HISTORICAL FACTS ABOUT GUN CONTROL

[gen11]

The following is historical fact. Form your own conclusions:

1911: Turkey establishes gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were rounded up and exterminated.

1929: Soviet Union establishes gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated, plus another 30 miliion that were starved to dealth in the Ukrane.

1935: China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were rounded up and esterminated.

1938: Germany established gun control. We know what happened to German citizens, European Jews, and the whole world afterwards.

1956: Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, between one to two million "educated" people were rounded up and exterminated.

1964: Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and exterminated.

1979: Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians were rounded up and extermined. Total dead in Uganda during this
time is estimate at two to three million.

Australia: Gun owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, destroyed by the government at a cost of approximately $400 million.
Homicides went up 3.2 percent
Armed robberies went up 44 percent. That's not 4.4 percent, it's 44.
In the State of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent

[Realist]

Huffington Post 6/26/10:

Chicago Police Department statistics, we were told, reveal that the City's handgun murder rate has actually increased since the ban was enacted and that Chicago residents now face one of the highest murder rates in the country and rates of other violent crimes that exceed the average in comparable cities.

[tenni]

Gen
Are your facts about "gun control" or banning gun ownership?

[gladius]

This picture was taken the same year that Germany confiscated all guns.

[tenni]

Countries with a total death rate by guns


most deaths by guns ranked highest to lowest


1/ El Salvador
9/ Mexico
10/ USA
20/ Switzerland
25/ France
27/ New Zealand
32/ Canada
34/ Israel
51/ Germany
53/ Australia
65/ Britain United Kingdom
73/ Japan
75/ Chile


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

* the information is not from the same year but the stats have been similar rankings for more than ten years. Not all countries release information on gun deaths each year but the US has consistently been in the top ten and has not been at formal civil war for over a century while Uganda, Guatamala, Cambodia, etc. have. The US is the only G8 country in the top twenty countries for gun deaths.

[darkeyes]

The following is historical fact. Form your own conclusions:

1911: Turkey establishes gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were rounded up and exterminated.

1929: Soviet Union establishes gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated, plus another 30 miliion that were starved to dealth in the Ukrane.

1935: China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were rounded up and esterminated.

1938: Germany established gun control. We know what happened to German citizens, European Jews, and the whole world afterwards.

1956: Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, between one to two million "educated" people were rounded up and exterminated.

1964: Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and exterminated.

1979: Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians were rounded up and extermined. Total dead in Uganda during this
time is estimate at two to three million.

Australia: Gun owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, destroyed by the government at a cost of approximately $400 million.
Homicides went up 3.2 percent
Armed robberies went up 44 percent. That's not 4.4 percent, it's 44.
In the State of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent

Historical fact also needs historical perspective. Gladys babes....many of the facts u give had very little to do with gun control, but the prevailing circumstances of the time in each country... and I suggest u look again at Uganda.. and think and check about what u have stated as fact (have thought about it which is why I raise it.. but haven't checked it...)... it actually makes u look a bit of a dick.. but.bland "facts" do nothing whatsoever to aid ur case... for every "fact" u provide, fact can be provided to argue quite the opposite...

[falcondfw]

Look at it this way people. They are CRIMINALS! Do you seriously think they are going to obey laws banning guns when they are already breaking laws?

[darkeyes]

Look at it this way people. They are CRIMINALS! Do you seriously think they are going to obey laws banning guns when they are already breaking laws?

..and so we make it easy for them?

[tenni]

Guns per capital ranked from most guns to least in 2007 stats


1/ USA
2/ Serbia
3/ Switzerland
6/ Saudi Arabla
7/ Iraq
10/ Sweden
13/ Canada
15/ Germany
22/ New Zealand
25/ Northern Ireland
42/ Australia
79/ Israel
88/ England & Wales
93/ Scotland
102/ China




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

[darkeyes]

Oops.. soz Gen n Gladys... bit of a mix up ther hey?

[gen11]

Tenni: There are over 2500 documented instances in the US from 2012 alone in which an armed citizen prevented or stopped a violent crime.

My opinion is that a firearm is a tool. When my hammer is out of reach, I'll pick up a vice-grip pliers to strike my chisel.

