep 19, 2011 at 4:57 AM.
Yes, absolutely - many millions of people live their lives every day through direct experience and form their own value system based on that rather than looking for answers from other people..
There will be interference from at least one person though, yourself..everything we "see" in this world is filtered by the sum of our experiences. Will you see what is really there, or what you think you thought you saw? Be careful not to jump to conclusions, especially where people are concerned..if we all did THAT then maybe the world WOULD be a better place.
I prefer to at least try to listen to what other people say, I don't have to agree with everything they say but maybe I can learn from the wisdom of their experience.
Some people are never satisfied with second hand knowledge and that is fine - the world accommodates both and everything in between really. The early Gnostic Christians were very much into the idea that people should strive to gain direct knowledge and "know" God independently through that knowledge - but that is way more modern than "Adam and Eve".
There is something healing for people about telling their own part of the story and other people listening - we're so damn busy over here that people don't know which end is up sometimes. There are a lot of hurting people who just need someone to listen..not offer advice even but just listen.
Last edited by elian; Sep 19, 2011 at 6:08 AM.
I'm an atheist myself,but have befriended an EX JW about a year ago, and have had a lot of fun trying to re-program him.He has been out of JW since 1992, but still cling to the bible about the whole world only being 6000 years old, and he claim that Adam and Eve was JW, in fact, he said all religious people are JW. Doesn't matter how screwed up they are and how badly they have been treated by JW, they still defend them and their belief.
So, Adam and Eve had no religion, so why should we???
First,God created man, then woman, then temptation,then confusion
Religion is mans response to revelation. one should be very careful where they get their revelation. If it is true or false. Man was created to have a spiritual relationship with their maker, mans fall was trying to rob God of His Glory, There is only one true God. Man cannot be God he can only be a reflection of God in Jesus Christ.
The word revelation infers a revealing of something. Some of us go the distance in studying. This leads to an understanding of there not being much left to be revealed. Not sure of others and only speaking for self, much has been revealed and digested without any deity. Can admit there is probably much more to be revealed. Care to move the veil for me?
And by the by, I am hard pressed to believe an actual Jesus existed. The main reason I do not believe in his existence is that Romans were highly retentive about making records. No actual records of Jesus' trail have been found to exist, and something on that level ( he was accused of being there to overthrow the aristocracy), would in my opinion have merited quite more than a surplus of documents for public display.
"Hey, this Jesus guy wants to kill the wealthy ruling class!" ,says one priest in the markets.
"We'll make an example of him by public trail and crucifixion!" ,says the Republic's guardsman.
Which by the way crucifixion was not preformed as the Bible suggests. The poles were simply that, no cross beams. The prisoners were garroted from behind the pole via twine twisted. Likely such more than oft involved decapitations than broken legs.
I read a great deal, Bible, concordances, Torah and other various religious doctrines and works inclusive. Of course, I also read secular texts as well. No, I'm not the devil quoting scripture. I am just one who read something which defied comprehension and asked questions. Found some answers. Some were satisfactory, some were not. So, go ahead and slide Isis' veil aside if you can, reveal for me.
The earliest reference to Jesus in non-Christian sources is in Tacitus, who wrote about seventy years after Jesus' death.
Jesus probably was a real person, since both Christian and non-Christian sources who lived not that long after his time regarded him as being a real person. Some future age will probably say that George washington was a mythical person.
Thank you for that tread Jamie, Thank you void dweller for your response and will try to answer further. God is the revealer of all Truth, About Himself so what ones studies must be tested by ultimate Divine truth not by books of men or logic or ism s. He reveals Himself in many ways we cannot put God in a box but for sure He has given us His Holy word and you are correct we are to study it not just read it. We are sharing here Godly Truth only one source-God Himself. So are revelation will be are response (religion). And we know there are many false religions out there with false revelation so test what you believe. IT is written that 500 people saw Jesus after resurrecting from the grave, and many historical books also refer to the person-Jesus. Thank You Ben
"And we know there are many false religions out there with false revelation so test what you believe."
For people who chose to believe in one religion, I think that it is best to tone down the dogmatic rhetoric about false religions or one religion being the "right" religion in a democratic secular society. For those that live in societies that impose one state religion, you have my sympathy. Spirituality is not bound by one religion or any specific religion. It is best to look at the essence of various religions to find a path to enlightenment.
And lets not forget the difference between religion and spirituality. For me religion is your outward expression of your personal beliefs, that which others can label you by. Spirituality is your personal relationship between you and God. God doesn't care what religion you are, just that you are spiritual with him (or her-which ever you believe).
We all learn in different ways. There are some people who get concerned with other people "not knowing" about God but we are all subject to the same laws of nature..there is no "escaping" anything in this world..we all rely on each other. We are here to do what we are here to do and there's no stopping that..you can try to delay it but not likely to happen.
I can certainly understand about some folks insistence that "Man" is not the center of universe - Why just today I was driving down the highway and met some people who must've thought with much certainty that the universe revolved around them..
It would be a mistake to say that people who don't believe in God are less moral, that they need to be "fixed" - in much the same way that it would be a mistake to say that a gay person is less moral and needs to be "fixed". All people are a part of creation, worthy of love and respect and simply put - since we don't live in a vacuum you get what you give.
I don't generally have a problem with individuals, it's institutions that bother me and institutional responses that have done a lot of harm. However, sometimes the institutions have actually done good, in feudal days the Church was often the only mediator between a landowner and the peasants who worked the land.. who ELSE would the King listen to, except for GOD?
Also used to be, when wheels were made of wood that church was THE social and spiritual gathering place. it helped to build a sense of community. You KNEW when a family was doing well, or needed a helping hand because you SAW them. Every once in a while you hear about someone who mistakenly thinks that government might make a good surrogate for getting to know your neighbors and participating in local community..usually these stories don't turn out well.
Take an hour out of your week and "Think Different" - think less about "me" and more about "we" .. in a reverent way - that's not a bad thing.
There are places you can go that don't look down on free will - that's why I chose the church I go to - they DON'T say "What you believe is wrong, but don't worry - we'll fix you." But they DO challenge you to be the best person you can be spiritually.. For a church that has members that are Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Humanists, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Pagans to come together and worship with a sense of love and shared community is something very special to me. I could never figure out why there is so much hatred and division over religion if we are all loved and provided for.
How does the miraculous feat of so many people worshiping under one roof happen you ask? Simple, We value wisdom, we value diversity, we recognize that each of us has our own experiences in life. Short of a few basic principles we draw religious inspiration from MANY sources - the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, poems, Native American prayers, quotes from humanist sources - Everyone is entitled to their own belief, but we do talk, we do our best to listen, we do challenge one another to view things differently by relating our different experiences... However it is always done with love and in the spirit of trying to figure out "the truth" - whatever that is..
Last edited by elian; Sep 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM.
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