[tenni]

Tenni: There are over 2500 documented instances in the US from 2012 alone in which an armed citizen prevented or stopped a violent crime.

My opinion is that a firearm is a tool. When my hammer is out of reach, I'll pick up a vice-grip pliers to strike my chisel.

As far as your opinion that a gun is a tool, that is true. Interesting that I don't hear people in my country making this type of connection with hammers, guns, etc. It reads as brainwashing to me and a justification/rationalization by people who want their country to have increasing gun violence rather than merely factual.

As far as documented instances in which an armed citizen prevented a violent crime, it reads to me as a very violent culture rather than preventative. Historically, your country has been a very violent invasive culture. Which other countries track guns as preventative to violent crimes?

More than 500,000 people died from gun violence in Brazil between 1979 and 2003. Studies show a strong, inverse relationship between homicide rates and both economic development and economic equality.

Gender differences (of violence) are least marked for children. For the 15 to 29 age group, male rates (of violence) were nearly six times those for female rates; for the remaining age groups, male rates were from two to four times those for females.

[gladius]

Wasn't all this horseshit vented about by the Ameriphobic Tennis' other thread?

[Libby99nIL]

What does all this have to do with being bisexual??

[Tabu61]

Good question!.......What does this have to do with the bisexual community.....there are plenty of other sites to rant on about gun control.Forum: Main Forum

Discuss anything here. In keeping with the culture of our community, be polite always.

[gladius]

What does all this have to do with being bisexual??

It has plenty to do with being bi, Libby. Being bisexual doesn't resign one to being a cock monster or muff diver alone. We do have our private opinions, as well as our private lives, that do not actually always and forever pertain to sex.

[darkeyes]

Quite a lot.. many gay and bisexual people have had their lives ended by shooting... as a community, we are part of this world, and what goes on in it affects the lgbt just as it does any other group of people... we should never be so insular as to think what goes on in the big bad world is of no interest to us, neither should we show ourselves ignorant of it. We are first and foremost human beings.. what goes on around us affects us.. and if we are to be treated seriously as a group of people, we should show the world that we care for that world, for our fellow human beings and for life on this planet.. that we think a little more than about simply the bits we have between our legs and what and whom we can do with them .. fail to do that and those who would return us to the oblivion of the closet, the travails of repression and remove from us the right to be, to love and desire who we will, as they do, shall feel themselves well satisfied that we have proven ourselves as nothing but the perversions that they claim us to be, interested in nothing but the perversions that they claim of us and will have surrendered our right to be considered equal to them in this world, also our basic humanity and our right to be considered compassionate and.decent human beings... we are more than sex, more than our sexuality.. these are but a small part of us.. we are human beings who live on this earth.. that is why we debate issues such as this...

[Annika L]

What does all this have to do with being bisexual??

Good question!.......What does this have to do with the bisexual community...

What *doesn't* have to do with being bisexual? Are we not individuals in the world?

Countries with a total death rate by guns


most deaths by guns ranked highest to lowest

1/ El Salvador
9/ Mexico
10/ USA
20/ Switzerland
25/ France
27/ New Zealand
32/ Canada
34/ Israel
51/ Germany
53/ Australia
65/ Britain United Kingdom
73/ Japan
75/ Chile


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

* the information is not from the same year but the stats have been similar rankings for more than ten years. Not all countries release information on gun deaths each year but the US has consistently been in the top ten and has not been at formal civil war for over a century while Uganda, Guatamala, Cambodia, etc. have. The US is the only G8 country in the top twenty countries for gun deaths.

Hi tenni. I want to clarify this ordering...is this *per capita* gun-related deaths (#gun deaths / total population)? Or absolute number (#gun deaths)? Or percentage of deaths due to guns (#gun deaths / total #deaths)? Or some kind of deaths-to-guns ratio? Or what? Thanks.

I find this thread an interesting addition to tenni's.

But Gen? Is it really in your interest to point out that there was massive slaughter in Uganda *before* guns were controlled? Any clue about whether the number went up or down since then? (it almost couldn't have gone up, given the statistics you cite)

[tenni]

Hi Annika
My understanding that it is total gun related deaths per capita. Firearm related death rate per 100, 000 population in one year (but not necessarily the same year as other countries reported) The years were mostly between 2000-2010. (one was 1994 as the only info for that country). This includes all gun related deaths: homicide, suicide, unintentional, and undetermined death by guns.

[voltaire]

Gen's "facts " about gun control are what we professional historians call "ahistorical" which is an inelegant way of saying that one is comparing apples to oranges. The various nation states listed had very different forms of access to guns at the public level. Also he ignores the clear statement in the 2nd amendment that the right to bear arms was a right of the states in support of state militias. (in fairness to him, 5 justices of the us supreme court got this wrong as well).

[Long Duck Dong]

as I sit reading this thread..... my mind goes over the last few weeks of the new year in NZ.... one shooting so far, a freak accident with a air rifle and a riccoheting pellet ....
and yes the usual "ban guns" cries have started by the anti gun, pro peace advocates....... where there is silence, is the guy beaten to death ( 5 people arrested ), the stabbing of a man ( one arrested ) the killing of a woman with a axe ( 2 arrested ).......and then there is the cop, attacked by a group of 5 people and beaten, yet people are talking about how wrong the cop was and how he was so heavy handed cos he pulled his gun when he was confronted and attacked...... however mention the cop attacked 24 hours before that, by a teen with a bayonet, and most people have NO idea what you are talking about .

it leaves me shaking my head and questioning the reality of some people..... it reads almost as if its ok for people to be beaten or killed, as long as a gun was not involved.....

[falcondfw]

As far as your opinion that a gun is a tool, that is true. Interesting that I don't hear people in my country making this type of connection with hammers, guns, etc. It reads as brainwashing to me and a justification/rationalization by people who want their country to have increasing gun violence rather than merely factual.

As far as documented instances in which an armed citizen prevented a violent crime, it reads to me as a very violent culture rather than preventative. Historically, your country has been a very violent invasive culture. Which other countries track guns as preventative to violent crimes?

More than 500,000 people died from gun violence in Brazil between 1979 and 2003. Studies show a strong, inverse relationship between homicide rates and both economic development and economic equality.

Gender differences (of violence) are least marked for children. For the 15 to 29 age group, male rates (of violence) were nearly six times those for female rates; for the remaining age groups, male rates were from two to four times those for females.

And if a gunman broke into your home and was threatening your wife and kids, how would you defend them? Say "Oh pretty please, Mr. Gunman. Don't hurt them."?

[falcondfw]

Quite a lot.. many gay and bisexual people have had their lives ended by shooting... as a community, we are part of this world, and what goes on in it affects the lgbt just as it does any other group of people... we should never be so insular as to think what goes on in the big bad world is of no interest to us, neither should we show ourselves ignorant of it. We are first and foremost human beings.. what goes on around us affects us.. and if we are to be treated seriously as a group of people, we should show the world that we care for that world, for our fellow human beings and for life on this planet.. that we think a little more than about simply the bits we have between our legs and what and whom we can do with them .. fail to do that and those who would return us to the oblivion of the closet, the travails of repression and remove from us the right to be, to love and desire who we will, as they do, shall feel themselves well satisfied that we have proven ourselves as nothing but the perversions that they claim us to be, interested in nothing but the perversions that they claim of us and will have surrendered our right to be considered equal to them in this world, also our basic humanity and our right to be considered compassionate and.decent human beings... we are more than sex, more than our sexuality.. these are but a small part of us.. we are human beings who live on this earth.. that is why we debate issues such as this...

And many more have had their lives ended by stabbing or a car wreck. Should we ban knives and cars, as well?

[falcondfw]

Hi Annika
My understanding that it is total gun related deaths per capita. Firearm related death rate per 100, 000 population in one year (but not necessarily the same year as other countries reported) The years were mostly between 2000-2010. (one was 1994 as the only info for that country). This includes all gun related deaths: homicide, suicide, unintentional, and undetermined death by guns.

Well, then isn't that kinda like comparing apples to oranges? Populations in most countries rise from year to year. The rates of death by gun could go down if we were comparing the same years, because of a population increase. Or is this just more "let's find statistics that show America in a bad light and rip `em a new one."?

[gladius]

And many more have had their lives ended by stabbing or a car wreck. Should we ban knives and cars, as well?

Falcon, I don't think Fran was defending one form of weapon over another, as it pertained to her response. I do believe that she was stating that as a "community" the same feelings of violance are shared, as a community.

[falcondfw]

Falcon, I don't think Fran was defending one form of weapon over another, as it pertained to her response. I do believe that she was stating that as a "community" the same feelings of violance are shared, as a community.

I understand that. I am more referring to people's reactions to this whole issue. The gun didn't pull its own trigger. The same way the knife didn't stab someone by itself and the car didn't drive itself over people (aside from the Steven King book and movie Christine). Yet here people are, blaming the gun. If they are going to do that, then they should be consistent and blame the knife and the car and the fertilizer (Oklahoma City) and the Planes (9/11).
And yes, I realize that is ridiculous. I am doing it to make a point. If we are going to be ridiculous and blame the guns, we should be equally and consistently as ridiculous and blame the other things and ban them as well.

[tenni]

And if a gunman broke into your home and was threatening your wife and kids, how would you defend them? Say "Oh pretty please, Mr. Gunman. Don't hurt them."?

In Canada few B&E have a gun involved. There are some deaths due to B&E without guns but I suspect that the numbers are far fewer than the US. Gun deaths due to B&E are also not that much on the minds of most people in Canada. That would vary in communities where there are a lot of illegal guns though. Illegal use of guns seem to happen more frequently in gang shootings.

Well, then isn't that kinda like comparing apples to oranges? Populations in most countries rise from year to year. The rates of death by gun could go down if we were comparing the same years, because of a population increase. Or is this just more "let's find statistics that show America in a bad light and rip `em a new one."?

The use of per capita ie for each 100 000 people evens out the comparison from country to country regardless of their population.

Number of gun deaths may go up and down but this reporting with countries ranking as listed has been fairly consistent over ten years plus. The stats are not about the US but the world stats on gun deaths and guns in the country.

It happens that the US falls within higher placement in the issue of gun deaths. It happens that the US has the most guns per 100 000 people of the population compared to other countries. The US (88,800 per 100, 000 citizens) has nearly twice the numbers of gun owners than Switzerland (45,700 per 100, 000 citizens). The US (88,800 per 100,000 citizens) compared to second place Serbia (58,200 per 100,000 citizens) As some people may possess multiple weapons while others possess none, this number is not a representation of the percentage of people who possess guns in each country.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, then isn't that kinda like comparing apples to oranges? Populations in most countries rise from year to year. The rates of death by gun could go down if we were comparing the same years, because of a population increase. Or is this just more "let's find statistics that show America in a bad light and rip `em a new one."?

this is a breakdown by country that I did in another thread..... the figures are more up to date and accurate as most of the numbers used are more up to date numbers....
http://www.gunpolicy.org/ is the site used for all of the following numbers......
the numbers do not reflect the fact that some shootings can be multiple victim homicide / suicides committed by one person.... and therefore the stats only give a limited overview......



http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland
the swiss have 8 mill population, 3.8 mill guns estimated, the homicide rate non gun (53 ) is near equal to the homicide with a gun rate ( 50 approx ).... their non gun suicide rate ( 1313 ) is 5x the suicide by gun rate ( 239 )..... switzerland has very loose gun control laws, and a military service policy.....

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/new-zealand
NZ has 4.3 ( roughly ) mill people, 925,000 guns, the homicide rate non gun ( 134) is 11 times higher than homicide rate by gun ( 11 ) we have a non gun suicide rate ( 510 ) that is 10x our suicide by gun rate ( 47 ) and we have strict multi level gun control laws and no military service policy.....


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
the US has 313 mill people, 270 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 14,159 ) is just under 1.5x higher than the homicide rate by gun ( 9,146 ) a non gun suicide rate ( 32,559 ) that is near 2 x the gun suicide rate ( 17,002 ) the us has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom
the uk has 62 mill people, 4 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 724 ) is 40x higher than the homicide rate by gun ( 18 ) a non gun suicide rate ( 4,448 ) that is 41x higher than the gun suicide rate ( 101 ) the UK has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada
canada has 35 mill people, 9.9 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 610 ) is 3.5 times higher than the gun homicide rate by gun ( 173 ) a non gun suicide rate (3,611 ) that is 6 times higher than the gun suicide rate ( 586 ) canada has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy

[tenni]

"canada has 35 mill people, 9.9 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 610 ) is 3.5 times higher than the gun homicide rate by gun ( 173 ) a non gun suicide rate (3,611 ) that is 6 times higher than the gun suicide rate ( 586 ) canada has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy"

I suspect that the above 2009 /below 2011 may be slightly off topic but below shows how Canada's gun laws have made a different environment than the cuz'n below us..

Some of the stats above are inaccurate based on the most recent reports which are for 2011 and released in December 2012. The entire homicide deaths in 2011 was 598 which was a spike of 7% (44 homicides) from 2010(which was less than 2009). The homicide rate has been declining since the 1970. Gun homicides are down and knife homicides are up but up until 2011 declining.

Gun homicide rates in Canada have been in steady decline since the 1970's.

Overall in 2011, stabbings accounted for 35 per cent of homicides, firearms for 27 per cent, beatings for 22 per cent and strangulation for seven per cent.

Gang homicides increased steadily from the early 1990s until 2008, before declining in both 2009 and 2010.

Victims typically know their killer. Among solved homicides in 2011, almost half were committed by an acquaintance or friend, one-third by a family member and only 15 per cent by a stranger. (therefore less fear of home invasion murders than some posting on this site from the US.)

The rate of intimate partner homicides committed against females increased by 19 per cent in 2011 compared to 2010, the third increase in four years. The rate for male victims declined by almost half compared to 2010, hitting the lowest point since data collection began in 1961.

I believe that the one of the largest/shocking murders was an "honour killing" by drowning in a car of three females in 2011. Two daughters and a "first" wife killed by a man, his second wife(poly and their son..killing his sisters and the first wife of the man).

[Long Duck Dong]

"canada has 35 mill people, 9.9 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 610 ) is 3.5 times higher than the gun homicide rate by gun ( 173 ) a non gun suicide rate (3,611 ) that is 6 times higher than the gun suicide rate ( 586 ) canada has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy"

Some of the stats above are inaccurate based on the most recent reports which are for 2011 and released in December 2012. The entire homicide deaths in 2011 was 598 which was a spike of 7% from 2010(which was less than 2009). The homicide rate has been declining since the 1970. Gun homicides are down and knife homicides are up but up until 2011 declining. Gun homicide rates have been in steady decline since the 1970's.

Overall in 2011, stabbings accounted for 35 per cent of homicides, firearms for 27 per cent, beatings for 22 per cent and strangulation for seven per cent.

Gang homicides increased steadily from the early 1990s until 2008, before declining in both 2009 and 2010.

Victims typically know their killer. Among solved homicides in 2011, almost half were committed by an acquaintance or friend, one-third by a family member and only 15 per cent by a stranger. (therefore less fear of home invasion murders than some posting on this site from the US.)

The rate of intimate partner homicides committed against females increased by 19 per cent in 2011, the third increase in four years. The rate for male victims declined by almost half, hitting the lowest point since data collection began in 1961.

the numbers i used were for the year 2009, as the 2011 stats were not available for some aspects and countries, including canada.....


now what you post is interesting.....ans most of what you post, brings me to a news paper article......

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...nada-2011.html
Homicide rates in Canada rise 7%


Firearm deaths at lowest level in almost 50 years as killers favour the blade



An increase in stabbings accounted for virtually the entire increase in homicides in 2011," the federal data agency said.
It said there were 39 more stabbings in 2011 compared to 2010. Overall, stabbings accounted for 35 per cent of homicides, firearms for 27 per cent, beatings for 22 per cent and strangulation for seven per cent.
Overall, the homicide rate was 1.73 per 100,000 population in 2011, seven per cent higher than in 2010, Statistics Canada said.


almost forgot..... in terms of shocking and largest murders in canada...... robert pickton,.....